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Author Topic: Empires cards I still don't get  (Read 14718 times)

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Jeebus

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Re: Empires cards I still don't get
« Reply #50 on: December 05, 2017, 11:35:17 am »
0

I've reread all of my posts and they seem reasonable enough to me, I'm sorry if you feel like I've wasted your time but if you didn't want to discuss this then I just don't get why you posted the topic to a discussion forum in the first place. You mentioned my name in the post so I assumed you would appreciate some further input, I won't involve myself next time.

Obviously the pileout example was a bit extreme, but my point still stands, what you said in the part I quoted was saying that it was only good if you don't let debt carry over, which is silly. If that isn't what you meant then we have no disagreement there, no problem.

I can only assume that you re-read your own posts but not mine - since the only time I've ever talked about avoiding carrying debt over, was with reference to midgame Triumphs after a couple of gains. I've even explicitly stated several times that I totally get ending the game with Triumph for a lot of VP, so obviously that was never part of what I've been discussing that I don't get. I also want to introduce you to the concept of "context". Just because you can quote me saying something, doesn't mean that I mean that as a universal truth.

Chappy7

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Re: Empires cards I still don't get
« Reply #51 on: December 05, 2017, 03:57:05 pm »
+3

At least we can all agree that annex sucks
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greybirdofprey

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Re: Empires cards I still don't get
« Reply #52 on: December 06, 2017, 05:06:18 pm »
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Is Annex a viable alternative for a Duchy buy? Like, if one person never buys Annex, and another player always buys an Annex when he would otherwise buy a Duchy, how would they compare? Are those five reshuffled cards worth the extra $3 debt you wouldn't get with a Duchy? You would probably only buy a Duchy when greening, which is when the effect is more useful.

I might try this the next time Annex is on the table.
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Awaclus

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Re: Empires cards I still don't get
« Reply #53 on: December 07, 2017, 01:21:26 am »
0

Is Annex a viable alternative for a Duchy buy? Like, if one person never buys Annex, and another player always buys an Annex when he would otherwise buy a Duchy, how would they compare? Are those five reshuffled cards worth the extra $3 debt you wouldn't get with a Duchy? You would probably only buy a Duchy when greening, which is when the effect is more useful.

I might try this the next time Annex is on the table.

The person who always buys Duchy over Annex has a very major advantage over the person who always buys Annex over Duchy.
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popsofctown

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Re: Empires cards I still don't get
« Reply #54 on: December 07, 2017, 01:52:00 am »
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Duchy is for catching up, Annex is for holding leads.
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Awaclus

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Re: Empires cards I still don't get
« Reply #55 on: December 07, 2017, 02:44:59 am »
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Duchy is for catching up, Annex is for holding leads.

That's not accurate either, most of the time you don't want Annex even when you're in the lead. This is the case where Annex is good:

You need to have a thick deck and you need to have not drawn it last turn and you need to have not drawn it this turn and you need to have good cards in your discard pile that are so much better than the average card left in your deck that you're fine with having to pay a bunch of debt and you need to not have more than 5 cards that you don't want to shuffle in and you need to want to buy a Duchy. Basically you have to be playing some kind of big money with a lot of Curses/Ruins in your deck and you need to draw your cards in exactly the right order at exactly the right time and then it's a good event to buy.

That, or it needs to be your last turn and you need to have a spare buy.
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Chris is me

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Re: Empires cards I still don't get
« Reply #56 on: December 07, 2017, 05:16:57 pm »
0

Is Annex a viable alternative for a Duchy buy? Like, if one person never buys Annex, and another player always buys an Annex when he would otherwise buy a Duchy, how would they compare? Are those five reshuffled cards worth the extra $3 debt you wouldn't get with a Duchy? You would probably only buy a Duchy when greening, which is when the effect is more useful.

I might try this the next time Annex is on the table.

The person who always buys Duchy over Annex has a very major advantage over the person who always buys Annex over Duchy.

