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Author Topic: Dominion: Ice Age  (Read 1568 times)

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ThetaSigma12

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #50 on: December 07, 2017, 06:03:29 pm »
+2

I'm just going to point out that you can (somewhat) control and track when you shuffle your deck. If you do it at the start of your turn there is strategic play in when to gain Venturer or Mountain Village, and even more strategy when comboed with Secret Passage or something.
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spiralstaircase

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #51 on: December 08, 2017, 06:51:49 am »
+3

Agreed - the control you have over shuffling would make it a more interesting mechanic to play with.

I'd also point out that if you do have a deck which draws itself often, then it's thematic that it should thaw out faster.  Industrialisation causing climate change!
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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #52 on: December 09, 2017, 08:28:02 am »
+3

I think per turn is fine. Slog decks don't really need a system to keep them from bloating because that's the point of them, and I don't like the idea that you could game the thawing with an empty deck and a bunch of Secret Passages.

Well, there's more than a fine line between "sleek engine that draws the deck" and "slog" in my opinion. I think the assumption that engines are basically always able to draw your deck is coming from the fact that many fds posters play almost exclusively 2P games, and holds no water when applied generally.

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #53 on: December 09, 2017, 12:32:40 pm »
+3

I think the assumption that engines are basically always able to draw your deck is coming from the fact that many fds posters play almost exclusively 2P games, and holds no water when applied generally.

I was thinking the other day, we could make a drinking game out of the number of posts on f.ds that use the phrase "if you're already drawing your deck". It's definitely taken for granted, which may also have something to do with the fact that doing so has gotten easier over time, as later expansions have better enabled it by focusing more on Engines.

I personally always enjoy a good Slog or Big Money game, if only because Engine now feels like the norm. Variety is the spice of life. I kinda hope as time goes on, we get a bit more of Slog/BM in the card pool, just so drawing your deck isn't a no-brainer.

Also, I'll save Awaclus the trouble: "something something, 2P is the only mode that matters" ;)
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Awaclus

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #54 on: December 10, 2017, 07:58:45 am »
0

which may also have something to do with the fact that doing so has gotten easier over time, as later expansions have better enabled it by focusing more on Engines.

No, we have better enabled it by getting better at the game.
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FemurLemur

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #55 on: December 10, 2017, 01:45:28 pm »
+2

which may also have something to do with the fact that doing so has gotten easier over time, as later expansions have better enabled it by focusing more on Engines.
No, we have better enabled it by getting better at the game.

Why not both? Hasn't Donald X stated that he's focused more on Engines than BM as time has moved on since they are more interesting?
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #56 on: December 10, 2017, 03:06:30 pm »
0

which may also have something to do with the fact that doing so has gotten easier over time, as later expansions have better enabled it by focusing more on Engines.
No, we have better enabled it by getting better at the game.

Why not both? Hasn't Donald X stated that he's focused more on Engines than BM as time has moved on since they are more interesting?

I dont believe so. Maybe Im misremembering.
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Gazbag

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #57 on: December 10, 2017, 03:33:25 pm »
0



Look everyone here's a new card! I made it extra big this time because there's only one. I did have some updates on some of the Ice token cards as well but I might have accidentally deleted them and have to mock them up again.
At first this was supposed to be an attack where you pay Coin tokens to make it better, but that was useless on it's own and broken with other Coin token cards. So now you just have to reach a threshold and it turns on the attack. I think this is a bit stronger than it looks as people generally underrate terminal Silvers (Bard and Tormentor spring to mind) and its bonus is quite a bit better than +$2, the Coin token really makes a difference.

I thought a picture would be easy to find for this but none of them had the right dimensions, I'm not particularly happy with this one but oh well.
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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #58 on: December 10, 2017, 07:14:54 pm »
+1

Uh, by the way, did you know about Snow Witch from Co0kieL0rd's and my Seasons expansion? It's based on the same Japanese folklore as your Snow Hag and just like it, is a cheaper Witch with delayed Cursing (though in a different way).



