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Author Topic: Dominion: Ice Age  (Read 6450 times)

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Gazbag

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #100 on: January 08, 2018, 08:14:12 pm »
+1

Isn't the new Hunter just a more complicated, worse Plaza?

Yes as I already pointed out:

it's actually just really similar to Plaza.

Do you like the core idea of a village that can only play another card? The other stuff is kinda placeholder at the moment.

Sorry for missing out on that. I wouldn't have assumed you'd go for it if you had been aware of the similarity, as it is a lot worse at a price point which is only marginally cheaper (and Donald X often stated he'd like several of the 4$ Villages to cost 3$ if it wasn't about "strictly better stuff") as well as being too complicated.

No worries man, I usually just let it slide when people repeat something I said because it usually means they agree with me. I was in a pretty sour mood when I made that post so I hope it didn't seem rude or anything.

I did write a long ranting post about your opinion on Coin tokens but it was a bit much, so I'll just say I think Cargo Ship, Seer, Barbarian and to some extent Cabin all do new/interesting enough things with Coin tokens to justify their presence in this expansion and then if they're in the expansion anyway they can be used for balance reasons or just to spice up a few cards. Sort of like how Cobbler doesn't justify the Nights, but in the context of a set already using Nights it's a totally reasonable card.

Also I think you're implying that Cultist is balanced? Errrr...

I think what to do with Hunter is to make it a $2 bad village or to make it a $4 thing that is sometimes village or sometimes non-terminal. Having it cost $3 makes it tricky to balance relative to village/other $4 vilages.

Also the first ever play of Spyglass resulted in a Gold gain, ha! And people told me it was weak!
« Last Edit: January 08, 2018, 08:28:05 pm by Gazbag »
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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #101 on: January 08, 2018, 08:35:15 pm »
+1

Isn't the new Hunter just a more complicated, worse Plaza?

Yes as I already pointed out:

it's actually just really similar to Plaza.

Do you like the core idea of a village that can only play another card? The other stuff is kinda placeholder at the moment.

Sorry for missing out on that. I wouldn't have assumed you'd go for it if you had been aware of the similarity, as it is a lot worse at a price point which is only marginally cheaper (and Donald X often stated he'd like several of the 4$ Villages to cost 3$ if it wasn't about "strictly better stuff") as well as being too complicated.

No worries man, I usually just let it slide when people repeat something I said because it usually means they agree with me. I was in a pretty sour mood when I made that post so I hope it didn't seem rude or anything.

I did write a long ranting post about your opinion on Coin tokens but it was a bit much, so I'll just say I think Cargo Ship, Seer, Barbarian and to some extent Cabin all do new/interesting enough things with Coin tokens to justify their presence in this expansion and then if they're in the expansion anyway they can be used for balance reasons or just to spice up a few cards. Sort of like how Cobbler doesn't justify the Nights, but in the context of a set already using Nights it's a totally reasonable card.

Also I think you're implying that Cultist is balanced? Errrr...

I think what to do with Hunter is to make it a $2 bad village or to make it a $4 thing that is sometimes village or sometimes non-terminal. Having it cost $3 makes it tricky to balance relative to village/other $4 vilages.

No, Cultist isn't balanced. I just meant to imply that terminal draw is a good thing to put conditional Action card playing on. But we already have two cards that do this, so maybe it's not as great.

I see your point with Cobbler and the Night cards. It's not even like I dislike the coin token mechanic, the ice tokens are just more interesting and unique.

Gazbag

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #102 on: January 10, 2018, 01:24:03 pm »
+3

No, Cultist isn't balanced. I just meant to imply that terminal draw is a good thing to put conditional Action card playing on. But we already have two cards that do this, so maybe it's not as great.

I see your point with Cobbler and the Night cards. It's not even like I dislike the coin token mechanic, the ice tokens are just more interesting and unique.

The quote block was getting a bit big, so I cut it out.

Yes I see what you're saying about Cultist now, I misread that at first. I guess Saunavanto is also doing a similar thing, so maybe it's just an idea that leads to busted things. Although I think getting rid of the trashing ability of Sauna would make it less ridiculous - Saunavanto is just doing too much at once and the split pile mechanic kind of just compounds that. I also think Cultist without the attack could be a reasonable $4 maybe.

