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Digitalnamshub

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Help for Beginners
« on: February 21, 2012, 08:56:35 am »
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Me and three friends have picked up Dominion and several of the expansions and we love it. Had played about 10 games before I started playing what is called Big Money. Seemed too easy to me that that was the best strategy for a game that won the Spiel des Jahres. So I came here to see what I was missing... oh boy. I should have known I was in trouble when I saw that you all have simulated probabilities for beginning turns.   :D

I have read through some of your articles and thoughts and would like to share the idea of streamlined engines and strategies etc with my friends. I realize the core set is always a good starting point, but can anyone recommend a basic 10 Action cards that we can start with that have the various strategies well represented so we can begin to learn how to really play this game and build good decks? For example, randomizing is more fun, but to learn, I do not want to start with 10 that all do the same thing. Like all are  +cards or +actions or are all minion based, etc. Any ideas on perfect a 'training' starting 10 would be appreciated, and why would also help.

Also, in reading articles and just basic understanding of probabilities, I understand that fewer cards are better, but what is a good ratio of Action to Treasure to VP? As your deck grows in Treasure and VP you need to add more actions right?

Thanks in Advance for all your help
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Re: Help for Beginners
« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2012, 09:10:43 am »
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Welcome!

Quote
Also, in reading articles and just basic understanding of probabilities, I understand that fewer cards are better, but what is a good ratio of Action to Treasure to VP? As your deck grows in Treasure and VP you need to add more actions right?
Depends on what actions you have.
Concerning Victory, you would prefer 0 Victory cards during the game and as much as possible at the end. Of course these two goals somehow interfere, so the rough idea is: Get rid of the Estates, if possible, and buy Provinces once you have enough money. Once half the Provinces  are gone, start getting Duchies and later Estates again.  There are of course situations where you can afford to get Provinces later.
Concerning Actions: If you play "BigMoney style", you usually want 1-3 terminal actions. 1 if it's a drawer like Smithy and your deck is small, which has a high potential to draw conflicting actions. 3 if it's a non-drawing action like Milita, and your deck gets larger. If you have cards with +Action/+Card like Market or Lab, you can in principle have as many of them in the deck as you can afford, just don't forget to also buy money, because Labs don't buy you Provinces. If you're building an engine , you often want as less money and as many actions in the deck as you can get away with.
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MasterAir

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Re: Help for Beginners
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2012, 09:21:59 am »
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In the base set, big money is semi-regularly the right answer.  It can be easily improved by the addition of either a smithy or a council room (terminal drawer).  I think that most of the joy of Dominion comes from reading a board and working out which strategy is strong in a particular ecosystem.

The gamechangers in the base set are chapel, witch, (workshop + gardens), smithy or council room.

The sets recommended in the rulebook by Donald X. are, I think, pretty good introductory sets which have a variety of valid strategies.  As a selection of cards that might be interesting, what about:

Chapel, Festival, Library, Militia, Moat, Remodel, Smithy, Village, Witch, Workshop

I still think that a random set is usually more interesting.
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DG

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Re: Help for Beginners
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2012, 11:48:39 am »
+1

Quote
For example, randomizing is more fun, but to learn, I do not want to start with 10 that all do the same thing. Like all are  +cards or +actions

These kingdoms can often be good for learning since you see the small differences between the cards during the game.

One method you could use for learning the cards would be to have random kingdoms but only swap 4 or 5 cards out from game to game. You get some continuity to build up ideas and some change to add new opportunities.
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dondon151

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Re: Help for Beginners
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2012, 12:02:47 pm »
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Usually sets with Chapel are likely to present alternatives to Big Money, particularly if Smithy is absent.
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petrie911

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Re: Help for Beginners
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2012, 12:08:04 pm »
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Good +Buy is also really nice for action chains.  Building up big turns is a bit pointless if you can only buy 1 Province at a time.
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werothegreat

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Re: Help for Beginners
« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2012, 02:40:59 pm »
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Chapel, Laboratory, Militia, Throne Room, Gardens, Witch, Market, Cellar, Workshop, Adventurer.

Has multiple possible strategies, and requires a little finesse to pull off.
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jonts26

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Re: Help for Beginners
« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2012, 02:46:12 pm »
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Which expansions did you pick up. Generally speaking, seaside and prosperity are both sets which encourage more complex engine building while the base set really encourages big money. Except for chapel. Engines love chapel.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Help for Beginners
« Reply #8 on: February 21, 2012, 03:33:53 pm »
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If you have the cards, I would recommend trying to build the Kingdoms that were used for the recent Isotropic Final Match.
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ecq

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Re: Help for Beginners
« Reply #9 on: February 21, 2012, 04:08:04 pm »
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If you have the cards, I would recommend trying to build the Kingdoms that were used for the recent Isotropic Final Match.

