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Author Topic: Dominion: Ice Age  (Read 9025 times)

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Holunder9

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #125 on: January 29, 2018, 07:43:45 am »
+1

Wayfinder- Scout clones! Sure wayfinder could be useful later in the game if you have a lot of victory cards in a slim deck or maybe against curse attackers. But I just don't see this card being bought in most kingdoms. Sure it looks better than scout but it doesn't look fix it's core problems.
I don't think that Scout had any "core problems". The problem was rather that the idea was put onto a weak card. On Patrol it works fine. Chancellor is a similar idea which is perfectly fine but only worked once DXV stuck it onto a Woodcutter (with some little extra tricks).
About Wayfinder, it doesn't only Scout but also termporarily sets aside. Getting green and purple out of your deck for some time can be extremly good.
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loneXolf

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #126 on: January 29, 2018, 08:09:18 am »
0

Well I mean scout was removed from the second edition. The main problem of scout for me is that's it's a niche support card. Not many strategies want a lot of victory cards early,that with the reveal cards from the top of your deck randomness, and not benefiting directly off drawing victory cards most of the time besides the basic you won't draw it next and you got a pretty weak card. I would put wayfinder a bit above scout, since you would only really lose the immediate scout and synergies from drawing victory cards. Is buying wayfinder early worth it to try to semi-trash your starting estates, or is this card meant to be bought for limboing victory cards later in the game? Neither seem that strong or consistent to me, but it's a scout clone and maybe I am underestimating 3 ice tokens. 
« Last Edit: January 29, 2018, 08:11:10 am by loneXolf »
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Holunder9

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #127 on: January 29, 2018, 08:27:43 am »
0

I don't deny that Scout is extremly bad. But the stuff that Scout does besides the +1 Action, i.e. scouting, is good. In my opinion Patrol is one of the best $5 Smithy variants and I guess that Scout would have been OK as a cantrip.

Wayfinder is a delayed cantrip Scout that sets the scouted cards aside. My limited playing experience with Crypt and Archive tells me that keeping bad cards out of your deck for some turns can be quite good and unlike those 2 cards Wayfinder is cheap.
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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #128 on: January 29, 2018, 09:00:51 am »
0

Well I mean scout was removed from the second edition. The main problem of scout for me is that's it's a niche support card. Not many strategies want a lot of victory cards early,that with the reveal cards from the top of your deck randomness, and not benefiting directly off drawing victory cards most of the time besides the basic you won't draw it next and you got a pretty weak card. I would put wayfinder a bit above scout, since you would only really lose the immediate scout and synergies from drawing victory cards. Is buying wayfinder early worth it to try to semi-trash your starting estates, or is this card meant to be bought for limboing victory cards later in the game? Neither seem that strong or consistent to me, but it's a scout clone and maybe I am underestimating 3 ice tokens. 

The idea behind Scout was precisely to make earlier greening feasible, that is, allow you to spend less time on building to make sure your deck runs smoothly. It just sucked because what it did besides its ability was so bad that the ability alone couldn't make up for it.

From my experience with Frost Spirit, which is extremely strong (but enjoyable), I think putting ice tokens on the cards goes far beyond what Scout does or should do. It's pretty much a trasher now. Sure, the cards come back after a while, but you also don't lose the VP on them.

loneXolf

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #129 on: January 29, 2018, 11:23:03 am »
0

Well I mean scout was removed from the second edition. The main problem of scout for me is that's it's a niche support card. Not many strategies want a lot of victory cards early,that with the reveal cards from the top of your deck randomness, and not benefiting directly off drawing victory cards most of the time besides the basic you won't draw it next and you got a pretty weak card. I would put wayfinder a bit above scout, since you would only really lose the immediate scout and synergies from drawing victory cards. Is buying wayfinder early worth it to try to semi-trash your starting estates, or is this card meant to be bought for limboing victory cards later in the game? Neither seem that strong or consistent to me, but it's a scout clone and maybe I am underestimating 3 ice tokens. 

