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Author Topic: M111: Super Smash Bros Melee (GAME OVER - EVIL PLAYERS WIN)  (Read 126300 times)

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faust

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Re: M111: Super Smash Bros Melee (Day 1)
« Reply #100 on: December 19, 2017, 02:19:47 am »

My "convoluted plan" was just an idea on how we might be able to catch scum in lies about PRs.
Yep, on an issue where scum has no inclination whatsoever to lie. The most likely thing to happen is for someone to mess up their claim and thus giving scum an easy mislynch target.
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Re: M111: Super Smash Bros Melee (Day 1)
« Reply #101 on: December 19, 2017, 02:25:03 am »

Hello! Every time I post, please, someone, reply "GO FINISH YOUR BOOK."

Are we going to massclaim right away, or have a long argument about it and then massclaim anyway?
I'm the SK
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Re: M111: Super Smash Bros Melee (Day 1)
« Reply #102 on: December 19, 2017, 02:27:31 am »

Vote: Robz as Obv!scum
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Re: M111: Super Smash Bros Melee (Day 1)
« Reply #103 on: December 19, 2017, 04:27:42 am »

Actually Vote: gkrieg because mislynching him is fun
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Re: M111: Super Smash Bros Melee (Day 1)
« Reply #104 on: December 19, 2017, 05:09:10 am »

since the name of your pokemon is not absolutely correlated to you having that PR, I think there may be some merit in a flavor claim.
Thing is since you get to bid prior to knowing your alignment... does the claim actually help us all that much?
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faust

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Re: M111: Super Smash Bros Melee (Day 1)
« Reply #105 on: December 19, 2017, 05:15:38 am »

since the name of your pokemon is not absolutely correlated to you having that PR, I think there may be some merit in a flavor claim.
Thing is since you get to bid prior to knowing your alignment... does the claim actually help us all that much?
This is what it does:

- scum cannot switch claims among one another if it suits them
- scum can never directly counterclaim a PR
- scum cannot claim PR when they are about to be lynched in order to out another PR
- if scummy things happen (Roleblocking, Redirection etc.) and we find out, scum will have to own up to it. This strongly limits the amount of damage they can safely do with their PRs.

And, on the minus side:
- it is easier for scum to target PRs that would potentially be dangerous to them.
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faust

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Re: M111: Super Smash Bros Melee (Day 1)
« Reply #106 on: December 19, 2017, 05:18:05 am »

@Archetype: Can you confirm that alignment has been assigned independently of which players received which flavor names?
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faust

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Re: M111: Super Smash Bros Melee (Day 1)
« Reply #107 on: December 19, 2017, 05:20:40 am »

And another:

Can scum use both their Oracle shots in the same night?
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faust

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Re: M111: Super Smash Bros Melee (Day 1)
« Reply #108 on: December 19, 2017, 05:22:29 am »

There's more relevant stuff... sorry about all the questions.

When will scum receive the answers from the Oracle?
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Re: M111: Super Smash Bros Melee (Day 1)
« Reply #109 on: December 19, 2017, 05:28:49 am »

The more I think about it, the more I like a flavor claim. It makes everyone's night actions better (on both sides), which is good if we have many PRs, and if we don't have many... well I guess we'd better hope we don't have the ones scum is most worried about ? I guess it's kind of a balancing the game thing either way: if we got underpowered, scum will be killing VTs, otherwise they'll get a straight beeline to our best PRs ? But we get coordination...

I think I'm fine with flavor claim. Definitely not actual role claim though. Don't know about claiming lists and such, I guess it can go along with flavor claiming ? I suppose that's the only thing that might possibly catch scum.
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faust

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Re: M111: Super Smash Bros Melee (Day 1)
« Reply #110 on: December 19, 2017, 05:34:30 am »

I think I'm fine with flavor claim. Definitely not actual role claim though. Don't know about claiming lists and such, I guess it can go along with flavor claiming ? I suppose that's the only thing that might possibly catch scum.
And how would that happen?
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Re: M111: Super Smash Bros Melee (Day 1)
« Reply #111 on: December 19, 2017, 05:39:16 am »

I think I'm fine with flavor claim. Definitely not actual role claim though. Don't know about claiming lists and such, I guess it can go along with flavor claiming ? I suppose that's the only thing that might possibly catch scum.
And how would that happen?

