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[Archetype]

M111: Super Smash Bros Melee

Master Hand: Archetype   
Crazy Hand: iguanaiguana   

Ready to Fight:
1. mcmcsalot
2. ashersky Lynched D3. He was Bowser, the Vanilla Good
3. Galzria
4. DatSwan Lynched D2. He was Pikachu, the Vanilla Good
5. Robz888
6. seanbean EFHW Killed N2. She was Marth, the Good Tracker
7. AndrewisFTTW Eevee
8. faust Killed N1. He was Sheik, the Vanilla Good
9. Joseph2302 Lynched D1. He was Yoshi, the Good Roleblocker
10. gkrieg13
11. Teproc
12. chairs theorel
13. IDontPlayThisGame
14. O

Commentators: 2.7, Roadrunner7671


The Rules:

The Golden Rule:

Please remember that this is a game and your main objective is to have fun!  Be considerate of each other, don’t get personal, and enjoy the game.

Please read The Civility Pledge before signing up for any mafia game on this site.  If you have not /pledged there, you cannot play.

Excessive personal attacks or uncivil behavior may be dealt with by modifiers or modkills.

The Standard Rules:
1. No communication between players outside of the game thread or shared QTs at any time. This includes passing references, jokes, or cases in other games or threads, whether in context or not.
2. If the game thread is locked, do not post. If you are unsure if something is locked, ask the mod by PM.
3. Direct or verbatim quoting of mod-provided information is strictly forbidden. Paraphrasing is okay.
4. Actions with instructions that do not specify a game state will be resolved in the order they are received.
5. Players must post once every 24 hours.
6. Do not edit or delete posts, ever. If you need to clarify or correct something, post again.
7. Invisible text, font size less than 10, and spoiler tags are not allowed.
8. Cryptography is not allowed.
9. The time between a lynch being reached and a flip being provided is called twilight. All players may continue posting during this time, including the lynched player.
10. Dead players may not post in thread or QT, except their Role QT. A lynched player is not "dead" until a flip has been provided.
11. Personal multimedia, such as video or audio recordings, are not allowed in the game thread.

The Voting Rules:
1. Votes should be in this format: Vote: Playername. Unambigiuous nicknames are acceptable.
2. Unvotes should be in this format: Unvote or Unvote: Playername.
3. Unvotes are not required if changing your vote from one player to another.
4. You may Vote: No Lynch. If a majority is reached here, no lynch occurs.
5. Lynches occur when a simple majority (rounded up) of living players is reached. Once reached, a lynch cannot be undone.
6. If a majority lynch is not reached by the Day's deadline, no lynch occurs.

The Rest:
1. Blue text is reserved for the Mod. No other player may use it.
2. If you have an issue or problem with the game, please PM the Mod. Do not post complaints in the game thread.
3. Mods make mistakes - please point them out gently. If they can be corrected, they will. If irreversible, they will stand as final to be commiserated over after the game.
4. If a mod error disadvantages one faction greatly, the game may be called off.
5. Ask all questions and make all requests directly to the Mod via PM. Questions deemed as "universal" (defined as questions for which the answers should be available to all players) will be requested to be re-posted in the Game Thread and answered there.
6. One prod will be issued after 48 hours without posting in the game thread. Players are subject to replacement or modkill after one prod.
7. All rule violations will be dealt with according to their severity, as determined by the mod.
8. Each player will receive their own QT, regardless of role. Don't quote from it.

Deadlines:
1. Days will last seven IRL days.
2. Nights will last two IRL days.
3. Nights may be shortened in certain cases to speed up the game, but only if no player opposes it.

[Archetype]

Setup Information
In a world...where the majority of SSBM characters are actually competitively viable...

This is a Normal, Semi-Open Mafia game for at least 12 players designed by Archetype. It is based off the popular video game Super Smash Bros Melee. In this game, there are 15 (at least, for now ) possible characters each player can be and each has a role potentially associate with them (listed in the post below). The manner in which these characters are distributed and influence the game are described as follows.

Choose your character!
When you sign up (or, at least, before the game begins), PM me a list of Super Smash Bros Melee characters (as listed below) ranked from most desired to least. This list can be updated before the game's start time and will never be revealed (and your personal list should not be discussed before the game starts). You need not list every character and it may be strategically advantageous not to. Once the game begins, players will be assigned their character based on the list they submitted.

Assignment works as follows:
1) Each player will be ranked based on the number of characters in their list. Players with the least number of characters in their list will be at the top of the ranking. Ties between players with an equal number of listed characters will be decided randomly.
2) Starting at the top of the player ranking list and moving downwards, each player will be given the character at the top of their list (their most desired one) that has not already been assigned to another player.
3) If, when attempting to assign a character to a player, all characters in their list have already been assigned to other players, they will be moved to the bottom of the player ranking.
4) Continue assigning characters down the rank in this manner until only those who have no available characters on their character list remain. Assign each of these players a random character from the list of remaining available ones.

***NOTE: Who gets assigned to be which character is NOT public information.***

Ready....Go!
Once each player has a character, three are chosen to be aligned with Evil (more if more people sign up). They will be given a factional chat topic and a kill. They will also be given a factional 2-shot Oracle detailed below:

Twice during the game at night, one Evil player may ask the Master Hand or Crazy Hand a Yes/No question about the game's setup. Questions can only be about the game state as it were when the game started and never specify player names in the game. For example: "Is Archetype Sheik?" and "Has Sheik ever targeted Zelda?" are both illegal but "Are Sheik and Zelda in the game?" or "Is Sheik Vanilla?" are both legal.

The remaining will be aligned with Good. Their respective wincons are listed below:

Evil: You win if the majority of players aligned are Evil or nothing can prevent it from occurring.

Good: You win if no Evil players are alive.

Each player will either have the power associated with them as detailed below or simply be a Vanilla member of their faction, depending on balancing. Balancing will be determined based on which characters are chosen to be included in the game and which ones end up being good or evil. It is guaranteed that at least one player will be Vanilla.

[Archetype]

The Characters

1. [Mario] - (Novice Vanilla Cop) - Each night after Night 1, you may target one player. You will be told their role in the form of Vanilla/Not Vanilla.
2. [Yoshi] - (Roleblocker) - Each night you may target one player. All actions they use that night will fail.
3. [Donkey Kong] - (Odd-Night Strong-willed Bodyguard) - Each night you MUST target one player. Any killing actions that target them will target you instead. On odd nights, all actions you use cannot be blocked or redirected by other players’ actions.
4. [Link] - (Jack-Of-All-Trades) - 1-shot Tracker (Target a player to find out who they target), 1-shot Doctor (Protect a target from a killing action), 1-shot Ascetic (Block all non-killing actions)
5. [Samus] - (Encrypting 2-shot Sensoring Detective) - While you are alive, the Evil players can use their factional chat during the day. Twice during the game at night, you may choose one of two groups: players on the lynch wagon from the previous day or those off of it. You will be told how many Evil players in that group have used their faction's kill at least once before up to that day.
6. [Fox] - (2-shot Diverter) - At night twice during the game, you may target one player. All actions that target you that night will target that player instead.
7. [Pikachu] - (1-shot Lightning Rod) - At night once during the game, you may choose to use this power. All other players actions will target you instead of their intended target.
8. [Captain Falcon] - (Modified Flavor Cop) - Each night you may target one player. You will be told their Flavor Name. When you die, a list of all flavor names you have ever detected will be revealed publicly.
9. [Ness] - (1-shot Bus Driver) - At night once during the game you may target one player and then another. Any actions that target the first player will instead target the second and vice versa.
10. [Peach] - (Self-Watcher) - Each night you will be told the names of all players who targeted you that night.
11. [Bowser] - (Supersaint) - If you are lynched, you will also kill whoever cast the hammer vote.
12. [Zelda] - (1-shot Commuter) - At night once during the game you may choose to use this power. All actions that would normally target you will fail instead - guaranteed. Cannot be used in conjunction with any other actions.
13. [Sheik] - (Even-Night Ninja Doctor) - Each night you MUST target one player. They will be protected from one killing action. On even nights, all actions you take cannot be detected by other players’ actions used that night.
14. [Ice Climbers] - (1-shot Deathproof) - The first time you would be killed (including lynches), you will survive.
15. [Kirby] - (Universal Backup) - When the first non-Vanilla player dies, you will inherit their powers. If a X-shot PR dies with no shots left, it will not be valid for inheritance.
16. [Marth] - (Tracker) - Each night you may target one player. You will be told the names of all players they targeted that night. You will be told "No Result" if your action was blocked.
17. [Jigglypuff] - (1-shot Paranoid Gun Owner) - At night once during the game you may choose to use this power. All players who target you with an action will be killed.
18. [Falco] - (Ascetic) - All non-killing actions that target you each night will fail.
19. [Ganondorf] -  (1-shot Limited Vigilante) - Once during the game at night you may target one player. If they are Vanilla, they will be killed
20. [Luigi] - (Non-Consecutive Night Sidekick) - Every other night, you may target one player. All actions that target them will target you instead.
21. [Roy] - (Motion Detector) - Each night you may target one player. You will be told "Motion Detected" if they targeted anyone or if anyone targeted them and "No Motion Detected" otherwise. You will be told "No Result" if your action was blocked.
22. [Dr. Mario] - (Pill Vendor) - Each night you may target one player. All actions they take that night cannot be blocked or redirected. They will be told they received a pill that night.
23. [Young Link] - (Jack-Of-All-Trades) - 1-shot Self-Watcher (Be told the names of all players who targeted you), 1-shot Roleblocker (Block all actions a player takes), 1-shot Bodyguard (Have all killing actions that target one player target you instead)
24. [Pichu] - (Weak Visitor) - Each night you may target one player. If that player is Evil, you will kill yourself.
25. [Mr. Game and Watch] - (Neighborizer) - Each night (including N0), you may target one player. I will generate a number from 1 to 9 that hasn't been generated before. You will be given a private chat to talk in that is open for a number of IRL days equal to the generated number. Conversation may continue even if one of you is killed during that timespan.
26. [Mewtwo] - (2-shot Inverting Redirector) - Each night you may target one player and then target another. All actions the first player uses will target the second instead. If the first player you target is Evil, their team's Oracle results for that night will be secretly inverted (No instead of Yes and Yes instead of No).

**NOTE: When a player dies, their Alignment {Good/Evil}, [Flavor Name], and (Role Name) will be released**

Action Resolution in case of conflict
1. Commuter
2. Lightning Rod
3. Diverter
4. Bus Driver
5. Bodyguard
6. Sidekick
7. Blocking
8. Redirector
9. Protect
10. Miscellaneous
11. Kill
12. Inspect

[schadd]

/fox

[ashersky]

/innards

[schadd]

>ew redirection
>sensor is mad swingy

[Galzria]

/in

[faust]

>sensor is mad swingy

Agreed. Definitely won't sign up with that role in the game.

[LaLight]

>sensor is mad swingy

Agreed. Definitely won't sign up with that role in the game.

Sensor here is a very weak 1-shot cop, read the description

[faust]

>sensor is mad swingy

Agreed. Definitely won't sign up with that role in the game.

Sensor here is a very weak 1-shot cop, read the description

I read the description and it says that the role can potentially clear >50% of all living players as town, which is usually an instawin for town.

[iguanaiguana]

Hm. Yeah. Therefore it also forces scum to play with at least one on and one off every serious wagon, which is a pretty bad handicap for them.

I guess that's why they get daychat.

[Teproc]

Yeah, it just means scum has to be careful not to be all on-wagon, and poof, the role does basically nothing. Which seems fine to me.

[Archetype]

I like the mind games for scum involved with having an Encrypting Sensor, so I am going to try to fit it in if possible. I changed it a bit to give scum a bit more leeway.

CHALLENGER APPROACHING
Marth the Tracker has joined the cast!

[schadd]

marf!

[schadd]

it's not really an issue since it's closed/designed but i would think samus on town is either anti-town utility or like a really small benefit

[faust]

Everyone in this game is a PR, right? Why is it not labeled RMM?

[faust]

Ah, no, nevermind, I just saw the thing.

[Swowl]

/iiinnnnnnn

[Lekkit]

My main is still missing.

I probably don't have time to play in the upcoming months, so I probably won't join even if he's incorporated.

[pacovf]

Awesome flavour

[faust]

Will players that have been chosen to be Vanilla still retain the flavor names assigned to them in the draft?

[Archetype]

Will players that have been chosen to be Vanilla still retain the flavor names assigned to them in the draft?

Yeah!

[Robz888]

Very tempted.

[Galzria]

/in

Just think - it'll almost be the EoY by the time this gets rolling. Your book will be done by then (Hopefully? Right?) so you'll be good to go!

[schadd]

his what!!?

[Galzria]

his what!!?

The Oxford Dictionary has this to say about "Book":
Noun
"A written or printed work consisting of pages glued or sewn together along one side and bound in covers."

[faust]

Will players that have been chosen to be Vanilla still retain the flavor names assigned to them in the draft?

Yeah!

Ugh. Well then I'm out. This just makes for unfun D1 massclaim stuff.

[faust]

Which is fine really. I should limit myself to 1 game at a time anyway.

[Archetype]

Will players that have been chosen to be Vanilla still retain the flavor names assigned to them in the draft?

Yeah!

Ugh. Well then I'm out. This just makes for unfun D1 massclaim stuff.

ok

CHALLENGER APPROACHING
Jigglypuff the 1-shot Paranoid Gun Owner has joined the cast!

[Archetype]

Very tempted.

[Robz888]

his what!!?

The Oxford Dictionary has this to say about "Book":
Noun
"A written or printed work consisting of pages glued or sewn together along one side and bound in covers."

Yeah, I'm writing a book, got a publisher and everything! Political nonfiction. I suspect many people on these forums will disagree with parts of it, but hopefully everyone can learn something about how others think.

Hey arch, put me down for a tentative /in, but please check with me before the game actually starts!

[Eevee]

I'm in if Robz is. (peer pressure)

[AndrewisFTTW]

/in

[2.71828.....]

/tag

[faust]

Whatevs. /in since schadd doesn't want me in his game.

[faust]

his what!!?

The Oxford Dictionary has this to say about "Book":
Noun
"A written or printed work consisting of pages glued or sewn together along one side and bound in covers."

Yeah, I'm writing a book, got a publisher and everything! Political nonfiction. I suspect many people on these forums will disagree with parts of it, but hopefully everyone can learn something about how others think.

Hey arch, put me down for a tentative /in, but please check with me before the game actually starts!

Personally I was hoping for a novel. Oh well.

[schadd]

Whatevs. /in since schadd doesn't want me in his game.

idk dude... just sayin... have u considered deodorant........

[faust]

Whatevs. /in since schadd doesn't want me in his game.

idk dude... just sayin... have u considered deodorant........

Confirmed: schadd's next game will be deodorant-themed.

[Archetype]

Whatevs. /in since schadd doesn't want me in his game.

YEE

CHALLENGER APPROACHING
Falco the Ascetic has joined the cast!

[schadd]

Whatevs. /in since schadd doesn't want me in his game.

idk dude... just sayin... have u considered deodorant........

Confirmed: schadd's next game will be deodorant-themed.

deodorant is already like the mafia faction in this game lmao

[Robz888]

his what!!?

The Oxford Dictionary has this to say about "Book":
Noun
"A written or printed work consisting of pages glued or sewn together along one side and bound in covers."

Yeah, I'm writing a book, got a publisher and everything! Political nonfiction. I suspect many people on these forums will disagree with parts of it, but hopefully everyone can learn something about how others think.

Hey arch, put me down for a tentative /in, but please check with me before the game actually starts!

Personally I was hoping for a novel. Oh well.

That comes next, hopefully.

[AndrewisFTTW]

his what!!?

The Oxford Dictionary has this to say about "Book":
Noun
"A written or printed work consisting of pages glued or sewn together along one side and bound in covers."

Yeah, I'm writing a book, got a publisher and everything! Political nonfiction. I suspect many people on these forums will disagree with parts of it, but hopefully everyone can learn something about how others think.

Hey arch, put me down for a tentative /in, but please check with me before the game actually starts!

Personally I was hoping for a novel. Oh well.

That comes next, hopefully.

It could probably be treated as a novel depending on your political leanings.

[Joseph2302]

/in

[Archetype]

CHALLENGER APPROACHING
Ganondorf the 1-shot Limited Vigilante has joined the cast!

[Archetype]

CHALLENGER APPROACHING
Luigi the Non-Consecutive Night Sidekick has joined the cast!

[Swowl]

Hey Archetype - first off, thanks for the set up, love Smash this is gonna be fun!
Can I inquire how many "bros" you intend to release into the set up?

[Archetype]

Hey Archetype - first off, thanks for the set up, love Smash this is gonna be fun!
Can I inquire how many "bros" you intend to release into the set up?

All 26 . Originally when designing the roles I was only going to do a few, but didn't want to leave anyone's favorite out. The gradual reveal is just for dramatic effect. Speaking of which

CHALLENGER APPROACHING
Roy the Motion Detector has joined the cast!

[Roadrunner7671]

/tag

[Archetype]

CHALLENGER APPROACHING
Dr. Mario the Pill Vendor has joined the cast!

[Archetype]

CHALLENGER APPROACHING
Young Link the Jack of All Trades has joined the cast!

[gkrieg13]

/in I guess.  Mafia has been kind of meh for me lately, but I guess that is partially just a result of being very busy.

[Teproc]

/in

[IDontPlayThisGame]

/in if there's room

[chairs]

/in

[Archetype]

CHALLENGER APPROACHING
Pichu the Weak Visitor has joined the cast!

[IDontPlayThisGame]

What happens if Pichu is Evil?

[Swowl]

are we gonna roll this or are we waiting for more?

[iguanaiguana]

/tagachu.

[gkrieg13]

Making my list later today

[faust]

Making my list later today

I think Arch said there are two more roles upcoming. I'll wait for that to happen.

[Archetype]

What happens if Pichu is Evil?

Nothing

are we gonna roll this or are we waiting for more?

I'll close signups soon-ish. Probably next Friday as that's when my final exams get done. I also want to confirm with Robz and by extension Eevee.

[AndrewisFTTW]

What happens if Pichu is Evil?

Nothing

are we gonna roll this or are we waiting for more?

I'll close signups soon-ish. Probably next Friday as that's when my final exams get done. I also want to confirm with Robz and by extension Eevee.

Your definition of "soon-ish" differs from mine but it's all good. I can wait!

[Archetype]

CHALLENGER APPROACHING
Mr. Game and Watch the Neighborizer has joined the cast!

CHALLENGER APPROACHING
Mewtwo the 2-shot Inverting Redirector has joined the cast!

All Characters have been revealed

In addition to their factional kill and factional chat, Evil players will also be given a factional 2-shot Oracle:

Twice during the game at night, one Evil player may ask the Master Hand or Crazy Hand a Yes/No question about the game's setup. Questions can only be about the game state as it were when the game started and never specify player names in the game. For example: "Is Archetype Sheik?" and "Has Sheik ever targeted Zelda?" are both illegal but "Are Sheik and Zelda in the game?" or "Is Sheik Vanilla?" are both legal.

Also, please put your hands together for the your co-mod Crazy Hand: iguanaiguana!

A few updates have been made to previous characters. Samus is now 2-shot and Donkey Kong and Sheik are now Compulsive. If you haven't submitted your character list or would like to submit an updated one, please do so soon.

[O]

/in

[Archetype]

Signups will be closed December 14th. Make sure you submit your character lists by then. The game will then begin that next Sunday or Monday

[Eevee]

In (if there's room)

[Archetype]

In (if there's room)

Of course!

[IDontPlayThisGame]

Does Pill Vendor or Lightning Rod resolve first if both are used the same night?

[IDontPlayThisGame]

Does Pill Vendor or Lightning Rod resolve first if both are used the same night?

I haven't played with most of these roles before.

[Archetype]

Does Pill Vendor or Lightning Rod resolve first if both are used the same night?

I haven't played with most of these roles before.

I'll put up a night action resolution for everything here pretty soon, but Lightning Rod would resolve first. But don't be afraid to ask questions, I know a few are a little non-standard.

[schadd]

out

[faust]

Some random action resolution questions:

1. What happens when Ness targets Fox?
2. If Ness targets any Ascetic, will their action fail completely?
3. Does Sheik having performed a Ninja kill count for the purposes of Samus?
4. Does Sheik Ninja targeting Jigglypuff trigger the PGO?
5. Generally speaking, in which order do the various Redirectors resolve if conflicting?

[mcmcsalot]

/in

[Archetype]

Some random action resolution questions:

1. What happens when Ness targets Fox?
2. If Ness targets any Ascetic, will their action fail completely?
3. Does Sheik having performed a Ninja kill count for the purposes of Samus?
4. Does Sheik Ninja targeting Jigglypuff trigger the PGO?
5. Generally speaking, in which order do the various Redirectors resolve if conflicting?

I just went ahead and posted the action resolution since I'll have to do it eventually. I'll still answer these questions, though.

1. Diverting will resolve before Bus Driving, so Ness will target whoever Fox chooses to Divert to. If that ends up being the same person as Ness' other target, nothing will happen.
2. Yes, both targets must be valid.
3. Hmmm, I am going to go ahead and say yes that Samus can detect the ninja kill - but only because scum already has a way around it with the encryptor.
4. No
5. See the action resolution

[faust]

The posted action resolution chain does not account for Bodyguard's redirection.

[Archetype]

The posted action resolution chain does not account for Bodyguard's redirection.

Knew I was forgetting one. It's fixed.

[IDontPlayThisGame]

Depending on when the game starts, I may be VLA for the first couple days.

[Eevee]

I need to /out, sorry guys. To busy to put in a decent effort.

edit: apparently too busy to spell too correctly as well

[Archetype]

I need to /out, sorry guys. To busy to put in a decent effort.

edit: apparently too busy to spell too correctly as well

Depending on when the game starts, I may be VLA for the first couple days.

It'll likely start either Sunday or Monday.

[seanbean]

/in

[Teproc]

/in

With that username, you're just begging to get lynched on D1.

But welcome !

[Archetype]

/in

With that username, you're just begging to get lynched on D1.

But welcome !

To let everyone know, seanbean is someone I know IRL. He's a big Melee fan so I figured I'd invite him.

Signups Closed. The game will begin Sunday or Monday

[Archetype]

The setup has been created and Personal QTs have been sent out. Please /confirm in them to verify receipt. The game will begin Monday at 7:00 PM as long as everyone has confirmed by that time.

[Archetype]

To clarify with the player count increasing beyond the setups initial capacity, there are at least 3 Evil players. There are no "Traitor" or "Survivor" variants of any kind.

[Archetype]

14 fighters from universes all over are brought together by the Master Hand and Crazy Hand to fight for their amusement. There are some who are Good while others are Evil, but which character belongs to which side is a mystery. Only one thing is for certain: only one team can achieve victory.


Day 1 Start

Vote Count 1.0

Not Voting (14): mcmcsalot, ashersky, Galzria, DatSwan, Robz888, seanbean, AndrewisFTTW, faust, Joseph2302, gkrieg13, Teproc, chairs, IDontPlayThisGame, O
With 14 alive it takes 8 to lynch. Day 1 will end December 27th at 7:00 PM (deadline extended two days due to Christmas).

Thread Unlocked

[chairs]

FIRST!

vote: ashersky for not posting.

[IDontPlayThisGame]

I'm pretty sure it'll come up eventually and I'd rather get it over with now. I'm reasonably certain that there are only three Evil players (5+ seems absurd and 4 seems unlikely because 13 player games tend to have three scum and this is only 14 players). I think the only relevant part of not knowing the exact number of scum is that we don't know when it's MyLo/LyLo. I also don't think there's anything else to be gained from discussing this, but I could be wrong.

[Galzria]

FIRST!

vote: ashersky for not posting.

Why is Ashersky not posting scummy?

[Robz888]

Hello! Every time I post, please, someone, reply "GO FINISH YOUR BOOK."

Are we going to massclaim right away, or have a long argument about it and then massclaim anyway?

[Galzria]

Hello! Every time I post, please, someone, reply "GO FINISH YOUR BOOK."

Are we going to massclaim right away, or have a long argument about it and then massclaim anyway?

Robz, go finish your book!

[Galzria]

Hello! Every time I post, please, someone, reply "GO FINISH YOUR BOOK."

Are we going to massclaim right away, or have a long argument about it and then massclaim anyway?

I'm always against it. But I'm always willing to listen to arguments for it. Occasionally it's actually beneficial.

[IDontPlayThisGame]

Hello! Every time I post, please, someone, reply "GO FINISH YOUR BOOK."

Are we going to massclaim right away, or have a long argument about it and then massclaim anyway?

I'm always against it. But I'm always willing to listen to arguments for it. Occasionally it's actually beneficial.

Agreed. I don't see how it helps more than it hurts here, but I'll listen to why someone thinks it's pro-town.

[O]

booooo massclaims boooooooo

[Robz888]

Cool, we've elected to argue about it and then do it anyway.

[chairs]

FIRST!

vote: ashersky for not posting.

Why is Ashersky not posting scummy?

He's actively preventing us from getting a read on him by his inaction.

Hello! Every time I post, please, someone, reply "GO FINISH YOUR BOOK."

Are we going to massclaim right away, or have a long argument about it and then massclaim anyway?

Like... maybe the solution is we don't massclaim? Or we discuss -what- we're going to massclaim?

IDK.

FWIW: If we're going to do this, I think we all claim how many heroes we listed first. Then we claim flavor name. Then we claim our lists.

I think that maximizes the opportunity for somebody to get caught in a lie.

[faust]

The good thing about this setup is that we can mass flavor claim, which limits scum's fakeclaim options without directly giving away our PRs.

What's definitely not worth it is some convoluted plan like chairs' one where we spend all of D1 with pointless claims that are not in any way alignment-indicative because list submission happened before alignment assingment...

So vote: chairs

[Robz888]

The good thing about this setup is that we can mass flavor claim, which limits scum's fakeclaim options without directly giving away our PRs.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Boxing in scum seems like it could be a potentially strong move.

[faust]

The good thing about this setup is that we can mass flavor claim, which limits scum's fakeclaim options without directly giving away our PRs.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Boxing in scum seems like it could be a potentially strong move.

I think I agree. Also, go finish your book!

[AndrewisFTTW]

I was going to make a political joke about Robz's book but it might've pissed him off and nobody wants anything to do with politics in a mafia game so nevermind.

[chairs]

My "convoluted plan" was just an idea on how we might be able to catch scum in lies about PRs.

[faust]

My "convoluted plan" was just an idea on how we might be able to catch scum in lies about PRs.

Yep, on an issue where scum has no inclination whatsoever to lie. The most likely thing to happen is for someone to mess up their claim and thus giving scum an easy mislynch target.

[Joseph2302]

Hello! Every time I post, please, someone, reply "GO FINISH YOUR BOOK."

Are we going to massclaim right away, or have a long argument about it and then massclaim anyway?

I'm the SK

[Joseph2302]

Vote: Robz as Obv!scum

[Joseph2302]

Actually Vote: gkrieg because mislynching him is fun

[Swowl]

since the name of your pokemon is not absolutely correlated to you having that PR, I think there may be some merit in a flavor claim.
Thing is since you get to bid prior to knowing your alignment... does the claim actually help us all that much?

[faust]

since the name of your pokemon is not absolutely correlated to you having that PR, I think there may be some merit in a flavor claim.
Thing is since you get to bid prior to knowing your alignment... does the claim actually help us all that much?

This is what it does:

- scum cannot switch claims among one another if it suits them
- scum can never directly counterclaim a PR
- scum cannot claim PR when they are about to be lynched in order to out another PR
- if scummy things happen (Roleblocking, Redirection etc.) and we find out, scum will have to own up to it. This strongly limits the amount of damage they can safely do with their PRs.

And, on the minus side:
- it is easier for scum to target PRs that would potentially be dangerous to them.

[faust]

@Archetype: Can you confirm that alignment has been assigned independently of which players received which flavor names?

[faust]

And another:

Can scum use both their Oracle shots in the same night?

[faust]

There's more relevant stuff... sorry about all the questions.

When will scum receive the answers from the Oracle?

[Teproc]

The more I think about it, the more I like a flavor claim. It makes everyone's night actions better (on both sides), which is good if we have many PRs, and if we don't have many... well I guess we'd better hope we don't have the ones scum is most worried about ? I guess it's kind of a balancing the game thing either way: if we got underpowered, scum will be killing VTs, otherwise they'll get a straight beeline to our best PRs ? But we get coordination...

I think I'm fine with flavor claim. Definitely not actual role claim though. Don't know about claiming lists and such, I guess it can go along with flavor claiming ? I suppose that's the only thing that might possibly catch scum.

[faust]

I think I'm fine with flavor claim. Definitely not actual role claim though. Don't know about claiming lists and such, I guess it can go along with flavor claiming ? I suppose that's the only thing that might possibly catch scum.

And how would that happen?

[Teproc]

I think I'm fine with flavor claim. Definitely not actual role claim though. Don't know about claiming lists and such, I guess it can go along with flavor claiming ? I suppose that's the only thing that might possibly catch scum.

And how would that happen?

Well, not if they tell the truth, obviously.

I guess claiming lists in and of itself doesn't make it harder for scum to lie. Maybe it makes it easier actually, if they claim last. So maybe we should stick to flavor ? And if someone spots an inconsistency we can have specific lists claims.

[faust]

I think I'm fine with flavor claim. Definitely not actual role claim though. Don't know about claiming lists and such, I guess it can go along with flavor claiming ? I suppose that's the only thing that might possibly catch scum.

And how would that happen?

Well, not if they tell the truth, obviously.

I guess claiming lists in and of itself doesn't make it harder for scum to lie. Maybe it makes it easier actually, if they claim last. So maybe we should stick to flavor ? And if someone spots an inconsistency we can have specific lists claims.

Yes, but what motivation does scum have to lie?

[Teproc]

I'm sure you can think of a few. I don't really see the point in outlining them here though. It's a risk for them, and telling the truth is certainly simpler, but scum lying is always a possibility worth considering.

[mcmcsalot]

So I’m generally very anti any claim because I feel like the advantage it gives (forcing scum to not lie later) is not worth the advantage we lose (keeping town prs safe).

I get here that since claiming flavor doesn’t guarantee the person is a pr it’s a little better. But I still don’t see the huge benefit. Do we really fear scum counterclaiming people or pretending to be a different role then they are. Is that really worth just telling mafia who might be deathproof a universal backup, a doctor, a supersaint, a roleblocker ect.

I’m still in favor of just trying to scum hunt traditionally and getting some advantage out of blocking a night kill, or killing scum via town prs.

Also as people said we bid on powers before alignment so it’s not like in draft games where knowing what scum went for helps us. We literally are just giving scum all our possible pr info so in two days they can’t lie.

[mcmcsalot]

This is what it does:

- scum cannot switch claims among one another if it suits them
- scum can never directly counterclaim a PR
- scum cannot claim PR when they are about to be lynched in order to out another PR
- if scummy things happen (Roleblocking, Redirection etc.) and we find out, scum will have to own up to it. This strongly limits the amount of damage they can safely do with their PRs.

And, on the minus side:
- it is easier for scum to target PRs that would potentially be dangerous to them.

Your first point I don’t see how that super helpful. Like scum can still switch claims now if they want (they could have daychat) and I don’t see how scum switching claims here is super helpful to scum at all.
Points two and theee I get, no counter claim and no last minute claim, but I feel counterclaims are not the hardest thing to figure out and at worst it’s a 1 for 1. As for claims before lynch that’s not a huge problem in standard mafia games, people can claim other people’s roles accidentally, and there could be results that prove people wrong.
Your fourth point I had not thought of. I see the advantage to locking scum into not doing scummy things but it also prevents town from catching scum doing scummy things. No ability to catch scum lying if they can’t lie.

I still stick with not wanting to massclaim

[faust]

So I’m generally very anti any claim because I feel like the advantage it gives (forcing scum to not lie later) is not worth the advantage we lose (keeping town prs safe).

I get here that since claiming flavor doesn’t guarantee the person is a pr it’s a little better. But I still don’t see the huge benefit. Do we really fear scum counterclaiming people or pretending to be a different role then they are. Is that really worth just telling mafia who might be deathproof a universal backup, a doctor, a supersaint, a roleblocker ect.

I mean yes it is. I might have a different opinion with different roles, but none of the roles in here is actually super amazing. Deathproof, Supersaint, Roleblocker are all largely anti-town roles anyway, or at least they are much better for scum than they are for town, so it's good to know who these folks are.

[Teproc]

I think you're underestimating the benefits to town PRs mcmc. It's hard to know given the closed nature of Arch's balancing, but I'm guessing town has more to do at night than scum does, and even the powers that are most useful for scum (like Roleblocker) are made awkward by a full flavor claim as faust said. Meanwhile, town protective roles have a better idea of how to target.

Scum still has ample opportunity to lie and possibly getting caught, btw.