I guess great minds think alike :P

Gazbag

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #59 on: December 11, 2017, 09:52:16 am »
+1

Uh, by the way, did you know about Snow Witch from Co0kieL0rd's and my Seasons expansion? It's based on the same Japanese folklore as your Snow Hag and just like it, is a cheaper Witch with delayed Cursing (though in a different way).



I guess great minds think alike :P

Yeah I'd already designed and named Snow Hag, but I saw Snow Witch before I mocked it up. I made sure to use different art, even though yours clearly has the best art out there :). I definitely like yours better, although mine still needs lots more testing and tweaking so hopefully it'll end up in a similar place.
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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #60 on: December 11, 2017, 10:18:09 am »
+1

Uh, by the way, did you know about Snow Witch from Co0kieL0rd's and my Seasons expansion? It's based on the same Japanese folklore as your Snow Hag and just like it, is a cheaper Witch with delayed Cursing (though in a different way).

...

I guess great minds think alike :P

Yeah I'd already designed and named Snow Hag, but I saw Snow Witch before I mocked it up. I made sure to use different art, even though yours clearly has the best art out there :). I definitely like yours better, although mine still needs lots more testing and tweaking so hopefully it'll end up in a similar place.

I actually like the ice token mechanic a lot and it has the advantage you don't have to have that board. Moving the token each turn can be annoying. If you're just talking about art, I like yours, too. If I had known how dark the art we went for would look on a card, we might have decided for something else.

Hum... Considering Seasons is also based on turns instead of shuffles, perhaps ice tokens are fine as they are, after all. For cards like Snow Hag, you'd assume that getting the cards in the same shuffle wouldn't make much of a difference, either way, as then you'd already have to have a very bloated deck.

Gazbag

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #61 on: December 11, 2017, 12:04:38 pm »
+5

Uh, by the way, did you know about Snow Witch from Co0kieL0rd's and my Seasons expansion? It's based on the same Japanese folklore as your Snow Hag and just like it, is a cheaper Witch with delayed Cursing (though in a different way).

...

I guess great minds think alike :P

Yeah I'd already designed and named Snow Hag, but I saw Snow Witch before I mocked it up. I made sure to use different art, even though yours clearly has the best art out there :). I definitely like yours better, although mine still needs lots more testing and tweaking so hopefully it'll end up in a similar place.

I actually like the ice token mechanic a lot and it has the advantage you don't have to have that board. Moving the token each turn can be annoying. If you're just talking about art, I like yours, too. If I had known how dark the art we went for would look on a card, we might have decided for something else.

Hum... Considering Seasons is also based on turns instead of shuffles, perhaps ice tokens are fine as they are, after all. For cards like Snow Hag, you'd assume that getting the cards in the same shuffle wouldn't make much of a difference, either way, as then you'd already have to have a very bloated deck.

I was talking about card and art!

I meant to say a few words on the turns vs shuffles discussion actually. The main argument against turns is that if you don't shuffle while a card is frozen then it doesn't do anything, I don't think this is bad though - it can potentially make you reevaluate how good fast cycling/trashing is and change how you approach a board.

On the other hand, in order to have cards balanced properly if I change tokens to remove on shuffles then a lot of them will have to just have 1 or 2 tokens as missing 3 shuffles is really slow (especially in sloggier games) or have stronger effects to compensate. But what this means is that the cards would be stronger when you're going through your deck faster and if you're drawing deck every turn the the tokens might not matter at all, so it doesn't actually fix that problem in practice.

I like that having it be based on turns means the cards are weaker in stronger decks and stronger in weaker decks, because most cards are the other way around.
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loneXolf

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #62 on: December 12, 2017, 08:14:55 am »
+1

Snow Hag- looks pretty strong for a 4 cost, but sorta seems balanced.

Yeti- Looks balanced maybe a tad weak, decent knight clone.