Well, not if they tell the truth, obviously.

I guess claiming lists in and of itself doesn't make it harder for scum to lie. Maybe it makes it easier actually, if they claim last. So maybe we should stick to flavor ? And if someone spots an inconsistency we can have specific lists claims.
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faust

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Re: M111: Super Smash Bros Melee (Day 1)
« Reply #112 on: December 19, 2017, 06:55:13 am »

I think I'm fine with flavor claim. Definitely not actual role claim though. Don't know about claiming lists and such, I guess it can go along with flavor claiming ? I suppose that's the only thing that might possibly catch scum.
And how would that happen?

Well, not if they tell the truth, obviously.

I guess claiming lists in and of itself doesn't make it harder for scum to lie. Maybe it makes it easier actually, if they claim last. So maybe we should stick to flavor ? And if someone spots an inconsistency we can have specific lists claims.
Yes, but what motivation does scum have to lie?
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Re: M111: Super Smash Bros Melee (Day 1)
« Reply #113 on: December 19, 2017, 08:02:43 am »

I'm sure you can think of a few. I don't really see the point in outlining them here though. It's a risk for them, and telling the truth is certainly simpler, but scum lying is always a possibility worth considering.
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mcmcsalot

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Re: M111: Super Smash Bros Melee (Day 1)
« Reply #114 on: December 19, 2017, 09:29:11 am »

So I’m generally very anti any claim because I feel like the advantage it gives (forcing scum to not lie later) is not worth the advantage we lose (keeping town prs safe).

I get here that since claiming flavor doesn’t guarantee the person is a pr it’s a little better. But I still don’t see the huge benefit. Do we really fear scum counterclaiming people or pretending to be a different role then they are. Is that really worth just telling mafia who might be deathproof a universal backup, a doctor, a supersaint, a roleblocker ect.

I’m still in favor of just trying to scum hunt traditionally and getting some advantage out of blocking a night kill, or killing scum via town prs.

Also as people said we bid on powers before alignment so it’s not like in draft games where knowing what scum went for helps us. We literally are just giving scum all our possible pr info so in two days they can’t lie.
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Wins: M19, M21, M23, M24, M26, M39, M91, M94, M102, M104, M107, M114, M115
Losses: M20, M22, M25, M27, M30, M31, M35, M38, M40, M42, M46, M60, M90, M93, M96, M98, M100, M101, M106, M111, M113
Winrate: 38.2%(13/34) 29.6%(8/27), 71.4%(5/7)

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Re: M111: Super Smash Bros Melee (Day 1)
« Reply #115 on: December 19, 2017, 09:36:59 am »

This is what it does:

- scum cannot switch claims among one another if it suits them
- scum can never directly counterclaim a PR
- scum cannot claim PR when they are about to be lynched in order to out another PR
- if scummy things happen (Roleblocking, Redirection etc.) and we find out, scum will have to own up to it. This strongly limits the amount of damage they can safely do with their PRs.

And, on the minus side:
- it is easier for scum to target PRs that would potentially be dangerous to them.

Your first point I don’t see how that super helpful. Like scum can still switch claims now if they want (they could have daychat) and I don’t see how scum switching claims here is super helpful to scum at all.
Points two and theee I get, no counter claim and no last minute claim, but I feel counterclaims are not the hardest thing to figure out and at worst it’s a 1 for 1. As for claims before lynch that’s not a huge problem in standard mafia games, people can claim other people’s roles accidentally, and there could be results that prove people wrong.
Your fourth point I had not thought of. I see the advantage to locking scum into not doing scummy things but it also prevents town from catching scum doing scummy things. No ability to catch scum lying if they can’t lie.