PPE: Also agree with this.

[mcmcsalot]

Hmm okay I think I see what you guys are saying I guess I just have a  slightly different view on the roles (which I could be  wrong about)

[mcmcsalot]

As far as scumhunting goes

vote: robz for bringing up massclaim in the way he did, satirical comments with an undertone of pushing us in a direction isn’t his style.

[faust]

Maybe it is worth it to look at all possible roles to see which ones benefit from claiming.

1. [Mario] - (Novice Vanilla Cop) - Scum cannot block him. Redirection is also dangerous.
2. [Yoshi] - (Roleblocker) - Can effectively block the most anti-town potential role.
3. [Donkey Kong] - (Odd-Night Strong-willed Bodyguard) - Can save the strongest town PRs much more effectively.
4. [Link] - (Jack-Of-All-Trades) - 1-shot Tracker, 1-shot Doctor, 1-shot Ascetic - Doctor gets better, Tracker cannot be blocked.
5. [Samus] - (Encrypting 2-shot Sensoring Detective) - Doesn't matter much here, but scum cannot block.
6. [Fox] - (2-shot Diverter) - Not sure town should use this, but it could help redirect a nightkill, and the odds are improved with claiming.
7. [Pikachu] - (1-shot Lightning Rod) - I guess knowing what roles could be in the game makes it easier to decide when to pull the trigger.
8. [Captain Falcon] - (Modified Flavor Cop) - Mostly rendered useless unless scum decide to fakeclaim.
9. [Ness] - (1-shot Bus Driver) - See Fox. Improved, if town decides to use it.
10. [Peach] - (Self-Watcher) - We can actually use this to confirm some players as "not doing anything else", which is pretty good. Otherwise would be very meh.
11. [Bowser] - (Supersaint) - That is mostly a super anti-town role and we should make extra sure we know who it is.
12. [Zelda] - (1-shot Commuter) - This is weaker if scum knows to avoid killing them.
13. [Sheik] - (Even-Night Ninja Doctor) - Doctoring will be more effective.
14. [Ice Climbers] - (1-shot Deathproof) - I think being lynchproof is worse for town than being bulletproof is good, so we should know this.
15. [Kirby] - (Universal Backup) - Well... depends.
16. [Marth] - (Tracker) - Cannot be blocked.
17. [Jigglypuff] - (1-shot Paranoid Gun Owner) - Town can avoid targeting, so can scum. This is more dangerous in scum's hands, so this is probably good overall.
18. [Falco] - (Ascetic) - We don't have to waste actions on them. Good.
19. [Ganondorf] -  (1-shot Limited Vigilante) - Well, they don't really get more information relevant to them.
20. [Luigi] - (Non-Consecutive Night Sidekick) - Same as above; this is a form of doctoring and will be better.
21. [Roy] - (Motion Detector) - We can effectively prevent scum non-targeting roles from preforming the nightkill.
22. [Dr. Mario] - (Pill Vendor) - Whoever receives the pill will know where it came from. Not sure how much of a difference that makes, but it's probably better as you'd want to target townies.
23. [Young Link] - (Jack-Of-All-Trades) - 1-shot Self-Watcher, 1-shot Roleblocker, 1-shot Bodyguard - RB and Bodyguard are more effective.
24. [Pichu] - (Weak Visitor) - Can announce target each day. If redirected, it may out the Redirector.
25. [Mr. Game and Watch] - (Neighborizer) - Can target worthwhile targets (investigative probably).
26. [Mewtwo] - (2-shot Inverting Redirector) - Having meses with scum's answers potentially. This could lead to all sorts of interesting interactions. Not really sure how it would play. It would arguably be bad for us if scum knew that Mewtwo wasn't in the game.

PPE: 3

[mcmcsalot]

I definitely had the wrong opinion about deathproof, you are right that lynchproof is much scarier than bulletproof I also agree with a lot of the benefits to all the redirection. The one thing I don’t see is how fox gets better knowing people’s roles because I just think it makes it more likely the doc dies as opposed to being able to doc claimed roles later but I do think a flavor claim is a net benefit at this point.

[chairs]

Here, I'll start even, so we can just get on with it.

I'm Captain Falcon.

[faust]

Here, I'll start even, so we can just get on with it.

I'm Captain Falcon.

That is actually a good start. Now scum can't really fakeclaim and we don't have to worry endlessly about claiming order.

I am Sheik.

[Teproc]

I am Link.

Before you check: yes, Robz is in the game. Please don't lynch me Robz.

[mcmcsalot]

I am Mr. Game and Watch

[gkrieg13]

Hi all. Just getting here. vote: Joseph for trying to mislynch me. Massclaim seems fine, but I think it gives scum more information. If it is good, why don’t we do this ever game?  Just claim some random PR at the beginning for everyone to lock scum into a fake claim?

[mcmcsalot]

Hi all. Just getting here. vote: Joseph for trying to mislynch me. Massclaim seems fine, but I think it gives scum more information. If it is good, why don’t we do this ever game?  Just claim some random PR at the beginning for everyone to lock scum into a fake claim?

The difference here is that flavor locks you into one power but doesn’t guarantee you are a pr or vanilla.

[Teproc]

Hi all. Just getting here. vote: Joseph for trying to mislynch me. Massclaim seems fine, but I think it gives scum more information. If it is good, why don’t we do this ever game?  Just claim some random PR at the beginning for everyone to lock scum into a fake claim?

Because that's not a comparable thing at all ? You could have multiple people claiming the same PR in the situation you're describing, among other things.

[Robz888]

I'm Ice Climbers.

[IDontPlayThisGame]

I'm Ice Climbers.

Go write your book!

I'm Pichu

[Joseph2302]

I'm Yoshi

[mcmcsalot]

I know realize we may have rushed into this claim poorly due to the oracle power.

Mafia can now pick the two strongest town pr’s and ask “is X vanilla?”

In fact they can ask any yes/no question about the setup and if worded correctly they could probably get even more info.

[mcmcsalot]

I know now realize we may have rushed into this claim poorly due to the oracle power.

Mafia can now pick the two strongest town pr’s and ask “is X vanilla?”

In fact they can ask any yes/no question about the setup and if worded correctly they could probably get even more info.

FTFM

[Teproc]

I know now realize we may have rushed into this claim poorly due to the oracle power.

Mafia can now pick the two strongest town pr’s and ask “is X vanilla?”

In fact they can ask any yes/no question about the setup and if worded correctly they could probably get even more info.

FTFM

It probably does make the Oracle thing a little stronger, yeah. I still think it's worth doing.

mcmc is townie, btw.

[Archetype]

@Archetype: Can you confirm that alignment has been assigned independently of which players received which flavor names?

Any character could be any alignment

Can scum use both their Oracle shots in the same night?

No. And they receive the results of their Oracle power at the end of the night that they used it in their QT

[gkrieg13]

Hi all. Just getting here. vote: Joseph for trying to mislynch me. Massclaim seems fine, but I think it gives scum more information. If it is good, why don’t we do this ever game?  Just claim some random PR at the beginning for everyone to lock scum into a fake claim?

Because that's not a comparable thing at all ? You could have multiple people claiming the same PR in the situation you're describing, among other things.

You're right.  I'm Mewtwo!

[mcmcsalot]

Hi all. Just getting here. vote: Joseph for trying to mislynch me. Massclaim seems fine, but I think it gives scum more information. If it is good, why don’t we do this ever game?  Just claim some random PR at the beginning for everyone to lock scum into a fake claim?

Because that's not a comparable thing at all ? You could have multiple people claiming the same PR in the situation you're describing, among other things.

You're right.  I'm Mewtwo!

Well that helps.

[ashersky]

vote: idptg

Scumslip?  At any rate, vote-worthy.

[ashersky]

unvote

Misread, never mind.

[ashersky]

I counterclaim momsalon.

[mcmcsalot]

I counterclaim momsalon.

Really? You sure you haven’t mis-read your pm...

[mcmcsalot]

I counterclaim momsalon.

Really? You sure you haven’t mis-read your pm...

I mean I’m guessing this is a joke/call back to mean girls mafia but I’d love for you to be serious and going for some very strange mafia plan.

[AndrewisFTTW]

I am Ganondorf.

[Teproc]

vote: idptg

Scumslip?  At any rate, vote-worthy.

If you're going to do this, you might as well explain what you mean.

[mcmcsalot]

vote: idptg

Scumslip?  At any rate, vote-worthy.

If you're going to do this, you might as well explain what you mean.

Seeing as idp only has 2 posts I’m guessing it’s the one about numbers of scum. Probably read something that he figured was worded from a scum perspective that he reread and realized was wrong.

[Archetype]

Vote Count 1.1

ashersky(1): chairs
chairs(1): faust
gkrieg13(1):Joseph2302
Robz888(1): mcmcsalot
Joseph2302(1): gkrieg13

Not Voting (9): ashersky, Galzria, DatSwan, Robz888, seanbean, AndrewisFTTW, Teproc, IDontPlayThisGame, O

With 14 alive it takes 8 to lynch. Day 1 will end December 27th at 7:00 PM.

[Galzria]

The problem with this exercise is that scum weren't potentially forced into early claiming. I know people don't like lists or orders, but even using the signup list would've been better than whoever/whenever.

If scum haven't yet claimed or are waiting then they know what's safe to fake claim as it gets down to them.

Say, for example, Dr. Mario is in the game and is scum. They see Mario hasn't been claimed so they claim him. Each night they can feed pills to their scummates with relative impunity. If somebody tracks them they can claim to have been copping. Faking cop results down the line isn't all that difficult.

With that said it's pretty much too late to consider that anyway, so Fox, reporting for duty General.

[chairs]

The problem with this exercise is that scum weren't potentially forced into early claiming. I know people don't like lists or orders, but even using the signup list would've been better than whoever/whenever.

If scum haven't yet claimed or are waiting then they know what's safe to fake claim as it gets down to them.

Say, for example, Dr. Mario is in the game and is scum. They see Mario hasn't been claimed so they claim him. Each night they can feed pills to their scummates with relative impunity. If somebody tracks them they can claim to have been copping. Faking cop results down the line isn't all that difficult.

With that said it's pretty much too late to consider that anyway, so Fox, reporting for duty General.

Dangerous to do that with Falcon in the game. Am I vanilla? Am I the modified flavor cop that reveals all his results on death? Can they really afford to take that chance?

[Galzria]

The problem with this exercise is that scum weren't potentially forced into early claiming. I know people don't like lists or orders, but even using the signup list would've been better than whoever/whenever.

If scum haven't yet claimed or are waiting then they know what's safe to fake claim as it gets down to them.

Say, for example, Dr. Mario is in the game and is scum. They see Mario hasn't been claimed so they claim him. Each night they can feed pills to their scummates with relative impunity. If somebody tracks them they can claim to have been copping. Faking cop results down the line isn't all that difficult.

With that said it's pretty much too late to consider that anyway, so Fox, reporting for duty General.

Dangerous to do that with Falcon in the game. Am I vanilla? Am I the modified flavor cop that reveals all his results on death? Can they really afford to take that chance?

It was meant simply as an example, not an "only" possibility. I  originally was thinking in terms of scum having Vig but claiming something else, using it, and us having no easy way to confirm who had lied about their choice because they could just claim to be Vanilla later - but Vig has been claimed so that's ok.

My point was more that a late scum could choose which claim to go for, maximizing the potential for chaos. I didn't really look into which fake claims would be best for them and why - and it doesn't really matter. I'm just old man grumping that we didn't bother to minimize potential scum advantage. I don't think a little organization would've taken that much time out of our day.

[Swowl]

I am the yellow ratpika——chooooo

[chairs]

The problem with this exercise is that scum weren't potentially forced into early claiming. I know people don't like lists or orders, but even using the signup list would've been better than whoever/whenever.

If scum haven't yet claimed or are waiting then they know what's safe to fake claim as it gets down to them.

Say, for example, Dr. Mario is in the game and is scum. They see Mario hasn't been claimed so they claim him. Each night they can feed pills to their scummates with relative impunity. If somebody tracks them they can claim to have been copping. Faking cop results down the line isn't all that difficult.

With that said it's pretty much too late to consider that anyway, so Fox, reporting for duty General.

Dangerous to do that with Falcon in the game. Am I vanilla? Am I the modified flavor cop that reveals all his results on death? Can they really afford to take that chance?

It was meant simply as an example, not an "only" possibility. I  originally was thinking in terms of scum having Vig but claiming something else, using it, and us having no easy way to confirm who had lied about their choice because they could just claim to be Vanilla later - but Vig has been claimed so that's ok.

My point was more that a late scum could choose which claim to go for, maximizing the potential for chaos. I didn't really look into which fake claims would be best for them and why - and it doesn't really matter. I'm just old man grumping that we didn't bother to minimize potential scum advantage. I don't think a little organization would've taken that much time out of our day.

That's fair. I think for me personally I just saw the mass flavor name claim coming and was like "If we get this out of the way sooner, we have more to talk about during D1 than normal, which is cool, and I just want to move on with the game anyway".

[Swowl]

Here is the list of claims so far. Listed in order of the time claimed:

Chairs - Cpt. Falcon
Faust - Sheik
Teproc - Link
MCMC - Mr Game and Watch
Robz - Ice Climbers
IDPTG - Pichu
Joseph - Yoshi
GK - Mewtwo
Andrew - Ganandorf
Galz - Fox
Swan - Pikachu

Not yet claimed:
Ash (or he has. I don't know if it was a joke, but he counter claimed MCMC, who claimed MRGnW)
O
SeanB

[seanbean]

I am Marth.

[O]

kirbs

[Robz888]

Vote: Ash for obvious reasons.

[faust]

So, pending on hearing from ash, we know that mafia has no daychat? That is reassuring.

People I definitely want to leave alive today based on this are gkrieg and seanbean.

[Galzria]

Vote: Ash for obvious reasons.

Bad votes are bad for obvious reasons.

[ashersky]

I’m the real RB, Mcmc, Yuma will back me up.

bowser

[Robz888]

I’m the real RB, Mcmc, Yuma will back me up.

bowser

I should have guessed. That's basically the most ash power ever.

[faust]

@Archetype: Can you confirm that alignment has been assigned independently of which players received which flavor names?

Any character could be any alignment

That doesn't really answer my question by the way, and the evasivaness of it makes me think it is absolutely possible that Arch grouped people with scummier roles into the scum team.

[faust]

kirbs

You didn't even put up a fight! I am disappointed.

[faust]

Vote: Ash for obvious reasons.

Bad votes are bad for obvious reasons.

Yeah, that guy should really go back to writing his book instead of hanging out here placing bad votes.

[faust]

Vote: Joseph

[O]

kirbs

You didn't even put up a fight! I am disappointed.

it looked like the time to put up a fight was 5 claims ago or so 

[faust]

We should note that there are 3 potential redirectors:

Mewtwo (gkrieg)
Fox (Galzria)
Pikachu (DatSwan)

We want to have Pichu's visiting announced each day. But gkrieg and Galzria can mess with that (also Pikachu, but we could probably figure that out). On the plus side, we have Marth and Link's 1-shot Tracker that could detect such a thing, so it would be dangerous for scum. We also have Yoshi who could block them.

[faust]

I am also kind of interested in how the bidding went, but I'm afraid that such discussion won't advance the game. Looking forward to seeing this after the game.

[Swowl]

So, pending on hearing from ash, we know that mafia has no daychat? That is reassuring.

People I definitely want to leave alive today based on this are gkrieg and seanbean.

1) i find it extremely unlikely there is no Samus in the game
2) if it is true .. def could be skum fake claim knowing they don’t have dc so samus isn’t in play

[faust]

So, pending on hearing from ash, we know that mafia has no daychat? That is reassuring.

People I definitely want to leave alive today based on this are gkrieg and seanbean.

1) i find it extremely unlikely there is no Samus in the game
2) if it is true .. def could be skum fake claim knowing they don’t have dc so samus isn’t in play

Why would Samus lie?

[Swowl]

So, pending on hearing from ash, we know that mafia has no daychat? That is reassuring.

People I definitely want to leave alive today based on this are gkrieg and seanbean.

1) i find it extremely unlikely there is no Samus in the game
2) if it is true .. def could be skum fake claim knowing they don’t have dc so samus isn’t in play

Why would Samus lie?

... see point 2.
Why would you now think this is a plausible idea?

[faust]

So, pending on hearing from ash, we know that mafia has no daychat? That is reassuring.

People I definitely want to leave alive today based on this are gkrieg and seanbean.

1) i find it extremely unlikely there is no Samus in the game
2) if it is true .. def could be skum fake claim knowing they don’t have dc so samus isn’t in play

Why would Samus lie?

... see point 2.
Why would you now think this is a plausible idea?

I am confused. What is your conclusion?

Fake claims for scum, especially obvious ones like this, are dangerous when we could have a flavor cop. Of course chairs could be scum too.

[Swowl]

So, pending on hearing from ash, we know that mafia has no daychat? That is reassuring.

People I definitely want to leave alive today based on this are gkrieg and seanbean.

1) i find it extremely unlikely there is no Samus in the game
2) if it is true .. def could be skum fake claim knowing they don’t have dc so samus isn’t in play

Why would Samus lie?

... see point 2.
Why would you now think this is a plausible idea?

I am confused. What is your conclusion?

Fake claims for scum, especially obvious ones like this, are dangerous when we could have a flavor cop. Of course chairs could be scum too.

You are not confused .
I’m not saying it is a thing - or even very likely - I’m just saying that with the lack of claim order it is not a far fedtched idea (especially bc if it is true they do have dc) that they could of been towards the back of claim and be doing it.

[faust]

What is the 'it' they could be doing?!

[faust]

I think I am definitely confused. Please don't tell me whether I'm confused or not, I think I am the best judge of that (... or am I? Maybe I am just confused...)

[Teproc]

Well, I thionk it's relatively straightforward right ? If Samus was higher in Swan's list than what he got, it straight up means someone is lying, right ? Or am I missing something ?

[faust]

Well, I thionk it's relatively straightforward right ? If Samus was higher in Swan's list than what he got, it straight up means someone is lying, right ? Or am I missing something ?

That is true, but did he actually say that he had Samus in his list?

[mcmcsalot]

Well, I thionk it's relatively straightforward right ? If Samus was higher in Swan's list than what he got, it straight up means someone is lying, right ? Or am I missing something ?

I actually don’t think that’s what Swan meant by his wording. I think he just mean A) Samus is a strong power and he’s surprised no one took it, B) in the event no one took it scum knows that because they don’t have day chat and therefor would be able to fake claim it safely. Final conclusion very surprised Saumus hasn’t been claimed (real or fake)

I agree with faust however that due to possibility of a rolecop as well as just the fact that we chose roles before alignment it’s unlikely scum has fake claimed at all.

[faust]

Well, I thionk it's relatively straightforward right ? If Samus was higher in Swan's list than what he got, it straight up means someone is lying, right ? Or am I missing something ?

I actually don’t think that’s what Swan meant by his wording. I think he just mean A) Samus is a strong power and he’s surprised no one took it, B) in the event no one took it scum knows that because they don’t have day chat and therefor would be able to fake claim it safely. Final conclusion very surprised Saumus hasn’t been claimed (real or fake)

I agree with faust however that due to possibility of a rolecop as well as just the fact that we chose roles before alignment it’s unlikely scum has fake claimed at all.

How would scum know that noone took it? It would be entriely possible that someone got Samus, but they are vanilla...

[mcmcsalot]

And yes while I agree we don’t need to discuss lists at this time everyone should go through your list. If you did not get your first choice, someone else has to have gotten that character.

Ppe faust: right so never mind not a safe fake claim for scum. I do think that’s what datswan meant however.

[Teproc]

Right, well if that's what DatSwan meant, I don't think that's worth discussing all that much. I don't agree that it's particularly surprising no one got it.

Let's do a vote:ash. Under the radar!ash is scum!ash, generally.

[faust]

Right, well if that's what DatSwan meant, I don't think that's worth discussing all that much. I don't agree that it's particularly surprising no one got it.

Let's do a vote:ash. Under the radar!ash is scum!ash, generally.

Is this under the radar!ash?

I counterclaim momsalon.

[Teproc]

That was clearly a joke for anyone familiar with Mean Girls Mafia, which is, like, half the people in this game ? I expected ash to have something to say about the flavor claim in some way, shape, or form, but he didn't.

[mcmcsalot]

I’ll vote: ash seemed the joke could only end in unnecessary info being slipped and not in a way that would benefit town.

[mcmcsalot]

So I think not organizing the claim list was good, it made people react geniunly and allowed us to have someone like ash appear, chose not to claim, wait for everyone to claim, then claim a role discourages anyone from hammering him. Quite scummy actually.

Ash what was your list? Don’t see harm in it and it can potentially prove your not a scummy liar.

[mcmcsalot]

@Archetype: Can you confirm that alignment has been assigned independently of which players received which flavor names?

Any character could be any alignment

That doesn't really answer my question by the way, and the evasivaness of it makes me think it is absolutely possible that Arch grouped people with scummier roles into the scum team.

I agree the evasiveness means alignment was not rolled 100% random and then pr/vanilla was decided based on balance. I guess I can ask that specifically and see if arch is willing to answer more directly.

Was allignment rolled 100% random, and then pr/vanilla balancing decided? Or were pr/vanilla decided along with alignment to create an enjoyable balanced game? I’m absolutely fine if you don’t want to answer.

That being said I don’t think even if prs were assigned at the same time as deciding allignment that that means scummy roles went to scum it just means the power distribution is even.

[mcmcsalot]

My last statement aside, I do find it interesting my current scum reads are a supersaint and 1-Shot deathproof and my current town reads are a doctor and joat with doctor.. extra kill power for scum, extra saving for town.

[faust]

So I think not organizing the claim list was good, it made people react geniunly and allowed us to have someone like ash appear, chose not to claim, wait for everyone to claim, then claim a role discourages anyone from hammering him. Quite scummy actually.

Ash what was your list? Don’t see harm in it and it can potentially prove your not a scummy liar.

I support that question, but I don't think ash is particularly scummy for the way he handled the claim.

[mcmcsalot]

Some Pichu interactions:
Mewtwo can kill pichu anytime if they are mafia and can make it look like a townie (pichu's orig target) is mafia. They can also clear a mafia target by making pichu target a townie if his original target is mafia.
If Fox is mafia fox can redirect pichu to town if pichu targets fox making it look like he is cleared.
If pikachu is mafia and pichu is targeting a town player, pikachu can make it look like a townie (pichu's orig target) is mafia. However this would cause pichu to be the only death because mafia would either have to chose to no kill or kill/get doctered.

Overall this is pretty good, Mewtwo is the only one that can really screw with our Pichu copping if we do it intelligently. So if we can track mewtwo we can be confident in our copping. Obviously we are going to want to be setting up a decent amount of night actions and we wont necessarily know if we are doing any of them until a couple days later as people die/reveal if they are a pr. For example I don't think we need pichu/mewtwo/marth to claim if they are a pr or not until something happens like pichu dieing and even then we should view the circumstances before jumping to claims.

[mcmcsalot]

Just realized faust gave a summary of exactly what I said about pichu, I think the detail helps but I did miss that yoshi if mafia can block pichu making it seem like someone is town if pichu targets mafia. Much worse that there are two people able to affect the pichu on any given night.

[ashersky]

So I think not organizing the claim list was good, it made people react geniunly and allowed us to have someone like ash appear, chose not to claim, wait for everyone to claim, then claim a role discourages anyone from hammering him. Quite scummy actually.

Ash what was your list? Don’t see harm in it and it can potentially prove your not a scummy liar.

I’ve asked Arch for it.  I don’t keep outbox messages.  I know bowser was #1 and I had three names on the list.

[ashersky]

As for activity, super busy this week, more time over the holiday break.

I’m glad we claimed.  I think it served less of a purpose than any of you think, though.

Any competent scum doesn’t screw up, and incompetent scum will be caught anyway.

[ashersky]

Also, I’m just super bitter about mafia in general since I lost a lot of time and effort on Falling Skies setup via the QT fiasco.

[faust]

Any competent scum doesn’t screw up, and incompetent scum will be caught anyway.

Well it was never about scum screwing up anyway.

[Galzria]

Ash,

Archetype included my list in my QT on my opening post with my receiving Fox. Did he not do the same for you/everyone?

[mcmcsalot]

Ash,

Archetype included my list in my QT on my opening post with my receiving Fox. Did he not do the same for you/everyone?

Same for me.

[Robz888]

Ash,

Archetype included my list in my QT on my opening post with my receiving Fox. Did he not do the same for you/everyone?

Same for me.

Same.

[ashersky]

So he did.

Samus and Kirby were 2 and 3.

[Galzria]

Actually, for everyone:

For those who received a pick lower than your #1 choice, you know that all characters ranked above your choice are present and in the game. If anybody knows that there is a character present that has NOT been claimed, please speak up.

[Swowl]

Well, I thionk it's relatively straightforward right ? If Samus was higher in Swan's list than what he got, it straight up means someone is lying, right ? Or am I missing something ?

I actually don’t think that’s what Swan meant by his wording. I think he just mean A) Samus is a strong power and he’s surprised no one took it, B) in the event no one took it scum knows that because they don’t have day chat and therefor would be able to fake claim it safely. Final conclusion very surprised Saumus hasn’t been claimed (real or fake)

I agree with faust however that due to possibility of a rolecop as well as just the fact that we chose roles before alignment it’s unlikely scum has fake claimed at all.

this

[Swowl]

I also received my list along with my role. However, they were in separate messages if that helps you find it Ash.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Hmmm....

I wasn't in mean girls but I'm going to guess that it's not a joke but it's not a serious counterclaim either. Not surprised, really.

[Swowl]

Well, I thionk it's relatively straightforward right ? If Samus was higher in Swan's list than what he got, it straight up means someone is lying, right ? Or am I missing something ?

I actually don’t think that’s what Swan meant by his wording. I think he just mean A) Samus is a strong power and he’s surprised no one took it, B) in the event no one took it scum knows that because they don’t have day chat and therefor would be able to fake claim it safely. Final conclusion very surprised Saumus hasn’t been claimed (real or fake)

I agree with faust however that due to possibility of a rolecop as well as just the fact that we chose roles before alignment it’s unlikely scum has fake claimed at all.

How would scum know that noone took it? It would be entriely possible that someone got Samus, but they are vanilla...

SO yes there is that to factor in. But if they took it and are VT there is no reason to consider any of this.
I think we have beaten this one to death. If you have something else go ahead, but i do see your point regarding its risk.

[Joseph2302]

I also received my list along with my role. However, they were in separate messages if that helps you find it Ash.

Same for me

[Joseph2302]

Actually, for everyone:

For those who received a pick lower than your #1 choice, you know that all characters ranked above your choice are present and in the game. If anybody knows that there is a character present that has NOT been claimed, please speak up.

I do not

[faust]

Can we not talk about things that will not surprise anyone? Like, if you have something that brings new info, please share it, but otherwise find another way to contribute.

[mcmcsalot]

Hmm seems like we’re getting into the “responsed to all technical questions but not make comments about alignment” stage.

Andrew do you see that ash has since claimed his actual role and yes it was a joke, however what does this make you feel about ash’s alignment?

Ppe: faust feeling the same way as me

[mcmcsalot]

Seanbean, pick one person at random, reread all their posts, let me know what you think about their alignment (hasn’t posted anything alignment indicative is fine).

[mcmcsalot]

Robz has enoug good influences in his life, stop writing your book and accost Galzria or something.

[mcmcsalot]

Never mind I’ll do it.

Vote: Ash for obvious reasons.

Bad votes are bad for obvious reasons.

Galz why is robz vote for ash bad?

[mcmcsalot]

O you initially were against the massclaim and then were somewhat forced into by mass compliance who of the people starting and participating in do you find the scummiest (for whatever reason you want, manipulative, opportunistic, ect.)

[O]

O you initially were against the massclaim and then were somewhat forced into by mass compliance who of the people starting and participating in do you find the scummiest (for whatever reason you want, manipulative, opportunistic, ect.)

I got nothing. There wasn't even any manipulation, people just all did it without much comment.

[gkrieg13]

This is townie ash.  He is actually trying to figure out peoples' alignments.  Actively looking for scumslips is not something he does as town.

[mcmcsalot]

This is townie ash.  He is actually trying to figure out peoples' alignments.  Actively looking for scumslips is not something he does as town.

This is a contradiction, you say you think he is town, then you say actively looking for scumslips (which ash has already done this game) is not something he does as town.

[O]

This is townie ash.  He is actually trying to figure out peoples' alignments.  Actively looking for scumslips is not something he does as town.

This is a contradiction, you say you think he is town, then you say actively looking for scumslips (which ash has already done this game) is not something he does as town.

i think he typo'd all over the place

[mcmcsalot]

This is townie ash.  He is actually trying to figure out peoples' alignments.  Actively looking for scumslips is not something he does as town.

This is a contradiction, you say you think he is town, then you say actively looking for scumslips (which ash has already done this game) is not something he does as town.

i think he typo'd all over the place

I am almost positive he is  trying to say “looking for scumslips is not something ash does as scum” but said town instead. That’s actually a little more than I typo though add in the fact that the original post is a bit of a paper defense, “ash is actually trying to figure out allignments”. Ash’s only post about anyone’s allignment is “idp scumslipped” followed by “misread never mind”. Never said what that was that he misread and hasn’t made any other posts about alignment.

I think it’s very possible scum!gkrieg is trying to put together a defense of town!ash for towncred, doesn’t put much thought into it, gives a bad defense and slips up his woring because he knows ash is town.

[gkrieg13]

This is townie ash.  He is actually trying to figure out peoples' alignments.  Actively looking for scumslips is not something he does as town.

This is a contradiction, you say you think he is town, then you say actively looking for scumslips (which ash has already done this game) is not something he does as town.

Yes sorry.  It is something he does as town.

[gkrieg13]

This is townie ash.  He is actually trying to figure out peoples' alignments.  Actively looking for scumslips is not something he does as town.

This is a contradiction, you say you think he is town, then you say actively looking for scumslips (which ash has already done this game) is not something he does as town.

i think he typo'd all over the place

I am almost positive he is  trying to say “looking for scumslips is not something ash does as scum” but said town instead. That’s actually a little more than I typo though add in the fact that the original post is a bit of a paper defense, “ash is actually trying to figure out allignments”. Ash’s only post about anyone’s allignment is “idp scumslipped” followed by “misread never mind”. Never said what that was that he misread and hasn’t made any other posts about alignment.

I think it’s very possible scum!gkrieg is trying to put together a defense of town!ash for towncred, doesn’t put much thought into it, gives a bad defense and slips up his woring because he knows ash is town.

I'm really good at reading ash, and read the point that people were getting on his case, and was putting in my opinion of the situation.  I'm trying to get into the game here.

[O]

This is townie ash.  He is actually trying to figure out peoples' alignments.  Actively looking for scumslips is not something he does as town.

This is a contradiction, you say you think he is town, then you say actively looking for scumslips (which ash has already done this game) is not something he does as town.

i think he typo'd all over the place

I am almost positive he is  trying to say “looking for scumslips is not something ash does as scum” but said town instead. That’s actually a little more than I typo though add in the fact that the original post is a bit of a paper defense, “ash is actually trying to figure out allignments”. Ash’s only post about anyone’s allignment is “idp scumslipped” followed by “misread never mind”. Never said what that was that he misread and hasn’t made any other posts about alignment.

I think it’s very possible scum!gkrieg is trying to put together a defense of town!ash for towncred, doesn’t put much thought into it, gives a bad defense and slips up his woring because he knows ash is town.

it definitely doesn't look like gkrieg is putting lots effort into making great arguments

[O]

i think we might all be scum if thats our metric tho

[Joseph2302]

Can we not talk about things that will not surprise anyone? Like, if you have something that brings new info, please share it, but otherwise find another way to contribute.

Me not helping at all D1 is my town meta

[Joseph2302]

i think we might all be scum if thats our metric tho

You solved the game. It's actually a BM game where we're all scum!

[O]

i think we might all be scum if thats our metric tho

You solved the game. It's actually a BM game where we're all scum!

I'm actually the jester thanks

[Archetype]

Vote Count 1.2

ashersky(4): chairs, Robz888, Teproc, mcmcsalot
chairs(1): faust
gkrieg13(1):Joseph2302
Joseph2302(1): gkrieg13

Not Voting ( 8 ): ashersky, Galzria, DatSwan, seanbean, AndrewisFTTW, IDontPlayThisGame, O

With 14 alive it takes 8 to lynch. Day 1 will end December 27th at 7:00 PM.

[schadd]

tag

[chairs]

I actually think ash is town here.

vote: mcmc

[ashersky]

Never mind I’ll do it.

Vote: Ash for obvious reasons.

Bad votes are bad for obvious reasons.

Galz why is robz vote for ash bad?

I know why, but will let Galz answer for himself.