The idea behind Scout was precisely to make earlier greening feasible, that is, allow you to spend less time on building to make sure your deck runs smoothly. It just sucked because what it did besides its ability was so bad that the ability alone couldn't make up for it.

From my experience with Frost Spirit, which is extremely strong (but enjoyable), I think putting ice tokens on the cards goes far beyond what Scout does or should do. It's pretty much a trasher now. Sure, the cards come back after a while, but you also don't lose the VP on them.

Cantrip Frost Spirit is much more spamable and consistent looking then Wayfinder and also think it gave more ice tokens. 3 Ice tokens doesn't look that impressive to me for "trashing" estates early. Wayfinder does look like it could be strong for limboing duchies and/or provinces later in the game. But if it's late game where you're looking to buy provinces, I don't think wayfinder would be that impactful since the game is ending soon already. Overall, I think wayfinder has the same core problem as scout, while it does help cycling victory cards it doesn't do much else. Sure it being a cantrip and limboing victory cards makes it much more buyable then scout, but I wouldn't call it that strong of a card. But like I said earlier maybe I am underestimating 3 ice tokens.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2018, 11:27:43 am by loneXolf »
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Holunder9

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #130 on: January 30, 2018, 05:53:31 am »
+2

Overall, I think wayfinder has the same core problem as scout, while it does help cycling victory cards it doesn't do much else.
That's like saying that Island doesn't do much else besides providing 2 VPs.

If you played Patrol and scouted 1 Victory card the card has become a Hunting Grounds. Pretty good for a $5.

Let's stay with this example of scouting 1.
Wayfinder does something beyond drawing just that 1 Victory card (which would already be good in itself, it is a step from cantrip to Caravan), it sets the green aside for some turns. This is like drawing one more card the next time(s) you shuffle which is why I mentioned Archive above.

So you can read Wayfinder as delayed virtual extra draw on a cantrip. Perhaps it is not as good or consistent as other non-terminal draw for $4 like Caravan or Advisor but I doubt that it is bad.
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loneXolf

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #131 on: February 01, 2018, 09:33:24 pm »
0

Overall, I think wayfinder has the same core problem as scout, while it does help cycling victory cards it doesn't do much else.
That's like saying that Island doesn't do much else besides providing 2 VPs.

If you played Patrol and scouted 1 Victory card the card has become a Hunting Grounds. Pretty good for a $5.

Let's stay with this example of scouting 1.
Wayfinder does something beyond drawing just that 1 Victory card (which would already be good in itself, it is a step from cantrip to Caravan), it sets the green aside for some turns. This is like drawing one more card the next time(s) you shuffle which is why I mentioned Archive above.

So you can read Wayfinder as delayed virtual extra draw on a cantrip. Perhaps it is not as good or consistent as other non-terminal draw for $4 like Caravan or Advisor but I doubt that it is bad.

I won't compare island or patrol so directly with scout and wayfinder, since they have more value without the the victory card interactions. Sure drawing a victory card with wayfinder is better then caravan most of the time, but you just don't want to draw victory cards with your caravans do you? Caravan is more of a draw support/spam card then wayfinder is, but wayfinder seems to help with cycling victory cards and temporarily thinning your deck of victory cards and curses. Overall, I think wayfinder is a niche card. But I could be underestimating it.

Holunder9

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #132 on: February 02, 2018, 03:20:17 am »
0

Overall, I think wayfinder has the same core problem as scout, while it does help cycling victory cards it doesn't do much else.
That's like saying that Island doesn't do much else besides providing 2 VPs.

If you played Patrol and scouted 1 Victory card the card has become a Hunting Grounds. Pretty good for a $5.

Let's stay with this example of scouting 1.
Wayfinder does something beyond drawing just that 1 Victory card (which would already be good in itself, it is a step from cantrip to Caravan), it sets the green aside for some turns. This is like drawing one more card the next time(s) you shuffle which is why I mentioned Archive above.