Venturer- I really need to see this card in game with and without trashing to tell how strong it is. It could be broken, balanced, or maybe even bad. The cost of 2 could make some pretty broken 5/2 starts. Sentry, Venturer seems pretty good.

Rediscover- I am not sure if this card is different enough from expand to warrant it, seems better in a few ways as well. Not letting it gain victory cards would just make it bad.

Mountain Village- This card seems pretty bad if it's the only ice token card in a kingdom without +buys. The miss a deck cycle isn't that bad for a village but it forces you to buy it early, and you won't get too much out of the coin token effect without +buys.

Ice Cave- Isn't this just a woodcutter for 5? 1 ice token doesn't even guarantee that the victory card will miss one deck cycle.

Glacier- Seems pretty strong. Seems like a replacement duchy on turns you missed the province. However if you can get more than one of these out at once it could be too powerful, and you can just keep buying them.

Frozen Cache- I would say this is bad design, it's either 100% worse or better than buying a gold early and you won't buy it later in the game.

Frost Spirit- This card seems pretty weak to me, but I could be wrong. it's not benefiting buying power while not fully trashing cards. I would 100% buy a Spice Merchant over this early game.

Cold Storage- This card is probably too good since it can get duchies.

Citadel- Looks balanced to me, the 1 snow token doesn't look that impact full tho.

Overall I like the Ice Token idea, but not sure if it's interesting enough for card design.

Here is a random split pile ice token card idea I made on the spot.

Snowy mountain (Top of stack)-
Cost - 4
Type - Action
Effect - +2 Card +1 Action When you play this card set it aside and put two Ice tokens on it for each snowy mountain set aside.
Amount - 5

Avalanche (Bottom of stack)-
Cost - 5
Type - Action
Effect - +3 Coins Remove all Ice tokens from an a set aside card. If it the card had 4 or more Ice tokens, +1 Action.
Amount - 5

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #63 on: December 12, 2017, 09:51:44 am »
+1

Snowy mountain (Top of stack)-
Cost - 4
Type - Action
Effect - +2 Card +1 Action When you play this card set it aside and put two Ice tokens on it for each snowy mountain set aside.

I like the idea of an Ice Token card setting itself aside each play, but the split pile thing doesn't appeal to me.

Gazbag

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #64 on: December 12, 2017, 04:06:11 pm »
+3

Snowy mountain (Top of stack)-
Cost - 4
Type - Action
Effect - +2 Card +1 Action When you play this card set it aside and put two Ice tokens on it for each snowy mountain set aside.

I like the idea of an Ice Token card setting itself aside each play, but the split pile thing doesn't appeal to me.

I do have one in the file but it's action isn't particularly inspiring. I think Citadel might evolve into something using this mechanic though.
Thanks for the comments loneXolf, although  think some of your evaluations are way off :P. It's still good to know what is popular though so I'm taking everything on board.

Anyway here's some updates:

5 tokens means that if you get this turn 1 or 2 it'll miss the first 2 shuffles and also makes the Coin token slightly easier to trigger. I like that this is a village that you have to get earlier than you want, that makes it interesting to me but I'm a bit worried it won't be popular?


This was a bit too good. 6 tokens means this if you're player 1 and play this turn 3 the curse will enter your opponents deck on their turn 8. That seems more reasonable to me?

Venturer is scrapped for now because it's strange and doesn't seem popular, which isn't a winning combination.

Now for some new things- a few Coin token and off theme cards:


I like self scheming cards and Walled Village always missed the mark for me as the scheming village. $2 might not be enough so I'll have to try it at $3 if that's too good. Or make it so you have to pay for each Campsite individually perhaps, but that might need weird wording.


This seems like a well balanced simple thing, Pioneers are super-settlers right? It would probably be fine at $4, although a strong opening for sure. This seems like a nice on-gain ability that doesn't exist because overpay was in the only Coin token set (I assume).