[ashersky]

since the name of your pokemon is not absolutely correlated to you having that PR, I think there may be some merit in a flavor claim.
Thing is since you get to bid prior to knowing your alignment... does the claim actually help us all that much?

Did anyone else notice this when he posted it?

[Galzria]

Never mind I’ll do it.

Vote: Ash for obvious reasons.

Bad votes are bad for obvious reasons.

Galz why is robz vote for ash bad?

I know why, but will let Galz answer for himself.

Because there is one person that can, without any shadow of a doubt, confirm mcmc's claim - and that person is, I believe, you.

That doesn't make you town. Hell, you two could be scum together with day chat now. But for the purposes of Robz vote and what we know at this time, I think you were breadcrumbing that Mcmc Neighborized you N0.

[faust]

I'm still voting chairs, that should not be. Vote: Joseph

I feel like I already did this.

[chairs]

Oh, that's.... particularly neat.

unvote

[Galzria]

Never mind I’ll do it.

Vote: Ash for obvious reasons.

Bad votes are bad for obvious reasons.

Galz why is robz vote for ash bad?

I know why, but will let Galz answer for himself.

Because there is one person that *possibly* can, without any shadow of a doubt, confirm mcmc's claim - and that person is, I believe, you.

That doesn't make you town. Hell, you two could be scum together with day chat now. But for the purposes of Robz vote and what we know at this time, I think you were breadcrumbing that Mcmc Neighborized you N0.

Modified phrasing in bold. Mcmc could be Vanilla.

[Swowl]

since the name of your pokemon is not absolutely correlated to you having that PR, I think there may be some merit in a flavor claim.
Thing is since you get to bid prior to knowing your alignment... does the claim actually help us all that much?

Did anyone else notice this when he posted it?

I stand by it.
I think that because flavor flips anyways this was not a wise choice to do so early. Alignment is given after picks, so we can't use that. Flavor flips on death, so we don't lose out on anything by waiting (skum lying will still be caught on those flips). Faust did make a good point that the set up gives very little room for Skum to maneuver, so the likelihood of catching a fake claim is low (to happen at all, that is to say). And adddiiitiooonnnllyyyyy, if the oracle shots can actually be used to verify a VT vs PR character we painted targets.
The upside of doing it today is the same upside as doing when "we need to" imo.

It is too late now, and I cooperated with the claim because everyone did it and I am not going to sit there and refuse to contribute.

What is it that you find interesting about this point?

[Joseph2302]

I'm still voting chairs, that should not be. Vote: Joseph

I feel like I already did this.

I wouldn't recommend this. If another person votes for me, I'll claim

[Galzria]

I'm still voting chairs, that should not be. Vote: Joseph

I feel like I already did this.

I wouldn't recommend this. If another person votes for me, I'll claim

At most you could claim Vanilla or Roleblocker - and neither says anything about your alignment.

Why so jumpy? Also, AtE is a scum trait.

[faust]

I'm still voting chairs, that should not be. Vote: Joseph

I feel like I already did this.

I wouldn't recommend this. If another person votes for me, I'll claim

I am unafraid! You already claimed:

I'm the SK

[mcmcsalot]

I actually think ash is town here.

vote: mcmc

So clearly you have come to a different conclusion then me but you’re only going to get half credit unless you show your work. Curious why you think ash is town and why that makes me scum.

[mcmcsalot]

since the name of your pokemon is not absolutely correlated to you having that PR, I think there may be some merit in a flavor claim.
Thing is since you get to bid prior to knowing your alignment... does the claim actually help us all that much?

Did anyone else notice this when he posted it?

Yep noticed that he mistook all characters for being Pokémon, makes sense that he is pickachu. Also I get his point that knowing what roles people could be isn’t alignment indicative but it locks scum into following suit with what they have claimed. Also we traded some increased danger to our potential pr’s for some increased ability to coordinate.

[mcmcsalot]

Never mind I’ll do it.

Vote: Ash for obvious reasons.

Bad votes are bad for obvious reasons.

Galz why is robz vote for ash bad?

I know why, but will let Galz answer for himself.

Because there is one person that can, without any shadow of a doubt, confirm mcmc's claim - and that person is, I believe, you.

That doesn't make you town. Hell, you two could be scum together with day chat now. But for the purposes of Robz vote and what we know at this time, I think you were breadcrumbing that Mcmc Neighborized you N0.

You keep saying “you” in response to me and ash when I believe the you means robz but I understand what your saying.

Still doesn’t answer why that makes robz vote for ash bad. If I am a neighborizer I don’t think it’s crazy to assume I would neighborize robz night 0 regardless so that all makes sense. But if that is the case at the time robz would be voting for ash for knowingly lying about his claim, wouldn’t that in fact be the best vote?

[mcmcsalot]

I'm still voting chairs, that should not be. Vote: Joseph

I feel like I already did this.

I wouldn't recommend this. If another person votes for me, I'll claim

At most you could claim Vanilla or Roleblocker - and neither says anything about your alignment.

Why so jumpy? Also, AtE is a scum trait.

Yea super super scummy on Joseph’s part. That felt more like a threat than a “it will clear me” sorta claim.

[Joseph2302]

I'm still voting chairs, that should not be. Vote: Joseph

I feel like I already did this.

I wouldn't recommend this. If another person votes for me, I'll claim

At most you could claim Vanilla or Roleblocker - and neither says anything about your alignment.

Why so jumpy? Also, AtE is a scum trait.

Yea super super scummy on Joseph’s part. That felt more like a threat than a “it will clear me” sorta claim.

Clearly you haven't played with me enough.
If I'm scum, I'm usually quiet and hiding most the game.
If I'm town, I spend D1 messing around like I am now

[Joseph2302]

Claim is imminent.....

[faust]

I'm still voting chairs, that should not be. Vote: Joseph

I feel like I already did this.

I wouldn't recommend this. If another person votes for me, I'll claim

At most you could claim Vanilla or Roleblocker - and neither says anything about your alignment.

Why so jumpy? Also, AtE is a scum trait.

Yea super super scummy on Joseph’s part. That felt more like a threat than a “it will clear me” sorta claim.

Clearly you haven't played with me enough.
If I'm scum, I'm usually quiet and hiding most the game.
If I'm town, I spend D1 messing around like I am now

FTFY

[faust]

We have good activity here, but we need everyone contributing... espcially as long as Christmas isn't there yet.

Request prods on Idplay and seanbean

[Teproc]

I think that's townie from Joseph ? Not sure.

I do think mcmc is super townie and faust moderately so. Everyone else needs to post more.

[faust]

II do think mcmc is super townie and faust moderately so. Everyone else needs to post more.

Is there something about mcmc other than activity level that makes you think he's townie?

[IDontPlayThisGame]

We have good activity here, but we need everyone contributing... espcially as long as Christmas isn't there yet.

Request prods on Idplay and seanbean

I'm here. Just been a bit busy. I'll have something more to post soon. Anything you're particularly interested in hearing?

[mcmcsalot]

All to early post count to mean much but I had the time and it includes a subtraction of everyone’s pre-game posts so late this can be referenced easily to get accurate numbers:

mcmcsalot 34-1=33
faust 46-13=33
Teproc 15-3=12
Galzria 14-3=11
Joseph2302 12-1=11
ashersky 11-1=10
DatSwan 13-3=10
chairs 9-1=8
O 9-1=8
Robz888 10-3=7
gkrieg13 7-2=5
IDontPlayThisGame 9-5=4
AndrewisFTTW 6-3=3
seanbean 2-1=1

[IDontPlayThisGame]

I don't think ashersky's claim is indicative of much. I think Joseph is being ridiculous threatening to claim at L-5 as I don't see how it helps town. I don't have much to say about faust/Galz/gkrieg/mcmc as I think I read them even more poorly than I do everyone else.

I don't like all the redirection going on. If scum has either Mewtwo or Fox and is confident Mewtwo/Fox won't be Roleblocked, they could do some fancy stuff with PRs/the NK. Speaking of which, do we want to claim what everyone will do tonight if they are a PR à la Weak Neighborizer in M110? It didn't go very well there since everyone picked faust but I don't know how it would turn out here.

[mcmcsalot]

This is townie ash.  He is actually trying to figure out peoples' alignments.  Actively looking for scumslips is not something he does as town.

This is a contradiction, you say you think he is town, then you say actively looking for scumslips (which ash has already done this game) is not something he does as town.

i think he typo'd all over the place

I am almost positive he is  trying to say “looking for scumslips is not something ash does as scum” but said town instead. That’s actually a little more than I typo though add in the fact that the original post is a bit of a paper defense, “ash is actually trying to figure out allignments”. Ash’s only post about anyone’s allignment is “idp scumslipped” followed by “misread never mind”. Never said what that was that he misread and hasn’t made any other posts about alignment.

I think it’s very possible scum!gkrieg is trying to put together a defense of town!ash for towncred, doesn’t put much thought into it, gives a bad defense and slips up his woring because he knows ash is town.

I'm really good at reading ash, and read the point that people were getting on his case, and was putting in my opinion of the situation.  I'm trying to get into the game here.

So actually looking at gkriegs defense of himself here I think he looks pretty scummy. He offers a paper defense of ash which I’ve shown is wrong, ash wasn’t “actively trying to figure out alignments” at the time, and then gkrieg says “I’m really good at reading ash” that’s not any more convincing of a defense and the added “I’m trying to get into the game here” is a bit attitudy for gkrieg, added scum points for that. Add in his low post count and threatening power.

vote: gkrieg

[iguanaiguana]

Crazy Hand Vote Count 1.3

ashersky(2): Robz888, Teproc
gkrieg13(2):Joseph2302, mcmcsalot
Joseph2302(2): gkrieg13, Faust
Not Voting ( 8 ): ashersky, Galzria, DatSwan, seanbean, AndrewisFTTW, IDontPlayThisGame, O, chairs

With 14 alive it takes 8 to lynch. Day 1 will end December 27th at 7:00 PM.

Request prods on Idplay and seanbean

These players are not eligible for a prod at this time.

[Teproc]

II do think mcmc is super townie and faust moderately so. Everyone else needs to post more.

Is there something about mcmc other than activity level that makes you think he's townie?

Yes. For mcmc, being this active early and this productive and trying to get the game moving is a town tell, I think. He doesn't always do it as town, but I don't think he ever does it this convincingly as scum.

[mcmcsalot]

Working on some pr stuff. where does the joat’s 1-Shot ascetic go in the resolution chain and is it targetable on someone or only self targeted?

This matters for the only pro use of lightning rod I can see.

[mcmcsalot]

So in reference to idp’s question about directing powers I have thought about the best uses of and suggestions for powers but I want more people to weigh in on my gkrieg case or make a case of their own before throwing us into non-alignment indicative pr talk.

[gkrieg13]

This is townie ash.  He is actually trying to figure out peoples' alignments.  Actively looking for scumslips is not something he does as town.

This is a contradiction, you say you think he is town, then you say actively looking for scumslips (which ash has already done this game) is not something he does as town.

i think he typo'd all over the place

I am almost positive he is  trying to say “looking for scumslips is not something ash does as scum” but said town instead. That’s actually a little more than I typo though add in the fact that the original post is a bit of a paper defense, “ash is actually trying to figure out allignments”. Ash’s only post about anyone’s allignment is “idp scumslipped” followed by “misread never mind”. Never said what that was that he misread and hasn’t made any other posts about alignment.

I think it’s very possible scum!gkrieg is trying to put together a defense of town!ash for towncred, doesn’t put much thought into it, gives a bad defense and slips up his woring because he knows ash is town.

I'm really good at reading ash, and read the point that people were getting on his case, and was putting in my opinion of the situation.  I'm trying to get into the game here.

So actually looking at gkriegs defense of himself here I think he looks pretty scummy. He offers a paper defense of ash which I’ve shown is wrong, ash wasn’t “actively trying to figure out alignments” at the time, and then gkrieg says “I’m really good at reading ash” that’s not any more convincing of a defense and the added “I’m trying to get into the game here” is a bit attitudy for gkrieg, added scum points for that. Add in his low post count and threatening power.

vote: gkrieg

I would say that noticing scumslips counts as "actively trying to figure out alignments".  I am really good at reading ash.  I consistently push for his lynch when he is scum and defend him when he is town.  He is the player I feel like I can read best. 

I don't get why me having attitude is scummy from me. I had just done a bunch of weeding and wasn't in the best mood, but it certainly isn't scummy.  I would argue that I have more "attitude" as town.  Post count also isn't indicative of alignment for me, and the power I have is also not indicative of alignment either.

[gkrieg13]

since the name of your pokemon is not absolutely correlated to you having that PR, I think there may be some merit in a flavor claim.
Thing is since you get to bid prior to knowing your alignment... does the claim actually help us all that much?

Did anyone else notice this when he posted it?

I'm guessing you are pointing out that he said pokemon instead of character?

[gkrieg13]

since the name of your pokemon is not absolutely correlated to you having that PR, I think there may be some merit in a flavor claim.
Thing is since you get to bid prior to knowing your alignment... does the claim actually help us all that much?

Did anyone else notice this when he posted it?

Yep noticed that he mistook all characters for being Pokémon, makes sense that he is pickachu. Also I get his point that knowing what roles people could be isn’t alignment indicative but it locks scum into following suit with what they have claimed. Also we traded some increased danger to our potential pr’s for some increased ability to coordinate.

I think coordinating is a bad idea for most of the PRs.  The claim did help me potentially.

[gkrieg13]

I'm still voting chairs, that should not be. Vote: Joseph

I feel like I already did this.

I wouldn't recommend this. If another person votes for me, I'll claim

At most you could claim Vanilla or Roleblocker - and neither says anything about your alignment.

Why so jumpy? Also, AtE is a scum trait.

Yea super super scummy on Joseph’s part. That felt more like a threat than a “it will clear me” sorta claim.

Clearly you haven't played with me enough.
If I'm scum, I'm usually quiet and hiding most the game.
If I'm town, I spend D1 messing around like I am now

I would say your scum play matches your town play pretty well, and neither of them are particularly helpful.

[gkrieg13]

We have good activity here, but we need everyone contributing... espcially as long as Christmas isn't there yet.

Request prods on Idplay and seanbean

This kind of post is a little scummy from faust.  Seems a little fake, considering he hasn't had much of a presence as I remember.

[mcmcsalot]

We have good activity here, but we need everyone contributing... espcially as long as Christmas isn't there yet.

Request prods on Idplay and seanbean

This kind of post is a little scummy from faust.  Seems a little fake, considering he hasn't had much of a presence as I remember.

He is tied with me for more that 3 times as much content than anyone else...

Also prodding people is absolutely a town!faust move.

[faust]

Request prods on Idplay and seanbean

These players are not eligible for a prod at this time.

Yuck 48 hours prod rules

[faust]

This is townie ash.  He is actually trying to figure out peoples' alignments.  Actively looking for scumslips is not something he does as town.

This is a contradiction, you say you think he is town, then you say actively looking for scumslips (which ash has already done this game) is not something he does as town.

i think he typo'd all over the place

I am almost positive he is  trying to say “looking for scumslips is not something ash does as scum” but said town instead. That’s actually a little more than I typo though add in the fact that the original post is a bit of a paper defense, “ash is actually trying to figure out allignments”. Ash’s only post about anyone’s allignment is “idp scumslipped” followed by “misread never mind”. Never said what that was that he misread and hasn’t made any other posts about alignment.

I think it’s very possible scum!gkrieg is trying to put together a defense of town!ash for towncred, doesn’t put much thought into it, gives a bad defense and slips up his woring because he knows ash is town.

I'm really good at reading ash, and read the point that people were getting on his case, and was putting in my opinion of the situation.  I'm trying to get into the game here.

So actually looking at gkriegs defense of himself here I think he looks pretty scummy. He offers a paper defense of ash which I’ve shown is wrong, ash wasn’t “actively trying to figure out alignments” at the time, and then gkrieg says “I’m really good at reading ash” that’s not any more convincing of a defense and the added “I’m trying to get into the game here” is a bit attitudy for gkrieg, added scum points for that. Add in his low post count and threatening power.

vote: gkrieg

The "I'm really good at reading ash" is a bit more swagger than I would expect from scum!gkrieg here.

[Robz888]

II do think mcmc is super townie and faust moderately so. Everyone else needs to post more.

Is there something about mcmc other than activity level that makes you think he's townie?

Yes. For mcmc, being this active early and this productive and trying to get the game moving is a town tell, I think. He doesn't always do it as town, but I don't think he ever does it this convincingly as scum.

This strikes me as true. I don't know if he's *incapable* of doing it as scum, though.

[Teproc]

I also think I'm good at reading ash, and I think he's scum !

I am, however, not good at reading gkrieg.

@Robz. Sure. Might you by any chance have anything more to say before you get back to writing your book ?

[Teproc]

Oh, and faust definitely prods people as scum too.

[chairs]

So I was trying to give the newbie a pass, but one post? Even I do better than that on D1.

vote: seanbean.

[Galzria]

So I was trying to give the newbie a pass, but one post? Even I do better than that on D1.

vote: seanbean.

Why does a lack of posting make him scum?

[Robz888]

I also think I'm good at reading ash, and I think he's scum !

I am, however, not good at reading gkrieg.

@Robz. Sure. Might you by any chance have anything more to say before you get back to writing your book ?

I have a few other reads I will share eventually, but they are currently weak and based on things certain players are doing, and I think I'd rather wait and see if these players continue engaging in these behaviors (I poison the well if I say what I think now).

[mcmcsalot]

So I was trying to give the newbie a pass, but one post? Even I do better than that on D1.

vote: seanbean.

Why does a lack of posting make him scum?

Oh hai galz, while your asking questions want to answer mine about why robz vote on ash was bad given what you thought about why robz was making the vote?

[chairs]

So I was trying to give the newbie a pass, but one post? Even I do better than that on D1.

vote: seanbean.

Why does a lack of posting make him scum?

Broski, this is Day ONE.

Everything makes everybody scum for any reason or no reason at all.

But low-posting is a good reason to vote somebody on D1, because moar posts mean moar chances to slip up for scum.

[mcmcsalot]

Time for some Voltaire style all too early POE list

Won’t lynch: faust, Idp
Don’t want to lynch: teproc, datswan, Chairs
Are you playing: O, seanbean, andrew
Would lynch: Joseph, galz, ash
Want to lynch: robz, gkrieg

[Galzria]

So I was trying to give the newbie a pass, but one post? Even I do better than that on D1.

vote: seanbean.

Why does a lack of posting make him scum?

Oh hai galz, while your asking questions want to answer mine about why robz vote on ash was bad given what you thought about why robz was making the vote?

No

[Galzria]

Never mind I’ll do it.

Vote: Ash for obvious reasons.

Bad votes are bad for obvious reasons.

Galz why is robz vote for ash bad?

I know why, but will let Galz answer for himself.

Because there is one person that can, without any shadow of a doubt, confirm mcmc's claim - and that person is, I believe, you.

That doesn't make you town. Hell, you two could be scum together with day chat now. But for the purposes of Robz vote and what we know at this time, I think you were breadcrumbing that Mcmc Neighborized you N0.

You keep saying “you” in response to me and ash when I believe the you means robz but I understand what your saying.

Still doesn’t answer why that makes robz vote for ash bad. If I am a neighborizer I don’t think it’s crazy to assume I would neighborize robz night 0 regardless so that all makes sense. But if that is the case at the time robz would be voting for ash for knowingly lying about his claim, wouldn’t that in fact be the best vote?

Or, you know, maybe the "you" was in response to the person I quoted.

[Galzria]

Vote: Joseph

[Galzria]

Actually Vote: gkrieg because mislynching him is fun

Why is Gkrieg a mislynch?

[Galzria]

FIRST!

vote: ashersky for not posting.

Why is Ashersky not posting scummy?

He's actively preventing us from getting a read on him by his inaction.

Hello! Every time I post, please, someone, reply "GO FINISH YOUR BOOK."

Are we going to massclaim right away, or have a long argument about it and then massclaim anyway?

Like... maybe the solution is we don't massclaim? Or we discuss -what- we're going to massclaim?

IDK.

FWIW: If we're going to do this, I think we all claim how many heroes we listed first. Then we claim flavor name. Then we claim our lists.

I think that maximizes the opportunity for somebody to get caught in a lie.

Here, I'll start even, so we can just get on with it.

I'm Captain Falcon.

No posts from you between these. Why the sudden and drastic change in opinion about how we should claim?

[Galzria]

Here is the list of claims so far. Listed in order of the time claimed:

Chairs - Cpt. Falcon
Faust - Sheik
Teproc - Link
MCMC - Mr Game and Watch
Robz - Ice Climbers
IDPTG - Pichu
Joseph - Yoshi
GK - Mewtwo
Andrew - Ganandorf
Galz - Fox
Swan - Pikachu
SeanB - Marth
O - Kirby
Ash - Bowser

[Galzria]

I’m the real RB, Mcmc, Yuma will back me up.

bowser

Last claim. Convenient claim. Good way to avoid being the lynch. If you're town then scum will never hammer you and town absolutely shouldn't do so. If you're scum then scum will NEVER hammer you, and town probably should - but it would need to be 100%.

Town Ash:
Scum Hammer: 0
Town Hammer: 0

Scum Ash:
Scum Hammer: 0
Town Hammer: 1

Further - If you're Mafia then you only have to worry about a potential SK or (if you're Vanilla) Andrew (If he's town himself and has the Vig power). If you're town then you have as much to worry about at night as anybody.

For the record, you could be Bowser. You could also be:
Mario
Donkey Kong
Samus
Ness
Peach
Zelda
Jigglypuff
Luigi
Roy
Dr. Mario
Young Link

Some of those are trackable and verifiable. Others less so.

[Galzria]

We should note that there are 3 potential redirectors:

Mewtwo (gkrieg)
Fox (Galzria)
Pikachu (DatSwan)

We want to have Pichu's visiting announced each day. But gkrieg and Galzria can mess with that (also Pikachu, but we could probably figure that out). On the plus side, we have Marth and Link's 1-shot Tracker that could detect such a thing, so it would be dangerous for scum. We also have Yoshi who could block them.

In regards to me, this is only accurate if Pichu were to target me directly.

[Galzria]

So he did.

Samus and Kirby were 2 and 3.

Why not Jigglypuff?

[Galzria]

Townie:
Gkrieg, Mcmc

Neutral:
Andrew, O, SeanB, Robz, IDP, Faust

Scummy:
DatSwan, Teproc, Chairs, Ash, Joseph

[O]

scummy: you all
townie: me

quality content contribution from O strikes again

[mcmcsalot]

Galz I’m curious why you find gkrieg townie, I was voting and pursuing an ash lynch for the exact reason you just mentioned plus some until gkrieg gave the weakest of paper defenses of ash and then backed it up with more unsubstantiated stuff. So it could be scum poorly defending scum partner or scum poorly defending a town member for cred

[mcmcsalot]

scummy: you all
townie: me

quality content contribution from O strikes again

O what are your thoughts on andrew and chairs?

[Galzria]

scummy: you all
townie: me

quality content contribution from O strikes again

I agree with this. I disagree that you've been doing this. Do more of this.

[Galzria]

Galz I’m curious why you find gkrieg townie, I was voting and pursuing an ash lynch for the exact reason you just mentioned plus some until gkrieg gave the weakest of paper defenses of ash and then backed it up with more unsubstantiated stuff. So it could be scum poorly defending scum partner or scum poorly defending a town member for cred

If I find Player A scummy, and Player B defends Player A, that does not mean I must find Player B scummy.

Gkrieg reads normal town Gkrieg to me. It gets him mislynched a lot. He's more under the radar as scum imo.

[O]

scummy: you all
townie: me

quality content contribution from O strikes again

O what are your thoughts on andrew and chairs?

happy to lynch either

chairs is a decent lynch because his role is useless, and most roles seem pretty positive overall for town compared than scum.

Andrew: Ganon seems like the main scum-favored utility role: if town, how many scum are going to be vanilla? 1?

in terms of alignment reads, ehhh? neither here nor there. Refer to previous post for verdict.

[ashersky]

So he did.

Samus and Kirby were 2 and 3.

Why not Jigglypuff?

I only wanted Bowser; figured I one wouldn’t cut it, settler on three.  Picked the roles I would be okay with.

[ashersky]

II do think mcmc is super townie and faust moderately so. Everyone else needs to post more.

Is there something about mcmc other than activity level that makes you think he's townie?

Yes. For mcmc, being this active early and this productive and trying to get the game moving is a town tell, I think. He doesn't always do it as town, but I don't think he ever does it this convincingly as scum.

Wrong.  He does it convincingly as scum.  If he has daychat, he incessantly posts about how nerve wracking it is.  He’ll paint a picture like a super nervous witness hiding from the mob.  He’ll dedicate at least three post-game posts on how tough it was.

But he can most definitely do it (or any of his towntells) as scum.  That’s what makes him so good at being scum.

[ashersky]

II do think mcmc is super townie and faust moderately so. Everyone else needs to post more.

Is there something about mcmc other than activity level that makes you think he's townie?

Yes. For mcmc, being this active early and this productive and trying to get the game moving is a town tell, I think. He doesn't always do it as town, but I don't think he ever does it this convincingly as scum.

This strikes me as true. I don't know if he's *incapable* of doing it as scum, though.

Just ask his ever present PR guy and apologist.

[ashersky]

Happy to be the D1 mislynch.  I’d like Mcmc to hammer me, please.

Robz is def a partner.  I’d list Tep as probable.

I’m torn on Galz.  I’m feeling like 98% town there, which probably means definitely scum.  Plus, that handy list of possible fake claims seems like he just grabbed that from the scum qt.

Chairs is town. 

[ashersky]

Hilariously, this is the only game ever where you know I won’t self-hammer as any alignment.  As scum, why would I block the free kill?  As town, why would I block my free vengeance?

[ashersky]

And yes, I put my sweet, sweet vengeance above winning.

[Galzria]

Happy to be the D1 mislynch.  I’d like Mcmc to hammer me, please.

Robz is def a partner.  I’d list Tep as probable.

I’m torn on Galz.  I’m feeling like 98% town there, which probably means definitely scum.  Plus, that handy list of possible fake claims seems like he just grabbed that from the scum qt.

Chairs is town.

You mean the one where I listed all non claimed characters? Yeah, we totally had that pretyped and ready to go in our scum QT lol.

[ashersky]

So, let’s stop wasting time talking about me at all, because there’s zero benefit to lynching me.

Vig me if you think I’m scum, or scum will NK me for you.

[ashersky]

Happy to be the D1 mislynch.  I’d like Mcmc to hammer me, please.

Robz is def a partner.  I’d list Tep as probable.

I’m torn on Galz.  I’m feeling like 98% town there, which probably means definitely scum.  Plus, that handy list of possible fake claims seems like he just grabbed that from the scum qt.

Chairs is town.

You mean the one where I listed all non claimed characters? Yeah, we totally had that pretyped and ready to go in our scum QT lol.

If it’s not, seems like a fairly incompetent or lazy scum team.

[ashersky]

I think I can actively drive my mislynch here if I want.  Great feeling of freedom.

You know my favorite part of being mislynched?  Lording the mistakes over those players who thought they were so right.  Especially when I get the win anyway as long as Town recovers.

[O]

idk guys he kinda sounds like he wants to be lynched

who am i to deny that pleasure

[ashersky]

i am providing opinions, though, for the post-Mortem.

On Robz/Mcmc: I think robz jumped the gun in reacting to my fake counterclaim.  He’s not as focused as usual, saw town counter his partner, immediately voted one of the claimants.

But he forget his own rule — second claimer is always telling the truth (as scum usually wants to get out in front and set the stage).  Town!robz just as easily misreacts to a fake counterclaim — only scum!robz automatically “knows” which one is lying.

So that’s where they leaked info, in my opinion.  Just a simple slip from Robz that he had more info than he should about Mcmc.

[ashersky]

idk guys he kinda sounds like he wants to be lynched

who am i to deny that pleasure

O, I’ve been expecting your vote since sign ups.  You have a personal issue with me and I have no idea why.

[mcmcsalot]

Both o and ash wanna join me voting gkrieg?

[Galzria]

Happy to be the D1 mislynch.  I’d like Mcmc to hammer me, please.

Robz is def a partner.  I’d list Tep as probable.

I’m torn on Galz.  I’m feeling like 98% town there, which probably means definitely scum.  Plus, that handy list of possible fake claims seems like he just grabbed that from the scum qt.

Chairs is town.

You mean the one where I listed all non claimed characters? Yeah, we totally had that pretyped and ready to go in our scum QT lol.

If it’s not, seems like a fairly incompetent or lazy scum team.

I love being on scum teams that know everybody's claims ahead of time so we post safe fake claim lists in our QT N0.

[O]

idk guys he kinda sounds like he wants to be lynched

who am i to deny that pleasure

O, I’ve been expecting your vote since sign ups.  You have a personal issue with me and I have no idea why.

when have I even tried to kill you except in m100 when you were scum

[O]

Happy to be the D1 mislynch.  I’d like Mcmc to hammer me, please.

Robz is def a partner.  I’d list Tep as probable.

I’m torn on Galz.  I’m feeling like 98% town there, which probably means definitely scum.  Plus, that handy list of possible fake claims seems like he just grabbed that from the scum qt.

Chairs is town.

You mean the one where I listed all non claimed characters? Yeah, we totally had that pretyped and ready to go in our scum QT lol.

If it’s not, seems like a fairly incompetent or lazy scum team.

I love being on scum teams that know everybody's claims ahead of time so we post safe fake claim lists in our QT N0.

i can confirm galzria does this all the time

[Robz888]

I am feeling perfectly happy with my vote on ash.

[Teproc]

Well that's more like town!ash.

I will point out that I have that list of PRs (and a list of the flavor of the people in the game obviously) in a Word document, and I'd expect someone like Galz to have that too.

vote:seanbean

[O]

idk guys he kinda sounds like he wants to be lynched

who am i to deny that pleasure

O, I’ve been expecting your vote since sign ups.  You have a personal issue with me and I have no idea why.

when have I even tried to kill you except in m100 when you were scum

I went back and looked... M100 was our only other game together? I correctly voted for you as scum, after you said "scum should just FF" in dejection in a really scummy way?

i don't mean to fan the flames but you've never even registered on my radar enough for me to have a personal issue with you

[faust]

Well that's more like town!ash.

I will point out that I have that list of PRs (and a list of the flavor of the people in the game obviously) in a Word document, and I'd expect someone like Galz to have that too.

vote:seanbean

Vote: Teproc

It is time.

[ashersky]

Happy to be the D1 mislynch.  I’d like Mcmc to hammer me, please.

Robz is def a partner.  I’d list Tep as probable.

I’m torn on Galz.  I’m feeling like 98% town there, which probably means definitely scum.  Plus, that handy list of possible fake claims seems like he just grabbed that from the scum qt.

Chairs is town.

You mean the one where I listed all non claimed characters? Yeah, we totally had that pretyped and ready to go in our scum QT lol.

If it’s not, seems like a fairly incompetent or lazy scum team.

I love being on scum teams that know everybody's claims ahead of time so we post safe fake claim lists in our QT N0.

Well, obviously you didn’t make the list on N0.

[ashersky]

I am feeling perfectly happy with my vote on ash.

Because you are super caught and need me out of the game ASAP?  Yeah, that tracks.

[ashersky]

idk guys he kinda sounds like he wants to be lynched

who am i to deny that pleasure

O, I’ve been expecting your vote since sign ups.  You have a personal issue with me and I have no idea why.

when have I even tried to kill you except in m100 when you were scum

I went back and looked... M100 was our only other game together? I correctly voted for you as scum, after you said "scum should just FF" in dejection in a really scummy way?

i don't mean to fan the flames but you've never even registered on my radar enough for me to have a personal issue with you

See, huge personal issue.  I don’t even know why.  Whatever I may have done to offend, I’m truly sorry, man.  I don’t even know you.

[faust]

I feel like it has been a long time since I have seen such an asherskian D1. I guess part of that comes from being Bowser.

[ashersky]

Both o and ash wanna join me voting gkrieg?

Why us two, specifically?

Side note: I think Robz can be scum in a town!mcmc world, but doubt it works the other way around.

I revise my hammer request as such.  Definitely Robz should unvote and promise to hammer.  If he insists on staying on my wagon in a non-hammer Slot, it just add further incontrovertible “proof” that my theory is correct.

[O]

i've have you all know that my deep preparation consisted of not reading the roles until we had all already claimed. This includes a mostly random character selection.

[ashersky]

I feel like it has been a long time since I have seen such an asherskian D1. I guess part of that comes from being Bowser.

If only yuma would come back.

[Robz888]

Both o and ash wanna join me voting gkrieg?

Why us two, specifically?

Side note: I think Robz can be scum in a town!mcmc world, but doubt it works the other way around.

I revise my hammer request as such.  Definitely Robz should unvote and promise to hammer.  If he insists on staying on my wagon in a non-hammer Slot, it just add further incontrovertible “proof” that my theory is correct.