Seconded.

For those that missed it, the poster picked up several of the expansions and wants to learn the key strategies, so no need to restrict to just the base set.

I don't think you're going to find a single set that represents "the various strategies" (and if you did, it'd probably be unspeakably painful to play).  Simply put, there are too many strategies to cram into one set.  The best sets may have about 3 viable strategies.  It might be a good idea to list out the strategies you'd like to learn and find sets tailored to those. 
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Robz888

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Re: Help for Beginners
« Reply #10 on: February 21, 2012, 04:43:44 pm »
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Sets with other Green cards--Fairgrounds, Silk Road, Gardens, Nobles, Duke, especially--often lead to atypical, but very fun, games.
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philosophyguy

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Re: Help for Beginners
« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2012, 05:57:45 pm »
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I actually think the kingdoms for the tournament final are not a great choice initially, because there are too many competing options. For someone who's trying to become familiar with the main strategies, a kingdom with a single dominant strategy will be more helpful (if less fun after the first couple of games).
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popsofctown

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Re: Help for Beginners
« Reply #12 on: February 21, 2012, 07:15:55 pm »
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I'd probably recommend using a mixture of random and fixed.  To explore basic concepts, pick a card and make sure it gets at least one friend in the random bunch.  So say, "this game is going to be a Gardens game, but we're going to reroll unless there's a +buy that doesn't trash".

"This game is going to explore goons engines, so we're rerolling until we get goons and a village."

I think exploring the more difficult cards in their more difficult scenarios, but any sort of scenario that's difficult, is the best strategy.  It will be realistic because there was randomness involved, but a good practice strategy because later when a tricky card like Gardens or Bridge pops up, understanding that card won't be the focal point and you'll be able to tune in to the other stuff on the board.

I'm also going to cosign what philosophyguy said, I don't think the tournament setups are a good idea at all.  They were designed to have strategies of similar quality and in some cases probably only reward the best player a 60-40 advantage because everything comes so close.  You guys need to be learning stuff like that if you don't buy Sea Hag in the first four turns you're at a 2-98 disadvantage.
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RisingJaguar

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Re: Help for Beginners
« Reply #13 on: February 21, 2012, 08:52:03 pm »
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Welcome! I'll provide general advice as others can probably give you better insight.

1. Realize that multi-player games and 2 player games have much different dynamics.  A good chunk of the analysis that is done on these forums are about 2 player games.  So becareful that you don't meld strategies together.  For example you may relalize that thief is a good card in 4 players, but it won't be in 2 players.  Quite simply, you're attacking "3 times" vs. "1 time".

2.
One method you could use for learning the cards would be to have random kingdoms but only swap 4 or 5 cards out from game to game. You get some continuity to build up ideas and some change to add new opportunities.
This is pretty great actually.  Not only will you get to learn how the dynamics of each cards are changed with new kingdoms (because that's important), you'll be much more adept to gaining the more important skill in dominion.  Reading/adapting to a board.  Sure that comes from learning cards and what not, but this will probably make it grow faster.  (Or is this the same thing? :()

3. Try your intuitive strategies.  If you feel something can be good, even if its far fetched.  Try it.  If it sucks, oh wells but this will probably make you learn faster. 

4. Use these forums! It certainly has made me a better player.  I still don't know how to build a 'bot' but I now have a better understanding of Big Money because of it. 
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ftl

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Re: Help for Beginners
« Reply #14 on: February 21, 2012, 08:53:47 pm »
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Me and three friends have picked up Dominion and several of the expansions and we love it.

Congrats! which sets do you have? Hard to suggest sets of 10 cards without knowing which ones you have!


Quote
Had played about 10 games before I started playing what is called Big Money. Seemed too easy to me that that was the best strategy for a game that won the Spiel des Jahres.

Indeed. (Did you figure out BM+X, big money plus something else? or just pure silver-gold-province? I assume the former.)

Quote
So I came here to see what I was missing... oh boy. I should have known I was in trouble when I saw that you all have simulated probabilities for beginning turns.   :D

Welcome!