One of those things that seemed simple in my head but was a bit of a nightmare to word on a card. Could this cost $2? The warning bar on the bottom of the art amuses me, so it's staying!


This is stronger then it looks, I promise! It's really quite flexible, although it's still not that strong maybe it should give +2 actions when you discard.


Reasonably sized Bandit repost because nobody talked about it yet.
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Jimmmmm

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #65 on: December 12, 2017, 05:41:28 pm »
+1


This is stronger then it looks, I promise! It's really quite flexible, although it's still not that strong maybe it should give +2 actions when you discard.

I actually think it looks very strong when you have Victory cards; Lab + Fugitive is a pretty good deal, with some flexibility to boot.
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Gazbag

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #66 on: December 12, 2017, 08:46:55 pm »
+4

I actually think it looks very strong when you have Victory cards; Lab + Fugitive is a pretty good deal, with some flexibility to boot.

Yeah the Victory is the key, without it it's a terrible Plaza thing.


I forgot about this one! This started out as a Coin token Salvager... that was outrageous so now it gives you a steady stream of tokens. Durations that stay out multiple turns are cool so that's great.
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trivialknot

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #67 on: December 12, 2017, 10:03:49 pm »
+2

The new cards are great.  I think it goes to show that if you can come up with the brilliant ice token mechanic, you can also come up with good cards that don't use it.

Mountain Village & Snow Hag - I like the changes.  My speculation, based on zero testing was that three ice tokens wasn't enough to weaken them, and I think upping the ice tokens makes them more balanced and interesting.

Campsite - Sounds like a very good village, competitive with Port or Worker's Village.  I don't think $2 or $3 makes a big difference.  Since the central concept is "a village that topdecks itself" rather than "village that makes you sacrifice $2", you could experiment with other conditions.  Like, what if it's a village that behaves just like Treasury.  Or maybe it topdecks itself only if you don't buy actions LOL.

Pioneer - I think this looks too strong to cost $4, especially with the on-gain bonus.  My main complaint about this is it seems a lot slower than Peddler, without being sufficiently different to justify it.

Sleigh - It's certainly very good in the early game, when most of your deck is copper.  And if you get 6+, it seems pretty strong, maybe on par with Herald.  I'm a bit worried that it would lead to a monolithic strategy--Herald wants to add terminal actions, but this card doesn't want you to add expensive cards.

Hunter - Funny thing about this is that you have to decide whether to discard an action or treasure before drawing 2 cards.  Looks fairly strong even with just the victory card part.

Barbarian - This doesn't look that strong, but here you say it's stronger than it looks.  Well color me surprised.  It looks worse than Butcher, but then Butcher is amazeballs, and Tragic Hero demonstrates that if you make a nerfed version of an amazing card it can come out pretty decent.  The attack could hurt, but opponents can see it coming a long ways, and can prepare for it by buying provinces.
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Accatitippi

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #68 on: December 13, 2017, 03:19:00 am »
+5

A possible solution to the once-per-shuffle problem is to add a Heirloom-like copper (or silver?) variant saying "When you play this, remove one ice token from all of your frozen cards, then if you removed the last ice token from any of them, put it in your discard pile".

The pros:
It doesn't need outside-card-text rules, or remembering to thaw at start of turn.
It has some cute interactions with stuff like Storyteller and Crown.
It's possibly more interesting, and gives you the ability to control your thawing rate.

The cons:
It can skip shuffles (but so can anything else)
It sort-of-breaks some cards in their current form (Snow Witch and Ice spirit, for example) and as they are now.
There are already 7 copper replacements.

But it's an interesting possibility.
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loneXolf

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #69 on: December 13, 2017, 03:50:16 am »
0

Ice tokens are a bit hard to judge without playing with them before.

Mountain village- The 5 ice tokens change seems to be focused on the coin ability giving it more self sustain and maybe to nerf buying multiple copies. Mountain village's bazaar effect seems most useful when spammed. However I can see 5 ice tokens making this card frustrating to buy when it's not early game.

