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Author Topic: M111: Super Smash Bros Melee (GAME OVER - EVIL PLAYERS WIN)  (Read 126335 times)

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ashersky

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Re: M111: Super Smash Bros Melee (Day 2)
« Reply #925 on: January 05, 2018, 07:28:09 pm »

I will ask — does O think it through like that?
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Teproc

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Re: M111: Super Smash Bros Melee (Day 2)
« Reply #926 on: January 05, 2018, 07:29:48 pm »

I mean, my problem is that you're NOT a bad player, but the conclusions you're drawing here are not really thought out.

I get that everybody wants to accept that blindly shooting The series of events fell the way they did, but the fact is that it's FAR easier to accept if you assume there was some guidance to what happened.

Scum killing one Doctor and blocking another is an INCREDIBLY reasonable play. O not understanding ascetic is not alignment indicative, it's just O. And that's far more reasonable than assuming all the night actions resolved from an all-Town perspective. That sort of coincidence just doesn't happen.

You keep going back to that idea that the "all town" scenario is unlikely, and that's just patently untrue. It's literally two night actions taken by town that worked out unfortunatly. That's it. One town PR targeting another town PR targeting the kill target. Guessing faust is going to be killed on N1 is not exactly rocket science you know, especially with the possibility of him being a doctor and him having gather little suspicion day 1.

O misunderstanding ascetic IS alignment-indicative! scum!O discussed this with his partners and is therefore much less likely to have misunderstood it (because you need three people to misunderstand it).

Of course scum killing a doctor and blocking another is reasonable play, that was the whole premise of my claim. I don't think O is town because he roleblocked me, I think he's town because he claimed it.
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Galzria

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Re: M111: Super Smash Bros Melee (Day 2)
« Reply #927 on: January 05, 2018, 07:29:53 pm »

Galz, what are your thoughts on Swan ?

I don't feel this is forced poisoner!swan that we saw when you were a mason.

In the Skumpy/Swan/LL game I had LL/Skumpy D1 - Swan was harder for me to read.
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Quote from: Voltgloss
Derphammering is when quickhammers go derp.

Faust has also been incredibly stubborn this game. In other news, it's hot in the summer, and water falls from the sky when it rains.


Mafia Record:
TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105, M108, M114, M118, M120, M122, DM1, DoM1, OZ2, RM45, RM47, RM48, RM49, RM55
TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31, M110, M111, M113, M117, M125, RM3, RM4, RM54
SCUM Wins: M2, M19, M23, M100, DM3, RM1, RM2, RM48, RM50
SCUM Losses: M15 (SK), M102 (Tr), OZ1, RM55

Total Wins: 30
Total Losses: 20

Teproc

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Re: M111: Super Smash Bros Melee (Day 2)
« Reply #928 on: January 05, 2018, 07:33:16 pm »

scum!O might lie about the misunderstanding of course, but if you believe he did misunderstand, then he's much more likely to be town. And again, playing dumb doesn't seem like a scum!O move to me.

It's not just about me tunneling gkrieg if O doesn't claim, it's about gkrieg being much more widely scumread, having a much scarier role and having refused to answer my second question. Scum!O sees that and definitely assumes he's safe if he doesn't claim, gkrieg gets lynched 80% of the time. He almost got lynched the day before, remember ?
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Galzria

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Re: M111: Super Smash Bros Melee (Day 2)
« Reply #929 on: January 05, 2018, 07:40:33 pm »

I mean, my problem is that you're NOT a bad player, but the conclusions you're drawing here are not really thought out.

I get that everybody wants to accept that blindly shooting The series of events fell the way they did, but the fact is that it's FAR easier to accept if you assume there was some guidance to what happened.

Scum killing one Doctor and blocking another is an INCREDIBLY reasonable play. O not understanding ascetic is not alignment indicative, it's just O. And that's far more reasonable than assuming all the night actions resolved from an all-Town perspective. That sort of coincidence just doesn't happen.