Anyway here's a new new Hunter:


I think maybe making it cost $5 like the game is actually good, because with it being a $3 I feel like the deck would kind of build itself if the game was something worth doing, if that makes sense. So this is Fugitive or a Lost City if you have the game, seems reasonable to me? Fugitive is obvs weak for $5, but not useless and the ceiling of Lost City is totally insane or anything and having to line up and balance $5's 1:1 isn't trivial.
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loneXolf

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #103 on: January 10, 2018, 01:51:59 pm »
+1

Hunter- It seems sorta hard to build an engine with the lost city part of this card if the Game card isn't a good terminal. Maybe making the game cost 3 or 4 is better, but maybe that would make it too easy to proc? I don't know.

Gazbag

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #104 on: January 10, 2018, 06:02:27 pm »
0

Hunter- It seems sorta hard to build an engine with the lost city part of this card if the Game card isn't a good terminal. Maybe making the game cost 3 or 4 is better, but maybe that would make it too easy to proc? I don't know.

I think this being on the weaker or more situational side of things isn't too bad because it's always going to add another $5 action to the table. The upside of a Lost City is really good too so I'm fairly certain it'll be powerful a reasonable amount of the time. I hope trying to balance these with the Game card leads to interesting deck building decisions.
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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #105 on: January 10, 2018, 06:08:05 pm »
+1

Personally, I like the new new Hunter. Not only is it different to the cards I named (and Saunavanto, which I forgot), it also looks balanced. And I also like that, unlike a Cultist variant, it doesn't suck if the game card is terminal. I also find the "adds a regular 5$" atgument convincing.

Gazbag

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #106 on: January 11, 2018, 04:38:18 pm »
0

Personally, I like the new new Hunter. Not only is it different to the cards I named (and Saunavanto, which I forgot), it also looks balanced. And I also like that, unlike a Cultist variant, it doesn't suck if the game card is terminal. I also find the "adds a regular 5$" atgument convincing.

Yeah, I guess the worst case is something like Mint as the Game or just one of the weak things like Mandarin. Have to test at some point, it seems promising though!
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Gazbag

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #107 on: January 14, 2018, 12:37:40 pm »
0

2 new cards trying to incorporate States. Seer was pretty fun in the 1 game I played with it, so why not try other things? Also if this set wants to be big it could do with 1 more mechanic to explore and States are things to put tokens on so seems like a decent option?

Outrider/Bountiful Wilderness


A non-terminal Survivors with +1 Buy. Survivalist would be a cute name thinking about it. A weakish card, but it has utility. If you have enough spare buys then you find a Bountiful Wilderness...



If you don't use all of your buys you get a Coin token, so hopefully you can use your buys better next turn! I think these will need a bit of tweaking, maybe 4 buys on Outrider is too many. I'm also prone to being an idiot, as we saw with the first new Hunter being a terrible Plaza, so if this is obviously terrible please be as harsh as you like.

Signalman/Beacons


This is a bit more like Seer where you start off the game in a State and tokens track things... Beacons is friendly though, where Avalanche is nasty. Also "each player takes a Beacons" great wording.



Beacons gives you a free Moat, but if you want to keep up the defences you'll have to get a Signalman or two. Also each beacon only defends one attack, this is so that attacks aren't completely useless in Signalman games. Although Lighthouse and Guardian kinda make attacks useless a lot of the time... Signalman does other things with Beacons so it isn't useless in games with no attacks. You don't have to remove tokens for the coin effect of Signalman, so it could potentially be good payload later in the game. Perhaps the +$1 you get for putting a token on Beacons could instead be take a Coin token. Hmmm, what do people think?
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loneXolf

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #108 on: January 14, 2018, 01:33:47 pm »
0

Outrider- This just seems like a non-attack spy that gives you a buy instead of a card. While milling two cards is much better than one it can still be awkward if you get a copper/dead card with a high value one. Also the card only nets a buy which doesn't make it that spamable to trigger Bountiful Wilderness. Maybe removing the spy effect for +1 coin would be better but then it might be too similar to Candlestick Maker.

Bountiful Wilderness-...Doesn't seem to work that well Outrider. I can see this card being pretty powerful with some other +buy cards. Market, Druid, Squire, Forager, Counterfeit, Bridge Troll to name a few, on the top of my head.