If you get to L-1, I am happy to unvote, let you vote for yourself, and then hammer you.

[ashersky]

i've have you all know that my deep preparation consisted of not reading the roles until we had all already claimed. This includes a mostly random character selection.

Did you make your list based solely on flavor, or did you at least skim for that purpose?

[ashersky]

Both o and ash wanna join me voting gkrieg?

Why us two, specifically?

Side note: I think Robz can be scum in a town!mcmc world, but doubt it works the other way around.

I revise my hammer request as such.  Definitely Robz should unvote and promise to hammer.  If he insists on staying on my wagon in a non-hammer Slot, it just add further incontrovertible “proof” that my theory is correct.

If you get to L-1, I am happy to unvote, let you vote for yourself, and then hammer you.

Deal.  Although, scummy cover plan, my man. 

If this comes to pass, no one steal his hammer!

[ashersky]

Wait, no one can mess with voting, right?  Like Hated and doubles and such?

[Robz888]

Both o and ash wanna join me voting gkrieg?

Why us two, specifically?

Side note: I think Robz can be scum in a town!mcmc world, but doubt it works the other way around.

I revise my hammer request as such.  Definitely Robz should unvote and promise to hammer.  If he insists on staying on my wagon in a non-hammer Slot, it just add further incontrovertible “proof” that my theory is correct.

If you get to L-1, I am happy to unvote, let you vote for yourself, and then hammer you.

Deal.  Although, scummy cover plan, my man. 

If this comes to pass, no one steal his hammer!

Who would steal the hammer...?

[O]

i've have you all know that my deep preparation consisted of not reading the roles until we had all already claimed. This includes a mostly random character selection.

Did you make your list based solely on flavor, or did you at least skim for that purpose?

I was like "Universal back up somewhat hilarious but I bet nobody else cares about it" and had a similar opinion on somewhere between 0-2 other roles

[mcmcsalot]

Both o and ash wanna join me voting gkrieg?

Why us two, specifically?

Side note: I think Robz can be scum in a town!mcmc world, but doubt it works the other way around.

I revise my hammer request as such.  Definitely Robz should unvote and promise to hammer.  If he insists on staying on my wagon in a non-hammer Slot, it just add further incontrovertible “proof” that my theory is correct.

Mostly because your around and talking, specifically because it was gkriegs post about you that made me vote him, and o seems to be having trouble commiting to a read strong enough to vote and I was offering one.

Also on your second point if we do lynch you we should absolutely make robz hammer as he is potentially one-shot deathproof.

[O]

wait this all makes so much sense with Robz!Ashersky

ITS A DAY ONE BUS GUYS

if they're both scum they know either that Ashersky is vanilla or that Robz is deathproof. Either way they get Robz hammering scum d1 with the appearance of risking death via Bowser

[O]

vote: Ashersky because I want to believe

[Teproc]

Well that's more like town!ash.

I will point out that I have that list of PRs (and a list of the flavor of the people in the game obviously) in a Word document, and I'd expect someone like Galz to have that too.

vote:seanbean

Vote: Teproc

It is time.

Time to redo Insomnia Mafia ? It doesn't work, man, I think you're town !

If it'll help, I think it's weird that seanbean (can we just call him Boromir ? Or Ned ?) claimed without hesitating at all, for a newbie.

[Teproc]

mcmc, why is gkrieg scummy ? Because his defense of ash was bad ? It wasn't bad though.

[Teproc]

Wait, no one can mess with voting, right?  Like Hated and doubles and such?

No.

[O]

Well that's more like town!ash.

I will point out that I have that list of PRs (and a list of the flavor of the people in the game obviously) in a Word document, and I'd expect someone like Galz to have that too.

vote:seanbean

Vote: Teproc

It is time.

Time to redo Insomnia Mafia ? It doesn't work, man, I think you're town !

If it'll help, I think it's weird that seanbean (can we just call him Boromir ? Or Ned ?) claimed without hesitating at all, for a newbie.

"i think it's weird that someone new to a social game adopted the norms of the game after almost everyone else did"

?

[Teproc]

Well, yeah. Without questioning it at all, I do find it weird.

[O]

I think you've been around too many thickheaded F.DS types

[Teproc]

I think you've been around too many thickheaded F.DS types

I'm not suggesting that I'd expect a newbie to outright refuse, it's more that I'd expect them to inquire about why we're doing what we're doing.

[Galzria]

Happy to be the D1 mislynch.  I’d like Mcmc to hammer me, please.

Robz is def a partner.  I’d list Tep as probable.

I’m torn on Galz.  I’m feeling like 98% town there, which probably means definitely scum.  Plus, that handy list of possible fake claims seems like he just grabbed that from the scum qt.

Chairs is town.

You mean the one where I listed all non claimed characters? Yeah, we totally had that pretyped and ready to go in our scum QT lol.

If it’s not, seems like a fairly incompetent or lazy scum team.

I love being on scum teams that know everybody's claims ahead of time so we post safe fake claim lists in our QT N0.

Well, obviously you didn’t make the list on N0.

If we didn't make it N0, and it's D1, when did it get made?

The implication is Day chat, yes? Who lied about their character?

[Swowl]

Galz I’m curious why you find gkrieg townie, I was voting and pursuing an ash lynch for the exact reason you just mentioned plus some until gkrieg gave the weakest of paper defenses of ash and then backed it up with more unsubstantiated stuff. So it could be scum poorly defending scum partner or scum poorly defending a town member for cred

If I find Player A scummy, and Player B defends Player A, that does not mean I must find Player B scummy.

Gkrieg reads normal town Gkrieg to me. It gets him mislynched a lot. He's more under the radar as scum imo.

No but you should....
Player B as a town player cannot know that Player A is Town, therefore Player B is most likely skum....

[Teproc]

@Swan : I defend people as town all the time. As should you, and everyone else.

[Teproc]

Meaning: player B defending player A does not make any of the two more likely to be scum in a vacuum.

[Robz888]

Well that's more like town!ash.

I will point out that I have that list of PRs (and a list of the flavor of the people in the game obviously) in a Word document, and I'd expect someone like Galz to have that too.

vote:seanbean

Vote: Teproc

It is time.

Time to redo Insomnia Mafia ? It doesn't work, man, I think you're town !

If it'll help, I think it's weird that seanbean (can we just call him Boromir ? Or Ned ?) claimed without hesitating at all, for a newbie.

Disagree. I think a newbie is less likely to want to rock the boat, independent of alignment.

[gkrieg13]

I think I can actively drive my mislynch here if I want.  Great feeling of freedom.

You know my favorite part of being mislynched?  Lording the mistakes over those players who thought they were so right.  Especially when I get the win anyway as long as Town recovers.

You understand that your mislynch could potentially result in 2 town deaths though...

[gkrieg13]

i am providing opinions, though, for the post-Mortem.

On Robz/Mcmc: I think robz jumped the gun in reacting to my fake counterclaim.  He’s not as focused as usual, saw town counter his partner, immediately voted one of the claimants.

But he forget his own rule — second claimer is always telling the truth (as scum usually wants to get out in front and set the stage).  Town!robz just as easily misreacts to a fake counterclaim — only scum!robz automatically “knows” which one is lying.

So that’s where they leaked info, in my opinion.  Just a simple slip from Robz that he had more info than he should about Mcmc.

So here you are saying that Robz is scum if mcmcsalot is scum?

[gkrieg13]

Well that's more like town!ash.

I will point out that I have that list of PRs (and a list of the flavor of the people in the game obviously) in a Word document, and I'd expect someone like Galz to have that too.

vote:seanbean

I don't like this vote for many reasons.

[Teproc]

Well that's more like town!ash.

I will point out that I have that list of PRs (and a list of the flavor of the people in the game obviously) in a Word document, and I'd expect someone like Galz to have that too.

vote:seanbean

I don't like this vote for many reasons.

WHich are ?

[gkrieg13]

Both o and ash wanna join me voting gkrieg?

Why us two, specifically?

Side note: I think Robz can be scum in a town!mcmc world, but doubt it works the other way around.

I revise my hammer request as such.  Definitely Robz should unvote and promise to hammer.  If he insists on staying on my wagon in a non-hammer Slot, it just add further incontrovertible “proof” that my theory is correct.

If you get to L-1, I am happy to unvote, let you vote for yourself, and then hammer you.

Deal.  Although, scummy cover plan, my man. 

If this comes to pass, no one steal his hammer!

Why would anyone steal this hammer?

[gkrieg13]

Well that's more like town!ash.

I will point out that I have that list of PRs (and a list of the flavor of the people in the game obviously) in a Word document, and I'd expect someone like Galz to have that too.

vote:seanbean

Vote: Teproc

It is time.

Time to redo Insomnia Mafia ? It doesn't work, man, I think you're town !

If it'll help, I think it's weird that seanbean (can we just call him Boromir ? Or Ned ?) claimed without hesitating at all, for a newbie.

I see your point, but I don't think it is that weird, given the rate at which people were claiming.

[gkrieg13]

I think you've been around too many thickheaded F.DS types

I'm not suggesting that I'd expect a newbie to outright refuse, it's more that I'd expect them to inquire about why we're doing what we're doing.

It's pretty normal in social deduction games for people to start claiming D1.

[gkrieg13]

Galz I’m curious why you find gkrieg townie, I was voting and pursuing an ash lynch for the exact reason you just mentioned plus some until gkrieg gave the weakest of paper defenses of ash and then backed it up with more unsubstantiated stuff. So it could be scum poorly defending scum partner or scum poorly defending a town member for cred

If I find Player A scummy, and Player B defends Player A, that does not mean I must find Player B scummy.

Gkrieg reads normal town Gkrieg to me. It gets him mislynched a lot. He's more under the radar as scum imo.

No but you should....
Player B as a town player cannot know that Player A is Town, therefore Player B is most likely skum....

So are you saying that I shouldn't defend people?  Obviously I don't know ash is town, but he is being incredibly like his town self.

[gkrieg13]

Well that's more like town!ash.

I will point out that I have that list of PRs (and a list of the flavor of the people in the game obviously) in a Word document, and I'd expect someone like Galz to have that too.

vote:seanbean

I don't like this vote for many reasons.

WHich are ?

One is the fact that there is no space.  The second is that it had no relation to what you were talking about in the post.  Which makes it a naked vote for a newbie, which I don't like too much.

[Teproc]

vote: seanbean

The relation was that I wanted to move away from ash because he was being townie. I like naked votes on newbies because I want to see how they react, but obviously since he's not here it ended up being a moot point.

[Teproc]

I think you've been around too many thickheaded F.DS types

I'm not suggesting that I'd expect a newbie to outright refuse, it's more that I'd expect them to inquire about why we're doing what we're doing.

It's pretty normal in social deduction games for people to start claiming D1.

Not in my experience. At all.

[gkrieg13]

vote: seanbean

The relation was that I wanted to move away from ash because he was being townie. I like naked votes on newbies because I want to see how they react, but obviously since he's not here it ended up being a moot point.

I think I like giving them some kind of reasoning behind the vote and see them defend themselves better.

[gkrieg13]

I think you've been around too many thickheaded F.DS types

I'm not suggesting that I'd expect a newbie to outright refuse, it's more that I'd expect them to inquire about why we're doing what we're doing.

It's pretty normal in social deduction games for people to start claiming D1.

Not in my experience. At all.

I guess it depends on how intense your game group is.

[O]

so nobody else finds it suspicious that two people with very strong incentives to pull off a bus if both scum found themselves both encouraging one to hammer the other?

[Swowl]

Galz I’m curious why you find gkrieg townie, I was voting and pursuing an ash lynch for the exact reason you just mentioned plus some until gkrieg gave the weakest of paper defenses of ash and then backed it up with more unsubstantiated stuff. So it could be scum poorly defending scum partner or scum poorly defending a town member for cred

If I find Player A scummy, and Player B defends Player A, that does not mean I must find Player B scummy.

Gkrieg reads normal town Gkrieg to me. It gets him mislynched a lot. He's more under the radar as scum imo.

No but you should....
Player B as a town player cannot know that Player A is Town, therefore Player B is most likely skum....

So are you saying that I shouldn't defend people?  Obviously I don't know ash is town, but he is being incredibly like his town self.

I would never claim to tell anyone what to do. Defend away good sir.

[ashersky]

i am providing opinions, though, for the post-Mortem.

On Robz/Mcmc: I think robz jumped the gun in reacting to my fake counterclaim.  He’s not as focused as usual, saw town counter his partner, immediately voted one of the claimants.

But he forget his own rule — second claimer is always telling the truth (as scum usually wants to get out in front and set the stage).  Town!robz just as easily misreacts to a fake counterclaim — only scum!robz automatically “knows” which one is lying.

So that’s where they leaked info, in my opinion.  Just a simple slip from Robz that he had more info than he should about Mcmc.

So here you are saying that Robz is scum if mcmcsalot is scum?

Definitely.  100%.

I’m also saying Robz is scum if mcmcsalot is town, but only 93%.

[ashersky]

I think I can actively drive my mislynch here if I want.  Great feeling of freedom.

You know my favorite part of being mislynched?  Lording the mistakes over those players who thought they were so right.  Especially when I get the win anyway as long as Town recovers.

You understand that your mislynch could potentially result in 2 town deaths though...

Yes, I do.  And in fact is more likely, if allowed to be hammered organically.  We should definitely force a scummy player to hammer.  I vote Robz, of course, but there may be a consensus pick elsewhere.

[chairs]

vote: Robz

[chairs]

FIRST!

vote: ashersky for not posting.

Why is Ashersky not posting scummy?

He's actively preventing us from getting a read on him by his inaction.

Hello! Every time I post, please, someone, reply "GO FINISH YOUR BOOK."

Are we going to massclaim right away, or have a long argument about it and then massclaim anyway?

Like... maybe the solution is we don't massclaim? Or we discuss -what- we're going to massclaim?

IDK.

FWIW: If we're going to do this, I think we all claim how many heroes we listed first. Then we claim flavor name. Then we claim our lists.

I think that maximizes the opportunity for somebody to get caught in a lie.

Here, I'll start even, so we can just get on with it.

I'm Captain Falcon.

No posts from you between these. Why the sudden and drastic change in opinion about how we should claim?

Because between these two posts I realized i was just going to make myself angry by trying to push for something I saw as more beneficial to Town, when the most beneficial thing is to just get discussion going.

[Galzria]

so nobody else finds it suspicious that two people with very strong incentives to pull off a bus if both scum found themselves both encouraging one to hammer the other?

I find it manufactured, but not alignment indicative. So what if Robz hammers and doesn't die? Doesn't make him scum. Just means either Ash isn't active or they both are. It's advantageous at this point and time to both play off the idea that they are active.

[Swowl]

I’m the real RB, Mcmc, Yuma will back me up.

bowser

Last claim. Convenient claim. Good way to avoid being the lynch. If you're town then scum will never hammer you and town absolutely shouldn't do so. If you're scum then scum will NEVER hammer you, and town probably should - but it would need to be 100%.

Town Ash:
Scum Hammer: 0
Town Hammer: 0

Scum Ash:
Scum Hammer: 0
Town Hammer: 1

Further - If you're Mafia then you only have to worry about a potential SK or (if you're Vanilla) Andrew (If he's town himself and has the Vig power). If you're town then you have as much to worry about at night as anybody.

For the record, you could be Bowser. You could also be:
Mario
Donkey Kong
Samus
Ness
Peach
Zelda
Jigglypuff
Luigi
Roy
Dr. Mario
Young Link

Some of those are trackable and verifiable. Others less so.

1) I think you are missing Falco from the FC list (not that it matters)
2) The set up dictates there are not Traitor or Survivor variants or any kind. Is SK not a variant of Survivor?
3) I think to say that skum would NEVER hammer, is an overstatement. Example - if it is Robz!Ash as Deathproof and Bowser... not saying it is likely, just saying there may be exceptions to keep in mind.

[Teproc]

I agree with Galz that the ash/Robz hammer thing is mostly them WIFOMing their PR being active, which is fine and all but not particularly interesting re: alignment.

[Swowl]

Bowser claim/claim order thoughts:

1) If you were to pick Bowser, and then receive a Town alignment, and an active PR - would you not be more quick off the draw when it came to claiming? You have the role and you know what it is going to look like when you claim last right?

2) As Skum - Wait til the back. Important note, wait til the back when you know Kirby is in the game. Situtation one, you are safe because kill back potential. Situation 2, it doesn't work, you still get lynched, take out the Town hammer, and you turn Kirby into Bowser. If Kirby = Town, and we assuming again Skum will not hammer, this is the original Bowser kill back, plus the Kirby death (if it happens), and the Town Hammer kill back (if it happens).... lots of words in a row and I have been known to be overly paranoid, but just saying.

3) As Town - Why wait until the back of order? You create confusion for your team with the fake claim theories that will assuredly come out, and you have to know it will be a town hammer if you go down so why draw more attention then needed?

[IDontPlayThisGame]

This just seems like a really ashersky thing to do. I'm not seeing the scumread, but if he wants to be today's lynch I won't stop him.

[Robz888]

Ash claimed at the end--giving him the opportunity to claim something other than what he actually had--and what he claimed is like one of the things that makes you absolutely not want to lynch him. So that's scummy in a vacuum.

That said I'm pretty sure he's actually Boswer, because it seems like something ashersky would pick. I can absolutely see ash being a little too eager to get himself lynched pronto so he can use this power...

Huh, maybe I'm talking myself out of my scum read here.

[mcmcsalot]

mcmc, why is gkrieg scummy ? Because his defense of ash was bad ? It wasn't bad though.

I thought it was point out with context of the time why it was a good defense.

[mcmcsalot]

Well that's more like town!ash.

I will point out that I have that list of PRs (and a list of the flavor of the people in the game obviously) in a Word document, and I'd expect someone like Galz to have that too.

vote:seanbean

Vote: Teproc

It is time.

Time to redo Insomnia Mafia ? It doesn't work, man, I think you're town !

If it'll help, I think it's weird that seanbean (can we just call him Boromir ? Or Ned ?) claimed without hesitating at all, for a newbie.

I see your point, but I don't think it is that weird, given the rate at which people were claiming.

I agree with this and robz point, I think it’s actually more towny how Sean claimed, he was late but that seems like his activity.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Very sorry everyone. I might have time to read tomorrow, definitely by Saturday I'll have some content for you.

[Archetype]

Vote Count 1.4

ashersky(2): Robz888, O
gkrieg13(2):Joseph2302, mcmcsalot
Joseph2302(2): gkrieg13, Galzria
seanbean(1): Teproc
Teproc(1): faust
Robz888(1): chairs

Not Voting (5): ashersky, DatSwan, seanbean, AndrewisFTTW, IDontPlayThisGame

With 14 alive it takes 8 to lynch. Day 1 will end December 27th at 7:00 PM.

where does the joat’s 1-Shot ascetic go in the resolution chain and is it targetable on someone or only self targeted?

It occurs in the Blocking phase of the action resolution (so after Sidekick but before Redirector). It is not a targeted action - the user simply 'becomes' Ascetic for that night a la Falco's ability.

[faust]

2) The set up dictates there are not Traitor or Survivor variants or any kind. Is SK not a variant of Survivor?

Yeah, it is very explicitly stated that there are only 2 alignments.

[Swowl]

Master Hand - can you confirm that Serial Killer is not an option that could possibly exist in this game?

[Swowl]

Question based on inexperience:
As skum, what roles would be considered strong enough to protect with switching claims? Assuming the strong role is active of course.

[faust]

Master Hand - can you confirm that Serial Killer is not an option that could possibly exist in this game?

Is this not good enough for you?

Once each player has a character, three are chosen to be aligned with Evil (more if more people sign up).

[...]

The remaining will be aligned with Good.

It bothers me when people cause more more for the mods unnecessarily. I realize I did the same with my untimely prod request. Sorry!

[faust]

*more work, that should read

[faust]

This just seems like a really ashersky thing to do. I'm not seeing the scumread, but if he wants to be today's lynch I won't stop him.

Do you by any chance have thoughts on anyone else?

[faust]

ashersky, could you explain why you did not claim when you posted: "I counterclaim momsalon"?

[Swowl]

Master Hand - can you confirm that Serial Killer is not an option that could possibly exist in this game?

Is this not good enough for you?

Once each player has a character, three are chosen to be aligned with Evil (more if more people sign up).

[...]

The remaining will be aligned with Good.

If it was, I would not of asked.

It bothers me when people cause more more for the mods unnecessarily. I realize I did the same with my untimely prod request. Sorry!

what is unnecessary for you, may not be the same for everyone. I have made enough mistakes in "assumptions" so far in my previous games to not feel bad about asking for simple clarifications from the one entity in the game I can actually rely on 100%. Also, FWIW, I assume by asking in the thread it saves the MOD time of potentially having to answer several of the same question in separate QTs.

[Swowl]

Ash claimed at the end--giving him the opportunity to claim something other than what he actually had--and what he claimed is like one of the things that makes you absolutely not want to lynch him. So that's scummy in a vacuum.

That said I'm pretty sure he's actually Boswer, because it seems like something ashersky would pick. I can absolutely see ash being a little too eager to get himself lynched pronto so he can use this power...

I am *assuming* you are referencing a scenario of Town!Ash here. If that is the case, why would he be eager? Assuming also that skum would not hammer a potential Town!Bowser, what is to be gained from pushing a lynch on himself "pronto"?

[faust]

Well, I thionk it's relatively straightforward right ? If Samus was higher in Swan's list than what he got, it straight up means someone is lying, right ? Or am I missing something ?

Rereading Teproc, I think this is enough to make me reconsider my vote for now... let's check out other options!

[faust]

happy to lynch either

chairs is a decent lynch because his role is useless, and most roles seem pretty positive overall for town compared than scum.

Andrew: Ganon seems like the main scum-favored utility role: if town, how many scum are going to be vanilla? 1?

in terms of alignment reads, ehhh? neither here nor there. Refer to previous post for verdict.

This post I don't like at all. chairs is like the towniest player around. And his role is not useless if we believe scum lied. They are less likely to lie as chairs claimed first, but we might still catch them. There are a lot of roles that will be worse. At the very least, chairs may detect redirection.

Also, lynching because of roles is bad. I mean there are some players where their potential role leads me to not want to lynch them right away, but that is maybe 2 or 3 and the rest is fair game.

Vote: O

[Joseph2302]

All to early post count to mean much but I had the time and it includes a subtraction of everyone’s pre-game posts so late this can be referenced easily to get accurate numbers:

mcmcsalot 34-1=33
faust 46-13=33
Teproc 15-3=12
Galzria 14-3=11
Joseph2302 12-1=11
ashersky 11-1=10
DatSwan 13-3=10
chairs 9-1=8
O 9-1=8
Robz888 10-3=7
gkrieg13 7-2=5
IDontPlayThisGame 9-5=4
AndrewisFTTW 6-3=3
seanbean 2-1=1

Wow I'm high on the post list. Must be towny then.

[Joseph2302]

Master Hand - can you confirm that Serial Killer is not an option that could possibly exist in this game?

Is this not good enough for you?

Once each player has a character, three are chosen to be aligned with Evil (more if more people sign up).

[...]

The remaining will be aligned with Good.

If it was, I would not of asked.

It bothers me when people cause more more for the mods unnecessarily. I realize I did the same with my untimely prod request. Sorry!

what is unnecessary for you, may not be the same for everyone. I have made enough mistakes in "assumptions" so far in my previous games to not feel bad about asking for simple clarifications from the one entity in the game I can actually rely on 100%. Also, FWIW, I assume by asking in the thread it saves the MOD time of potentially having to answer several of the same question in separate QTs.

This can't be true. I'm the SK. So it must be in the game

[faust]

This can't be true. I'm the SK. So it must be in the game

Are you sure that you are in the game?

[chairs]

Jesus ok apparently you don't want to be in this game then.

vote: Joseph2302.

[mcmcsalot]

happy to lynch either

chairs is a decent lynch because his role is useless, and most roles seem pretty positive overall for town compared than scum.

Andrew: Ganon seems like the main scum-favored utility role: if town, how many scum are going to be vanilla? 1?

in terms of alignment reads, ehhh? neither here nor there. Refer to previous post for verdict.

This post I don't like at all. chairs is like the towniest player around. And his role is not useless if we believe scum lied. They are less likely to lie as chairs claimed first, but we might still catch them. There are a lot of roles that will be worse. At the very least, chairs may detect redirection.

Also, lynching because of roles is bad. I mean there are some players where their potential role leads me to not want to lynch them right away, but that is maybe 2 or 3 and the rest is fair game.

Vote: O

I agree with everything you said but not the vote for o because of it.

[faust]

Do you think O is town? I also looked at his other posts... mostly, this is as much content as I could find. I found town!o from M100 to be a lot more engaged and confrontational.

[mcmcsalot]

Do you think O is town? I also looked at his other posts... mostly, this is as much content as I could find. I found town!o from M100 to be a lot more engaged and confrontational.

I don’t have a strong read on him though nothing he has done has struck me as unlike what I have seen from him in the past. I guess I don’t know what I would expect scum o to look like so it’s definitely a null read on him, I just think he’s definitely less scummy than galz/robz/gkrieg

[mcmcsalot]

Jesus ok apparently you don't want to be in this game then.

vote: Joseph2302.

I can’t tell if Joseph is scum leaning into the scum wouldn’t act like this defense or just acting like this because he doesn’t know what to do.

[O]

oh looky Faust got bored so he drummed up a vote for me with "here's some metagame portion i disagree with but have made literal 0 effort to explain why it's alignment indicative"


always happy to lynch faust btw

[Joseph2302]

Jesus ok apparently you don't want to be in this game then.

vote: Joseph2302.

I can’t tell if Joseph is scum leaning into the scum wouldn’t act like this defense or just acting like this because he doesn’t know what to do.

I'm good and never know really what to do D1.

I think faust is kind of towny right now though

[faust]

oh looky Faust got bored so he drummed up a vote for me with "here's some metagame portion i disagree with but have made literal 0 effort to explain why it's alignment indicative"


always happy to lynch faust btw

Kinda ironic coming from someone who wants to lynch based on non-alignment indicative stuff...

[O]

oh looky Faust got bored so he drummed up a vote for me with "here's some metagame portion i disagree with but have made literal 0 effort to explain why it's alignment indicative"


always happy to lynch faust btw

Kinda ironic coming from someone who wants to lynch based on non-alignment indicative stuff...

You're being quite dense. Have you not read the past five pages?

1. I state I have no substantial reads. You have ignored this entirely.
2. In the post immediately after that, I give role based analysis of why I don't mind lynch candidates. I don't vote for either of them.
3. Later on, I propose a alignment-based theory on why Robz!Ashersky are acting the way they are
4. My vote, which is my largest indicator of how I want to lynch, is based on said alignment based read.

It's always the people who over value the "logical persona" as a front that don't actually have a shred of consistency to their points.

[faust]

oh looky Faust got bored so he drummed up a vote for me with "here's some metagame portion i disagree with but have made literal 0 effort to explain why it's alignment indicative"


always happy to lynch faust btw

Kinda ironic coming from someone who wants to lynch based on non-alignment indicative stuff...

You're being quite dense. Have you not read the past five pages?

1. I state I have no substantial reads. You have ignored this entirely.
2. In the post immediately after that, I give role based analysis of why I don't mind lynch candidates. I don't vote for either of them.
3. Later on, I propose a alignment-based theory on why Robz!Ashersky are acting the way they are
4. My vote, which is my largest indicator of how I want to lynch, is based on said alignment based read.

It's always the people who over value the "logical persona" as a front that don't actually have a shred of consistency to their points.

Here I was, thinking you voted ashersky because he wanted to be lynched. Silly me to think that...

idk guys he kinda sounds like he wants to be lynched

who am i to deny that pleasure

Ah.

Where ash/Robz is concerned, I am not going to take D1 partner theories seriously, sorry.

[O]

oh looky Faust got bored so he drummed up a vote for me with "here's some metagame portion i disagree with but have made literal 0 effort to explain why it's alignment indicative"


always happy to lynch faust btw

Kinda ironic coming from someone who wants to lynch based on non-alignment indicative stuff...

You're being quite dense. Have you not read the past five pages?

1. I state I have no substantial reads. You have ignored this entirely.
2. In the post immediately after that, I give role based analysis of why I don't mind lynch candidates. I don't vote for either of them.
3. Later on, I propose a alignment-based theory on why Robz!Ashersky are acting the way they are
4. My vote, which is my largest indicator of how I want to lynch, is based on said alignment based read.

It's always the people who over value the "logical persona" as a front that don't actually have a shred of consistency to their points.

Here I was, thinking you voted ashersky because he wanted to be lynched. Silly me to think that...

idk guys he kinda sounds like he wants to be lynched

who am i to deny that pleasure

Ah.

Where ash/Robz is concerned, I am not going to take D1 partner theories seriously, sorry.

I'm confused -- now you're claiming that I'm trying to lynch people because they wanted to be lynched! (Even that comment was clearly facetious)

Just a few posts ago you claimed to be voting for me because of my entirely non-intersecting set of lynch priorities of role analysis.

Am I voting for Chairs because of his role? (Nope)
Am I voting for Ashersky because he wants to be lynched? (Nope)
Am I voting for Ashersky because I think it's quite convenient that the potential deathproof and potential vengeful specifically tried to set up a lynch scenario? (Yep)

Which of the two joke posts would you like to take seriously? You can pick one but not both, sorry.

[O]

Do you think O is town? I also looked at his other posts... mostly, this is as much content as I could find. I found town!o from M100 to be a lot more engaged and confrontational.

You actually claim to have looked at all my posts before voting for me.

You then proceeded to pick a completely out of date motif ("O isn't voting off alignment") place it completely out of context, and claim that I hadn't provided any other content when I had pretty objectively provided other content that is entirely read/alignment based.

Is someone else going to come in here and tell me I'm crazy? Faust's argument literally doesn't match up at all. This isn't even subjective -- he cannot have read all my posts to that point while believing I had provided no other content, and specifically only role utility based content. His post is as close as you can get to being objectively false about a read in this game.

Vote: Faust

[mcmcsalot]

I’m here O, let me break it down for you since I do think you v faust is town v town.

Faust votes you for your response to my question to you about Andrew/Chairs. He didn’t like that you said you would be fine lynchig either (Chairs is a strong town read of his) for what looked to him like mostly role reasons. You explained you would be okay lynching either because Chairs role is fairly useless and andrews was scum-favored utility. You even said as far as alignment goes neither her nor there.

So faust doesn’t like that and votes you. I agree with him that lynching people based off roles is silly and that Chairs is townie, but disagree that it merits voting you, I asked you a question you responded, you weren’t even voting them. To Faust, I think you misunderstood O’s post in a vacuum and not as it relates to answering my question.

Then you go on to vote ash because of the theory that him and robz could be cooking stuff up. Here I mostly agree with the people who think it’s more just robz and ash regardless of alignment playing toward pretending to both be pr’s which is good. Since I think ash was scummy (less so with his recent posts) I don’t mind your vote on him and think Fausts is silly for totally throwing out your theory as “d1 partner theories” he just won’t hear. I would say at least you are coming up with a theory.

In summary you are both just trying to find scum and stop voting for eachother.

[mcmcsalot]

Also the more time that goes by with gkrieg not posting as much as I suspect and people not really having good reasons to debate my case but also not super acknowledging that I’m pushing it repeatedly, the happier I am with my vote there. Hard wagons to make are scum wagons.

[mcmcsalot]

And since it seems to be kinda dead here are my thoughts on what powers should do.

Investigators:
IDontPlayThisGame - [Pichu] - (Weak Visitor) - Mewtwo can mess pichu up no matter who pichu is targeting however Yoshi only needs to block pichu if the event he is targeting mafia. I think it is best for pichu to not claim target until the next day.
chairs - [Captain Falcon] - (Modified Flavor Cop) - Even more so then Pichu I dont think Chairs has to claim any target before hand, I seriously doubt he is high on mafia's kill list and should be able to reveal info the next day.
seanbean - [Marth] - (Tracker) - Sean should definitely not claim his target as that only gives re-directors info. Use your own judgment upon when to claim info if you have it.

Pro Town PR's:
Teproc - [Link] - (Jack-Of-All-Trades) - Use your own judgment about Blocking a redirector/possible nonpower mafia read, Tracking a redirector/mafia read, and doctoring an investigator/doctor.
faust - [Sheik] - (Even-Night Ninja Doctor) - Use your own judgment

Flex PR's:
Mcmcsalot [Mr. Game and Watch] - (Neighborizer) - Anyone I neighborize has to trust me to give me any info but I think it's the best use to neighborize an investigator to spread the info they receive to multiple sources. The other things I can do are neighborize a person to "check" for mewtwo/fox redirection or simply neighborize a top town read to have private analysis.
AndrewisFTTW - [Ganondorf] - (1-shot Limited Vigilante) - Always in favor of saving vig shots, also I think its good to save for a later time when we are about to lynch someone who claims a pr to get off of lynch, thats a nice way to check if they are telling the truth.
Joseph2302 - [Yoshi] - (Roleblocker) - Same as Link, best to block a galz/datswan or a non action mafia read.