So you can read Wayfinder as delayed virtual extra draw on a cantrip. Perhaps it is not as good or consistent as other non-terminal draw for $4 like Caravan or Advisor but I doubt that it is bad.
I won't compare island or patrol so directly with scout and wayfinder, since they have more value without the the victory card interactions.
While the 2VPs of Island are anything but irrelevant you can easily imagine a Colony Kingdom in which you open with Island in order to thin, not to increase the VP spread.

s. Sure drawing a victory card with wayfinder is better then caravan most of the time, but you just don't want to draw victory cards with your caravans do you?
Drawing a Victory card with Wayfinder and setting it aside for some turns is usually better than drawing anything with Caravan.
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Gazbag

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #133 on: February 02, 2018, 01:06:23 pm »
0

Just being a cantrip is enough to eliminate the problem of Scout, because it means Wayfinder isn't a stop card and so will never be bad for your deck like Scout can. I think Wayfinder is a fine card, it's just a case of whether it's different/interesting enough to have a spot in the set.

I also realised Wayfinder sucks with Nobles and friends, oh well. Easy to change the wording to fix that.
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Gazbag

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #134 on: February 16, 2018, 01:57:41 pm »
+1

I have a few potential updates, I'd be interested to see what people think!

Cargo Ship:

I like Cargo Ship, but it was a little slow. Now it gives a Coin token straight away, I'm not sure why I never thought of this change before... this change means it only stays out for 1 turn when it trashes Estates which makes it miss shuffles much less often early on.

Glacier:

This is pretty much exactly the same card, but hopefully it feels more coherent to people now.

Rediscover:

Original Rediscover was fun to read, but I wasn't thrilled will the gameplay and setting aside Provinces with it was strong. Now it's a Remodel that is good at trashing itself, but I felt it needed something more to be worth $5 so it can gain a gold. Any suggestions on this one, I don't think it's quite there yet? I don't know whether this really wants to cost $6 or whether that makes it too easy?

Frontier:

A bonus fresh card! Is this stupid? Does it suck? Is it broken? I have no idea!
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Holunder9

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #135 on: February 17, 2018, 11:59:14 am »
+1

They all look good and Frontier is the one I like most (not because it is necessarily balanced). It is bonkers in Shepherd games (buy two Estates via the extra Buy, gain two Shepherds) and is obviously good whenever you want Estates, i.e. with Inheritance, Silk Road and Garden. Otherwise it seems weak as you need decent sifting / trashing to make the "$5 Action with some junk for $2" work (Forum comes to mind). Seems highly Kingdom-dependent but very interesting.

The mere Hireling-esque permanent extra Buy is probably worth $4 or $5. Of course if there is no extra Buy in the Kingdom and you want to play an engine you don't mind how much you pay for an extra Buy.

IMO the 2VPs of the old Glacier was better than the new Copper version.
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Chappy7

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #136 on: February 17, 2018, 01:58:24 pm »
+1


IMO the 2VPs of the old Glacier was better than the new Copper version.

Yes, especially given the theme of land=vp.  I like the idea of a card called glacier being a vp card.  Maybe even a card that has a variable value
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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #137 on: February 17, 2018, 03:53:24 pm »
+1

You can blame me for the new Glacier. I nagged about the delayed VP gaining and the consistent token stream being two interesting concepts that shouldn't be combined because that made each shine less. I agree that Glacier as a card name suits a VP card better, but that isn't necessarily the same discussion.

Gazbag

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #138 on: February 17, 2018, 05:03:39 pm »
0

You can blame me for the new Glacier. I nagged about the delayed VP gaining and the consistent token stream being two interesting concepts that shouldn't be combined because that made each shine less. I agree that Glacier as a card name suits a VP card better, but that isn't necessarily the same discussion.

Nah blame me for listening  :P

The idea with Frontier was that you can play a few and then use the buys to get like 3 Estates and million $5's.
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loneXolf

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #139 on: February 18, 2018, 03:26:38 pm »
0

Cargo Ship- I like the change, however still think coin token effect looks awkward. For reasons, I stated in past comments.

Glacier- This new glacier just seems like a downgrade, 4 delayed coin tokens isn't worth it at 6 to me and the glacier card itself only has value if there is a remodel clone in the kingdom. This could maybe cost 5???