And by “very major advantage”, you of course mean “3 Debt”, which is all things considered not that much? Like you usually just buy the Duchy, but a less extreme version of the hyperbolic best-case You outlined happens pretty routinely in slogs or no-thinning BM games.
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Awaclus

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Re: Empires cards I still don't get
« Reply #57 on: December 08, 2017, 03:50:29 am »
0

Is Annex a viable alternative for a Duchy buy? Like, if one person never buys Annex, and another player always buys an Annex when he would otherwise buy a Duchy, how would they compare? Are those five reshuffled cards worth the extra $3 debt you wouldn't get with a Duchy? You would probably only buy a Duchy when greening, which is when the effect is more useful.

I might try this the next time Annex is on the table.

The person who always buys Duchy over Annex has a very major advantage over the person who always buys Annex over Duchy.

And by “very major advantage”, you of course mean “3 Debt”, which is all things considered not that much? Like you usually just buy the Duchy, but a less extreme version of the hyperbolic best-case You outlined happens pretty routinely in slogs or no-thinning BM games.

Three debt is the difference between being able to buy a Province next turn and being able to buy a Duchy next turn, which is pretty often the difference between winning and losing. So all things considered, it is that much.

In slogs and no-thinning BM games, you still need to draw your deck in the right order at the right time. That, and it needs to be a slog or no-thinning BM kingdom in the first place, which are not that common. Almost all of the Annexes I have bought this year (which is not very many, I think 4 or 5) were due to either Rebuild or Possession, and I can only think of one game where I actually bought Annex just because it was better than Duchy. 
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Chris is me

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Re: Empires cards I still don't get
« Reply #58 on: December 08, 2017, 08:24:06 am »
0

For one thing, it’s not always 3 Debt - you can buy Annex on $6 or $7, even $8 sometimes.

In slogs and no-thinning BM games, you still need to draw your deck in the right order at the right time.

If only some aspect of Annex would help you do this in order to more reliably spike 8+ hands in the following 1-2 turns...
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Awaclus

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Re: Empires cards I still don't get
« Reply #59 on: December 08, 2017, 08:48:07 am »
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In slogs and no-thinning BM games, you still need to draw your deck in the right order at the right time.

If only some aspect of Annex would help you do this in order to more reliably spike 8+ hands in the following 1-2 turns...

Indeed. To bad no aspect of Annex helps you do that because it's never worth it to buy Annex until you already drew your cards in the right order at the right time, outside of edge cases such as Possession and Rebuild.
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FemurLemur

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Re: Empires cards I still don't get
« Reply #60 on: December 08, 2017, 09:51:00 am »
+1

I'm also one who struggles to see why Triumph is so good. It seems like you need a lot of things in place for it to work. You need a deck that can gain a bunch of cards in a single turn, and then you need to deal with the Estate. I doesn't seem like something that's always going to be good.

True, but how many cards are always good? When it is good, it's something that you shouldn't ignore. But it's not Chapel or anything.
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greybirdofprey

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Re: Empires cards I still don't get
« Reply #61 on: December 09, 2017, 10:45:01 am »
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Is Annex a viable alternative for a Duchy buy? Like, if one person never buys Annex, and another player always buys an Annex when he would otherwise buy a Duchy, how would they compare? Are those five reshuffled cards worth the extra $3 debt you wouldn't get with a Duchy? You would probably only buy a Duchy when greening, which is when the effect is more useful.

I might try this the next time Annex is on the table.

The person who always buys Duchy over Annex has a very major advantage over the person who always buys Annex over Duchy.

And by “very major advantage”, you of course mean “3 Debt”, which is all things considered not that much? Like you usually just buy the Duchy, but a less extreme version of the hyperbolic best-case You outlined happens pretty routinely in slogs or no-thinning BM games.

Three debt is the difference between being able to buy a Province next turn and being able to buy a Duchy next turn, which is pretty often the difference between winning and losing. So all things considered, it is that much.

But how much debt is the 'shuffle up to 5 cards from your discard pile into your deck' worth? How much of the $3 debt you get can you pay off with those five shuffled cards?
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chipperMDW

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Re: Empires cards I still don't get
« Reply #62 on: December 09, 2017, 11:31:36 am »
+3

But how much debt is the 'shuffle up to 5 cards from your discard pile into your deck' worth? How much of the $3 debt you get can you pay off with those five shuffled cards?