Redirection:
gkrieg13 - [Mewtwo] - (2-shot Inverting Redirector) - I think you should claim your targets each day so investigators/protectors/trackers no how to avoid you but mafia doesn't know if you are going to screw with their oracle or not. You would then not tell us if you did or did not use the power as everyone should be avoiding you it won't matter. We turn you purely into a PR protector by making oracle suspect.
Galzria - [Fox] - (2-shot Diverter) - Divert things off of you to a mafia read, investigators and protectors should not be aiming your way to prevent being diverted.
DatSwan - [Pikachu] - (1-shot Lightning Rod) - Just don't I think the only use of this should be if we know we have a doc available. Then you announce I am going to use this tonight, the only town powers used are a doctor and a tracker, this forces a no kill night. (caveat if mafia!teproc can make him self ascetic and resolve before lr would hit him he could then make the mafia kill go somewhere else)


Non actionable powers
O - [Kirby] - (Universal Backup) - When the first non-Vanilla player dies, you will inherit their powers. If a X-shot PR dies with no shots left, it will not be valid for inheritance.
ashersky - [Bowser] - (Supersaint) - If you are lynched, you will also kill whoever cast the hammer vote.
Robz888 - [Ice Climbers] - (1-shot Deathproof) - The first time you would be killed (including lynches), you will survive.

[O]

@MCMC

The problem isn't whether Faust liked or disliked my original post, it's that he portrayed it as how I was voting this game when it was clearly not.

Faust also claimed that I hadn't posted other content. He also claimed to have read all my other posts.

You have to agree that there's clear falsehoods somewhere in what Faust wrote, yes?

[ashersky]

ashersky, could you explain why you did not claim when you posted: "I counterclaim momsalon"?

Didn’t want to spoil any fun.  Didn’t really think it mattered what order we claimed anyway.  I don’t expect fakers.

[mcmcsalot]

@MCMC

The problem isn't whether Faust liked or disliked my original post, it's that he portrayed it as how I was voting this game when it was clearly not.

Faust also claimed that I hadn't posted other content. He also claimed to have read all my other posts.

You have to agree that there's clear falsehoods somewhere in what Faust wrote, yes?

I think falsehoods is a stretch, less than accurate rereading and over exaggerated point making leading to not fully correct statements is more apt. And I don’t think thats scummy from faust. I mean if he wants to sit with his vote on you for like three days and double down on how supernscummy he thinks you are then yea I might change my mind, for now he’s still a town read.

[gkrieg13]

Redirection:
gkrieg13 - [Mewtwo] - (2-shot Inverting Redirector) - I think you should claim your targets each day so investigators/protectors/trackers no how to avoid you but mafia doesn't know if you are going to screw with their oracle or not. You would then not tell us if you did or did not use the power as everyone should be avoiding you it won't matter. We turn you purely into a PR protector by making oracle suspect.

You can't be serious with this.  You realize that there isn't any point to my role if I announce my targets beforehand right?

[gkrieg13]

I think you are discounting the effect town!redirectors can have.  Just think about what happened in Rewind when iguana redirected a shot that ended up killing mafia.

[mcmcsalot]

I think you are discounting the effect town!redirectors can have.  Just think about what happened in Rewind when iguana redirected a shot that ended up killing mafia.

I’m not discounting the effect, I just don’t know your town and I’m not afraid of scum!doctor potentially killing cops and messing with trackers.

[Teproc]

I don't know if faust v O is town v town, but I know it's not very interesting or indicative of much. I guess O comes off slightly scummy.

Sean isn't posting. Probably because he's scum, but also : sean, you should be posting.

@gkrieg: If you're town (and a PR), your role is super swingy. I'd say you should definitely not use it night 1, and I will assume you're scum if you do. Chaos at night is generally good for scum... yes, you can come up with a bunch of dreams scenarios where it's great, but on average VT is more pro-town than whatever redirector might be.

I understand you disagree, but, well, you're wrong. Using redirection powers as town is just making the game more random... and the fact that mafia knows who the potential redirection roles are makes it even worse because they can plan somewhat accordingly. Granted, town PRs can as well, but they have less info so it's harder for them.

[Teproc]

I'm talking about N1 here, btw. It does get viable to use it later on.

[O]

I don't know if faust v O is town v town, but I know it's not very interesting or indicative of much. I guess O comes off slightly scummy.

So are you willing to defend Faust's statements?

Seriously. Explain to me how he wasn't entirely false.

Vote: Teproc

Tired of Faust spewing crap, verifiably false crap, and you expecting me not to respond.

[O]

Unvote voted out  frustration but its really obvious that you didn't actually read the argument imo

[Teproc]

I only care if it makes him scum, and I don't see that it does.

I skimmed it. I think you're both misrepresenting each other.

[O]

I only care if it makes him scum, and I don't see that it does.

I skimmed it. I think you're both misrepresenting each other.

so you didn't really read it but have a complete grasp of the situation, got it.

[IDontPlayThisGame]

This just seems like a really ashersky thing to do. I'm not seeing the scumread, but if he wants to be today's lynch I won't stop him.

Do you by any chance have thoughts on anyone else?

Not really. A bunch of null reads so far.

[mcmcsalot]

I only care if it makes him scum, and I don't see that it does.

I skimmed it. I think you're both misrepresenting each other.

so you didn't really read it but have a complete grasp of the situation, got it.

Interesting that you responded to teproc who did indeed summarize his statements about you v faust but not respond to me who explained it all quite indepthly

[O]

I only care if it makes him scum, and I don't see that it does.

I skimmed it. I think you're both misrepresenting each other.

so you didn't really read it but have a complete grasp of the situation, got it.

Interesting that you responded to teproc who did indeed summarize his statements about you v faust but not respond to me who explained it all quite indepthly

i mostly agreed with you

[faust]

I'm confused -- now you're claiming that I'm trying to lynch people because they wanted to be lynched! (Even that comment was clearly facetious)

At least I didn't see another reason for your vote, except for a partner conspiracy.

Just a few posts ago you claimed to be voting for me because of my entirely non-intersecting set of lynch priorities of role analysis.

No I did not.

Am I voting for Chairs because of his role? (Nope)
Am I voting for Ashersky because he wants to be lynched? (Nope)
Am I voting for Ashersky because I think it's quite convenient that the potential deathproof and potential vengeful specifically tried to set up a lynch scenario? (Yep)

I never said you were voting for chairs. If you're voting for ash because of a partner conspiracy rather than because he wants to be lynched, then that does hardly hlep your case.

[O]

I never said you were voting for chairs. If you're voting for ash because of a partner conspiracy rather than because he wants to be lynched, then that does hardly hlep your case.

I disagree. A primary worry of any D1 lynch case is "It seems highly likely that scum our on this wagon, and scum don't bus d1"

Here if scum want to bus D1 it removes any doubt I had of the Ashersky wagon.

[O]

Just a few posts ago you claimed to be voting for me because of my entirely non-intersecting set of lynch priorities of role analysis.

No I did not.

It was your primary dislike of my post in the quote you chose to place alongside your vote for me. I'll stand by my statement.

[Archetype]

Vote Count 1.5

ashersky(1): Robz888
gkrieg13(2):Joseph2302, mcmcsalot
Joseph2302(3): gkrieg13, Galzria, chairs
seanbean(1): Teproc
O (1): faust

Not Voting (6): ashersky, DatSwan, seanbean, AndrewisFTTW, IDontPlayThisGame, O

With 14 alive it takes 8 to lynch. Day 1 will end December 27th at 7:00 PM.

Master Hand - can you confirm that Serial Killer is not an option that could possibly exist in this game?

There is no SK

[Joseph2302]

Vote Count 1.5

ashersky(1): Robz888
gkrieg13(2):Joseph2302, mcmcsalot
Joseph2302(3): gkrieg13, Galzria, chairs
seanbean(1): Teproc
O (1): faust

Not Voting (6): ashersky, DatSwan, seanbean, AndrewisFTTW, IDontPlayThisGame, O

With 14 alive it takes 8 to lynch. Day 1 will end December 27th at 7:00 PM.

Master Hand - can you confirm that Serial Killer is not an option that could possibly exist in this game?

There is no SK

Well there's no decent wagon yet. Biggest wagon is on me for some reason.

You're all crazy, I'm scum reading all of you

[Joseph2302]

I know it's Christmastime, but it's been 19 hours since anyone other than me posted.

Right now, I don't want to lynch any of the few players that have been active and contributing.
But I kind of feel at this rate we'll just get a mad scramble at deadline time, or a no lynch if not enough people are around at that time.

[chairs]

I know it's Christmastime, but it's been 19 hours since anyone other than me posted.

Right now, I don't want to lynch any of the few players that have been active and contributing.
But I kind of feel at this rate we'll just get a mad scramble at deadline time, or a no lynch if not enough people are around at that time.

I'm voting for you because you claimed to be the SK that doesn't exist in this setup.

[Galzria]

I know it's Christmastime, but it's been 19 hours since anyone other than me posted.

Right now, I don't want to lynch any of the few players that have been active and contributing.
But I kind of feel at this rate we'll just get a mad scramble at deadline time, or a no lynch if not enough people are around at that time.

I'm voting for you because you claimed to be the SK that doesn't exist in this setup.

I'm voting for him for claiming to know Gkrieg is town.

[gkrieg13]

I’m voting him partially fromOMGUS RVS and mostly because he said I would be a mislynch.

[Joseph2302]

I’m voting him partially fromOMGUS RVS and mostly because he said I would be a mislynch.

Last 2 games i've played with you we've mislynched you D1 or D2. That's what I was referring to

[ashersky]

I’m expecting to check in a few times a day max over the next few days, FYI.

[Joseph2302]

I’m expecting to check in a few times a day max over the next few days, FYI.

Same for most people I guess. I'm V/LA tomorrow & St Stephen's Day

[Swowl]

Sorry I have not been around. Nothing has happened since holiday time. Still don't like any wagons. I will be back intermittently today, and a lot tomorrow. Very little on 26th, then good to go after that to deadline. Sorry for lack of content thus far.

[chairs]

Semi-VLA myself starting tomorrow.

[ashersky]

Happy Christmas to any who celebrate it!  Happy day off to those who don’t!

[faust]

Hi, my VLA will be extended somewhat, but i should return before deadline.

[Teproc]

Still V/LA-ish, but back to posting here... game is dead, I guess my vote on sean isn't helping (though I can't say I've seen any compelling reason not to lynch him either), but I don't like the Joseph wagon. gkrieg I could see being scum though, so vote: gkrieg.

[chairs]

Ugh.

I'd personally vote between Joseph ("I'm the SK" - yes, I know there's no SK, but he still claimed to be one) and seanbean ("I may never return to the forums for all I'm posting").

[Joseph2302]

Ugh.

I'd personally vote between Joseph ("I'm the SK" - yes, I know there's no SK, but he still claimed to be one) and seanbean ("I may never return to the forums for all I'm posting").

Vote: seanbean then

[Teproc]

vote: seanbean then.

[Archetype]

Vote Count 1.6

ashersky(1): Robz888
gkrieg13(1): mcmcsalot
Joseph2302(3): gkrieg13, Galzria, chairs
seanbean(2): Joseph2302, Teproc
O (1): faust

Not Voting (6): ashersky, DatSwan, seanbean, AndrewisFTTW, IDontPlayThisGame, O

With 14 alive it takes 8 to lynch. Day 1 will end December 27th at 7:00 PM (~17 hours).

[Joseph2302]

It's deadline day- let's get the wagons rolling!

[Teproc]

It is ? Oh dear.

BTW, Joseph pointing this out in this spot is another reason not to lynch him.

[Teproc]

I won't be around at deadline, but I'll be there a few hours before it.

[Joseph2302]

I suspect that unfortunately we'll get no lynch due to lack of availability. Hopefully we can avoid that if a decent number of people come online at least once today

[gkrieg13]

It is ? Oh dear.

BTW, Joseph pointing this out in this spot is another reason not to lynch him.

I don’t think pointing out deadlines is a good reason to not lynch anyone. Going for the newbie by voting when they will probably get modkilled or replaced is though. It is like the ultimate cop out strategy.

[Robz888]

Sorry I am driving back to DC from Detroit all day.

vote: Joseph to help get a lynch.

Can check back before deadline, maybe.

[O]

Extend maybe...? holidays seemed to have (rightfully) drawn all of us away

[O]

Not going to vote for Joseph because i'd rather slightly harm my statistical chances at victory than have a new player be a default random lynch because of deadline. It's too lame.

[ashersky]

Joseph is not new.

[O]

Joseph is not new.

oh

[mcmcsalot]

Extend maybe...? holidays seemed to have (rightfully) drawn all of us away

No extension, we have already had a long day 1. It wasn’t the holidays, no one wants to make cases or discuss.

The Joseph lynch is almost certain to not hit scum based the fact that there isn’t really a case on him, and how long the wagon has existed before deadline with no one making a counter case or defending him.

Seanbean seems like a sad lynch but I would request a prod on seanbean and unless he says he will post, I would request replacement. Literally one post all day is unacceptable.

I suggest we either lynch gkrieg because I made a case on him I think is decent (he offered a poor shallow defense of ash seemingly without much research or care before he made the defense which suggests not town defending an unknown allignment player.

Or there is the case to be made for lynching robz I don’t think he has been very towny at all today, he is potentially 1-Shot deathproof, which is very dangerous if he is active and scum.

The setup does allow for one nolynch without changing the number of mislynches we are allowed. This means a no lynch or a burning of robz 1-Shot deathproof are both okay options. The counter argument to this is that currently one prevented nightkill (via doc/rb/a ln active town robz) grants us an additional mislynch. If we no lynch a blocked nk no longer gives us an additional mislynch.

[Galzria]

The case on Joseph is stronger than that on Gkrieg or Robz.

[Galzria]

But then that's an extremely low bar.

[Joseph2302]

Extend maybe...? holidays seemed to have (rightfully) drawn all of us away

No extension, we have already had a long day 1. It wasn’t the holidays, no one wants to make cases or discuss.

The Joseph lynch is almost certain to not hit scum based the fact that there isn’t really a case on him, and how long the wagon has existed before deadline with no one making a counter case or defending him.

Seanbean seems like a sad lynch but I would request a prod on seanbean and unless he says he will post, I would request replacement. Literally one post all day is unacceptable.

I suggest we either lynch gkrieg because I made a case on him I think is decent (he offered a poor shallow defense of ash seemingly without much research or care before he made the defense which suggests not town defending an unknown allignment player.

Or there is the case to be made for lynching robz I don’t think he has been very towny at all today, he is potentially 1-Shot deathproof, which is very dangerous if he is active and scum.

The setup does allow for one nolynch without changing the number of mislynches we are allowed. This means a no lynch or a burning of robz 1-Shot deathproof are both okay options. The counter argument to this is that currently one prevented nightkill (via doc/rb/a ln active town robz) grants us an additional mislynch. If we no lynch a blocked nk no longer gives us an additional mislynch.

Seanbean is a sad lynch, but if they're not playing, then them being here is no help either

[Joseph2302]

I'm around til deadline

[Teproc]

It is ? Oh dear.

BTW, Joseph pointing this out in this spot is another reason not to lynch him.

I don’t think pointing out deadlines is a good reason to not lynch anyone. Going for the newbie by voting when they will probably get modkilled or replaced is though. It is like the ultimate cop out strategy.

Joseph was the main wagon. Him pointing that out is actively detrimental to his survival. Also I actually have a "case" (as much as one can have with how the day's gone) on seanbean... I don't think potential modkills should be expected or taken into account.

But you know, we could also lynch you, that'd be fine by me.

[Archetype]

Vote Count 1.7

gkrieg13(1): mcmcsalot
Joseph2302(4): gkrieg13, Galzria, chairs, Robz888
seanbean(2): Joseph2302, Teproc
O (1): faust

Not Voting (6): ashersky, DatSwan, seanbean, Eevee, IDontPlayThisGame, O

With 14 alive it takes 8 to lynch. Day 1 will end December 28th at 7:00 PM.


Eevee has replaced AndrewisFTTW
Prod sent to seanbean

I extended the deadline an additional day due to lack of activity yesterday and player substitutions

[faust]

yay fro deadline extensions!

I hope we'll get a replacement. In the meantime, people could vote for O.

[Eevee]

Sup guys!

I'll get home in a couple hours, and will start to read through the thread then. I'll be able to catch up tonight in preparation for tomorrow's deadline.

[ashersky]

vote: Robz

Low risk, high reward.

[Swowl]

vote: seanbean

don't really see a downside to this.

[Teproc]

Thanks for the extension Arch.

vote: seanbean

don't really see a downside to this.

Well this is scummier than anything sean has done.

vote: DatSwan

[Eevee]

mcmc seems the towniest. I liked his thinking on the gkrieg-case, but there were other instances where I thought gkriek looked towny to me, so I'm not very excited about that. Joseph becoming a prodder of others when he is the leading wagon makes me not want to lynch him. ash seems in his own class in terms of scumminess, but his role is of course problematic. Angry O seems a teeny bit towny (I still like the fun O more). Slight scumread on seanbean, scum has more incentive to not post (although this level of not posting is probably not very alignment-indicative). Why are people townreading IDPTG? I have no opinion on him, and feel like I'm missing something. chairs seems slightly towny.

No opinion on Robz, Galzria, Teproc, O or DatSwan.

[Eevee]

Ash being my only scumread is not great, but the way the day ran wasn't the most conducive for making substantive reads.

Can we get a good deadline scramble going? A lot can be achieved in a mere few hours when a lot of people get online at the same time and go crazy. With this many people alive, we could get really wild.

[Eevee]

I actually did find Robz slightly towny for something, just forgot what it was. Some joke or otherwise controversial thing I think he would be more likely to self-censor if he was scum. Super thin reads, just like most of the others.

[Robz888]

More time! That’s good. I will resume usual activity in the morning.

I read Andrew’s lack of activity as curious enough to be a possible scum indicator, but a replacement into higher activity Eevee (who I think is easier to read over the fullness of time anyway) makes me less inclined to lynch there.

Very hard to read seanbean. I believe he is an archetype friend who got roped in because he likes the theme? Could easily just be an overwhelmed newbie realizing mafia isn’t his thing. I think this is indeed slightly more likely to happen to a scum newbie though than a town one. I do not think seanbean is a terrible Lynch, on these grounds, although it has the drawback of being un-informational. I definitely like this lynch more than the Joseph one, now that I’ve thought about it though.

Gkrieg is a higher risk / higher reward lynch. It’s a risk because I’d rather not lost town gkrieg. But Mcmc is real sure of his case, and in these situations he ends up right more often than a lot of players. On the other hand I don’t find his play quite so unquestionably townie. A gkrieg flip would tell me more about mcmc, which is a boon.

vote: gkrieg for now

 

[Robz888]

Thanks for the extension Arch.

vote: seanbean

don't really see a downside to this.

Well this is scummier than anything sean has done.

vote: DatSwan

You think that wasn’t just clumsy phrasing?

[Eevee]

What would you learn of mcmc if gkrieg flipped scum/town?

[Robz888]

What would you learn of mcmc if gkrieg flipped scum/town?

If gkrieg flipped scum, mcmc would be town for certain. If gkrieg flipped town, I would really think mcmc is scum.

[IDontPlayThisGame]

Saw the deadline extension and got drunk. I'll have a reads list by tomorrow.

[mcmcsalot]

Saw the deadline extension and got drunk. I'll have a reads list by tomorrow.

My man!

[gkrieg13]

mcmc seems the towniest. I liked his thinking on the gkrieg-case, but there were other instances where I thought gkriek looked towny to me, so I'm not very excited about that. Joseph becoming a prodder of others when he is the leading wagon makes me not want to lynch him. ash seems in his own class in terms of scumminess, but his role is of course problematic. Angry O seems a teeny bit towny (I still like the fun O more). Slight scumread on seanbean, scum has more incentive to not post (although this level of not posting is probably not very alignment-indicative). Why are people townreading IDPTG? I have no opinion on him, and feel like I'm missing something. chairs seems slightly towny.

No opinion on Robz, Galzria, Teproc, O or DatSwan.

Why is prodding people townie?  It’s like super easy to do as scum, and is more indicative of the player than anything.

[Eevee]

I meant prodding the town as a whole. I think scum, as a leading wagon, would be more likely to go after someone, hoping their partners would help fan the flames.

[Teproc]

Second time now that gkrieg misrepresents this argument as "prodding=town".

@Robz: Sure, but scum is generally clumsier when it comes to justifying votes.

At this point, I'd be happy to lynch Swan, gkrieg or sean. Could lynch Robz too, setting up (mis)lynches with the mcmc/gkrieg comment.

[faust]

Vote: Teproc

[Teproc]

Vote: Teproc

Why ?

[Robz888]

Vote: Teproc

Why ?

Not sure about faust's reasoning, but for my part I heartily dispute the idea that I'm setting up subsequent lynches of any sort, and I resent your implication that that's what I'm doing. I said gkrieg being town would make mcmc scummier, and vice versa (well not vice versa... you know what I mean), and hey, that's absolutely true, can you even dispute it? You jumped on the comment and claimed it was scummy, when really it's just, you know, doing basic scum hunting. Of course a gkrieg flip says something about mcmc.

[Joseph2302]

Deadline day, 7.5 hrs to go I believe

[Robz888]

Deadline day, 7.5 hrs to go I believe

Everyone is well aware. Why don't you react to some or any of the posts since your last visit?

[Joseph2302]

Deadline day, 7.5 hrs to go I believe

Everyone is well aware. Why don't you react to some or any of the posts since your last visit?

Okay so I think Teproc is towny.

[Joseph2302]

There, I've contributed more in that 1 post than half the people playing have all game

[O]

There, I've contributed more in that 1 post than half the people playing have all game

why is he towny

[Joseph2302]

There, I've contributed more in that 1 post than half the people playing have all game

why is he towny

I just think he is, which is enough for me to not want to lynch him D1.

We should lynch out of all the people who've done nothing all week.

[O]

There, I've contributed more in that 1 post than half the people playing have all game

why is he towny

I just think he is, which is enough for me to not want to lynch him D1.

We should lynch out of all the people who've done nothing all week.

who has done nothing all week except for the actual new guy?

[Teproc]

Vote: Teproc

Why ?

Not sure about faust's reasoning, but for my part I heartily dispute the idea that I'm setting up subsequent lynches of any sort, and I resent your implication that that's what I'm doing. I said gkrieg being town would make mcmc scummier, and vice versa (well not vice versa... you know what I mean), and hey, that's absolutely true, can you even dispute it? You jumped on the comment and claimed it was scummy, when really it's just, you know, doing basic scum hunting. Of course a gkrieg flip says something about mcmc.

It is not absolutely true, not even close. gkrieg flipping town would not make mcmc scummier to me in any way... town is on mislynches all the time.

Specifically, you saying "let's lynch gkrieg because mcmc believes in it and I think he's town but if he's wrong, well..." is super scummy. It's both absolving you of responsibility for the gkrieg lynch and totally setting up two mislynches : gkrieg and mcmc. Well, you know, that's assuming they're town, which who knows, but that's the way in which your thing was scummy.

[Teproc]

Pushing very hard for a mislynch is more townie than scummy on day 1 I would say, in general.

[Robz888]

Vote: Teproc

Why ?

Not sure about faust's reasoning, but for my part I heartily dispute the idea that I'm setting up subsequent lynches of any sort, and I resent your implication that that's what I'm doing. I said gkrieg being town would make mcmc scummier, and vice versa (well not vice versa... you know what I mean), and hey, that's absolutely true, can you even dispute it? You jumped on the comment and claimed it was scummy, when really it's just, you know, doing basic scum hunting. Of course a gkrieg flip says something about mcmc.

It is not absolutely true, not even close. gkrieg flipping town would not make mcmc scummier to me in any way... town is on mislynches all the time.

Specifically, you saying "let's lynch gkrieg because mcmc believes in it and I think he's town but if he's wrong, well..." is super scummy. It's both absolving you of responsibility for the gkrieg lynch and totally setting up two mislynches : gkrieg and mcmc. Well, you know, that's assuming they're town, which who knows, but that's the way in which your thing was scummy.

Did you miss Mafia 107, where town!mcmc correctly fixated on gkrieg as scum very early on? If mcmc is wrong about gkrieg here, after being so right about gkrieg that other time--not that long ago--I'm saying to myself, what's different, is what's different that mcmc is now scum, that definitely could be. The whole "oh, but town players can make mistakes" thing is true in general but not always, and here's a good example of why that is.

[IDontPlayThisGame]

As promised:

1. mcmcsalot - Not sure.
2. ashersky - Town for now. The way he went about claiming Bowser reminds me of town!ash.
3. Galzria - I don't have much to back it up, but he seems towny.
4. DatSwan - Null. I don't like the tone of some of his posts, but that isn't much for me to base a read off.
5. Robz888 - He mentioned a read of seanbean as if it was something real and a couple other things that people have said. I also think he's vanilla scum, so I'm fine with the "lynch ash if Robz hammers" plan. Which of course backfires if it's vanilla!ash.
6. seanbean - Scummy. I believe new!town finds a way to post whereas new!scum might not know what to say and try to hide. However, the complete lack of other posts might invalidate that a bit.
7. Eevee - Didn't see much from Andrew, haven't formed an opinion of Eevee yet.
8. faust - Townish I guess.
9. Joseph2302 - scummy for the SK bit and meta argument.
10. gkrieg13 - I just did a reread and I already forgot why I found him scummy.
11. Teproc - Not sure
12. chairs - Not sure
14. O - Not sure

And before anyone calls me out on it, yes, I know that doesn't say a ton other than scumreading Robz. But it's what I've got. I'm at a training for a lot of today.

Pushing very hard for a mislynch is more townie than scummy on day 1 I would say, in general.

Eh. Disagree.

[Robz888]

Pushing very hard for a mislynch is more townie than scummy on day 1 I would say, in general.

I don't know if that's true, I think certain scum players push very hard for Day 1 mislynches precisely because of the theory you outlined, they can just turn around be like "well, I was wrong, but town mislynches all the time, don't you know that, just ask Teproc."

I also don't know if mcmc is pushing *very* hard against gkrieg. Also also you seem pretty confident gkrieg would be a mislynch, or at least, you keep phrasing it that way by default.

[Eevee]

I think this is townRobz.

[faust]

Vote: Teproc

Why ?

Your scumread on DatSwan looks fake. Your are very comfortable for scum: willing to lynch all candidates except one (Joseph), without much of a reason why. You voted DatSwan for what he said about his seanbean vote when for all I can tell you voted him for the very same reasons, just not being explicit. oh, there's also the fact that you pushed one of the strongest potential PRs without any solid reasoning.

[faust]

6. seanbean - Scummy. I believe new!town finds a way to post whereas new!scum might not know what to say and try to hide. However, the complete lack of other posts might invalidate that a bit.

this is also ridiculous reasoning, as Idplay manages to figure out himself in the second part of the quote, but somehow still puts a "scummy" label.

I would also be willing to lynch here I suppose.

[faust]

Um, Idplay, want to do some target announcing?

[Robz888]

Idplay is contributing more than Joseph, although one could make the argument that Joseph's lack of useful content isn't alignment indicative.

[Eevee]

Vote: IDPTG

I like fausts's case on teproc the second best.

[Robz888]

I think the scummiest thing Idplay did there was leave without placing a vote. Everybody should be voting at this point.

[Joseph2302]

I think the scummiest thing Idplay did there was leave without placing a vote. Everybody should be voting at this point.

That is scummy though. So Vote: IDPTG since the wagon on seanbean doesn't seem to be happening

[ashersky]

Teproc is towny.

[Archetype]

Vote Count 1.8

gkrieg13(2): mcmcsalot, Robz888
Joseph202(3): gkrieg13, Galzria, chairs
Robz888 (1): ashersky
Teproc (1): faust
IDPTG (2): Eevee, Joseph2302
DatSwan(1): Teproc
seanbean(1): DatSwan

Not Voting (3): seanbean, IDontPlayThisGame, O

With 14 alive it takes 8 to lynch. Day 1 will end December 28th at 7:00 PM.

[Teproc]

Vote: Teproc

Why ?

Not sure about faust's reasoning, but for my part I heartily dispute the idea that I'm setting up subsequent lynches of any sort, and I resent your implication that that's what I'm doing. I said gkrieg being town would make mcmc scummier, and vice versa (well not vice versa... you know what I mean), and hey, that's absolutely true, can you even dispute it? You jumped on the comment and claimed it was scummy, when really it's just, you know, doing basic scum hunting. Of course a gkrieg flip says something about mcmc.

It is not absolutely true, not even close. gkrieg flipping town would not make mcmc scummier to me in any way... town is on mislynches all the time.

Specifically, you saying "let's lynch gkrieg because mcmc believes in it and I think he's town but if he's wrong, well..." is super scummy. It's both absolving you of responsibility for the gkrieg lynch and totally setting up two mislynches : gkrieg and mcmc. Well, you know, that's assuming they're town, which who knows, but that's the way in which your thing was scummy.

Did you miss Mafia 107, where town!mcmc correctly fixated on gkrieg as scum very early on? If mcmc is wrong about gkrieg here, after being so right about gkrieg that other time--not that long ago--I'm saying to myself, what's different, is what's different that mcmc is now scum, that definitely could be. The whole "oh, but town players can make mistakes" thing is true in general but not always, and here's a good example of why that is.

Ok, that makes sense. I didn't particularly recall that part of M107, no.

[Teproc]

Vote: Teproc

Why ?

Your scumread on DatSwan looks fake. Your are very comfortable for scum: willing to lynch all candidates except one (Joseph), without much of a reason why. You voted DatSwan for what he said about his seanbean vote when for all I can tell you voted him for the very same reasons, just not being explicit. oh, there's also the fact that you pushed one of the strongest potential PRs without any solid reasoning.

My vote on seanbean keeps being misrepresented as a vote for inactivity, when it is a vote for claiming immediately without hesitation, something that was actually discussed so you might think people would know about it.

Also, what's scummy is not the vote or the reason for it, but the awkwardness of the justification and the timing. Two people can post the exact same thing but one can be scummy and the other townie just because of context. But you know that.

[Teproc]

I guess my vote is not very useful where it is.

vote: gkrieg

[O]

Pushing very hard for a mislynch is more townie than scummy on day 1 I would say, in general.

really the only townie thing d1 is lynching scum

[O]

Vote: Ashersky

bold argumentative ashersky was scum ashersky with my sample size n = 1.

i don't like the way his wagon died entirely randomly.

These arbitrary "eh I guess I could vote for Gkrieg" votes seem fishy. Don't see why people are townreading teproc

[faust]

Vote: Teproc

Why ?

Your scumread on DatSwan looks fake. Your are very comfortable for scum: willing to lynch all candidates except one (Joseph), without much of a reason why. You voted DatSwan for what he said about his seanbean vote when for all I can tell you voted him for the very same reasons, just not being explicit. oh, there's also the fact that you pushed one of the strongest potential PRs without any solid reasoning.

My vote on seanbean keeps being misrepresented as a vote for inactivity, when it is a vote for claiming immediately without hesitation, something that was actually discussed so you might think people would know about it.

Also, what's scummy is not the vote or the reason for it, but the awkwardness of the justification and the timing. Two people can post the exact same thing but one can be scummy and the other townie just because of context. But you know that.

You're right about your reasons for seanbean of course. I forgot because well there were holidays in between and I still don't have a lot of time here. I don't agree with your reasoning and I think voting for seanbean is bad, but you did give a reason.

I could vote Idplay, but it's not really a high-value target. If that guy is a PR, it's one that gives zero benefit to scum. On the other hand, as scum, we will get info from him and there's a good chance that he will die.

[gkrieg13]

I actually think Joseph is scummy here. I could vote IDPTG as well.

[Robz888]

Vote: Ashersky

bold argumentative ashersky was scum ashersky with my sample size n = 1.

i don't like the way his wagon died entirely randomly.

These arbitrary "eh I guess I could vote for Gkrieg" votes seem fishy. Don't see why people are townreading teproc

What's your sample size?

I agree that Teproc's vote was a little fishy. It was very "please forget I did something that got me in trouble, I'm moving my vote" of him.

[faust]

Vote: Ashersky

bold argumentative ashersky was scum ashersky with my sample size n = 1.

i don't like the way his wagon died entirely randomly.

These arbitrary "eh I guess I could vote for Gkrieg" votes seem fishy. Don't see why people are townreading teproc

Hm, I agree with O. Well, ash is generally bold argumentative, but the rest is fine.

[faust]

I actually think Joseph is scummy here. I could vote IDPTG as well.

Ok then.