Rediscover- Weird card, I see this jack of all trades type of card you're going for and I like the self-synergy. It's cost of 5 gives me a bit of OCD since you would rarely gain 7 costs with this. Is the 2 ice tokens really needed, it seems to be just there to have ice tokens so maybe just 1 or 0 could work? Also what if you got +2 actions for trashing it instead of +2 cards? Since it looks to need muit-action support for multiple copies.

Frontier- Having two frontiers out at once seems nuts to me. If both/all players go for this card I can really see quick 3 supply pile games happening. Looks like it can be pretty strong, but seems to need testing to evaluate a strength level.


pacovf

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #140 on: February 18, 2018, 10:08:00 pm »
0

The new glacier could cost 4$ just fine. Itís a mix between Treasury and Baker for four turns, then becomes a copper. It just canít cost 5$, even less so 6$. At 4$, it allows you to convert money into coin tokens, but you really only want that if you have a lot of buys, a way to get rid of glaciers, and you still need to wait four turns for the conversion to happen. It would be fine. Borderline too good in the presence of TfB, but that deck would take a while to setup anyway, so thatís fine too.
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Gazbag

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #141 on: February 19, 2018, 07:10:44 pm »
0

The new glacier could cost 4$ just fine. Itís a mix between Treasury and Baker for four turns, then becomes a copper. It just canít cost 5$, even less so 6$. At 4$, it allows you to convert money into coin tokens, but you really only want that if you have a lot of buys, a way to get rid of glaciers, and you still need to wait four turns for the conversion to happen. It would be fine. Borderline too good in the presence of TfB, but that deck would take a while to setup anyway, so thatís fine too.

I'm not sure you should be able to open with it, Ice tokens are a little sensitive to opening turns because you generally shuffle on turn 5 and you have to balance them around that (actually the main reason is this set is already a little $4 flooded). If it proves too weak at $6 then the answer would be to increase the number of tokens and/or to put +1 Buy on the top to add some self-synergy there and a general reason to hold onto a Glacier.
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Gazbag

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #142 on: March 04, 2018, 12:13:09 pm »
0

I felt like trying to make a Throne Room for this set, most sets seem to have Throne Rooms these days. What's a royal icy thing? An ice queen, cool here's an ice queen:



I was thinking that a Throne Room that does something else as well as throne would be sweet kinda like Procession and Disciple, we can have that experience with the tokens from Adventures but things can get confusing pretty easily when you start throning thrones. So I figured to stop things from getting too crazy it could give you something nice when you discard it from play and then hey Coin tokens seem like a perfect fit for that kind of thing so there we go. A throne that gives you free Coin tokens seem a bit good even at $5 so it also freezes the throned action and then because Ice Queening an Ice Queen means the 2nd doesn't give any Coins maybe I can get away with this giving 2 Coins.  The whole variable cost thing might just be a dud idea and probably gets messed up by cost reduction too so perhaps a non-variable number would be more sensible.
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loneXolf

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #143 on: March 05, 2018, 01:56:19 am »
0

Ice Queen - I am not really a fan of the variable ice token since it tries to push you to use it with cheaper actions. But I can see why you did it since a static ice token number doesn't look that great on this card to me. Also does this card not work well with Duration cards or am misinterpreting it?

Random Bad Variation-
Name - Ice Queen
Type - Action
Cost - 5
Effect - You may play an action card from your hand twice. When the Action would be discarded instead set it and this card aside with an Ice token on it for each Coin it costs.  ______ While this card is set aside by it's own effect, During your buy phase cards with the same name as the attached Action card cost 2 Coin less, but not less than 0 coins.

Holunder9

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #144 on: March 09, 2018, 01:44:27 am »
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I think that Ice Queen is most of the times weaker than Throne Room.
Its best use is probably to turn $2 cantrips into splitters (due to the throning) and 2 turn auto-Bakers.
But I doubt that having an Ironmonger out of your deck for 4 turns or a Torturer set aside for 5 turns is worth 2 Coin tokens.