You keep going back to that idea that the "all town" scenario is unlikely, and that's just patently untrue. It's literally two night actions taken by town that worked out unfortunatly. That's it. One town PR targeting another town PR targeting the kill target. Guessing faust is going to be killed on N1 is not exactly rocket science you know, especially with the possibility of him being a doctor and him having gather little suspicion day 1.

O misunderstanding ascetic IS alignment-indicative! scum!O discussed this with his partners and is therefore much less likely to have misunderstood it (because you need three people to misunderstand it).

Of course scum killing a doctor and blocking another is reasonable play, that was the whole premise of my claim. I don't think O is town because he roleblocked me, I think he's town because he claimed it.

There are a handful of assumptions that need to be made for it to work out:

O is Town
O is a PR
O choose to block Teproc

Teproc is town
Teproc is a PR
Teproc choose to target Faust

Scum choose to target Faust

That could, in fact, all be true. Yes. But it's a lot of "if's" all working out. Whereas a much simpler explanation is flipping O from town to scum above. Now the REASONS for the targeting make sense. They don't if O is Town. I mean, what? His defense is that he scum read you and was trying to block a NK? He scum read a number of people. He picks the one person with a potentially useful town PR from that list?

How many people have been inactive? It's entirely possible that no, scum didn't talk about ascetic at night. It was over the holidays and activity was dead.

I personally town read Gkrieg yesterday. Others had not chimed in. His lynch with an unclaiming O is not as black and white as you want to believe.
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Quote from: Voltgloss
Derphammering is when quickhammers go derp.

Faust has also been incredibly stubborn this game. In other news, it's hot in the summer, and water falls from the sky when it rains.


Mafia Record:
TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105, M108, M114, M118, M120, M122, DM1, DoM1, OZ2, RM45, RM47, RM48, RM49, RM55
TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31, M110, M111, M113, M117, M125, RM3, RM4, RM54
SCUM Wins: M2, M19, M23, M100, DM3, RM1, RM2, RM48, RM50
SCUM Losses: M15 (SK), M102 (Tr), OZ1, RM55

Total Wins: 30
Total Losses: 20

O

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Re: M111: Super Smash Bros Melee (Day 2)
« Reply #930 on: January 05, 2018, 07:43:48 pm »

I will ask — does O think it through like that?

Probably not?

If I were Scum!O that would probably be an good trade if I claimed vanilla... keep my mouth shut, get Gkrieg + Teproc lynched, and die after having removed the potential doctor, redirector, one shot doctor + tracker...

Like I'm not going to say that my claiming is some magically exonerating evidence -- but the theories for why I would do it as scum all seem to fail the credibility test compared to the town argument: I'm town, and I claimed it because I did it and that's what town does.
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O

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Re: M111: Super Smash Bros Melee (Day 2)
« Reply #931 on: January 05, 2018, 07:48:05 pm »

He picks the one person with a potentially useful town PR from that list?
I
1) thought he had a harmful PR
2) Did not think he'd Doctor D1 as town


but even with both of those... your logic sucks

Scum!Teproc is scumbuddies with others. We've all massclaimed. They suspect there is potentially a roleblocker.
If everyone subscribed to your logic, they could just give Teproc the kill and avoid being blocked at all. It's not like the Tracker/Doctor/(Real) Ascetic shots are that useful as scum.

Even if I didn't fuck up, I should be roleblocking potentially useful PRs some percent of the time.
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O

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Re: M111: Super Smash Bros Melee (Day 2)
« Reply #932 on: January 05, 2018, 07:50:02 pm »

Like there's some Nash equilibrium here of correct blocking play that results in me blocking town beneficial PRs after a massclaim much higher than 0% of the time
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Galzria

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Re: M111: Super Smash Bros Melee (Day 2)
« Reply #933 on: January 05, 2018, 08:00:20 pm »

I
1) thought he had a harmful PR
It's not like the Tracker/Doctor/(Real) Ascetic shots are that useful as scum.
I should be roleblocking potentially useful PRs some percent of the time.