(Annex has you pick up to five cards to leave in your discard pile. And shuffle the rest into your deck. You mentioned Dutch cards in another thread, so I'm wondering if there's a mistranslation.)
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Jeebus

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Re: Empires cards I still don't get
« Reply #63 on: December 09, 2017, 12:16:59 pm »
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I'm thinking that Annex would be more interesting if you could leave any amount of cards in your discard pile.

greybirdofprey

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Re: Empires cards I still don't get
« Reply #64 on: December 09, 2017, 12:36:33 pm »
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But how much debt is the 'shuffle up to 5 cards from your discard pile into your deck' worth? How much of the $3 debt you get can you pay off with those five shuffled cards?

(Annex has you pick up to five cards to leave in your discard pile. And shuffle the rest into your deck. You mentioned Dutch cards in another thread, so I'm wondering if there's a mistranslation.)

Nah, it's translated right but I remembered it wrong. The actual version sounds worse though.
Still, how much is that effect worth compared to the $3 debt?
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Awaclus

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Re: Empires cards I still don't get
« Reply #65 on: December 10, 2017, 08:24:48 am »
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Nah, it's translated right but I remembered it wrong. The actual version sounds worse though.
Still, how much is that effect worth compared to the $3 debt?

It obviously depends on what cards you are shuffling in and what you're leaving out. Basically, if buying Annex improves your next expected hand by , it's worth paying for the effect. If it doesn't, it's not. Even if you would break even in two or three turns, that's not good enough because it's a critical stage of the game and you can't afford to fall behind, even if it's just in the short term.
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Limetime

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Re: Empires cards I still don't get
« Reply #66 on: December 11, 2017, 09:38:34 am »
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Nah, it's translated right but I remembered it wrong. The actual version sounds worse though.
Still, how much is that effect worth compared to the $3 debt?

It obviously depends on what cards you are shuffling in and what you're leaving out. Basically, if buying Annex improves your next expected hand by , it's worth paying for the effect. If it doesn't, it's not. Even if you would break even in two or three turns, that's not good enough because it's a critical stage of the game and you can't afford to fall behind, even if it's just in the short term.
I am pretty sure annex helps you stay in the game because it makes you not miss duchy.
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Awaclus

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Re: Empires cards I still don't get
« Reply #67 on: December 11, 2017, 10:53:47 am »
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Nah, it's translated right but I remembered it wrong. The actual version sounds worse though.
Still, how much is that effect worth compared to the $3 debt?

It obviously depends on what cards you are shuffling in and what you're leaving out. Basically, if buying Annex improves your next expected hand by , it's worth paying for the effect. If it doesn't, it's not. Even if you would break even in two or three turns, that's not good enough because it's a critical stage of the game and you can't afford to fall behind, even if it's just in the short term.
I am pretty sure annex helps you stay in the game because it makes you not miss duchy.

It makes you not miss Duchy only if it improves your next expected hand by more coins than you have to take debt.
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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: Empires cards I still don't get
« Reply #68 on: December 11, 2017, 05:30:30 pm »
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I think the idea behind Annex is to help with Penultimate Province situations where you still have $8 to spend. Does that seem accurate?
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LastFootnote

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Re: Empires cards I still don't get
« Reply #69 on: December 11, 2017, 05:41:20 pm »
+1

I think the idea behind Annex is to help with Penultimate Province situations where you still have $8 to spend. Does that seem accurate?

The idea was just, here's a nice place for this deck-stacking effect, and also to have an Event that gains a Duchy.
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Re: Empires cards I still don't get
« Reply #70 on: December 11, 2017, 05:42:27 pm »
+1

For what it's worth, I recently played a game where I bought Annex a few times. I think it was sort of sloggy and had Groundskeeper. It seemed pretty effective.
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Re: Empires cards I still don't get
« Reply #71 on: December 12, 2017, 12:35:28 am »
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another use for annex is avoiding sea hag/haunted woods penalties
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