Snow hag- Fair nerf. Still can't tell if a witch costing 4 is too good even with the 6 delayed turns for the curse.

Campsite- Seems like a more useful walled village in most cases. It's effect might make it too consistent.

Pioneer- Seems like a worse peddler, since you are limited to 7 copper(without gaining more) really makes this card not that spamable which is the best use of peddler. Making this compete with cards like market and bazaar which is really rough. The free coin token is nice for later turns and for on gain effects but is a overall weird choice for a on gain bonus for me.

Sleigh- This is such a strong early game card. Not a huge fan of the RNG factor. Seems a little bit similar to Chariot Race design except Sleigh works better with lower cost cards and is more controllable RNG. Sleight might be too good for 3.

Hunter- This card is all over the place for me. I need to see it in game, all of the discard sides seem a bit useful. Could be too strong or weak for 5. Turning any action into +2 actions is weird.

Barbarian- I think it's attack is too dependent on having other coin token gainers. 4 coin tokens is rough to get in one turn with just this card, and keeping 3 coin tokens turn to turn to trigger this attack seems weak.

Cargo Ship- Seems much slower and weaker than Glacier and looks weaker than remodel to me. Maybe I am missing something.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2017, 05:43:55 am by loneXolf »
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Accatitippi

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #70 on: December 13, 2017, 04:50:22 am »
0

Oh, and let me say that I really like Barbarian's concept, and Cargo Ship is also neat.
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Gazbag

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #71 on: December 13, 2017, 03:47:27 pm »
0

Well I have some free time so I guess I'll address a few things. Long post incoming!

Mountain village- The 5 ice tokens change seems to be focused on the coin ability giving it more self sustain and maybe to nerf buying multiple copies. Mountain village's bazaar effect seems most useful when spammed. However I can see 5 ice tokens making this card frustrating to buy when it's not early game.
So Mountain Village is a village instead of say some kind of payload card for a reason, the idea is that you have to buy them earlier than you would normally buy a village as this hopefully creates a unique and interesting play experience. The reward for having a frozen card then has the function of making them not so sad to buy later on too. With just 3 tokens it wasn't really delayed at all at the time you would usually consider buying a village so I upped the number of tokens to try and fix it. This also had the nice added effect of making the Coin token easier to get.

Pioneer- Seems like a worse peddler, since you are limited to 7 copper(without gaining more) really makes this card not that spamable which is the best use of peddler. Making this compete with cards like market and bazaar which is really rough. The free coin token is nice for later turns and for on gain effects but is a overall weird choice for a on gain bonus for me.
I mean there's only 10 in the pile y'know, getting 7 Pioneers seems rare. It's significantly better than Peddler until you trash Coppers - it's more like an Apothecary-lite, drawing the Coppers increases your handsize which is often important and increases cycling which is very important. It also removes Coppers from your deck so your other draw can pick up better cards. It's an early-mid game accelerator where as Peddler is a mid-late game payload card.

Sleigh- This is such a strong early game card. Not a huge fan of the RNG factor. Seems a little bit similar to Chariot Race design except Sleigh works better with lower cost cards and is more controllable RNG. Sleight might be too good for 3.
It's pretty much a worse Wishing Well as an opening, I don't really understand the RNG factor comment either. It seems worse than Wishing Well to me in general but I have been called Luckbag on numerous occasions, so maybe Wishing Well is worse for other people.

Barbarian- I think it's attack is too dependent on having other coin token gainers. 4 coin tokens is rough to get in one turn with just this card, and keeping 3 coin tokens turn to turn to trigger this attack seems weak.
The trick is that "+$1 take a Coin token" is decent anyway, probably a reasonable $3 cost. The attack is painful but can be hard to set up - kinda like Legionary.

Cargo Ship- Seems much slower and weaker than Glacier and looks weaker than remodel to me. Maybe I am missing something.
It has the magic words "trash a card" although I might try this at $4. I suspect that's too good in the opening though, maybe a bonus for trashing Coppers would be better.