Wanna try again there with all that reasoning champ?

Scum!Teproc is scumbuddies with others. We've all massclaimed. They suspect there is potentially a roleblocker.

And they suspect that... Why?
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Quote from: Voltgloss
Derphammering is when quickhammers go derp.

Faust has also been incredibly stubborn this game. In other news, it's hot in the summer, and water falls from the sky when it rains.


Mafia Record:
TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105, M108, M114, M118, M120, M122, DM1, DoM1, OZ2, RM45, RM47, RM48, RM49, RM55
TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31, M110, M111, M113, M117, M125, RM3, RM4, RM54
SCUM Wins: M2, M19, M23, M100, DM3, RM1, RM2, RM48, RM50
SCUM Losses: M15 (SK), M102 (Tr), OZ1, RM55

Total Wins: 30
Total Losses: 20

O

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Re: M111: Super Smash Bros Melee (Day 2)
« Reply #934 on: January 05, 2018, 08:04:19 pm »

I
1) thought he had a harmful PR
It's not like the Tracker/Doctor/(Real) Ascetic shots are that useful as scum.
I should be roleblocking potentially useful PRs some percent of the time.

Wanna try again there with all that reasoning champ?

Hey smartass, there's no contradiction here. I first stated my assumptions last night, and then I shifted to arguing why you were wrong even if I was correctly informed.

1) I thought Teproc was a potentially useful SCUM Pr. (Statement 1)  This was incorrect (Statement 2).
2) Even if I didn't, I should block potentially useful TOWN Pr's some percentage of the time.


Scum!Teproc is scumbuddies with others. We've all massclaimed. They suspect there is potentially a roleblocker.

And they suspect that... Why?

Because a roleblocker died and I'm potentially universal backup?

That's why I said potentially..
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IDontPlayThisGame

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Re: M111: Super Smash Bros Melee (Day 2)
« Reply #935 on: January 05, 2018, 08:13:20 pm »

I could get on a Swan wagon. This is reminiscent of scum!Swan from the game I played with him.

@IDPTG: Any thoughts on the whole me/O/gkrieg thing (and on Galz while you're at it) ? What about Robe v mcmc ?

I think a gkrieg flip tells us a lot, but I don"t think that's a reason to lynch him. Not sure what I think if you yet. As for O, I've scumread people in the past for getting set-ups as wrong as this Ascetic deal, but it's never panned out well so I'm inclined to think it's town!O.

As for Robz vs mcmc, I think mcmc is the townier of the two, but it's not a super strong read.

Why does my flip give a lot of information compared to other people?

In my opinion, (assuming you're active and are using your shots) the alignment of the possible redirection clarifies some of the results that have been discussed today.

Really?  Everything checks out with night actions without me...

I'll take another look so I can better articulate what I was talking about.

Sorry about that. I went back to look for it but my memory wasn't correct.

O

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Re: M111: Super Smash Bros Melee (Day 2)
« Reply #936 on: January 05, 2018, 08:21:26 pm »

I prefer Galzria but could absolutely vote Swan
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gkrieg13

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Re: M111: Super Smash Bros Melee (Day 2)
« Reply #937 on: January 05, 2018, 08:23:39 pm »

I would also vote Swan if no one wants to join me on ISPTG
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Galzria

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Re: M111: Super Smash Bros Melee (Day 2)
« Reply #938 on: January 05, 2018, 08:27:39 pm »

So O's defense, if it is to be followed, goes thusly:

"Teproc was one of many scum reads I had D1, and I wanted to block a NK. I thought wrongly that his PR was ALSO useful as scum, so blocking him seemed like a double-win. Even though I was wrong about his PR being useful to scum, it's ok, because blocking useful town PR's can be ok sometimes. The fact that I claimed all of this makes me town."

Or, basically:

"I did really anti-Town stuff last night, but I admitted it so I'm town."

Man, who knew playing scum could be so easy.