Signalman/Beacons- I am not a big fan of pirate ship clones. It's a bit faster than Miser since it starts with a coin token, Also giving a coin isn't that much worse than "trashing a copper". Also in a two player game I can see this really killing most attacks later in the game if you can make a decent engine with this, which probably isn't a big deal.
« Last Edit: January 14, 2018, 01:37:50 pm by loneXolf »
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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #109 on: January 14, 2018, 06:56:08 pm »
+1

Signalman seems too much better than Pirate Ship, to be honest. It starts at one token, gives +1$ even when you add one, has no risk of whiffing, can use its tokens for other benefits and costs less. The Treasure trashing on PS makes sure it isn't strictly worse, but I would argue that it actually is even another disadvantage most of the time.
 I also think that Outrider Signalman could technically work without a state, if it just used special tokens and said something similar to Embargo:

"Setup: Each player takes one Signal token. When another player plays an attack card, players may lose one Signal token to be unaffected by it."

loneXolf

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #110 on: January 14, 2018, 09:50:06 pm »
0

Signalman seems too much better than Pirate Ship, to be honest. It starts at one token, gives +1$ even when you add one, has no risk of whiffing, can use its tokens for other benefits and costs less. The Treasure trashing on PS makes sure it isn't strictly worse, but I would argue that it actually is even another disadvantage most of the time.
 I also think that Outrider could technically work without a state, if it just used special tokens and said something similar to Embargo:

"Setup: Each player takes one Signal token. When another player plays an attack card, players may lose one Signal token to be unaffected by it."

I wouldn't say Signalman directly Powercreeps Pirate Ship since most of Pirate's Ship "strength" can come from it's attack like thief. For example in games with the only decent way to gain coin is Pirateship and Treasures where the other player(s) bought a chapel(heavy trashing) or in a bad kingdom where the only openings is silver/pirate ship or silver/silver. However I do agree, if you don't plan to benefit off the attack of Pirateship, Signalman is just better. Also I think Signalman could lose the set up token at the cost of 3. I assume your Outrider comment is for Signalman, I don't really see much of a reason for signalman to have it's own token, if Embargo couldn't really use a card since it would cover the card. And if it used a coin token it wouldn't work well with trade route. A state is much easier to add then another token.

Asper

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #111 on: January 14, 2018, 11:06:27 pm »
0

Signalman seems too much better than Pirate Ship, to be honest. It starts at one token, gives +1$ even when you add one, has no risk of whiffing, can use its tokens for other benefits and costs less. The Treasure trashing on PS makes sure it isn't strictly worse, but I would argue that it actually is even another disadvantage most of the time.
 I also think that Outrider could technically work without a state, if it just used special tokens and said something similar to Embargo:

"Setup: Each player takes one Signal token. When another player plays an attack card, players may lose one Signal token to be unaffected by it."

I wouldn't say Signalman directly Powercreeps Pirate Ship since most of Pirate's Ship "strength" can come from it's attack like thief. For example in games with the only decent way to gain coin is Pirateship and Treasures where the other player(s) bought a chapel(heavy trashing) or in a bad kingdom where the only openings is silver/pirate ship or silver/silver. However I do agree, if you don't plan to benefit off the attack of Pirateship, Signalman is just better. Also I think Signalman could lose the set up token at the cost of 3. I assume your Outrider comment is for Signalman, I don't really see much of a reason for signalman to have it's own token, if Embargo couldn't really use a card since it would cover the card. And if it used a coin token it wouldn't work well with trade route. A state is much easier to add then another token.

Yes, I meant Signalman, not Outrider. I don't see how a State would be easier. You have tokens already, so the State just is additional material.

Gazbag

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #112 on: January 14, 2018, 11:19:44 pm »
0

Signalman seems too much better than Pirate Ship, to be honest. It starts at one token, gives +1$ even when you add one, has no risk of whiffing, can use its tokens for other benefits and costs less. The Treasure trashing on PS makes sure it isn't strictly worse, but I would argue that it actually is even another disadvantage most of the time.
 I also think that Outrider could technically work without a state, if it just used special tokens and said something similar to Embargo:

"Setup: Each player takes one Signal token. When another player plays an attack card, players may lose one Signal token to be unaffected by it."

I think "better than Pirate Ship" is something all cards should strive to be...  I mean if you think it's too strong that's fair enough but I don't care for the Pirate comparison. Miser seems like a better comparison and Copper trashing is better than +$1 by at least a mile. I mean I think that Signalman is pretty weak... seems poor compared to Gladiator to me considering you have to play Abandoned Mine twice before it's worth $3. Also no Fortune or free Gold.

I am thinking that the way it is now it sucks as an attack defence, which was supposed to be the main hook of the card. I'm thinking it could just do something generically useful and add a token, and if there aren't any attacks to defend against, well it's still doing something generically useful. I guess it's not like Lighthouse is great without attacks and that's fine too. Or maybe you just start the game with like 3 tokens and then it just does something unrelated so you only have a limited number of tokens? I don't know, lots of ways to take it.