Vote: Joseph

[Robz888]

Vote: Teproc

Why ?

Your scumread on DatSwan looks fake. Your are very comfortable for scum: willing to lynch all candidates except one (Joseph), without much of a reason why. You voted DatSwan for what he said about his seanbean vote when for all I can tell you voted him for the very same reasons, just not being explicit. oh, there's also the fact that you pushed one of the strongest potential PRs without any solid reasoning.

My vote on seanbean keeps being misrepresented as a vote for inactivity, when it is a vote for claiming immediately without hesitation, something that was actually discussed so you might think people would know about it.

Also, what's scummy is not the vote or the reason for it, but the awkwardness of the justification and the timing. Two people can post the exact same thing but one can be scummy and the other townie just because of context. But you know that.

You're right about your reasons for seanbean of course. I forgot because well there were holidays in between and I still don't have a lot of time here. I don't agree with your reasoning and I think voting for seanbean is bad, but you did give a reason.

I could vote Idplay, but it's not really a high-value target. If that guy is a PR, it's one that gives zero benefit to scum. On the other hand, as scum, we will get info from him and there's a good chance that he will die.

Hm, I've been forgetting to check the PR possibilities of various lynch options.

[O]

Vote: Ashersky

bold argumentative ashersky was scum ashersky with my sample size n = 1.

i don't like the way his wagon died entirely randomly.

These arbitrary "eh I guess I could vote for Gkrieg" votes seem fishy. Don't see why people are townreading teproc

What's your sample size?

I agree that Teproc's vote was a little fishy. It was very "please forget I did something that got me in trouble, I'm moving my vote" of him.

m100

[Robz888]

I actually think Joseph is scummy here. I could vote IDPTG as well.

Why is Joseph scummy? Joseph is probably my least favorite of the options mentioned recently.

[faust]

Vote: Teproc

Why ?

Your scumread on DatSwan looks fake. Your are very comfortable for scum: willing to lynch all candidates except one (Joseph), without much of a reason why. You voted DatSwan for what he said about his seanbean vote when for all I can tell you voted him for the very same reasons, just not being explicit. oh, there's also the fact that you pushed one of the strongest potential PRs without any solid reasoning.

My vote on seanbean keeps being misrepresented as a vote for inactivity, when it is a vote for claiming immediately without hesitation, something that was actually discussed so you might think people would know about it.

Also, what's scummy is not the vote or the reason for it, but the awkwardness of the justification and the timing. Two people can post the exact same thing but one can be scummy and the other townie just because of context. But you know that.

You're right about your reasons for seanbean of course. I forgot because well there were holidays in between and I still don't have a lot of time here. I don't agree with your reasoning and I think voting for seanbean is bad, but you did give a reason.

I could vote Idplay, but it's not really a high-value target. If that guy is a PR, it's one that gives zero benefit to scum. On the other hand, as scumtown, we will get info from him and there's a good chance that he will die.

EBWOP

[Robz888]

Well, Joseph being a potential roleblocker does make him a better lynch than IDPlay's potential weak visitor. I see.

[faust]

I actually think Joseph is scummy here. I could vote IDPTG as well.

Why is Joseph scummy? Joseph is probably my least favorite of the options mentioned recently.

Why?

Basically I did not like Joseph's latest vote and neither the way he's been clamoring for LAL and lynching seanbean without providing much substance himself.

[IDontPlayThisGame]

6. seanbean - Scummy. I believe new!town finds a way to post whereas new!scum might not know what to say and try to hide. However, the complete lack of other posts might invalidate that a bit.

this is also ridiculous reasoning, as Idplay manages to figure out himself in the second part of the quote, but somehow still puts a "scummy" label.

I would also be willing to lynch here I suppose.

Did I vote for sean? I find the behavior scummy, that's why I put that. I don't think he's scum because he hasn't posted and that muddies the behavior for me. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

[faust]

Well, Joseph being a potential roleblocker does make him a better lynch than IDPlay's potential weak visitor. I see.

Yes, seeing how this D1 went, I think going by potential Prs isn't half bad. Things would be different if I had some solid scumreads, but well Christmas threw me off the game and I don't expect to have time to get back in until the new year has started.

[faust]

6. seanbean - Scummy. I believe new!town finds a way to post whereas new!scum might not know what to say and try to hide. However, the complete lack of other posts might invalidate that a bit.

this is also ridiculous reasoning, as Idplay manages to figure out himself in the second part of the quote, but somehow still puts a "scummy" label.

I would also be willing to lynch here I suppose.

Did I vote for sean? I find the behavior scummy, that's why I put that. I don't think he's scum because he hasn't posted and that muddies the behavior for me. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

If you don't think he's scum, then why did you call him "scummy" in that reads list?

[O]

Well, Joseph being a potential roleblocker does make him a better lynch than IDPlay's potential weak visitor. I see.

Yes, seeing how this D1 went, I think going by potential Prs isn't half bad. Things would be different if I had some solid scumreads, but well Christmas threw me off the game and I don't expect to have time to get back in until the new year has started.

wat

[IDontPlayThisGame]

6. seanbean - Scummy. I believe new!town finds a way to post whereas new!scum might not know what to say and try to hide. However, the complete lack of other posts might invalidate that a bit.

this is also ridiculous reasoning, as Idplay manages to figure out himself in the second part of the quote, but somehow still puts a "scummy" label.

I would also be willing to lynch here I suppose.

Did I vote for sean? I find the behavior scummy, that's why I put that. I don't think he's scum because he hasn't posted and that muddies the behavior for me. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

If you don't think he's scum, then why did you call him "scummy" in that reads list?

My opinion changed by the time I finished writing and I didn't go back and change it. It was a post done while at a work training.

[Robz888]

Well, Joseph being a potential roleblocker does make him a better lynch than IDPlay's potential weak visitor. I see.

Yes, seeing how this D1 went, I think going by potential Prs isn't half bad. Things would be different if I had some solid scumreads, but well Christmas threw me off the game and I don't expect to have time to get back in until the new year has started.

Sure, that make sense to me.

Let's all keep in mind we need EIGHT to lynch, not the usual seven. And seven has been hard enough lately.

[IDontPlayThisGame]

If I am a PR, I'm going to target one of: gkrieg, mcmc, or faust unless people have a problem with that.

[gkrieg13]

I actually think Joseph is scummy here. I could vote IDPTG as well.

Why is Joseph scummy? Joseph is probably my least favorite of the options mentioned recently.

Why?

Basically I did not like Joseph's latest vote and neither the way he's been clamoring for LAL and lynching seanbean without providing much substance himself.

This but mainly the last part. Pushing for seanbeans lynch with not good reasoning.

[Robz888]

If I am a PR, I'm going to target one of: gkrieg, mcmc, or faust unless people have a problem with that.

We can discuss this but I think to be truly useful you might consider dropping your list to two. That's what the Hider did after his original plan went south in Mafia 100, right?

[ashersky]

vote: Robz

Good additional points from others supporting.  Thanks.

[Robz888]

Appalling lack of activity from about half the players, given we have two hours.

Vote: Joseph

I don't see what other viable choice we have.

[Robz888]

And I am the only person viewing the thread right now!

[Robz888]

So I've been checking the Who's Online thing, and it showed Idplay working on a post maybe half an hour ago. Now he's gone and there's no post.

Scum definitely self edits more than town. I definitely start posts only to scrap them... way more often when I am scum.

I know he's not a good lynch because of PR, but that's materially scummy to me.

[Joseph2302]

Appalling lack of activity from about half the players, given we have two hours.

Vote: Joseph

I don't see what other viable choice we have.

About an hour ago, you said I was a bad lynch target.
And I'm the only person online it seems.
So lynching me won't happen

[Joseph2302]

So I've been checking the Who's Online thing, and it showed Idplay working on a post maybe half an hour ago. Now he's gone and there's no post.

Scum definitely self edits more than town. I definitely start posts only to scrap them... way more often when I am scum.

I know he's not a good lynch because of PR, but that's materially scummy to me.

I agree that's kind of scummy. Vote: IDPTG (if I wasn't already)

[Robz888]

Appalling lack of activity from about half the players, given we have two hours.

Vote: Joseph

I don't see what other viable choice we have.

About an hour ago, you said I was a bad lynch target.
And I'm the only person online it seems.
So lynching me won't happen

The PR argument makes you more appealing. You're still not my favorite lynch. But you have the most votes.

[Robz888]

So I've been checking the Who's Online thing, and it showed Idplay working on a post maybe half an hour ago. Now he's gone and there's no post.

Scum definitely self edits more than town. I definitely start posts only to scrap them... way more often when I am scum.

I know he's not a good lynch because of PR, but that's materially scummy to me.

I agree that's kind of scummy. Vote: IDPTG (if I wasn't already)

Unfortunately I think you were already voting for him, which means IDplay isn't close to as viable as you, even if I join you. Would be great to hear from other players!

[mcmcsalot]

so people keep mentioning not lynching based off pr's but noone mentions gkriegs pr is still the most dangerous to town since he can insta kill our weak cop. also people keep moving between lal and joseph. i like ash's robz vote and i cant tell if he is actually early helpfull town!robz or took his time and then came in and was very productive after I threw some shade towards him and he was scum worried i would rally a lynch around him.

want to lynch gkrieg >>> galz/robz

[Eevee]

I prefer gkrieg over Joseph, but IDPTG over both. Not feeling Robz.

I'll be here until the deadline.

[Eevee]

Don't know if lynching Galz makes sense, it's like a random lynch scum can not participate in if he is scum.

[Galzria]

I'm here, but am already voting the one player who has had the best case made against them: Joseph.

I'll vote: Joseph, Teproc, Mcmc, Ash or IDPTG

Won't vote: Faust, Robz, Gkrieg, Eevee

Everybody else is meh.

[Eevee]

I'd vote for ash.

[Robz888]

so people keep mentioning not lynching based off pr's but noone mentions gkriegs pr is still the most dangerous to town since he can insta kill our weak cop.

I assume you meant the weak visitor, in which case this isn't really true, since it only works if we do indeed have a weak visitor and that's no guarantee.

Don't know if lynching Galz makes sense, it's like a random lynch scum can not participate in if he is scum.

I like last minute random Day 1 lynches but I doubt we'd get the numbers for this in which case it's just asking for No Lynch.

[Teproc]

I'm around. Will lynch:

gkrieg, DatSwan, sean

Won't lynch:

mcmc, ash

I guess everyone else is meh. Probably won't lynch Eevee, I liked his first post.

[Teproc]

And by "meh", I mean "will lynch if needed". I don't think PRs should be taken into account aside from letting people time to claim.

[Eevee]

I guess I would lynch Swan as well. He's been really flying under my radar for whatever reason.

[Eevee]

30 minutes

[Teproc]

Vote count is currently

Vote Count

Joseph (5): gkrieg, Galz, chairs, faust, Robz
gkrieg (2): mcmc, Teproc
IDPTG (2): Eevee, Joseph
Robz (1): ash
seanbean (1): DatSwan
ash (1): O

Not Voting (2): sean, IDPTG

I guess I'll take a Joseph lynch over nolynch. Though I'd much rather gkrieg or even IDPTG.

[Eevee]

vote: gkrieg

[Teproc]

Is it really just Eevee and me around ?

[Teproc]

Because if that's the case, even Joseph isn't doable.

[Archetype]

Vote Count 1.9

gkrieg13(3): mcmcsalot, Teproc, Eevee
Joseph202(5): gkrieg13, Galzria, chairs, Faust, Robz888
Robz888 (1): ashersky
IDPTG (1): Joseph2302
seanbean(1): DatSwan
ashersky(1): O

Not Voting (2): seanbean, IDontPlayThisGame

With 14 alive it takes 8 to lynch. Day 1 will end December 28th at 7:00 PM.

[Robz888]

I'm around, but I'm already on Joseph.

By the way I've checked Who's Online A LOT and IDPlay is frequently on, checking the thread, not posting. Exactly what a worried scum would be doing. He hasn't even cast a vote! I would totally move there but we don't have the numbers.

[Teproc]

I'm around, but I'm already on Joseph.

By the way I've checked Who's Online A LOT and IDPlay is frequently on, checking the thread, not posting. Exactly what a worried scum would be doing. He hasn't even cast a vote! I would totally move there but we don't have the numbers.

I get that, but sometimes it doesn't mean much. I was doing a fair bit of watching Who's Online at certain key points of Lost Mafia and it was often misleading.

[Teproc]

I do think it's a point against him. I would lynch him over Joseph as well, but we'd need a lot more people for that.

[Robz888]

This is why I was trying to corral everyone to vote hours ago, by the way. IDPlay showed up and has been around but didn't vote. Ash contributed a worthless vote on me and then disappeared. O cast an equally pointess ash voted and left. And where is DastSwan? This is a bit odd for him.

[Robz888]

I'm around, but I'm already on Joseph.

By the way I've checked Who's Online A LOT and IDPlay is frequently on, checking the thread, not posting. Exactly what a worried scum would be doing. He hasn't even cast a vote! I would totally move there but we don't have the numbers.

I get that, but sometimes it doesn't mean much. I was doing a fair bit of watching Who's Online at certain key points of Lost Mafia and it was often misleading.

Fair enough I guess.

[Robz888]

Teproc and Eevee, you really should move over to Joseph though, in case someone else random checks in last minute and we can lynch. Odds of four people doing that--what it would take to lynch gkrieg--are much less likely.

[Teproc]

That IDPTG didn't vote is actually really damming, at least if he doesn't show up in the next few minutes.

PPE: Sure, I guess nothing else has a ny shot now.

vote: Joseph

[Eevee]

You are right.

Vote: Joseph

[Eevee]

Would be great if we could lynch IDPTG somehow.

[Teproc]

I guess we have four votes there with Joseph already on him, so we'd need four more ? Seems extremely unlikely

[Robz888]

Yeah I mean I would move if the votes were there.

[Galzria]

Need one more

[Eevee]

This was a disappointing day. Let's do better tomorrow!

[mcmcsalot]

vote: joseph

[Teproc]

Got there... nice ?

[O]

Vote: Joseph

[Robz888]

Well that destroys the far-fetched scum!mcmc and scum!joseph theory I was beginning to formulate! Destroys it in a good way, obviously.

[Eevee]

This sucks for Joseph, as far as I can tell he got lynched for being the only available wagon because town screwed up.

Hope he's scum!

[O]

the vote counts as long as it's before he closes the thread right?

[Archetype]

Thread Locked

[Archetype]

Vote Count 1.FINAL

Joseph2302( 8 ): gkrieg13, Galzria, chairs, Faust, Robz888, Teproc, Eevee, mcmcsalot
Robz888 (1): ashersky
IDPTG (1): Joseph2302
seanbean(1): DatSwan
ashersky(1): O

Not Voting (2): seanbean, IDontPlayThisGame

With 14 alive it took 8 to lynch. Day 1 will end RIGHT NOW.

[Archetype]

Joseph2302 was thrown off the side of the map. He flutter jumped and threw eggs to gain greater height, but couldn't manage to grab the ledge. Maybe someday Yoshi will get a better recovery.


Joseph2302 has been lynched. He was Yoshi the Good Roleblocker.

Night 1 Start!
Day 2 will resume December 31st at 7:00 PM (deadline extended 1 day due to New Years)

[Archetype]

faust had already used his double jump and was preparing to vanish to gain some additional height but accidentally used his chain. Easy mistake to make, to be fair.

faust has been killed. He was Sheik the Vanilla Good


Day 2 Start!

Vote Count 2.0

Not Voting (12): mcmcsalot, ashersky, Galzria, DatSwan, Robz888, seanbean, Eevee, gkrieg13, Teproc, chairs, IDontPlayThisGame, O

With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch. Day 2 will end January 8th at 7:00 PM (deadline extended one day due to New Years).

Thread Unlocked

[IDontPlayThisGame]

So let me get this straight. The case on me at the end of the day was that I've been able to view the thread but not post?

[Robz888]

So let me get this straight. The case on me at the end of the day was that I've been able to view the thread but not post?

You were able to post, it said you were in the middle of writing a post, but that post did not come. And it would have been helpful to hear from you, or at least get a vote from you.

[IDontPlayThisGame]

So let me get this straight. The case on me at the end of the day was that I've been able to view the thread but not post?

You were able to post, it said you were in the middle of writing a post, but that post did not come. And it would have been helpful to hear from you, or at least get a vote from you.

When you mentioned that post, was your post talking about it very soon after?

[Robz888]

So let me get this straight. The case on me at the end of the day was that I've been able to view the thread but not post?

You were able to post, it said you were in the middle of writing a post, but that post did not come. And it would have been helpful to hear from you, or at least get a vote from you.

When you mentioned that post, was your post talking about it very soon after?

Don’t remember. Think it was maybe an hr later.

[IDontPlayThisGame]

So let me get this straight. The case on me at the end of the day was that I've been able to view the thread but not post?

You were able to post, it said you were in the middle of writing a post, but that post did not come. And it would have been helpful to hear from you, or at least get a vote from you.

When you mentioned that post, was your post talking about it very soon after?

About half an hour you said. So 16:40ish forum time. That's when I was learning CPR. Which means I wasn't on a break, so yeah, I wasn't able to finish writing it.

PPE 1: I went back and looked at it.

[Robz888]

Learning CPR huh? Let me guess, you didn’t kill anyone last night because you were too busy saving a basket of drowning puppies.

[IDontPlayThisGame]

Learning CPR huh? Let me guess, you didn’t kill anyone last night because you were too busy saving a basket of drowning puppies.

No, I (thankfully) haven't had to use it. I work with a population that has heavy drug use so we need to be prepared but it's not usually called for. An ambulance can usually get there in time.

[Archetype]

EFHW has replaced seanbean

[Teproc]

No, the case on you (IDPTG) is that you didn't vote and didn't come back before deadline. And that you weren't particularly townie.

Thanks EFHW !

[Teproc]

I think I need gkrieg to claim his night action (or lack thereof).

[Swowl]

I think I need gkrieg to claim his night action (or lack thereof).

first

Mewtwo is a pretty powerful role. You sure you want to ask him to verify if he is active or not? If he does, regardless of the results, it means he will probably die at night... So whatever you find out needs to be absolutely more valuable then the potential of his active role surviving.

[EFHW]

Hi everyone, still catching up. Happy New Year! Ball just dropped 

[IDontPlayThisGame]

No, the case on you (IDPTG) is that you didn't vote and didn't come back before deadline. And that you weren't particularly townie.

That's fair.

[O]

pretty much out till tomorrow nightish

[gkrieg13]

I think I need gkrieg to claim his night action (or lack thereof).

I refuse to do so.

[chairs]

Hey, EFHW!

Hope you're a bit more active than sean <3.

[Teproc]

I think I need gkrieg to claim his night action (or lack thereof).

I refuse to do so.

I get that, so I'll put it another way: did you target me last night ?

[Teproc]

As your first target I mean.

[mcmcsalot]

So the Joseph lynch was awful, so clearly a town wagon based on the way the day went. Really sucks we had to sit throug a day of andrew and seanbean doing nothing which allowed scum to hang back and do nothing forcing us to lynx joseph. Glad to have eevee and efhw though.

I am honestly not sure if the Joseph lynch was superior to a no-lynch based on numbers but I fotbto the thread so late, I saw we needed one more and figured we can always use our one no-lynch at a later date.

[mcmcsalot]

Gkrieg, galz, and robz are easily the scummiest of members on Joseph’s wagon though honestly I think scum would have been fine lynching no one and it’s very likely one just hung off wagon.

[Eevee]

Didn’t feel great lynching my biggest town read. Let’s do better today.

Interested to hear what EFHW’s fresh pair of eyes thinks of the game.

[gkrieg13]

I think I need gkrieg to claim his night action (or lack thereof).

I refuse to do so.

I get that, so I'll put it another way: did you target me last night ?

vote: Teproc. Why would I ever claim my first target???  This is such a scummy question.

[EFHW]

Didn’t feel great lynching my biggest town read. Let’s do better today.

Interested to hear what EFHW’s fresh pair of eyes thinks of the game.

I'm caught up in reading and have a few nascent theories that need more developing before being shared. I can say I have townreads on ashersky and mcmc.

I don't like playing by "Who's Online" and accept IDPTG's explanation of his apparent lurking.

faust is a good player, so I don't celebrate his death but I'm glad the O-faust feud is over for now.

[Teproc]

I think I need gkrieg to claim his night action (or lack thereof).

I refuse to do so.

I get that, so I'll put it another way: did you target me last night ?

vote: Teproc. Why would I ever claim my first target???  This is such a scummy question.

I'm not asking you to claim your first target, I'm asking you to claim if it was me. Obviously I'm claiming aftr this.

[EFHW]

I think I need gkrieg to claim his night action (or lack thereof).

I refuse to do so.

I get that, so I'll put it another way: did you target me last night ?

vote: Teproc. Why would I ever claim my first target???  This is such a scummy question.

Agree. If the first target is evil, then they know their Oracle answer was inverted, which negates that part of his power.

Teproc - What value did you see in gkrieg disclosing this? Are you saying you tried to protect faust? My next question was going to be why didn't you, so that would fit.

[EFHW]

You might not want to answer that, I suppose.

[EFHW]

so people keep mentioning not lynching based off pr's but noone mentions gkriegs pr is still the most dangerous to town since he can insta kill our weak cop.

I assume you meant the weak visitor, in which case this isn't really true, since it only works if we do indeed have a weak visitor and that's no guarantee.

How does gkrieg insta-kill the weak visitor? It doesn't look like he could kill anyone directly.

[EFHW]

so people keep mentioning not lynching based off pr's but noone mentions gkriegs pr is still the most dangerous to town since he can insta kill our weak cop.

I assume you meant the weak visitor, in which case this isn't really true, since it only works if we do indeed have a weak visitor and that's no guarantee.

How does gkrieg insta-kill the weak visitor? It doesn't look like he could kill anyone directly.

Maybe you already know that gkrieg is scum?

[EFHW]

Short-lived town read. vote: mcmc

[Teproc]

I took mcmc to mean "dangerous" as in "dangerous if scum got them".

[gkrieg13]

I think I need gkrieg to claim his night action (or lack thereof).

I refuse to do so.

I get that, so I'll put it another way: did you target me last night ?

vote: Teproc. Why would I ever claim my first target???  This is such a scummy question.

Agree. If the first target is evil, then they know their Oracle answer was inverted, which negates that part of his power.

Teproc - What value did you see in gkrieg disclosing this? Are you saying you tried to protect faust? My next question was going to be why didn't you, so that would fit.

Teproc, I understand you wanting to know if you were redirected, but you realize that it would also tell scum that their oracle answer is true or false, which completely takes away from my role.

[Teproc]

I do but I kinda think if you redirected me then you're probably scum, and if you didn't it doesn't matter, so...

[IDontPlayThisGame]

so people keep mentioning not lynching based off pr's but noone mentions gkriegs pr is still the most dangerous to town since he can insta kill our weak cop.

I assume you meant the weak visitor, in which case this isn't really true, since it only works if we do indeed have a weak visitor and that's no guarantee.

How does gkrieg insta-kill the weak visitor? It doesn't look like he could kill anyone directly.

A Weak Visitor dies if they target scum. Scum!gkrieg ensures that happens. So no, it's not directly killing, but killing nonetheless.

[IDontPlayThisGame]

That said, I doubt it happens because I don't see why scum would risk wasting a shot on a minor PR.

[ashersky]

Hi.  Happy new year.  Expect low activity this week.

[mcmcsalot]

so people keep mentioning not lynching based off pr's but noone mentions gkriegs pr is still the most dangerous to town since he can insta kill our weak cop.

I assume you meant the weak visitor, in which case this isn't really true, since it only works if we do indeed have a weak visitor and that's no guarantee.

How does gkrieg insta-kill the weak visitor? It doesn't look like he could kill anyone directly.

Gkrieg targets weak visitor, gkrieg redirects any action weak visitor takes and makes them target scum. Weak visitor dies and we don’t know why. This is in contrast to galz(fox) who needs gkrieg to target him in order to redirect the weak visitor onto scum.

[mcmcsalot]

Short-lived town read. vote: mcmc

Curious what caused said town read to go away? My analyzing of ways all the pr’s could negatively effect other prs, my high early activity which dropped off as the day went on and no one supported my gkrieg or robz votes and were content to wait for a Joseph default or no-lynch? Or was it my last minute vote for Joseph to prevent I lunch which puts me in unnecessary heat today (many people weren’t around, scum!mcmc could easily not posted). Just curious

[mcmcsalot]

Or is it because the first and second votes on said town wagon were two of the people I consistently said were scummy?

[mcmcsalot]

Oh and in the words of the ufc’s Bruce Buffer aaaaaaaand stiiiiiiil vote: gkrieg

[IDontPlayThisGame]

Not a fan of gkrieg claiming just yet.

[EFHW]

so people keep mentioning not lynching based off pr's but noone mentions gkriegs pr is still the most dangerous to town since he can insta kill our weak cop.

I assume you meant the weak visitor, in which case this isn't really true, since it only works if we do indeed have a weak visitor and that's no guarantee.

How does gkrieg insta-kill the weak visitor? It doesn't look like he could kill anyone directly.

A Weak Visitor dies if they target scum. Scum!gkrieg ensures that happens. So no, it's not directly killing, but killing nonetheless.

Right, but he didn't say scum!gkrieg, just gkrieg's power is dangerous to town. I'll look at the context some more when I'm at a computer.

[EFHW]

so people keep mentioning not lynching based off pr's but noone mentions gkriegs pr is still the most dangerous to town since he can insta kill our weak cop.

I assume you meant the weak visitor, in which case this isn't really true, since it only works if we do indeed have a weak visitor and that's no guarantee.

How does gkrieg insta-kill the weak visitor? It doesn't look like he could kill anyone directly.

Gkrieg targets weak visitor, gkrieg redirects any action weak visitor takes and makes them target scum. Weak visitor dies and we don’t know why. This is in contrast to galz(fox) who needs gkrieg to target him in order to redirect the weak visitor onto scum.

Ok, I did not think of that. I can read the post as not scummy now. unvote

[EFHW]

Short-lived town read. vote: mcmc

Curious what caused said town read to go away? My analyzing of ways all the pr’s could negatively effect other prs, my high early activity which dropped off as the day went on and no one supported my gkrieg or robz votes and were content to wait for a Joseph default or no-lynch? Or was it my last minute vote for Joseph to prevent I lunch which puts me in unnecessary heat today (many people weren’t around, scum!mcmc could easily not posted). Just curious

Why so sarcastic? I thought you had scumslipped.

[Teproc]

K, whatever, I've said enought for anyone to figure it out anyway.

I'm a JOAT and I used my doctor shot to protect faust last night. FOur things (assuming flavor claims were truthful) could explain faust's death from there

1) DatSwan using Lightning Rod. Going to go ahead and rule out town!Swan doing this. Scum!Swan might, but it wouldn't be too hard to figure out from other potential PRs... so it doesn't seem like a great scum play either. Feel free to say it if you have a strong reason to believe this happened.

2) Andrew (now EFHW, One-Shot Vigilante that only works on Vanilla) shooting faust. There are a number of reasons why this is a very unlikely play from either alignment.

3) Universal Backup turned Roleblocker O targeting me. O did suspect me day 1, but if I'm scum I'm either
a) Vanilla and probably not doing the kill
b) JOAT using Ascetic

So I don't think town!O roleblocks me. Scum!O might, to ensure that the faust kill goes through.

And then there's gkrieg. I can't really see a reason for town!gkrieg to target me because again, it's either
a) I'm vanilla not doing the kill because active players with a decent amount of suspicion don't do the kill
b) I'm a JOAT and I'm using Ascetic.

scum!gkrieg totally does have incentive to divert me, because it ensures the faust kill AND it disrupts my tracking if I choose to do that, might even get some confusion later on.

So I think our lynchpool today should be {gkrieg, O}. I guess that'd be {gkrieg, O, Teproc} for everyone else. gkrieg refusing to answer my second question indicates to me that he did target me. Town!gkrieg who's vanilla doesn't mind claiming he didn''t target me, and neither does town!gkrieg who targeted someone else. And again, I don't see why town!gkrieg targets me, so...

vote: gkrieg

PPE: 3

[EFHW]

I don't think his not answering confirms that he targeted you.

[IDontPlayThisGame]

1 doesn't work. Lightning Rod redirects the NK too.

[ashersky]

vote: o

He def targets Tep a fair amount of the time.

[Eevee]

I didn’t shoot faust.

[gkrieg13]

K, whatever, I've said enought for anyone to figure it out anyway.

I'm a JOAT and I used my doctor shot to protect faust last night. FOur things (assuming flavor claims were truthful) could explain faust's death from there

1) DatSwan using Lightning Rod. Going to go ahead and rule out town!Swan doing this. Scum!Swan might, but it wouldn't be too hard to figure out from other potential PRs... so it doesn't seem like a great scum play either. Feel free to say it if you have a strong reason to believe this happened.

2) Andrew (now EFHW, One-Shot Vigilante that only works on Vanilla) shooting faust. There are a number of reasons why this is a very unlikely play from either alignment.

3) Universal Backup turned Roleblocker O targeting me. O did suspect me day 1, but if I'm scum I'm either
a) Vanilla and probably not doing the kill
b) JOAT using Ascetic

So I don't think town!O roleblocks me. Scum!O might, to ensure that the faust kill goes through.

And then there's gkrieg. I can't really see a reason for town!gkrieg to target me because again, it's either
a) I'm vanilla not doing the kill because active players with a decent amount of suspicion don't do the kill
b) I'm a JOAT and I'm using Ascetic.

scum!gkrieg totally does have incentive to divert me, because it ensures the faust kill AND it disrupts my tracking if I choose to do that, might even get some confusion later on.

So I think our lynchpool today should be {gkrieg, O}. I guess that'd be {gkrieg, O, Teproc} for everyone else. gkrieg refusing to answer my second question indicates to me that he did target me. Town!gkrieg who's vanilla doesn't mind claiming he didn''t target me, and neither does town!gkrieg who targeted someone else. And again, I don't see why town!gkrieg targets me, so...

vote: gkrieg

PPE: 3

Your analysis is wrong. If I’m vanilla, I want scum to be scared of my PR and think there is a possibility that their oracle is flipped. Also you aren’t a town read for me, so why would I claim if I targeted you?

I did not target you last night.

[Robz888]

K, whatever, I've said enought for anyone to figure it out anyway.

I'm a JOAT and I used my doctor shot to protect faust last night. FOur things (assuming flavor claims were truthful) could explain faust's death from there

1) DatSwan using Lightning Rod. Going to go ahead and rule out town!Swan doing this. Scum!Swan might, but it wouldn't be too hard to figure out from other potential PRs... so it doesn't seem like a great scum play either. Feel free to say it if you have a strong reason to believe this happened.

2) Andrew (now EFHW, One-Shot Vigilante that only works on Vanilla) shooting faust. There are a number of reasons why this is a very unlikely play from either alignment.

3) Universal Backup turned Roleblocker O targeting me. O did suspect me day 1, but if I'm scum I'm either
a) Vanilla and probably not doing the kill
b) JOAT using Ascetic

So I don't think town!O roleblocks me. Scum!O might, to ensure that the faust kill goes through.

And then there's gkrieg. I can't really see a reason for town!gkrieg to target me because again, it's either
a) I'm vanilla not doing the kill because active players with a decent amount of suspicion don't do the kill
b) I'm a JOAT and I'm using Ascetic.

scum!gkrieg totally does have incentive to divert me, because it ensures the faust kill AND it disrupts my tracking if I choose to do that, might even get some confusion later on.

So I think our lynchpool today should be {gkrieg, O}. I guess that'd be {gkrieg, O, Teproc} for everyone else. gkrieg refusing to answer my second question indicates to me that he did target me. Town!gkrieg who's vanilla doesn't mind claiming he didn''t target me, and neither does town!gkrieg who targeted someone else. And again, I don't see why town!gkrieg targets me, so...

vote: gkrieg

PPE: 3

You being roleblocked by O seems like a simpler explanation to me. And I could very well see town!O (calamitously) deciding to block you last night. I don't know why you'd be particularly unlikely to perform the kill.

O, did you block Teproc?

[Teproc]

K, whatever, I've said enought for anyone to figure it out anyway.

I'm a JOAT and I used my doctor shot to protect faust last night. FOur things (assuming flavor claims were truthful) could explain faust's death from there

1) DatSwan using Lightning Rod. Going to go ahead and rule out town!Swan doing this. Scum!Swan might, but it wouldn't be too hard to figure out from other potential PRs... so it doesn't seem like a great scum play either. Feel free to say it if you have a strong reason to believe this happened.

2) Andrew (now EFHW, One-Shot Vigilante that only works on Vanilla) shooting faust. There are a number of reasons why this is a very unlikely play from either alignment.