O, your statement about scum assuming there could potentially be a Roleblocker is you blowing smoke to obfuscate points. They could "potentially" assume any claimed character was in the game. There is no rhyme or reason for them to assume any player over any other player is active.
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Quote from: Voltgloss
Derphammering is when quickhammers go derp.

Faust has also been incredibly stubborn this game. In other news, it's hot in the summer, and water falls from the sky when it rains.


Mafia Record:
TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105, M108, M114, M118, M120, M122, DM1, DoM1, OZ2, RM45, RM47, RM48, RM49, RM55
TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31, M110, M111, M113, M117, M125, RM3, RM4, RM54
SCUM Wins: M2, M19, M23, M100, DM3, RM1, RM2, RM48, RM50
SCUM Losses: M15 (SK), M102 (Tr), OZ1, RM55

Total Wins: 30
Total Losses: 20

O

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Re: M111: Super Smash Bros Melee (Day 2)
« Reply #939 on: January 05, 2018, 08:32:28 pm »

So O's defense, if it is to be followed, goes thusly:

"Teproc was one of many scum reads I had D1, and I wanted to block a NK. I thought wrongly that his PR was ALSO useful as scum, so blocking him seemed like a double-win. Even though I was wrong about his PR being useful to scum, it's ok, because blocking useful town PR's can be ok sometimes. The fact that I claimed all of this makes me town."

Or, basically:

"I did really anti-Town stuff last night, but I admitted it so I'm town."

Man, who knew playing scum could be so easy.

O, your statement about scum assuming there could potentially be a Roleblocker is you blowing smoke to obfuscate points. They could "potentially" assume any claimed character was in the game. There is no rhyme or reason for them to assume any player over any other player is active.

You're flailing again.

I have 2 points. One is that I fucked up. The other is that even though I fucked up, your statement is wrong. My second statement isn't trying to prove my alignment really, just show you that your wrong.


I'm not blowing smoke at all. Scum can assume there is potentially a roleblocker in the game. There's no reason I, a roleblocker, should play in a way that allows them to 100% avoid me by having a potentially townish pr use the kill.

What exactly is wrong about that? Respond to the point instead of saying it's blowing smoke.
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Archetype

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Re: M111: Super Smash Bros Melee (N0)
« Reply #940 on: January 05, 2018, 08:36:09 pm »

Vote Count 2.6

O (4): ashersky, Eevee, Galzria, DatSwan
Robz888 (2): chairs, mcmcsalot
Galzria (1): O
ashersky(1): IDontPlayThisGame
IDontPlayThisGame(1): gkrieg13
DatSwan(2): Teproc, Robz888

Not Voting (1): EFHW
With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch. Day 2 will end January 8th at 7:00 PM
« Last Edit: January 05, 2018, 08:48:38 pm by Archetype »
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O

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Re: M111: Super Smash Bros Melee (N0)
« Reply #941 on: January 05, 2018, 08:38:17 pm »

Vote Count 2.6

Teproc (1): DatSwan
O (5): ashersky, EFHW, Eevee, Galzria, DatSwan
Robz888 (2): chairs, mcmcsalot
Galzria (1): O
ashersky(1): IDontPlayThisGame
IDontPlayThisGame(1): gkrieg13
DatSwan(2): Teproc, Robz888

Not Voting (0):
With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch. Day 2 will end January 8th at 7:00 PM

EFHW unvoted
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O

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Re: M111: Super Smash Bros Melee (Day 2)
« Reply #942 on: January 05, 2018, 08:38:48 pm »

Also Datswan is double counted
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Archetype

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Re: M111: Super Smash Bros Melee (Day 2)
« Reply #943 on: January 05, 2018, 08:48:55 pm »

Fixed
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Galzria

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Re: M111: Super Smash Bros Melee (Day 2)
« Reply #944 on: January 05, 2018, 08:52:32 pm »

So O's defense, if it is to be followed, goes thusly:

"Teproc was one of many scum reads I had D1, and I wanted to block a NK. I thought wrongly that his PR was ALSO useful as scum, so blocking him seemed like a double-win. Even though I was wrong about his PR being useful to scum, it's ok, because blocking useful town PR's can be ok sometimes. The fact that I claimed all of this makes me town."