Technically all States could use a token/ tokens, a good example is the Hexes. If Hexes were in Adventures for example I'm sure Miserable and co. would use a token. But Nocturne didn't have tokens, so it uses States instead. Ice Age has Ice and Coin tokens already and other cards that use a State, so using Coin tokens and a State seems more logical to me. Donald has also said that if he did a 2nd edition of Seaside he would update Embargo and Pirate Ship to not use tokens and instead just set aside treasures/put Embargos on piles to track (or probably just get rid of them because they're both duds). The reason why Pirate Ship and Embargo use tokens is because the publisher wanted to justify a higher price point for the expansion by including metal tokens, as seaside had 200 fewer cards than Base and Intrigue. The notion that using tokens is somehow simpler is false, in my opinion. It's nice to have the card there with the rules right on it.

Oh also it turns out that Rediscover gaining Provinces with 3 Ice tokens on them is fairly broken, I'll have to rethink that one...
 
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ipofanes

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #113 on: January 15, 2018, 11:29:57 am »
0

I don't think the word "first" belongs on the Beacon text, as it can only be used after the Attack is played but before it can resolve.
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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #114 on: January 15, 2018, 11:56:09 am »
0

I guess you are right about Pirate Ship being too weak (especially in 2P games) to matter as much, but even Miser has not only advantages over Signalman - so I'm not sure it's too weak. For instance, if you can't line up Signalman with a Copper, it doesn't just whiff. Also, compared to Signalman, you suffer not 1$, but 2$ loss the turn you use Miser to build up money. Signalman can be useful in decks with other strong trashers, whereas Miser is redundant with those. Also, the tokens can still be used as a defense and it costs ever-so-slightly less.

About Gladiator, it isn't always worth 3$, and Fortune isn't something you get by Gladiator, so counting it as something seperate from those free Golds leads to the wrong impression.

I don't recall Donald saying that he'd put Embargo itself on the piles, but you might have newer information than me. Last time I checked, he said that putting Embargo itself on the piles (as done in the beginning) was confusing to people, and so he changed it when it was clear there could be tokens. Similar about Pirate Ship confusing people when Treasures on the mat were worth more than 1$. Maybe you can link to where you got that information? I do recall him saying he'd have preferred Adventures' -Card and -Coin tokens as States, but that's another bag. One thing they have in common with Nocturne'state for example is that they are given to players at some point and can be removed later.

Also, I don't agree to Embargo being a dud. Our games have shown me that you are a much better player than me, so maybe Embargo is weak from an experienced player's perspective. But it shapes a game, as you can't go for certain strategies without being punished (ergo it's not pointless), and I also believe it is relatively popular. My favourite Seaside card togegher with Haven, actually.

loneXolf

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #115 on: January 15, 2018, 01:04:02 pm »
+1

Yes, I meant Signalman, not Outrider. I don't see how a State would be easier. You have tokens already, so the State just is additional material.

I meant adding extra cards would be easier than adding another unique token for a single card. Unique tokens would just make the game harder to set up and track, while more cards would also do this I would put it on a lesser effect. Also I don't know which dominion token you could use to track Signalman well.

Gazbag

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #116 on: January 15, 2018, 01:34:58 pm »
+1

I don't think the word "first" belongs on the Beacon text, as it can only be used after the Attack is played but before it can resolve.

I referenced the 2nd edition Moat for that wording, so I assume it's close to how it would be worded in an official set.

I thought Donald said that stuff in the interview thread, but it was actually on Discord. I'm not sure whether I can link to particular things on Discord? If you just search for posts from Donald X. he was talking about it last Tuesday, it shouldn't be too difficult to find.

Gladiator uncovering Fortune and allowing you to be the first to buy it is the most important thing about Gladiator. I had Embargo as the worst $2 on my Qvist card ranking and in my opinion Tax is a much better execution of that concept, so it's a huge dud in my opinion.

Well the reaction to Signalman has been resoundingly negative anyway, so I'd best rethink it because of that.
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Asper

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #117 on: January 15, 2018, 05:20:21 pm »
0

Huh, interesting. This sounds like a pretty big change of heart, but if he said it on Discord I'll take your word for it.