I still stick with not wanting to massclaim
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Wins: M19, M21, M23, M24, M26, M39, M91, M94, M102, M104, M107, M114, M115
Losses: M20, M22, M25, M27, M30, M31, M35, M38, M40, M42, M46, M60, M90, M93, M96, M98, M100, M101, M106, M111, M113
Winrate: 38.2%(13/34) 29.6%(8/27), 71.4%(5/7)

faust

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Re: M111: Super Smash Bros Melee (Day 1)
« Reply #116 on: December 19, 2017, 09:38:51 am »

So I’m generally very anti any claim because I feel like the advantage it gives (forcing scum to not lie later) is not worth the advantage we lose (keeping town prs safe).

I get here that since claiming flavor doesn’t guarantee the person is a pr it’s a little better. But I still don’t see the huge benefit. Do we really fear scum counterclaiming people or pretending to be a different role then they are. Is that really worth just telling mafia who might be deathproof a universal backup, a doctor, a supersaint, a roleblocker ect.
I mean yes it is. I might have a different opinion with different roles, but none of the roles in here is actually super amazing. Deathproof, Supersaint, Roleblocker are all largely anti-town roles anyway, or at least they are much better for scum than they are for town, so it's good to know who these folks are.
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Re: M111: Super Smash Bros Melee (Day 1)
« Reply #117 on: December 19, 2017, 09:42:18 am »

I think you're underestimating the benefits to town PRs mcmc. It's hard to know given the closed nature of Arch's balancing, but I'm guessing town has more to do at night than scum does, and even the powers that are most useful for scum (like Roleblocker) are made awkward by a full flavor claim as faust said. Meanwhile, town protective roles have a better idea of how to target.

Scum still has ample opportunity to lie and possibly getting caught, btw.

PPE: Also agree with this.
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mcmcsalot

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Re: M111: Super Smash Bros Melee (Day 1)
« Reply #118 on: December 19, 2017, 09:49:15 am »

Hmm okay I think I see what you guys are saying I guess I just have a  slightly different view on the roles (which I could be  wrong about)
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Wins: M19, M21, M23, M24, M26, M39, M91, M94, M102, M104, M107, M114, M115
Losses: M20, M22, M25, M27, M30, M31, M35, M38, M40, M42, M46, M60, M90, M93, M96, M98, M100, M101, M106, M111, M113
Winrate: 38.2%(13/34) 29.6%(8/27), 71.4%(5/7)

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Re: M111: Super Smash Bros Melee (Day 1)
« Reply #119 on: December 19, 2017, 09:49:38 am »

As far as scumhunting goes

vote: robz for bringing up massclaim in the way he did, satirical comments with an undertone of pushing us in a direction isn’t his style.
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Winrate: 38.2%(13/34) 29.6%(8/27), 71.4%(5/7)

faust

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Re: M111: Super Smash Bros Melee (Day 1)
« Reply #120 on: December 19, 2017, 10:03:36 am »

Maybe it is worth it to look at all possible roles to see which ones benefit from claiming.