3) Universal Backup turned Roleblocker O targeting me. O did suspect me day 1, but if I'm scum I'm either
a) Vanilla and probably not doing the kill
b) JOAT using Ascetic

So I don't think town!O roleblocks me. Scum!O might, to ensure that the faust kill goes through.

And then there's gkrieg. I can't really see a reason for town!gkrieg to target me because again, it's either
a) I'm vanilla not doing the kill because active players with a decent amount of suspicion don't do the kill
b) I'm a JOAT and I'm using Ascetic.

scum!gkrieg totally does have incentive to divert me, because it ensures the faust kill AND it disrupts my tracking if I choose to do that, might even get some confusion later on.

So I think our lynchpool today should be {gkrieg, O}. I guess that'd be {gkrieg, O, Teproc} for everyone else. gkrieg refusing to answer my second question indicates to me that he did target me. Town!gkrieg who's vanilla doesn't mind claiming he didn''t target me, and neither does town!gkrieg who targeted someone else. And again, I don't see why town!gkrieg targets me, so...

vote: gkrieg

PPE: 3

Your analysis is wrong. If I’m vanilla, I want scum to be scared of my PR and think there is a possibility that their oracle is flipped. Also you aren’t a town read for me, so why would I claim if I targeted you?

I did not target you last night.

My first question didn't work for vanilla!you, but I then asked you to specifically claim whether or not you targeted me. As you're doing it right now, you see how that's not a problem to answer, right ?

@Robz Active players don't typically do NKs, unless strongman/ninja is involved, don't you agree ? I'm a somewhat likely investigation target in general, or at least I assume I am when scum. Also, the possibility that I'd have ascetic at my disposal makes roleblocking me pretty bad.

I guess Andrew is now Eevee, not EFHW, got confused there. And IDPTG is right about Lightning Rod, I think I remember playing with a version that didn't affect kills but this one does.

gkrieg claiming not to have targeted me now doesn't change my mind. In fact, that gkrieg chose to answer when the parameters of the question really didn't change, why ?

[Teproc]

I mean, yeah, maybe O will come in and say he's a roleblocker and he targeted me and maybe he's town and just did a dumb thing and I outed him and me for nothing. But also gkrieg is just scummy, so we can lynch him even if that happens.

[Robz888]

I mean, yeah, maybe O will come in and say he's a roleblocker and he targeted me and maybe he's town and just did a dumb thing and I outed him and me for nothing. But also gkrieg is just scummy, so we can lynch him even if that happens.

Well now you're arguing for lynching gkrieg, even if O theoretically disproves the thing causing you to suspect him? That's kind of scummy on its own.

[Robz888]

In the meantime, I have a case to make on mcmc.

So, mcmc neighborized me on Day 1, we had a couple IRL days of chatting. To say that he was acting suspiciously in this thread would be an understatement. The big thing is that he continuously goaded me to reveal to him whether I actually had 1-shot Deathproof, something I'm sure scum would really like to know.

I said as much in our thread, and then he started gradually claiming to have a stronger and stronger scum read on me, which read to me as a defensive move.

Now he's still listing me in his top suspects, but he's not voting for me. I think if town!mcmc had such a strong scum read on me, he would be voting for me. And if he was town suspecting I might be scum but not convinced enough to vote, I would have expected him to re-neighborize me today. He did not.

I agree that he's been acting townie-seeming in the main thread, but I don't know that scum!mcmc is incapable of doing that. He's not played a game in a while, this is his only game, he's refreshed, he's in top shape to try to pull this off.

Vote: mcmcsalot

[Teproc]

I suspected gkrieg before. I was hoping this would convince other people.

I really don't expect town!O to have roleblocked me anyway, but we'll see.

[EFHW]

Mcmc, how would you describe the course of your chats with Robz?

[EFHW]

Scum!Teproc could be saying he was roleblocked to cover for not having protected faust.

[EFHW]

I guess I do have to agree with Teproc that the  lynchpool for today needs to be {gkrieg, O, Teproc}, unless someone can think of another way faust could have died. Maybe add in Eevee  if scum used his one vig shot to double kill faust. Doubtful but theoretically possible.

[Archetype]

Vote Count 2.1

Teproc (1): gkrieg13
gkrieg(2): mcmcsalot, Teproc
O (1): ashersky
mcmcsalot (1): Robz888

Not Voting (7): Galzria, DatSwan, O, Eevee, chairs, IDontPlayThisGame, EFHW

With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch. Day 2 will end January 8th at 7:00 PM.

[Swowl]

I am still out of town until tomorrow. But to summarize:
1) I did not use lighning rod last night
2) I do not think that GK usining a redirect on Teproc makes him skummy, whether or not that happened.
3) The Teproc I know is different then the Teproc I am playing with... and I have only played with Town!Teproc

Vote:Teproc

[mcmcsalot]

Mcmc, how would you describe the course of your chats with Robz?

I was enthusiastic to discuss reads. I did analyze his role and discuss the idea that because the setup allows for one no lynch (if 3 scum one no lynch keeps the same number of number of potential mislynches) it might be a good idea for town to burn robz potential 1-shot death proof. If town it’s a Good Power, if scum it’s an insanely strong Power that a fact. Add in what I said about no lynches, burning a town!robz 1sdp doesn’t change the number of potential mislynches we can do. That paranoid him reasonably so but as far as my read thoughts, he felt forced and overly concerned about my alignment. It came across to me as “I have to be wary of your alignment to seem like I don’t know you are town”. I am fully aware that could be because we have both taken some games off but truly it felt forced. That led to my scum read on him growing as the day went on.

[chairs]

Kinda leaning towards vote: robz here tbh.

[gkrieg13]

K, whatever, I've said enought for anyone to figure it out anyway.

I'm a JOAT and I used my doctor shot to protect faust last night. FOur things (assuming flavor claims were truthful) could explain faust's death from there

1) DatSwan using Lightning Rod. Going to go ahead and rule out town!Swan doing this. Scum!Swan might, but it wouldn't be too hard to figure out from other potential PRs... so it doesn't seem like a great scum play either. Feel free to say it if you have a strong reason to believe this happened.

2) Andrew (now EFHW, One-Shot Vigilante that only works on Vanilla) shooting faust. There are a number of reasons why this is a very unlikely play from either alignment.

3) Universal Backup turned Roleblocker O targeting me. O did suspect me day 1, but if I'm scum I'm either
a) Vanilla and probably not doing the kill
b) JOAT using Ascetic

So I don't think town!O roleblocks me. Scum!O might, to ensure that the faust kill goes through.

And then there's gkrieg. I can't really see a reason for town!gkrieg to target me because again, it's either
a) I'm vanilla not doing the kill because active players with a decent amount of suspicion don't do the kill
b) I'm a JOAT and I'm using Ascetic.

scum!gkrieg totally does have incentive to divert me, because it ensures the faust kill AND it disrupts my tracking if I choose to do that, might even get some confusion later on.

So I think our lynchpool today should be {gkrieg, O}. I guess that'd be {gkrieg, O, Teproc} for everyone else. gkrieg refusing to answer my second question indicates to me that he did target me. Town!gkrieg who's vanilla doesn't mind claiming he didn''t target me, and neither does town!gkrieg who targeted someone else. And again, I don't see why town!gkrieg targets me, so...

vote: gkrieg

PPE: 3

Your analysis is wrong. If I’m vanilla, I want scum to be scared of my PR and think there is a possibility that their oracle is flipped. Also you aren’t a town read for me, so why would I claim if I targeted you?

I did not target you last night.

My first question didn't work for vanilla!you, but I then asked you to specifically claim whether or not you targeted me. As you're doing it right now, you see how that's not a problem to answer, right ?

@Robz Active players don't typically do NKs, unless strongman/ninja is involved, don't you agree ? I'm a somewhat likely investigation target in general, or at least I assume I am when scum. Also, the possibility that I'd have ascetic at my disposal makes roleblocking me pretty bad.

I guess Andrew is now Eevee, not EFHW, got confused there. And IDPTG is right about Lightning Rod, I think I remember playing with a version that didn't affect kills but this one does.

gkrieg claiming not to have targeted me now doesn't change my mind. In fact, that gkrieg chose to answer when the parameters of the question really didn't change, why ?

I didn’t want to claim to have not targeted you because I had forgotten your role. Also, I realized that claiming to not have targeted you doesn’t tell mafia if their oracle answer is inverted or not. I hadn’t thought it through all the way as I’m still V/LA.

[gkrieg13]

I mean, yeah, maybe O will come in and say he's a roleblocker and he targeted me and maybe he's town and just did a dumb thing and I outed him and me for nothing. But also gkrieg is just scummy, so we can lynch him even if that happens.

How have I been scummy?  Is it still because of the ash thing?

[Robz888]

Mcmc, how would you describe the course of your chats with Robz?

I was enthusiastic to discuss reads. I did analyze his role and discuss the idea that because the setup allows for one no lynch (if 3 scum one no lynch keeps the same number of number of potential mislynches) it might be a good idea for town to burn robz potential 1-shot death proof. If town it’s a Good Power, if scum it’s an insanely strong Power that a fact. Add in what I said about no lynches, burning a town!robz 1sdp doesn’t change the number of potential mislynches we can do. That paranoid him reasonably so but as far as my read thoughts, he felt forced and overly concerned about my alignment. It came across to me as “I have to be wary of your alignment to seem like I don’t know you are town”. I am fully aware that could be because we have both taken some games off but truly it felt forced. That led to my scum read on him growing as the day went on.

There's no such thing as being "overly concerned" about your alignment, that's the entire game. You were overly concerned about whether I was scum-reading you, though. Transparently so. You said something at one point (I'm paraphrasing) about being surprised that I sounded like I might think you were scum. You were nervous and tying to ferret out information from me the entire thread... not information about my alignment, but information about what whether I was onto you.

[mcmcsalot]

I mean, yeah, maybe O will come in and say he's a roleblocker and he targeted me and maybe he's town and just did a dumb thing and I outed him and me for nothing. But also gkrieg is just scummy, so we can lynch him even if that happens.

How have I been scummy?  Is it still because of the ash thing?

That’s early d1 stuff, however your pushing of the Joseph wagon which is now a confirmed town makes your late day 1 play scummy.

Time to reread some things.

[mcmcsalot]

Scum!Teproc could be saying he was roleblocked to cover for not having protected faust.

So I’ve been mulling this idea over as well and my thoughts have rested on this. Teproc was not under much suspicion yesterday, many people finding him townie, scum!teproc gains from this a potential mislynch of town!gkrieg who could be inactive or even worse gkrieg could have taken an action that is provable (redirecting me for example). Scum!teproc would not be under any suspicion for not doctoring Faust because without him bringing this up likely no one would push for him to reveal if he is even active.

Scum!gkrieg has strong insentive to redirect town!teproc onto a vanilla scum who took no action last night. If teproc doctors it protect the vanilla scum from a potential vig shot and if he is tracking someone he sees nothing. The risk there is if town!teproc tracked someone who took an action and teproc became aware of that, gkrieg would be completely caught. I think here it’s just a case of risk assessment and it was more likely teproc doctored then tracked, and it’s unlikely he becomes aware his track target took an action.

The presence of O throws a wrench into all of this as it increases the chance both scum!teproc and scum!gkrieg do the things described above. For scum!teproc, if we lynch gkrieg who flips town he can tomorrow say well o must have blocked me. For scum!gkrieg similarly when town!teprocs action fails he can say it wasn’t me must have been O. On a balance note, I doubt O is both scum and active. A scum UB varies wildly in how much it can help or hurt scum (gaining a vig adds kill power, gaining a death proof adds literal lynch numbers vs. gaining a weak cop or tracker who need to be lying about results and potentially clearing townies)

All that being said combined with my scum read of gkrieg yesterday, combined with him being a primary proponent of the awful Joseph lynch, combined with robz who is a scum read of mine voting gkrieg only briefly yesterday (because of my great ability to catch scum!gkrieg in his words) and then ditching that vote to move to Joseph I am pretty happy leaving my vote on gkrieg.

[EFHW]

Mcmc, how would you describe the course of your chats with Robz?

I was enthusiastic to discuss reads. I did analyze his role and discuss the idea that because the setup allows for one no lynch (if 3 scum one no lynch keeps the same number of number of potential mislynches) it might be a good idea for town to burn robz potential 1-shot death proof. If town it’s a Good Power, if scum it’s an insanely strong Power that a fact. Add in what I said about no lynches, burning a town!robz 1sdp doesn’t change the number of potential mislynches we can do. That paranoid him reasonably so but as far as my read thoughts, he felt forced and overly concerned about my alignment. It came across to me as “I have to be wary of your alignment to seem like I don’t know you are town”. I am fully aware that could be because we have both taken some games off but truly it felt forced. That led to my scum read on him growing as the day went on.

Why do you want to burn his deathproof? He will just get nk'd that night if he's town.  Is it to prevent possible scum!him from having it?

I think I see. You were trying to get town!Robz to sacrifice his power -- IF he has it --  for the cause and to prove he wasn't scum by agreeing to the plan. I can see why he was irked. What have you concluded from it?

What was there in what you said that he would need to know your alignment? Your alignment isn't really relevant to the value of the plan for town.

Why did you pick Robz? It was N0, before any claims. His being your brother creates complications for the rest of us in interpreting what the two of you report about the conversation.

Ppe: Long post from mcmc I didn't read yet.

[EFHW]

Robz, can you while only paraphrasing demonstrate to us what you mean by continuously goading? How many times, how directly?

I also don't see why scum!mcmc would be so intensely interested in your deathproof,  or so blatant in probing about it.

[Robz888]

All that being said combined with my scum read of gkrieg yesterday, combined with him being a primary proponent of the awful Joseph lynch, combined with robz who is a scum read of mine voting gkrieg only briefly yesterday (because of my great ability to catch scum!gkrieg in his words) and then ditching that vote to move to Joseph I am pretty happy leaving my vote on gkrieg.

You also ditched gkrieg to move to Joseph, because that's what had to happen to get a lynch.

Robz, can you while only paraphrasing demonstrate to us what you mean by continuously goading? How many times, how directly?

I also don't see why scum!mcmc would be so intensely interested in your deathproof,  or so blatant in probing about it.

This is not really something I feel like doing, and is also a recipe for getting in to trouble. Not sure what the rules here are, I'd rather just make the entire thread publicly available, is that an option Arch?

Scum mcmc wants to know if I'm going to actually die if they take a shot/lynch me, I think that's pretty useful info. I'm not sure if "blatant" is the word I would use, it was more like he couldn't help himself. He just kept saying "if" you are Deathproof we should do this, you should think this, "if" you are Deathproof, in such rapid succession that it was almost like whatever I would say in response would give it away.

[Eevee]

I'm behind a page, but a thought just occured to me: I'm pretty suspicious of people who are pushing for lynches based on (potential) roles instead of reads.

[Teproc]

I'm behind a page, but a thought just occured to me: I'm pretty suspicious of people who are pushing for lynches based on (potential) roles instead of reads.

I'm pushing gkrieg for both reasons. And to answer him: no it's not about your ash defense gkrieg, it's about you generally being scummy in ways I can't really define. Yes, that is not helpful, but there you are.

I'm unsure about the mcmc v Robz thing. mcmc neighborizing Robz is what he'd do as either alignment I believe. I tend to think rolefishing is not something scum actually does all that much, but I do buy that town:Robz would be freaked out by it.

[O]

I blocked Teproc. Blocking all non-killing actions seemed like the most anti-town ability in the game, and I didn't think redirector would have a high usage or success rate D1.

This is obviously a shitty outcome, assuming Teproc is telling the truth... pretty low odds that I block a successful doctor shot D1...

[O]

I think Teproc is telling the truth? Not 100% though. He could have had a tracker shot blocked

[Eevee]

On the topic of Robz and mcmc, my opinion has reversed from yesterday. Robz is looking quite towny to me, mcmc increasingly more scummy (but these reads are tied to each other somewhat - getting to see the QT might change things).

[O]

I'm missing a part while rereading -- did Robz!MCMC have conversations about the game, post setup + roles, IRL?. That's pretty bad form.

Not trying to accuse anything underhanded here -- I get the temptation. But it always leads to shitty outside read influences that should not be in the game

[O]

Ah --- MCMC is neighborizer

[mcmcsalot]

I would be happy to make the qt public. My burning of robz 1-short dp as could be seen in the qt is 199% not based primarily on the fact that 1-shot dp is strong it has to do with the way the numbers and lynches work out.

With 14 players 11 town, 3 mafia assuming 1 mislynch and  1 nk.
D1 11/3, D2 9/3, D3 7/3, D4 5/3, a mislynch on D4 loses the game. 3 mislynches allowed.

My analysis began with what happens if we no lynch.
D1 11/3, D2 10/3, D3 8/3, D4, 6/3, D5 4/3, a mislynch in D5 loses the game. Still 3 mislynches allowed.

Then when analyzing everyone’s powers I realized burning robz 1-shot dp has the same effect as a no-lynch.

So if active scum!robz poses an EXTREME threat to town that is undeniable, if town robz is quite helpful but not as dangerous, it’s just a number game, adding an additional lynch required to end scum is much worse for town than one blocked night kill is good for town.

So In my mind the knowledge scum 1-shot deathproof robz does not exist may be worth it to town in exchange for burning a town 1-shot deathproof robz dp. Add in the fact that we had potential doctors and redirector and a potential cop and tracker an additional night of night actions could prove vastly more useful than a day of low activity and a necessity lynch of Joseph due to said low activity.

Had robz offered himself we would still have a town roleblocker in Joseph, we would know we are not dealing with a death proof scum, and we might still have Faust who was very active.

Now on top of all of that, never did I think oh because robz isn’t willing to burn his 1-shot dp which he might not even have he must be scum. Never, I understood his concern and I believe that would come across in our qt as well.

[mcmcsalot]

So on to the scum read I have in robz, it was not stronger then my read on gkrieg yesterday but it grew as the day went on. I agree that the game is about “being concerned about alignments” robz game off to me in the qt as overly hemming and hawing about man I’m just not sure I can trust you because you might be scum, I agree with what your saying but man you could just be scum trying to put me. To me I felt like I am aware you can’t trust me, I’m aware you have to take things I’m saying with a grain of salt, why do you feel the need to keep reminding me you can’t trust me. Overcompensating and wanting to make me absolutely sure he doesn’t know my alignment is how it came across.

[mcmcsalot]

Now that O has confirmed blocking teproc I don’t think this lets gkrieg off the hook for his scummines yesterday and his pushing of the Joseph wagon, but I think we should be back to not limiting the lynch pool to teproc/gkrieg/O and look into robz and galzria as well who alongside gkrieg created the Joseph wagon and has been very much less active then normal.

[mcmcsalot]

I blocked Teproc. Blocking all non-killing actions seemed like the most anti-town ability in the game, and I didn't think redirector would have a high usage or success rate D1.

This is obviously a shitty outcome, assuming Teproc is telling the truth... pretty low odds that I block a successful doctor shot D1...

I’m confused by your explanation of why you blocked teproc. Are you aware he has a 1shot doc, one shot track, and one shot ascetic. Also are you aware

where does the joat’s 1-Shot ascetic go in the resolution chain and is it targetable on someone or only self targeted?

It occurs in the Blocking phase of the action resolution (so after Sidekick but before Redirector). It is not a targeted action - the user simply 'becomes' Ascetic for that night a la Falco's ability.

Meaning teproc can doctor someone, track them, or make himself immune to non killing actions. So why again did you block him?

[IDontPlayThisGame]

Well. I doubt mcmc and Robz are both scum. I don't really see how this benefits them if they are.

[O]

I blocked Teproc. Blocking all non-killing actions seemed like the most anti-town ability in the game, and I didn't think redirector would have a high usage or success rate D1.

This is obviously a shitty outcome, assuming Teproc is telling the truth... pretty low odds that I block a successful doctor shot D1...

I’m confused by your explanation of why you blocked teproc. Are you aware he has a 1shot doc, one shot track, and one shot ascetic. Also are you aware

where does the joat’s 1-Shot ascetic go in the resolution chain and is it targetable on someone or only self targeted?

It occurs in the Blocking phase of the action resolution (so after Sidekick but before Redirector). It is not a targeted action - the user simply 'becomes' Ascetic for that night a la Falco's ability.

Meaning teproc can doctor someone, track them, or make himself immune to non killing actions. So why again did you block him?

it seems i misread ascetic's ability

[O]

1-shot Ascetic (Block all non-killing actions)

i took this literally. did not read your clarification question

[EFHW]

I blocked Teproc. Blocking all non-killing actions seemed like the most anti-town ability in the game, and I didn't think redirector would have a high usage or success rate D1.

This is obviously a shitty outcome, assuming Teproc is telling the truth... pretty low odds that I block a successful doctor shot D1...

It's not really low odds. He was the only one with a potential doctor power. Did you have a scum read on him for some reason?

[Archetype]

This is not really something I feel like doing, and is also a recipe for getting in to trouble. Not sure what the rules here are, I'd rather just make the entire thread publicly available, is that an option Arch?

No

[O]

I blocked Teproc. Blocking all non-killing actions seemed like the most anti-town ability in the game, and I didn't think redirector would have a high usage or success rate D1.

This is obviously a shitty outcome, assuming Teproc is telling the truth... pretty low odds that I block a successful doctor shot D1...

It's not really low odds. He was the only one with a potential doctor power. Did you have a scum read on him for some reason?

Did I miss Faust's claim he wasn't a PR? He was a much more likely doctor.

its low odds that he 1) uses the shot and 2) hits the correct target

Teproc was the biggest PR scumread I had. Faust and Ashersky were also scumreads, but neither of their PRs make sense to block. the kill is probably? a 1/3 shot (doubtfully 1/4) even after hitting scum so I felt like blocking harmful PRs + possible scumkills was smarter than just scumkills

I did suggest I didn't find Teproc towny yesterday.

[EFHW]

I blocked Teproc. Blocking all non-killing actions seemed like the most anti-town ability in the game, and I didn't think redirector would have a high usage or success rate D1.

This is obviously a shitty outcome, assuming Teproc is telling the truth... pretty low odds that I block a successful doctor shot D1...

It's not really low odds. He was the only one with a potential doctor power. Did you have a scum read on him for some reason?

The nk is the most anti-town ability in the game. 

[O]

I blocked Teproc. Blocking all non-killing actions seemed like the most anti-town ability in the game, and I didn't think redirector would have a high usage or success rate D1.

This is obviously a shitty outcome, assuming Teproc is telling the truth... pretty low odds that I block a successful doctor shot D1...

It's not really low odds. He was the only one with a potential doctor power. Did you have a scum read on him for some reason?

The nk is the most anti-town ability in the game.

Good thing I used my roleblock on one of my three scumreads then

[Robz888]

I would be happy to make the qt public. My burning of robz 1-short dp as could be seen in the qt is 199% not based primarily on the fact that 1-shot dp is strong it has to do with the way the numbers and lynches work out.

With 14 players 11 town, 3 mafia assuming 1 mislynch and  1 nk.
D1 11/3, D2 9/3, D3 7/3, D4 5/3, a mislynch on D4 loses the game. 3 mislynches allowed.

My analysis began with what happens if we no lynch.
D1 11/3, D2 10/3, D3 8/3, D4, 6/3, D5 4/3, a mislynch in D5 loses the game. Still 3 mislynches allowed.

Then when analyzing everyone’s powers I realized burning robz 1-shot dp has the same effect as a no-lynch.

So if active scum!robz poses an EXTREME threat to town that is undeniable, if town robz is quite helpful but not as dangerous, it’s just a number game, adding an additional lynch required to end scum is much worse for town than one blocked night kill is good for town.

So In my mind the knowledge scum 1-shot deathproof robz does not exist may be worth it to town in exchange for burning a town 1-shot deathproof robz dp. Add in the fact that we had potential doctors and redirector and a potential cop and tracker an additional night of night actions could prove vastly more useful than a day of low activity and a necessity lynch of Joseph due to said low activity.

Had robz offered himself we would still have a town roleblocker in Joseph, we would know we are not dealing with a death proof scum, and we might still have Faust who was very active.

Now on top of all of that, never did I think oh because robz isn’t willing to burn his 1-shot dp which he might not even have he must be scum. Never, I understood his concern and I believe that would come across in our qt as well.

I wasn't scumreading you for the above analysis. It was several posts later when you said something like "well, I don't actually think we should do this until you tell us if you are 1-shot DP..." in a very leading way. That's when I started getting scum vibes from you. And then you later concede that if you were scum, that's exactly what you'd be doing!

[Robz888]

Now that O has confirmed blocking teproc I don’t think this lets gkrieg off the hook for his scummines yesterday and his pushing of the Joseph wagon, but I think we should be back to not limiting the lynch pool to teproc/gkrieg/O and look into robz and galzria as well who alongside gkrieg created the Joseph wagon and has been very much less active then normal.

Okay, so did you hammer Joseph so you could, to quote another player, setup a subsequent mislynch among the people you claim originated it?

[Robz888]

I blocked Teproc. Blocking all non-killing actions seemed like the most anti-town ability in the game, and I didn't think redirector would have a high usage or success rate D1.

This is obviously a shitty outcome, assuming Teproc is telling the truth... pretty low odds that I block a successful doctor shot D1...

It's not really low odds. He was the only one with a potential doctor power. Did you have a scum read on him for some reason?

Nah, faust was the main potential doctor.

[Robz888]

O, can you explain exactly what you thought ascetic did?

[Robz888]

Anyway, we know O is responsible for blocking Teproc. This means scum!gkrieg would have had no reason to avoid answering Teproc's question--I think scum!gkrieg is likely to have answered it right away, knowing he has nothing to hide. Way more likely IMO that town!gkrieg puts up the resistance we saw from him.

I also fully believe town!O could make this error. I mean, it's a terible thing, shame on you, but per Littlefinger I always try to imagine what's the worst thing for town that can happen, and it's usually that thing which happened.

Teproc seems likely to be town, though. Town, town, town, all three.

[O]

literally what is says

"block all non killing actions"

for everyone

[mcmcsalot]

Snipped

I wasn't scumreading you for the above analysis. It was several posts later when you said something like "well, I don't actually think we should do this until you tell us if you are 1-shot DP..." in a very leading way. That's when I started getting scum vibes from you. And then you later concede that if you were scum, that's exactly what you'd be doing!

Robz misconstruing here. I gave robz the same analysis I posted about number of mislynches and explained how in the long run as far as day one plans go, burning robz deathproof if active is probably net good for town. I then explained that I did not think it was worth blindly lynching robz solely based on the theory that if he’s active it’s a net positive play. So yes I hoped town robz if active saw the benefits to burning his dp and proving his towniness and if scum I’m gonna keep pushing his lynch regardless. I’m also not an idiot and understand if I was scum and robz town I would hopefully have put in as much pro town effort to come to the same conclusion and be trying to force robz to offer himself up on a platter.

Hence why day one my read on robz was not super strong, it was as he continued pandering and being worried about trusting me while also making statements like he should probably take my gkrieg read seriously because of how well I read him in a past game but then not really publicly supporting that case and ditching it to jump on the Joseph wagon at 5.

[mcmcsalot]

Oh an vote: robz

Also just think that if town scum is probably worried about robz, they would love a lynch, no one picked up on my robz vote day one at all.

[Teproc]

So O misread Ascetic, which was the whole reason I thought town!O would definitely not roleblock me ?

Great. Just great. Read the freaking rules, people.

[Teproc]

Also, O could be lying... I don't know though, playing dumb doesn't seem like scum!O ? Could be wrong.

Oh well, I still like lynching gkrieg anyway.

[Teproc]

Anyway, we know O is responsible for blocking Teproc. This means scum!gkrieg would have had no reason to avoid answering Teproc's question--I think scum!gkrieg is likely to have answered it right away, knowing he has nothing to hide. Way more likely IMO that town!gkrieg puts up the resistance we saw from him.

That makes sense, loathe as I am to admit it.

Unfortunately for you, that means...

vote: Robz

[EFHW]

I blocked Teproc. Blocking all non-killing actions seemed like the most anti-town ability in the game, and I didn't think redirector would have a high usage or success rate D1.

This is obviously a shitty outcome, assuming Teproc is telling the truth... pretty low odds that I block a successful doctor shot D1...

It's not really low odds. He was the only one with a potential doctor power. Did you have a scum read on him for some reason?

Nah, faust was the main potential doctor.

But faust couldn't protect himself and was a very likely nk target. Teproc was the only dr who could protect faust.

[O]

Also, O could be lying... I don't know though, playing dumb doesn't seem like scum!O ? Could be wrong.

Oh well, I still like lynching gkrieg anyway.

as you were mason with me i'm pretty confident you can confirm not reading shit is part of my town MO 

[Archetype]

Vote Count 2.2

Teproc (2): gkrieg13, DatSwan
O (1): ashersky
mcmcsalot (1): Robz888
Robz888 (3): chairs, mcmcsalot, Teproc

Not Voting (5): Galzria, O, Eevee, IDontPlayThisGame, EFHW
With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch. Day 2 will end January 8th at 7:00 PM

[EFHW]

Is Galz vla?

[EFHW]

Also, O could be lying... I don't know though, playing dumb doesn't seem like scum!O ? Could be wrong.

Oh well, I still like lynching gkrieg anyway.

as you were mason with me i'm pretty confident you can confirm not reading shit is part of my town MO 

What's your scum!MO?

[O]

Also, O could be lying... I don't know though, playing dumb doesn't seem like scum!O ? Could be wrong.

Oh well, I still like lynching gkrieg anyway.

as you were mason with me i'm pretty confident you can confirm not reading shit is part of my town MO 

What's your scum!MO?

it used to be similar, but I botched it pretty hard in that one scum game I had since returning. Generally came off as forced and unconvincing.

[EFHW]

How new is O? Would he be unaware that faust would be the likely nk target?

O, you haven't said why you thought Teproc was scum.

[O]

How new is O? Would he be unaware that faust would be the likely nk target?

O, you haven't said why you thought Teproc was scum.

I'm tied for oldest around here -- check Mafia 1 

Teproc's near explanationless gkrieg vote felt convenient. I said as much here.

These arbitrary "eh I guess I could vote for Gkrieg" votes seem fishy. Don't see why people are townreading teproc

[Galzria]

Is Galz vla?

More that I'm enjoying my last few days off before work begins again on the 4th.

Sorry - I'm up to date on everything. I'll post thoughts and opinions tomorrow.

The odds that scum target Faust to kill, town!Teproc targets Faust to Doctor, and town!O targets Teproc to Roleblock seem pretty extreme. There's a lot of people in this game. And we must remember this IS classified as Normal, not Role Madness. So Joseph (PR) dies, passing his power to O (PR), who uses it on Teproc (PR), who targeted Faust. And in the midst of this, Mcmc and Robz have clearly claimed that Mcmc is a PR.

That's 4 PR's. And that all collides N1? Not impossible. But also reeeeeally not likely.

Starting at the back:

If O is scum and Teproc town:
- Then Teproc was blocked or redirected. Gkrieg could be in play here as a potential O partner, or O could've inherited Roleblocker. Killing one potential Doctor while blocking/redirecting another is a solid scum play.

If O is town and Teproc is scum:
- Then Teproc never intended (or couldn't) to try and save Faust. So why drag Gkrieg into this? Because he needed to know if the Oracle result got flipped. So he fake claimed the Doctor on Faust to try and get Gkrieg to spill beans. This points towards town!Gkrieg, as it's unlikely a play they're making together. The problem is... what if Gkrieg says he didn't redirect Teproc, and O claims to have not blocked anybody? That sets up a Teproc/O/Gkrieg lynch scenario because somebody must be lying. Which brings us to:

If O is scum AND Teproc is scum:
The play is to claim to have Doctored Faust (Teproc), trying to pull information from Gkrieg on if he's active or not. In the event Gkrieg refuses to respond or says he didn't redirect, O can come in and claim to have blocked Teproc. "I didn't know the roles" is an easy cover for O to make here to explain away a small detail.

And then there's Robz and Mcmc. Robz has read townie to me so far this game. Mcmc has not. I'm inclined to believe that Mcmc IS an active PR though, and unless he targeted Faust as well last night then there should be somebody else in game that can confirm that he is. It's quite possible they're both town. It's unlikely they're both scum. Right now I'm inclined to lynch neither of them.

From D1, I was town on Gkrieg, null-ish on O, and scummy on Teproc. Faust too found Teproc scummy, which says something as his reads are usually pretty good. I think with what's happened today I still prefer a vote: Teproc.

I don't believe that all of {Joseph, O, Teproc, Mcmc} are PR's. And given Joseph is confirmed town, I believe there's at least one scum amongst the remainder there. I don't believe lynching Mcmc makes sense today, and of the two remaining I find Teproc more suspicious.

[Galzria]

Is Galz vla?

Sorry - I'm up to date on everything. I'll post thoughts and opinions tomorrow.

I'm bad at this lol.

[ashersky]

Glad to see I was right about O.