Okay now onto trivalknot:

The new cards are great.  I think it goes to show that if you can come up with the brilliant ice token mechanic, you can also come up with good cards that don't use it.

Campsite - Sounds like a very good village, competitive with Port or Worker's Village.  I don't think $2 or $3 makes a big difference.  Since the central concept is "a village that topdecks itself" rather than "village that makes you sacrifice $2", you could experiment with other conditions.  Like, what if it's a village that behaves just like Treasury.  Or maybe it topdecks itself only if you don't buy actions LOL.
Thanks for the kind words  :)

Campsite is quite strong, but $2 is a real cost so it isn't an automatic decision, or maybe it is and I've been playing it wrong! It also rewards deck tracking but not in an annoying way in my opinion, which I enjoy but maybe other people don't? It's certainly got nothing on Minstrel or Port for sure though.

Pioneer - I think this looks too strong to cost $4, especially with the on-gain bonus.  My main complaint about this is it seems a lot slower than Peddler, without being sufficiently different to justify it.
Ah I meant $4 without the Coin token, I didn't make that clear but yeah I figured it would be on the high end of $4's - not Ironmonger level but still very good, that's why I put it at $5 with the Coin token thing. Hmmm it's certainly not as bad in that regard as Hunting Party is compared to Lab, but Hunting Party is miserable IRL so I'll have to think on it. I won't repeat myself about the Peddler comparison.

Sleigh - It's certainly very good in the early game, when most of your deck is copper.  And if you get 6+, it seems pretty strong, maybe on par with Herald.  I'm a bit worried that it would lead to a monolithic strategy--Herald wants to add terminal actions, but this card doesn't want you to add expensive cards.
At the end of the day it's still just a conditional Lab so it'll never be a (good) strategy by itself.

Hunter - Funny thing about this is that you have to decide whether to discard an action or treasure before drawing 2 cards.  Looks fairly strong even with just the victory card part.
I didn't think of that actually... would people like it more if the victory part was first? The victory part is where a lot of the strength comes from, it would be too similar to Shepherd without the other stuff though - I made this before Shepherd was released mind.

Barbarian - This doesn't look that strong, but here you say it's stronger than it looks.  Well color me surprised.  It looks worse than Butcher, but then Butcher is amazeballs, and Tragic Hero demonstrates that if you make a nerfed version of an amazing card it can come out pretty decent.  The attack could hurt, but opponents can see it coming a long ways, and can prepare for it by buying provinces.
Worse than the best $5 in dominion is a fine place to be :P. Tragic Hero is a really strong Gold gainer guys - comparing it to Margrave is a mistake (why am I derailing my own topic?) If I make my opponent buy Provinces prematurely then I'm very happy, Barbarian did his job!

Okay I got sidetracked at the end there, but thanks for the feedback!
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loneXolf

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #72 on: December 14, 2017, 02:08:00 am »
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I mean there's only 10 in the pile y'know, getting 7 Pioneers seems rare. It's significantly better than Peddler until you trash Coppers

Maybe it was more of a nitpick comment on the Pioneers. But my line of thought was that most of the time you would draw into copper(s) during the end of your turn limiting Pioneers spamability, pairing that with any amount of trashing and it could quickly turn into a card that you don't want many copies of. Which makes me think a vanilla peddler is better (Not counting the coin token effect).

It's pretty much a worse Wishing Well as an opening, I don't really understand the RNG factor comment either. It seems worse than Wishing Well to me in general but I have been called Luckbag on numerous occasions, so maybe Wishing Well is worse for other people.

Well wishing well has the same RNG factor of hitting a estate during it's first use which makes both of them way less impactful. But I do not see how Wishing Well is much better, Sleigh always has copper as a target and is much easier to build around later into the game. However I am assuming that Sleigh is a pretty decent card to spam which is where I am drawing most of it's power, which I might be wrong on.