Or, basically:

"I did really anti-Town stuff last night, but I admitted it so I'm town."

Man, who knew playing scum could be so easy.

O, your statement about scum assuming there could potentially be a Roleblocker is you blowing smoke to obfuscate points. They could "potentially" assume any claimed character was in the game. There is no rhyme or reason for them to assume any player over any other player is active.

You're flailing again.

I have 2 points. One is that I fucked up. The other is that even though I fucked up, your statement is wrong. My second statement isn't trying to prove my alignment really, just show you that your wrong.


I'm not blowing smoke at all. Scum can assume there is potentially a roleblocker in the game. There's no reason I, a roleblocker, should play in a way that allows them to 100% avoid me by having a potentially townish pr use the kill.

What exactly is wrong about that? Respond to the point instead of saying it's blowing smoke.

The only one that's been flailing here is you O. Inconsistent arguments at BEST to attempt to explain actions that work far more as scum than as town.

You're trying to argue two ways at the same time:

1) I acted thinking Tep had a scummy PR - I was wrong.
2) I acted thinking Scum might know I was in the game so have their potential townie PR's do the kill.

The Faust kill was obvious? Why would scum do that if there are two potential trackers in the game? Obviously they assumed those were active and would've chosen to play around them, right? I mean, with your (2nd) logic scum is all omniscient about who actively has what so would've played accordingly, right?
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Quote from: Voltgloss
Derphammering is when quickhammers go derp.

Faust has also been incredibly stubborn this game. In other news, it's hot in the summer, and water falls from the sky when it rains.


Mafia Record:
TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105, M108, M114, M118, M120, M122, DM1, DoM1, OZ2, RM45, RM47, RM48, RM49, RM55
TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31, M110, M111, M113, M117, M125, RM3, RM4, RM54
SCUM Wins: M2, M19, M23, M100, DM3, RM1, RM2, RM48, RM50
SCUM Losses: M15 (SK), M102 (Tr), OZ1, RM55

Total Wins: 30
Total Losses: 20

O

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Re: M111: Super Smash Bros Melee (Day 2)
« Reply #945 on: January 05, 2018, 08:55:48 pm »


2) I acted thinking Scum might know I was in the game so have their potential townie PR's do the kill.

I am not and have never claimed this. I am providing arguments now that I did not consider or think of during the night, because I thought Teproc had a good for scum PR. I'm not arguing this to defend my towniness -- I'm arguing this to show the holes in your arguments and show your scumminess.

You're willfully misinterpreting me here

I don't have a clue what the Faust bit is about, I've never ever suggested the Faust kill was obvious.
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Galzria

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Re: M111: Super Smash Bros Melee (Day 2)
« Reply #946 on: January 05, 2018, 09:08:37 pm »


2) I acted thinking Scum might know I was in the game so have their potential townie PR's do the kill.

I am not and have never claimed this. I am providing arguments now that I did not consider or think of during the night, because I thought Teproc had a good for scum PR. I'm not arguing this to defend my towniness -- I'm arguing this to show the holes in your arguments and show your scumminess.

You're willfully misinterpreting me here

I don't have a clue what the Faust bit is about, I've never ever suggested the Faust kill was obvious.

What argument of mine is it that you think you're poking holes in with that line of arguing? The fact that scum you wants to block useful town PR's more than town you? A) He does, B) It's irrelevant from a town you perspectives because you're claiming that's not why you targeted Teproc anyway.
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Quote from: Voltgloss
Derphammering is when quickhammers go derp.

Faust has also been incredibly stubborn this game. In other news, it's hot in the summer, and water falls from the sky when it rains.