By the way Gazbag, how do you intend Ice tokens to work with Reserve cards? Are they frozen before they land on the Tavern mat or the other way around?
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Gazbag

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #145 on: March 09, 2018, 03:58:56 am »
0

I think that Ice Queen is most of the times weaker than Throne Room.
Its best use is probably to turn $2 cantrips into splitters (due to the throning) and 2 turn auto-Bakers.
But I doubt that having an Ironmonger out of your deck for 4 turns or a Torturer set aside for 5 turns is worth 2 Coin tokens.

By the way Gazbag, how do you intend Ice tokens to work with Reserve cards? Are they frozen before they land on the Tavern mat or the other way around?

Ya I don't like it so much now, I'll think of something else. Reserves would go to the tavern and the Ice Queen would lose track, like Procession.
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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #146 on: March 10, 2018, 04:13:08 pm »
0

How about having Ice Queen be a Throne Room that can King's Court instead at the cost of freezing the card? Although probably that could just as well be trashing, maybe? But if trashing would be too weak, freezing seems like an ideal way to make up for it. Like:

Quote
Ice Queen, 5$, Action
You may play an Action card from your hand twice. You may set it aside with 3 Ice tokens on iit to play it a third time.

Gazbag

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #147 on: March 11, 2018, 07:21:56 pm »
0

How about having Ice Queen be a Throne Room that can King's Court instead at the cost of freezing the card? Although probably that could just as well be trashing, maybe? But if trashing would be too weak, freezing seems like an ideal way to make up for it. Like:

Quote
Ice Queen, 5$, Action
You may play an Action card from your hand twice. You may set it aside with 3 Ice tokens on iit to play it a third time.

I did briefly think about some kind of icy kings court but I thought I'd try something different instead. To be honest I was kind of ill when I came up with Ice Queen, I might just scrap it.
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Jack Rudd

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #148 on: March 12, 2018, 08:43:00 am »
0

Ice Queening a Hireling looks as if it could potentially be strong.
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Gazbag

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #149 on: March 13, 2018, 03:51:50 pm »
0

So I was thinking that this set really could do with 1 more mechanic to round it out if it wants to be a large expansion. I was trying out States but I feel like having a million cards with all these States flying around isn't ideal, so I think there's only really a place for like 3-4 State cards. Reserves are popular and kinda fit with the delayed theme of Ice and Coin tokens too so I thought I'd try some reserves.

Here's some existing cards tweaked to be reserves, some are slight tweaks and others are basically entirely new cards just filling the same spot in the set.

Mountain Outpost

As a duration this was a little weak, but it seemed nice after adding a when-gain chancellor effect. This reserve version doesn't have room for the chancellor thing but it has the benefit of being a reserve so it could be good enough still.  Do you prefer this or the duration version?

Igloo

I was never really happy with the wording of Igloo but this reserve version has no issues. Setting aside non-ice token cards isn't ideal in a set full of ice token cards but the cards won't be set aside for long so this isn't too bad. There was a suggestion that this was strong as a duration and this reserve version is even stronger, but it's a terminal Silver, I mean they have to be strong to be worth buying.

Outrider

Outrider was kinda poop so this is basically strictly better, I still find the wildernesses compelling. We don't have a +buy on reserve and this lets you stock them up to trigger the wilderness flip so it seems like a fitting upgrade to me. Maybe it's a little strong now and can lose the Survivors effect.

Sleigh

Sleigh had bad wording and didn't seem well received to begin with so it's been a bit of a placeholder for a while now. This is supposed to be a half-lab basically, which seems reasonable to me. I think the wording makes that work? It's kind of a shame that this can't have simpler wording, or maybe it can?

Rediscover

Still a remodel variant, this might be a bit too powerful? It can't trash Estates but it's still basically adding $2's worth of value to your deck as a cantrip, it could work at $6, which is fine because there's room at $6 and there aren't any $6 reserves (Teacher doesn't count  :P) lowering the increase to +$1 and letting this trash Coppers makes it too similar to Upgrade for me. Or maybe it's actually fine at $5?
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