It has the magic words "trash a card" although I might try this at $4. I suspect that's too good in the opening though, maybe a bonus for trashing Coppers would be better.

I don't think the strength of this card is in trashing starter cards. Having multiple of these out at once seems like the most ideal use of this card to me, which is why I compared it to glacier. The best normal target for this card seems to be estate like most other Remodel clones, however remodel itself gains you a 4 or lower costed card while cargo ship just gives you 2 coin tokens over two turns and most of the time they both trash coppers for nothing. But on the other hand, trashing high valued cards for cargo ship seems too slow for me unless you have a strong gainer. Even degenerate combos such as rats and fortress could be done better with remodel, apprentice, etc since they're not duration cards. Idk maybe I am just seeing this card under a bad light.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2017, 02:09:34 am by loneXolf »
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Gazbag

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #73 on: December 14, 2017, 05:30:14 pm »
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I mean there's only 10 in the pile y'know, getting 7 Pioneers seems rare. It's significantly better than Peddler until you trash Coppers

Maybe it was more of a nitpick comment on the Pioneers. But my line of thought was that most of the time you would draw into copper(s) during the end of your turn limiting Pioneers spamability, pairing that with any amount of trashing and it could quickly turn into a card that you don't want many copies of. Which makes me think a vanilla peddler is better (Not counting the coin token effect).

I don't want this to become a generic strategy discussion, but this is a terrible way to evaluate cards. Pioneer is better than Peddler in some situations and worse in others, more importantly though they have different roles in deckbuilding. The main problem I have with Pioneer is that it can take a while to resolve - especially if you trash your Coppers and it becomes a cantrip Chancellor, which can lead to multiple shuffles per turn.

It's pretty much a worse Wishing Well as an opening, I don't really understand the RNG factor comment either. It seems worse than Wishing Well to me in general but I have been called Luckbag on numerous occasions, so maybe Wishing Well is worse for other people.

Well wishing well has the same RNG factor of hitting a estate during it's first use which makes both of them way less impactful. But I do not see how Wishing Well is much better, Sleigh always has copper as a target and is much easier to build around later into the game. However I am assuming that Sleigh is a pretty decent card to spam which is where I am drawing most of it's power, which I might be wrong on.

You can wish for more than Copper with Wishing Well, the first Sleigh is just Wishing Well for Copper. The RNG isn't really any more than you're average card, perhaps it's a bit more in your face though. When you start chaining multiple Sleighs together the first few are very unlikely to trigger as you are likely to be trashed down if you're lining up so many Sleighs. I'm not saying it's a weak card but it seems very similar to Wishing Well to me - Wishing Well is very strong mind. My main disagreement with you was when you said it was such a good early game card.

It has the magic words "trash a card" although I might try this at $4. I suspect that's too good in the opening though, maybe a bonus for trashing Coppers would be better.

I don't think the strength of this card is in trashing starter cards. Having multiple of these out at once seems like the most ideal use of this card to me, which is why I compared it to glacier. The best normal target for this card seems to be estate like most other Remodel clones, however remodel itself gains you a 4 or lower costed card while cargo ship just gives you 2 coin tokens over two turns and most of the time they both trash coppers for nothing. But on the other hand, trashing high valued cards for cargo ship seems too slow for me unless you have a strong gainer. Even degenerate combos such as rats and fortress could be done better with remodel, apprentice, etc since they're not duration cards. Idk maybe I am just seeing this card under a bad light.

Trashing your starting cards is amazing, so yes that is where a lot of strength comes from, although this is very inefficient at it. I think I agree with you that this is a little tame in it's current form but it's not terrible, it would certainly be too good at $4, Coin tokens are really strong! This is more of a Salvager than a Remodel though, that's what it started out as at least. Also Remodel has to gain a card, so it can't trash Coppers for nothing. Hmm being weaker than Apprentice is a place most cards want to be, I think.
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