1. [Mario] - (Novice Vanilla Cop) - Scum cannot block him. Redirection is also dangerous.
2. [Yoshi] - (Roleblocker) - Can effectively block the most anti-town potential role.
3. [Donkey Kong] - (Odd-Night Strong-willed Bodyguard) - Can save the strongest town PRs much more effectively.
4. [Link] - (Jack-Of-All-Trades) - 1-shot Tracker, 1-shot Doctor, 1-shot Ascetic - Doctor gets better, Tracker cannot be blocked.
5. [Samus] - (Encrypting 2-shot Sensoring Detective) - Doesn't matter much here, but scum cannot block.
6. [Fox] - (2-shot Diverter) - Not sure town should use this, but it could help redirect a nightkill, and the odds are improved with claiming.
7. [Pikachu] - (1-shot Lightning Rod) - I guess knowing what roles could be in the game makes it easier to decide when to pull the trigger.
8. [Captain Falcon] - (Modified Flavor Cop) - Mostly rendered useless unless scum decide to fakeclaim.
9. [Ness] - (1-shot Bus Driver) - See Fox. Improved, if town decides to use it.
10. [Peach] - (Self-Watcher) - We can actually use this to confirm some players as "not doing anything else", which is pretty good. Otherwise would be very meh.
11. [Bowser] - (Supersaint) - That is mostly a super anti-town role and we should make extra sure we know who it is.
12. [Zelda] - (1-shot Commuter) - This is weaker if scum knows to avoid killing them.
13. [Sheik] - (Even-Night Ninja Doctor) - Doctoring will be more effective.
14. [Ice Climbers] - (1-shot Deathproof) - I think being lynchproof is worse for town than being bulletproof is good, so we should know this.
15. [Kirby] - (Universal Backup) - Well... depends.
16. [Marth] - (Tracker) - Cannot be blocked.
17. [Jigglypuff] - (1-shot Paranoid Gun Owner) - Town can avoid targeting, so can scum. This is more dangerous in scum's hands, so this is probably good overall.
18. [Falco] - (Ascetic) - We don't have to waste actions on them. Good.
19. [Ganondorf] -  (1-shot Limited Vigilante) - Well, they don't really get more information relevant to them.
20. [Luigi] - (Non-Consecutive Night Sidekick) - Same as above; this is a form of doctoring and will be better.
21. [Roy] - (Motion Detector) - We can effectively prevent scum non-targeting roles from preforming the nightkill.
22. [Dr. Mario] - (Pill Vendor) - Whoever receives the pill will know where it came from. Not sure how much of a difference that makes, but it's probably better as you'd want to target townies.
23. [Young Link] - (Jack-Of-All-Trades) - 1-shot Self-Watcher, 1-shot Roleblocker, 1-shot Bodyguard - RB and Bodyguard are more effective.
24. [Pichu] - (Weak Visitor) - Can announce target each day. If redirected, it may out the Redirector.
25. [Mr. Game and Watch] - (Neighborizer) - Can target worthwhile targets (investigative probably).
26. [Mewtwo] - (2-shot Inverting Redirector) - Having meses with scum's answers potentially. This could lead to all sorts of interesting interactions. Not really sure how it would play. It would arguably be bad for us if scum knew that Mewtwo wasn't in the game.

PPE: 3
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mcmcsalot

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Re: M111: Super Smash Bros Melee (Day 1)
« Reply #121 on: December 19, 2017, 10:14:35 am »

I definitely had the wrong opinion about deathproof, you are right that lynchproof is much scarier than bulletproof I also agree with a lot of the benefits to all the redirection. The one thing I don’t see is how fox gets better knowing people’s roles because I just think it makes it more likely the doc dies as opposed to being able to doc claimed roles later but I do think a flavor claim is a net benefit at this point.
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Wins: M19, M21, M23, M24, M26, M39, M91, M94, M102, M104, M107, M114, M115
Losses: M20, M22, M25, M27, M30, M31, M35, M38, M40, M42, M46, M60, M90, M93, M96, M98, M100, M101, M106, M111, M113
Winrate: 38.2%(13/34) 29.6%(8/27), 71.4%(5/7)

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Re: M111: Super Smash Bros Melee (Day 1)
« Reply #122 on: December 19, 2017, 10:25:42 am »

Here, I'll start even, so we can just get on with it.

I'm Captain Falcon.

faust

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Re: M111: Super Smash Bros Melee (Day 1)
« Reply #123 on: December 19, 2017, 10:35:11 am »

Here, I'll start even, so we can just get on with it.

I'm Captain Falcon.
That is actually a good start. Now scum can't really fakeclaim and we don't have to worry endlessly about claiming order.

I am Sheik.
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Re: M111: Super Smash Bros Melee (Day 1)
« Reply #124 on: December 19, 2017, 10:39:14 am »

I am Link.

Before you check: yes, Robz is in the game. Please don't lynch me Robz.
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