Mafia Record:
TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105, M108, M114, M118, M120, M122, DM1, DoM1, OZ2, RM45, RM47, RM48, RM49, RM55
TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31, M110, M111, M113, M117, M125, RM3, RM4, RM54
SCUM Wins: M2, M19, M23, M100, DM3, RM1, RM2, RM48, RM50
SCUM Losses: M15 (SK), M102 (Tr), OZ1, RM55

Total Wins: 30
Total Losses: 20

O

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Re: M111: Super Smash Bros Melee (Day 2)
« Reply #947 on: January 05, 2018, 09:15:20 pm »


2) I acted thinking Scum might know I was in the game so have their potential townie PR's do the kill.

I am not and have never claimed this. I am providing arguments now that I did not consider or think of during the night, because I thought Teproc had a good for scum PR. I'm not arguing this to defend my towniness -- I'm arguing this to show the holes in your arguments and show your scumminess.

You're willfully misinterpreting me here

I don't have a clue what the Faust bit is about, I've never ever suggested the Faust kill was obvious.

What argument of mine is it that you think you're poking holes in with that line of arguing? The fact that scum you wants to block useful town PR's more than town you? A) He does, B) It's irrelevant from a town you perspectives because you're claiming that's not why you targeted Teproc anyway.

It's not irrelevant. The implication hidden in there is that I made up misreading the role to defend my actions. I'm pointing out that I have no reason to make up misreading the role because my actions would have been defensible regardless... I legitimately just misread the role.
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EFHW

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Re: M111: Super Smash Bros Melee (Day 2)
« Reply #948 on: January 05, 2018, 09:31:20 pm »

I've read all of Galzria's and Teproc's back and forth, and I think they are both right. O claiming is not alignment indicative. He could have had either line of reasoning at the time.

Is the main scummy thing about him that he targeted Teproc? That does fit a scum narrative well, but his story fits, too. If there is more, please elaborate. I thought his initial arguments were fishy, but I'm getting more used to his style now.
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Galzria

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Re: M111: Super Smash Bros Melee (Day 2)
« Reply #949 on: January 05, 2018, 09:31:56 pm »


2) I acted thinking Scum might know I was in the game so have their potential townie PR's do the kill.

I am not and have never claimed this. I am providing arguments now that I did not consider or think of during the night, because I thought Teproc had a good for scum PR. I'm not arguing this to defend my towniness -- I'm arguing this to show the holes in your arguments and show your scumminess.

You're willfully misinterpreting me here

I don't have a clue what the Faust bit is about, I've never ever suggested the Faust kill was obvious.

What argument of mine is it that you think you're poking holes in with that line of arguing? The fact that scum you wants to block useful town PR's more than town you? A) He does, B) It's irrelevant from a town you perspectives because you're claiming that's not why you targeted Teproc anyway.

It's not irrelevant. The implication hidden in there is that I made up misreading the role to defend my actions. I'm pointing out that I have no reason to make up misreading the role because my actions would have been defensible regardless... I legitimately just misread the role.

There's no hidden anything there. I do believe you misread it. I believe you looked at it and went:

Well, town me would want to block him because X (this is what you've claimed, from a town perspective, wrong though it was), and scum me wants to block him because of {Doctor, Tracker}, so I can argue having made this choice because of X.

X was wrong, but I do genuinely believe you didn't know that. I think scum you planned on using it as a defense for picking Teproc not realizing it was wrong, and now are using a "Well I fucked up" defense instead.
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Quote from: Voltgloss
Derphammering is when quickhammers go derp.

Faust has also been incredibly stubborn this game. In other news, it's hot in the summer, and water falls from the sky when it rains.


Mafia Record:
TOWN Wins: M3, M5, M6, M11, M17, M28, M32, M105, M108, M114, M118, M120, M122, DM1, DoM1, OZ2, RM45, RM47, RM48, RM49, RM55
TOWN Losses: M4, M7, M8, M9, M13, M14, M18, M31, M110, M111, M113, M117, M125, RM3, RM4, RM54
SCUM Wins: M2, M19, M23, M100, DM3, RM1, RM2, RM48, RM50
SCUM Losses: M15 (SK), M102 (Tr), OZ1, RM55

Total Wins: 30
Total Losses: 20
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