Quote
I have read through some of your articles and thoughts and would like to share the idea of streamlined engines and strategies etc with my friends. I realize the core set is always a good starting point, but can anyone recommend a basic 10 Action cards that we can start with that have the various strategies well represented so we can begin to learn how to really play this game and build good decks? For example, randomizing is more fun, but to learn, I do not want to start with 10 that all do the same thing. Like all are  +cards or +actions or are all minion based, etc. Any ideas on perfect a 'training' starting 10 would be appreciated, and why would also help.

I, personally, disagree with what you're looking for. The 'training' 10 shouldn't have lots of things represented - that leads to a situation where you can make a mistake by playing a sub-optimal strategy and miss that it's better than BM+X because it's worse than something else around, or you can mistakenly think you've hit on a good strategy because somebody else is playing something that seems better than BM but isn't. And so on and so forth - complexity and multiple options is good as a test of how well you've learned, but not necessarily as a method for learning. You should build up complexity gradually.

I'd say that it's better to have multiple sets of 10 - each which highlights one aspect or one strategy. You learn that one strategy, compare it to BM, and then file it away and see whether you can see it in random sets.

For example, one whole class of strategies which beat BM badly are rush strategies - where you aim to buy some cheap VP card (not provinces) and end the game fast by three-piling. The board which has like ALL the possible enablers for that is:

Gardens, Silk Road, Crossroads, Ironworks, Workshop, Bureaucrat, Trader, Woodcutter, Duchess, Ill-gotten Gains.

IGG alone, or (Gardens OR silk road)+(Ironworks OR workshop OR bureaucrat OR trader OR woodcutter) make for the rush.

At one point, I taught my friend how to make engines; here's the googledoc with a few sets. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TRVImznfSm9ZqIaXK0zq0T6LkhxMmcnjnxCmGa2HysI  It uses cards from the base set, Intrigue, and Seaside. It's also optimized for two-player, but you can adapt them.

If you have Prosperity, there's a few options for no-green-card-at-all engines with Goons and Bishop. Don't have one set to share.

Quote
Also, in reading articles and just basic understanding of probabilities, I understand that fewer cards are better, [/qubut what is a good ratio of Action to Treasure to VP? As your deck grows in Treasure and VP you need to add more actions right?

That completely depends on what strategy you go for!

For example, BM+X is really a quite viable strategy. In that, you typically want just a few actions, 1-3, and the rest treasure and VP; by the time you would want more actions in the deck, you really should only be buying VP. Fewer cards isn't necessarily better - it might not be worth the time to clear out the coppers.

There are some decks which want zero treasure AND zero green cards - for example, a big goons or bishop engine might want ONLY actions.

A more typical engine will want a little bit of treasure to get going, then buy mostly actions until you draw your whole deck and then add vp. There's no one right answer, though - it depends on the cards.
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Ozle

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Re: Help for Beginners
« Reply #15 on: February 22, 2012, 06:45:28 am »
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Having been in the same position myself just before christmas, my advice is just to keep playing randomly, it soon comes.

Eventually people who have any clue of basic strategy will realise the basics, like stop clogging your deck with too many cards that dont have +action on as your unlikely to be able to play them all.

The only thing I would advise for a beginner is not to use Alchemy too much to start with if you have that set, as it adds a little bit more complication to the thinking.

Just pick 10 random cards (Use a smart phone app, its easier) and then if youlike the idea of certain cards, swop them in. Eventually you will pick up all the right stuff to do, and you'll do it together with your friends.

Its more fun finding cool combos yourself than reading about them here!
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chogg

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Re: Help for Beginners
« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2012, 04:26:42 pm »
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I'd probably recommend using a mixture of random and fixed.  To explore basic concepts, pick a card and make sure it gets at least one friend in the random bunch.  So say, "this game is going to be a Gardens game, but we're going to reroll unless there's a +buy that doesn't trash".

"This game is going to explore goons engines, so we're rerolling until we get goons and a village."

If anyone has an Android device, check out the Dominion Shuffle app.  It lets you stipulate all kinds of conditions like that, so you don't have to re-roll.  For instance, you can require Goons, require at least one card that gives at least +2 actions, and just shuffle once.

I'd recommend it even if you don't have specific requirements.  It's the best option for randomizing when you have multiple expansions.  It's even better than dominiondeck.com, because it picks the Bane card with Young Witch, and chooses whether you'll play with Colony in a Prosperity game.
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mischiefmaker

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Re: Help for Beginners
« Reply #17 on: February 23, 2012, 01:13:00 am »
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It doesn't create or manage a Black Market deck, though, which a couple of the iphone apps do (Dominion KD does, though not as well as I might like, and I believe one of the paid versions does, and has features like specifying size and contents of the BM deck).
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