Gazbag

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #118 on: January 16, 2018, 11:38:36 am »
0



2nd Signalman attempt. It's now a slow Workshop that can also block attacks. I haven't thought this through much so it might be super strong? Actually it seems reasonable? Still much wore than Lighthouse at blocking attacks, but you get one block for free.
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loneXolf

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #119 on: January 17, 2018, 01:31:29 am »
0



2nd Signalman attempt. It's now a slow Workshop that can also block attacks. I haven't thought this through much so it might be super strong? Actually it seems reasonable? Still much wore than Lighthouse at blocking attacks, but you get one block for free.

The Workship effect seems too slow to me for constantly helping a engine, but gaining a free 3 cost card after two/three plays might not be that bad. I wonder if saving the coin tokens for a province is decent.

Gazbag

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #120 on: January 17, 2018, 05:23:31 pm »
0

The Workship effect seems too slow to me for constantly helping a engine, but gaining a free 3 cost card after two/three plays might not be that bad. I wonder if saving the coin tokens for a province is decent.

Best case seems to be a useful $2 like Hamlet or something. Maybe it could topdeck the gained card, but it is a terminal Silver so for $3 it doesn't need much extra.
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Gazbag

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #121 on: January 25, 2018, 03:06:55 pm »
+1

Here's an idea for a change to the states that go with Outrider, Bountiful Wilderness was a little uninspired. I still think Outrider's on-play is okay, not powerful or anything but it has enough utility to be reasonable. I think it's better to be on the weaker side because it's paired with these states which make +buy a little more valuable.



A thing that States can do is be double sided, so that seems like something to explore, flipping to a different state.



You start the game in a Frozen Wilderness, which slowly stockpiles tokens. Perhaps this should be more like Lost in the Woods and be "you may discard a card, to put a token on this" but I'd like to try it in this form first and change it if it's crazy.



Frozen Wilderness flips into a Bountiful Wilderness, but once you flip it, it can't flip back. The idea is that you have to time it right to get the most value out of the Coin tokens. If you do it too early they will run out, too late and you'll have some wasted tokens. The requirement is now just 2 unused buys, so with one Outrider play you can flip it if you don't buy anything, or you could build up to many +buys and flip it that way while still buying cards.
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loneXolf

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #122 on: January 27, 2018, 08:47:00 am »
0

Here's an idea for a change to the states that go with Outrider, Bountiful Wilderness was a little uninspired. I still think Outrider's on-play is okay, not powerful or anything but it has enough utility to be reasonable. I think it's better to be on the weaker side because it's paired with these states which make +buy a little more valuable.



A thing that States can do is be double sided, so that seems like something to explore, flipping to a different state.



You start the game in a Frozen Wilderness, which slowly stockpiles tokens. Perhaps this should be more like Lost in the Woods and be "you may discard a card, to put a token on this" but I'd like to try it in this form first and change it if it's crazy.



Frozen Wilderness flips into a Bountiful Wilderness, but once you flip it, it can't flip back. The idea is that you have to time it right to get the most value out of the Coin tokens. If you do it too early they will run out, too late and you'll have some wasted tokens. The requirement is now just 2 unused buys, so with one Outrider play you can flip it if you don't buy anything, or you could build up to many +buys and flip it that way while still buying cards.

Frozen Wilderness- Seems like a rough card to judge might be pretty good, extremely bad, or insane. If you only bought one outrider you are forced to not buy anything to proc this, if your deck cannot fit more than 1 outrider it could be random/rough to proc this. I would also like it if you need at least one outrider to proc frozen wilderness, as is it could be super easy to proc in some kingdoms but then I guess it would turn into when do I proc wilderness game, so maybe it's fine.

Gazbag

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #123 on: January 27, 2018, 08:05:11 pm »
0

I did an overdue big update on the OP, introducing the newer stuff and adding tweaks/outtakes of the older stuff.

Now to make that update instantly out of date... new card time!

Wayfinder:

Duration Scout? Also trying to make the Victory setting aside thing Ice Cave tried to do work. Perhaps it steps on Frost Spirits toes too much now?

Tundra 3rd attempt(I think?)

A different take on an Ice token attack and the messing with the 1st gained card that Tundra was trying.  I think 3 is a decent number, taking the first few shuffles into consideration? I also considered an Embargo-like thing that put Ice tokens on a supply pile, but I didn't really like that, Embargo sucks.
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loneXolf

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Re: Dominion: Ice Age
« Reply #124 on: January 29, 2018, 06:44:37 am »
0

Wayfinder- Scout clones! Sure wayfinder could be useful later in the game if you have a lot of victory cards in a slim deck or maybe against curse attackers. But I just don't see this card being bought in most kingdoms. Sure it looks better than scout but it doesn't look fix it's core problems.
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