[Teproc]

vote: Galz

How is any of this unlikely ? There are only 2 PRs being claimed here (myself and O). I guess there's mcmc too, that's 3... how is that even close to RMM ? You including Joseph in this is ludicrous since Joseph has flipped... there being 4 PRs in a 13-player game (including O who may very well be scum claiming entirely truthfully) is nowhere near RMM or unbelievable. But you know that, so I can only assume this incredibly forced line of reasoning is not genuine because you're scum.

[Eevee]

I think the point is that it's pretty unlikely for all these pr's to interact like you (plural) claim they have. Much simpler explanation is that someone's lying.

[EFHW]

Glad to see I was right about O.

Sounds like you're posting to the speccy!  I know you're v/la, so maybe that's how it is right now.

[EFHW]

I think the point is that it's pretty unlikely for all these pr's to interact like you (plural) claim they have. Much simpler explanation is that someone's lying.

It's maybe unlikely there are so many PR's, but O blocking Teproc's doctor shot is not long odds at all. O knew he was roleblocker, so the chances of that are not relevant. He knew, I presume, that faust would be the most likely nk, so that's not long odds. Teproc was the only one with possible power to protect faust. His ascetic power was not that dangerous to town - who did O think Teproc would be targeting?

O brought up long odds as part of his defense. But it isn't really a defense in my mind at all. It makes me suspicious when people try to persuade me with illogical arguments.

O: Who did you think Teproc would target?

Galz: I followed your what ifs for the different combination of scum/town O/Teproc, but I'm wondering why you ended up on Teproc. The town!O/scum!Teproc combination didn't work, whereas all the scum!O scenarios seem plausible.

vote: O

[Eevee]

I'm feeling Vote: O as well. His actions make much more sense for scum.

[Robz888]

I don't agree, I think O's actions make lots of sense for town!O, right down to not understanding what ascetic does.

Galz's case on Teproc confuses the heck out of me. It seems pretty clear to me, bordering on inarguable, that gkrieg/Teproc/O/mcmc all have the powers they claim they had, and all did what they say they did. I'm venturing a guess that the O/Teproc thing is a giant town on town debacle, with gkrieg's refusal to claim making sense for town!him as well (why me pointing this out made Teproc think I'm scum I don't quite understand, but it doesn't make me read Teproc as scum).

I don't really know what to think of Galz, alignment wise, I've got a big null read on him. He could be scum. I'm worried he's calling the me/mcmc situation correctly because he's trying to buddy me. On the other hand, maybe he's calling it right because he's town and he's reading things correctly. That's what I want it to be!

Still confident on my mcmc case. I could also lynch somewhere in the chairs or DatSwan department, those guys are lurking.

[Robz888]

Oh, and IDP has done nothing to mitigate my Day 1 suspicion, and he may even be in "hard to lynch because he's scum" territory, but I guess his PR possibility works against wanting to lynch him.

Also I fully believe Arch would put like a bunch of PRs in this game, he only said there's at least one VT. I think it would be a little nuts to have fewer than 3 VTs, but beyond that... so yes, I think Galz is wrong about that. I think Arch likes crazy PR action, didn't he invent the DoMafia game?

[Teproc]

You pointing that Gkrieg's recation made more sense as town didn't make me think you were scum, it simply made me agree, and you were the other person I suspected the most. Make sense ?

[Teproc]

I agree the scum!O scenarios make sense enough on a PR level, but the way he went about it... less so. Scum!O can just hang back and let me push gkrieg all day/game by claiming not to have targeted me, seems like a much easier way to do things no ?

[Robz888]

You pointing that Gkrieg's recation made more sense as town didn't make me think you were scum, it simply made me agree, and you were the other person I suspected the most. Make sense ?

Yes, that makes sense, thank you.

[O]

I think the point is that it's pretty unlikely for all these pr's to interact like you (plural) claim they have. Much simpler explanation is that someone's lying.

It's maybe unlikely there are so many PR's, but O blocking Teproc's doctor shot is not long odds at all. O knew he was roleblocker, so the chances of that are not relevant. He knew, I presume, that faust would be the most likely nk, so that's not long odds. Teproc was the only one with possible power to protect faust. His ascetic power was not that dangerous to town - who did O think Teproc would be targeting?

O brought up long odds as part of his defense. But it isn't really a defense in my mind at all. It makes me suspicious when people try to persuade me with illogical arguments.

O: Who did you think Teproc would target?

Galz: I followed your what ifs for the different combination of scum/town O/Teproc, but I'm wondering why you ended up on Teproc. The town!O/scum!Teproc combination didn't work, whereas all the scum!O scenarios seem plausible.

vote: O

You claim that town!O should have known this was a likely outcome. This assumes prior knowledge that

1) Faust is town (I scumread Faust)
2) Teproc is town (I scumread Teproc)
3) Teproc is a PR
4) Scum fear doctor over tracker (which is wrong, IMO) or that tracker is scum (oh hey look)
5) No other PR interrupts this flow

You assume that I should make two assumptions about alignment that completely contradict the reads I made yesterday.

You also assume I should default think all of this when I learned I was Roleblocker only the night of, in the middle of holiday season


Beyond that, there's some odd circular logic in what you're proposing. You claim it was obvious to me that Teproc would Doctor Faust, and that scum would NK Faust, and that I'm lying about the low odds in my mind. You then claim that implies I'm scum. Why would I run such a ridiculously stupid gambit, putting myself in the hotseat like that? If was as omniscient as you claim, it would be clear to me that blocking Teproc would either be useless or would be net harmful. There's loads of WIFOM in your argument in that I'm smart enough to make all the deductions which you have so brilliantly made after the fact (truly amazing deductive skills)... but not smart enough to keep myself out of the hotseat after making those deductions.


Actually I have another theory -- that you aren't considering the alignment assumptions you make in your analysis because you know their alignments.


P.S.:
my math major background cries at the bastardization of the meaning of the words "logical" and "illogical" that you perpetuate.

[O]

oh, throw in another one:

After assuming Teprocs alignment, and then assuming that he is actually a PR, I should then assume that he choses the Doctor instead of the Tracker (more likely) or Ascetic (less likely) ability.

There is some magical levels of hindsight bias here.

[Galzria]

Galz's case on Teproc confuses the heck out of me. It seems pretty clear to me, bordering on inarguable, that gkrieg/Teproc/O/mcmc all have the powers they claim they had, and all did what they say they did.

Why? I strongly disagree with EFHW that it was "all obvious N1 who's actions would target who". And there are plenty of reasonable (more so then them all being town, I would argue) scenarios for one (or more) of them to be scum.

[Galzria]

I think the point is that it's pretty unlikely for all these pr's to interact like you (plural) claim they have. Much simpler explanation is that someone's lying.

It's maybe unlikely there are so many PR's, but O blocking Teproc's doctor shot is not long odds at all. O knew he was roleblocker, so the chances of that are not relevant. He knew, I presume, that faust would be the most likely nk, so that's not long odds. Teproc was the only one with possible power to protect faust. His ascetic power was not that dangerous to town - who did O think Teproc would be targeting?

O brought up long odds as part of his defense. But it isn't really a defense in my mind at all. It makes me suspicious when people try to persuade me with illogical arguments.

O: Who did you think Teproc would target?

Galz: I followed your what ifs for the different combination of scum/town O/Teproc, but I'm wondering why you ended up on Teproc. The town!O/scum!Teproc combination didn't work, whereas all the scum!O scenarios seem plausible.

vote: O

I could vote O as well. I ended on Teproc because at the end of it I have a bigger scum read on him PR related stuff aside, and Faust was also scum reading him which is worth something.

[Galzria]

I think the point is that it's pretty unlikely for all these pr's to interact like you (plural) claim they have. Much simpler explanation is that someone's lying.

Yes.

[O]

Galz's case on Teproc confuses the heck out of me. It seems pretty clear to me, bordering on inarguable, that gkrieg/Teproc/O/mcmc all have the powers they claim they had, and all did what they say they did.

Why? I strongly disagree with EFHW that it was "all obvious N1 who's actions would target who". And there are plenty of reasonable (more so then them all being town, I would argue) scenarios for one (or more) of them to be scum.

why is MCMC relevant here though?

[Galzria]

vote: Galz

How is any of this unlikely ? There are only 2 PRs being claimed here (myself and O). I guess there's mcmc too, that's 3... how is that even close to RMM ? You including Joseph in this is ludicrous since Joseph has flipped... there being 4 PRs in a 13-player game (including O who may very well be scum claiming entirely truthfully) is nowhere near RMM or unbelievable. But you know that, so I can only assume this incredibly forced line of reasoning is not genuine because you're scum.

My point, as Eevee noted, is that it's highly unlikely that:

{Joseph, Teproc, O, Mcmc} are all PR's
&
{Joseph, Teproc, O, Faust!NK} all collided NIGHT 1
&
{Joseph, Teproc, O, Mcmc} are all town

----------

What it boils down to is that I don't believe that all 4 of you are both {PR, Town}. As the entire series of events surrounding Faust's kill are highly suspect {Joseph dies -> O Inherits PR -> O Blocks Teproc -> Teproc fails to Doctor Faust -> Scum kill Faust), I'm more inclined to lynch between you and O than Mcmc (who, at a very least, can have his PR confirmed). I scum read you more than O, but that's not to say I find O townie. If people would prefer I'm good with that lynch too.

[Galzria]

Galz's case on Teproc confuses the heck out of me. It seems pretty clear to me, bordering on inarguable, that gkrieg/Teproc/O/mcmc all have the powers they claim they had, and all did what they say they did.

Why? I strongly disagree with EFHW that it was "all obvious N1 who's actions would target who". And there are plenty of reasonable (more so then them all being town, I would argue) scenarios for one (or more) of them to be scum.

why is MCMC relevant here though?

He's relevant simply to the argument of {Joseph, Mcmc, Teproc, O} all being both {Town, PR} in a 13 player normal game seems unlikely.

[O]

Galz's case on Teproc confuses the heck out of me. It seems pretty clear to me, bordering on inarguable, that gkrieg/Teproc/O/mcmc all have the powers they claim they had, and all did what they say they did.

Why? I strongly disagree with EFHW that it was "all obvious N1 who's actions would target who". And there are plenty of reasonable (more so then them all being town, I would argue) scenarios for one (or more) of them to be scum.

why is MCMC relevant here though?

He's relevant simply to the argument of {Joseph, Mcmc, Teproc, O} all being both {Town, PR} in a 13 player normal game seems unlikely.

the roles are pretty low impact, and I bet scum has at least 2, probs 3 PRs. Not sure I'd agree even if the result wasnt pointing a finger at me

[O]

More importantly why is MCMC being able to confirm he's a... neighborizer... at all relevant here?

he can confirm his role but do you think I could be lying about being a roleblocker even if I was scum? Why would I? I consider myself mostly confirmed here too.

[Galzria]

You claim that town!O should have known this was a likely outcome. This assumes prior knowledge that

1) Faust is town (I scumread Faust)
2) Teproc is town (I scumread Teproc)
3) Teproc is a PR
4) Scum fear doctor over tracker (which is wrong, IMO) or that tracker is scum (oh hey look)
5) No other PR interrupts this flow

This is all a fine defense if you're town. But if you're scum (and Teproc Town):

1) Yes, you knew that.
2) Yes, you know that.
3) No, you didn't know that, but you had to block somebody.
4) You would be blocking Teproc anyway. What's to fear?
5) That's an ok argument. Aside from DatSwan (irrelevant) and Gkrieg, who could interrupt this chain?

You're right that from a town!O perspective this all doesn't add up. But it kinda does from a scum!O perspective.

[O]

You claim that town!O should have known this was a likely outcome. This assumes prior knowledge that

1) Faust is town (I scumread Faust)
2) Teproc is town (I scumread Teproc)
3) Teproc is a PR
4) Scum fear doctor over tracker (which is wrong, IMO) or that tracker is scum (oh hey look)
5) No other PR interrupts this flow

This is all a fine defense if you're town. But if you're scum (and Teproc Town):

1) Yes, you knew that.
2) Yes, you know that.
3) No, you didn't know that, but you had to block somebody.
4) You would be blocking Teproc anyway. What's to fear?
5) That's an ok argument. Aside from DatSwan (irrelevant) and Gkrieg, who could interrupt this chain?

You're right that from a town!O perspective this all doesn't add up. But it kinda does from a scum!O perspective.

Huh?

His argument is that since town!O wouldn't have roleblocked Teproc, since he should know all of this.
My argument is that his argument doesn't hold up that town!O should have known all of this. The conclusion being that it's not alignment indicative, not that it must be towny.

I'm not ""proving"" my towniness. I'm ""disproving"" a ""proof"" of my scuminess.

[Teproc]

This is such pseudo-statistical bullshit. I could say "well it's very unlikely that all of {any group of 6 players} are town, so we must lynch there !" There's nothing unlikely at all in what's being claimed here... if anything strikes you as unlikely go ahead and point it out, but juust putting random things in a bundle and saying "this is all unlikely taken together" is nonsensical.

PPE: 2

[Teproc]

Galz, you're missing that full Tracker is possible in the game (EFHW).

[Galzria]

More importantly why is MCMC being able to confirm he's a... neighborizer... at all relevant here?

he can confirm his role but do you think I could be lying about being a roleblocker even if I was scum? Why would I? I consider myself mostly confirmed here too.

If you're scum I think you're telling the truth. The play to kill one Doctor and RB another is decently strong as scum. It makes that whole interaction make sense. The only outlying piece is that Teproc also guessed correctly at Doctoring Faust, which isn't unreasonable.

Scum!O {PR}
Town!Teproc {PR}
Town!Joseph {PR}
??!Mcmc {PR}

Isn't all that farfetched. All 4 of you being town is. Dropping Mcmc (as he's irrelevant here), it's still a bit farfetched that all 3 of {O, Joseph, Teproc} are both {Town, PR} and collided with the scum NK N1, which has been my argument from the start. Not that you can't all be PR's. Just that it's highly unlikely that you're all both PR's AND town.

[O]

Galzria's being quite atypically sloppy today. He completely missed the mark on what my response meant and is doing weird stuff with MCMC's role confirmation on already dubious probability chains

PPE: now was with MCMC.

[Galzria]

You claim that town!O should have known this was a likely outcome. This assumes prior knowledge that

1) Faust is town (I scumread Faust)
2) Teproc is town (I scumread Teproc)
3) Teproc is a PR
4) Scum fear doctor over tracker (which is wrong, IMO) or that tracker is scum (oh hey look)
5) No other PR interrupts this flow

This is all a fine defense if you're town. But if you're scum (and Teproc Town):

1) Yes, you knew that.
2) Yes, you know that.
3) No, you didn't know that, but you had to block somebody.
4) You would be blocking Teproc anyway. What's to fear?
5) That's an ok argument. Aside from DatSwan (irrelevant) and Gkrieg, who could interrupt this chain?

You're right that from a town!O perspective this all doesn't add up. But it kinda does from a scum!O perspective.

Huh?

His argument is that since town!O wouldn't have roleblocked Teproc, since he should know all of this.
My argument is that his argument doesn't hold up that town!O should have known all of this. The conclusion being that it's not alignment indicative, not that it must be towny.

I'm not ""proving"" my towniness. I'm ""disproving"" a ""proof"" of my scuminess.

Sorry, taken out of context. I missed most of EFHW's argument on that.

[O]

More importantly why is MCMC being able to confirm he's a... neighborizer... at all relevant here?

he can confirm his role but do you think I could be lying about being a roleblocker even if I was scum? Why would I? I consider myself mostly confirmed here too.

If you're scum I think you're telling the truth. The play to kill one Doctor and RB another is decently strong as scum. It makes that whole interaction make sense. The only outlying piece is that Teproc also guessed correctly at Doctoring Faust, which isn't unreasonable.

Scum!O {PR}
Town!Teproc {PR}
Town!Joseph {PR}
??!Mcmc {PR}

Isn't all that farfetched. All 4 of you being town is. Dropping Mcmc (as he's irrelevant here), it's still a bit farfetched that all 3 of {O, Joseph, Teproc} are both {Town, PR} and collided with the scum NK N1, which has been my argument from the start. Not that you can't all be PR's. Just that it's highly unlikely that you're all both PR's AND town.

It's a 1/3600 chance that you posted with :41 seconds on the F.DS timer and that I posted with :44.

I'm pretty sure we're colluding IRL to post with those times.

[Galzria]

This is such pseudo-statistical bullshit. I could say "well it's very unlikely that all of {any group of 6 players} are town, so we must lynch there !" There's nothing unlikely at all in what's being claimed here... if anything strikes you as unlikely go ahead and point it out, but juust putting random things in a bundle and saying "this is all unlikely taken together" is nonsensical.

PPE: 2

You're completely disregarding the point of what makes it unlikely. It's not "some random grouping of players". It's a grouping that follows an unlikely series of events.

Your argument is that {Town!PR} Joseph got lynched, and {Town!PR} O inherited his power, then choose to block {Town!PR} Teproc, who just so happened to be attempting to Doctor Town!Faust, who scum were also killing.

THAT'S not a reasonable scenario of events on N1 where there are 12 people alive. The odds that all of you are both active PR's and town with no insight into the rest of that chain and yet it all falls together like that is ridiculous.

[O]

This is such pseudo-statistical bullshit. I could say "well it's very unlikely that all of {any group of 6 players} are town, so we must lynch there !" There's nothing unlikely at all in what's being claimed here... if anything strikes you as unlikely go ahead and point it out, but juust putting random things in a bundle and saying "this is all unlikely taken together" is nonsensical.

PPE: 2

You're completely disregarding the point of what makes it unlikely. It's not "some random grouping of players". It's a grouping that follows an unlikely series of events.

Your argument is that {Town!PR} Joseph got lynched, and {Town!PR} O inherited his power, then choose to block {Town!PR} Teproc, who just so happened to be attempting to Doctor Town!Faust, who scum were also killing.

THAT'S not a reasonable scenario of events on N1 where there are 12 people alive. The odds that all of you are both active PR's and town with no insight into the rest of that chain and yet it all falls together like that is ridiculous.

Can you make a statistical argument as to why any one of the possibilities with scum are actually more likely?

[Teproc]

Including Joseph in this is ludicrous to start with as he's not an unknown. It's like saying it's unlikely this exact group of players would be playing a game of mafia together or something.

Besides, the only unreasonable thing is that O misread Ascetic. Which, maybe he didn't and he's just scum, but everything else is pretty obvious stuff: faust was an obvious NK target (powerful PR on one of the most respected town players), which made my decision relatively easy (it's much easier to guess the kill than the killer in general)... and then O targeting me is only surprising because of the Ascetic thing. O was clearly suspicious of me on D1.

[Teproc]

The most unlikely thing of all is that you (Galz) would make this crappy an argument.

So, you know, lynch Galz, people.

[O]

i want to point out that i just took the text literally... if ascetic was a Dominion card, the card would be executed by my interpretation.

still my bad tho

[Galzria]

The most unlikely thing of all is that you (Galz) would make this crappy an argument.

So, you know, lynch Galz, people.

Yes, people, do. And when Galz flips yet another town PR you can all realize what idiots you've been and go back and MAYBE salvage this game by lynching Teproc/O.

Or, you know, maybe you can realize that my arguments against the unlikely nature of ALL these players being town and PR's are because I myself am a town PR and this is a NORMAL game, so with 13 players alive there aren't freaking 5 Town PR's - and all this crap with Teproc and O is ridiculously unlikely to begin with!

[O]

The most unlikely thing of all is that you (Galz) would make this crappy an argument.

So, you know, lynch Galz, people.

Yes, people, do. And when Galz flips yet another town PR you can all realize what idiots you've been and go back and MAYBE salvage this game by lynching Teproc/O.

Or, you know, maybe you can realize that my arguments against the unlikely nature of ALL these players being town and PR's are because I myself am a town PR and this is a NORMAL game, so with 13 players alive there aren't freaking 5 Town PR's - and all this crap with Teproc and O is ridiculously unlikely to begin with!

I'd guesstimate 6 town PRs vs 3 scum PRs actually?
Actually.. there could even be 4 scum. That would pretty easily justify loading town PRs.


the town PRs are super weak, minus the doctor/tracker. It's not like we're playing with cops here.

[O]

but really it's not like I'm sold on Teproc being town. He easily could have shot his tracker shot and known he was interrupted.

It's just I don't see a convincing argument for town to reduce the lynch pool like that.

[Galzria]

The most unlikely thing of all is that you (Galz) would make this crappy an argument.

So, you know, lynch Galz, people.

Yes, people, do. And when Galz flips yet another town PR you can all realize what idiots you've been and go back and MAYBE salvage this game by lynching Teproc/O.

Or, you know, maybe you can realize that my arguments against the unlikely nature of ALL these players being town and PR's are because I myself am a town PR and this is a NORMAL game, so with 13 players alive there aren't freaking 5 Town PR's - and all this crap with Teproc and O is ridiculously unlikely to begin with!

I'd guesstimate 6 town PRs vs 3 scum PRs actually?
Actually.. there could even be 4 scum. That would pretty easily justify loading town PRs.


the town PRs are super weak, minus the doctor/tracker. It's not like we're playing with cops here.

If that's indeed the setup then this will once again be my last game here for some while. I got sick of Normal classed games being RMM after Modern Community before. There's an expectation set forth when you classify games, and it's the mod breaking trust with the players to present something different.

Until proven wrong, I'll continue to operate under the assumption that the game is actually setup like it's classified. 13 players, 3-4 town PR's, 1-2 scum PR's, and about 50% vanilla.

[O]

That's your prerogative but I can't help but think of what early setups were often like and chuckle.

And I don't know why you would read "it's guaranteed there is at least one vanilla" and draw the conclusion that it's going to be 50%+ vanilla

[Galzria]

That's your prerogative but I can't help but think of what early setups were often like and chuckle.

And I don't know why you would read "it's guaranteed there is at least one vanilla" and draw the conclusion that it's going to be 50%+ vanilla

The conclusion was drawn based on the classification, not that statement. There's a reason these guidelines exist.

[Teproc]

5 town PRs would not be RMM. You played Lost Mafia and M100 which were closer to RMM than this would be, but I guess that's another discussion. The RMM-y thing here is that there are multiple possibilities for redirection, but again: not really the time and place for that discussion I think.

Also, yeah, O could be scum. mcmc could be scum too. I don't see that the fact that they're claiming PRs makes them more likely than anyone else to be.

[Archetype]

Vote Count 2.3

Teproc (3): gkrieg13, DatSwan, Galzria
O (3): ashersky, EFHW, Eevee
mcmcsalot (1): Robz888
Robz888 (2): chairs, mcmcsalot
Galzria (1): Teproc

Not Voting (2): O, IDontPlayThisGame
With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch. Day 2 will end January 8th at 7:00 PM

[EFHW]

I think the point is that it's pretty unlikely for all these pr's to interact like you (plural) claim they have. Much simpler explanation is that someone's lying.

It's maybe unlikely there are so many PR's, but O blocking Teproc's doctor shot is not long odds at all. O knew he was roleblocker, so the chances of that are not relevant. He knew, I presume, that faust would be the most likely nk, so that's not long odds. Teproc was the only one with possible power to protect faust. His ascetic power was not that dangerous to town - who did O think Teproc would be targeting?

O brought up long odds as part of his defense. But it isn't really a defense in my mind at all. It makes me suspicious when people try to persuade me with illogical arguments.

O: Who did you think Teproc would target?

Galz: I followed your what ifs for the different combination of scum/town O/Teproc, but I'm wondering why you ended up on Teproc. The town!O/scum!Teproc combination didn't work, whereas all the scum!O scenarios seem plausible.

vote: O

You claim that town!O should have known this was a likely outcome. This assumes prior knowledge that

1) Faust is town (I scumread Faust)
2) Teproc is town (I scumread Teproc)
3) Teproc is a PR
4) Scum fear doctor over tracker (which is wrong, IMO) or that tracker is scum (oh hey look)
5) No other PR interrupts this flow

You assume that I should make two assumptions about alignment that completely contradict the reads I made yesterday.

You also assume I should default think all of this when I learned I was Roleblocker only the night of, in the middle of holiday season


Beyond that, there's some odd circular logic in what you're proposing. You claim it was obvious to me that Teproc would Doctor Faust, and that scum would NK Faust, and that I'm lying about the low odds in my mind. You then claim that implies I'm scum. Why would I run such a ridiculously stupid gambit, putting myself in the hotseat like that? If was as omniscient as you claim, it would be clear to me that blocking Teproc would either be useless or would be net harmful. There's loads of WIFOM in your argument in that I'm smart enough to make all the deductions which you have so brilliantly made after the fact (truly amazing deductive skills)... but not smart enough to keep myself out of the hotseat after making those deductions.


Actually I have another theory -- that you aren't considering the alignment assumptions you make in your analysis because you know their alignments.


P.S.:
my math major background cries at the bastardization of the meaning of the words "logical" and "illogical" that you perpetuate.

Sorry you are so angry, I wasn't trying to insult you. Even if you had scumreads on faust and Teproc, you couldn't have been sure after just D1. Leaving Teproc free to protect faust can't hurt if faust is scum and can help if they are both town. But I'm not trying to criticize your town play, though if you are town then I recognize that is what I am doing, I think your explanations don't hang together as a town!narrative. Then you talked about this being an unlikely outcome, when it isn't.

You haven't said who you were worried town!teproc would target (with the version of his power as you understood it).

[EFHW]

That should say scum!Teproc.

[Robz888]

5 town PRs would not be RMM. You played Lost Mafia and M100 which were closer to RMM than this would be, but I guess that's another discussion. The RMM-y thing here is that there are multiple possibilities for redirection, but again: not really the time and place for that discussion I think.

Also, yeah, O could be scum. mcmc could be scum too. I don't see that the fact that they're claiming PRs makes them more likely than anyone else to be.

Yes this 100%. Even in like the normal JK+ or C9+ or whatever it is, you can easily get 5 town PRs out of 13.

Galz seems to be making an argument for what he'd like the setup to be, rather than what it clearly is. This does strike me as a frustrated scum thing, more often than not.

[Galzria]

5 town PRs would not be RMM. You played Lost Mafia and M100 which were closer to RMM than this would be, but I guess that's another discussion. The RMM-y thing here is that there are multiple possibilities for redirection, but again: not really the time and place for that discussion I think.

Also, yeah, O could be scum. mcmc could be scum too. I don't see that the fact that they're claiming PRs makes them more likely than anyone else to be.

Yes this 100%. Even in like the normal JK+ or C9+ or whatever it is, you can easily get 5 town PRs out of 13.

Galz seems to be making an argument for what he'd like the setup to be, rather than what it clearly is. This does strike me as a frustrated scum thing, more often than not.

You've evaded my question every time. Good job.

[Robz888]

Galz being frustrated scum would make me even more confident Teproc/O/gkrieg are all town, because that's something that could frustrate him, realizing all these townies have PRs. It undercuts my scum!mcmc read a bit though, because to be fair he would belong in that list too. Hmm.

[Robz888]

5 town PRs would not be RMM. You played Lost Mafia and M100 which were closer to RMM than this would be, but I guess that's another discussion. The RMM-y thing here is that there are multiple possibilities for redirection, but again: not really the time and place for that discussion I think.

Also, yeah, O could be scum. mcmc could be scum too. I don't see that the fact that they're claiming PRs makes them more likely than anyone else to be.

What's your question? I'm sorry.

Yes this 100%. Even in like the normal JK+ or C9+ or whatever it is, you can easily get 5 town PRs out of 13.

Galz seems to be making an argument for what he'd like the setup to be, rather than what it clearly is. This does strike me as a frustrated scum thing, more often than not.

You've evaded my question every time. Good job.

[Robz888]

5 town PRs would not be RMM. You played Lost Mafia and M100 which were closer to RMM than this would be, but I guess that's another discussion. The RMM-y thing here is that there are multiple possibilities for redirection, but again: not really the time and place for that discussion I think.

Also, yeah, O could be scum. mcmc could be scum too. I don't see that the fact that they're claiming PRs makes them more likely than anyone else to be.

What's your question? I'm sorry.

Yes this 100%. Even in like the normal JK+ or C9+ or whatever it is, you can easily get 5 town PRs out of 13.

Galz seems to be making an argument for what he'd like the setup to be, rather than what it clearly is. This does strike me as a frustrated scum thing, more often than not.

You've evaded my question every time. Good job.

Fixing: What's your question? Sorry about that.

[Robz888]

Also a big difference between this game and Modern Community is that it's fully open. We know all possible PRs. I think those games get more latitude to be described as Normal.

I don't want Galz to leave though!

[Galzria]

Galz's case on Teproc confuses the heck out of me. It seems pretty clear to me, bordering on inarguable, that gkrieg/Teproc/O/mcmc all have the powers they claim they had, and all did what they say they did.

Why? I strongly disagree with EFHW that it was "all obvious N1 who's actions would target who". And there are plenty of reasonable (more so then them all being town, I would argue) scenarios for one (or more) of them to be scum.

[Galzria]

Galz being frustrated scum would make me even more confident Teproc/O/gkrieg are all town, because that's something that could frustrate him, realizing all these townies have PRs. It undercuts my scum!mcmc read a bit though, because to be fair he would belong in that list too. Hmm.

The most unlikely thing of all is that you (Galz) would make this crappy an argument.

So, you know, lynch Galz, people.

Yes, people, do. And when Galz flips yet another town PR you can all realize what idiots you've been and go back and MAYBE salvage this game by lynching Teproc/O.

Or, you know, maybe you can realize that my arguments against the unlikely nature of ALL these players being town and PR's are because I myself am a town PR and this is a NORMAL game, so with 13 players alive there aren't freaking 5 Town PR's - and all this crap with Teproc and O is ridiculously unlikely to begin with!

[O]

I think the point is that it's pretty unlikely for all these pr's to interact like you (plural) claim they have. Much simpler explanation is that someone's lying.

It's maybe unlikely there are so many PR's, but O blocking Teproc's doctor shot is not long odds at all. O knew he was roleblocker, so the chances of that are not relevant. He knew, I presume, that faust would be the most likely nk, so that's not long odds. Teproc was the only one with possible power to protect faust. His ascetic power was not that dangerous to town - who did O think Teproc would be targeting?

O brought up long odds as part of his defense. But it isn't really a defense in my mind at all. It makes me suspicious when people try to persuade me with illogical arguments.

O: Who did you think Teproc would target?

Galz: I followed your what ifs for the different combination of scum/town O/Teproc, but I'm wondering why you ended up on Teproc. The town!O/scum!Teproc combination didn't work, whereas all the scum!O scenarios seem plausible.

vote: O

You claim that town!O should have known this was a likely outcome. This assumes prior knowledge that

1) Faust is town (I scumread Faust)
2) Teproc is town (I scumread Teproc)
3) Teproc is a PR
4) Scum fear doctor over tracker (which is wrong, IMO) or that tracker is scum (oh hey look)
5) No other PR interrupts this flow

You assume that I should make two assumptions about alignment that completely contradict the reads I made yesterday.

You also assume I should default think all of this when I learned I was Roleblocker only the night of, in the middle of holiday season


Beyond that, there's some odd circular logic in what you're proposing. You claim it was obvious to me that Teproc would Doctor Faust, and that scum would NK Faust, and that I'm lying about the low odds in my mind. You then claim that implies I'm scum. Why would I run such a ridiculously stupid gambit, putting myself in the hotseat like that? If was as omniscient as you claim, it would be clear to me that blocking Teproc would either be useless or would be net harmful. There's loads of WIFOM in your argument in that I'm smart enough to make all the deductions which you have so brilliantly made after the fact (truly amazing deductive skills)... but not smart enough to keep myself out of the hotseat after making those deductions.


Actually I have another theory -- that you aren't considering the alignment assumptions you make in your analysis because you know their alignments.


P.S.:
my math major background cries at the bastardization of the meaning of the words "logical" and "illogical" that you perpetuate.

Sorry you are so angry, I wasn't trying to insult you. Even if you had scumreads on faust and Teproc, you couldn't have been sure after just D1. Leaving Teproc free to protect faust can't hurt if faust is scum and can help if they are both town. But I'm not trying to criticize your town play, though if you are town then I recognize that is what I am doing, I think your explanations don't hang together as a town!narrative. Then you talked about this being an unlikely outcome, when it isn't.

You haven't said who you were worried town!teproc would target (with the version of his power as you understood it).

my version of the power was global, not targeted.

[Robz888]

Galz being frustrated scum would make me even more confident Teproc/O/gkrieg are all town, because that's something that could frustrate him, realizing all these townies have PRs. It undercuts my scum!mcmc read a bit though, because to be fair he would belong in that list too. Hmm.

The most unlikely thing of all is that you (Galz) would make this crappy an argument.

So, you know, lynch Galz, people.

Yes, people, do. And when Galz flips yet another town PR you can all realize what idiots you've been and go back and MAYBE salvage this game by lynching Teproc/O.

Or, you know, maybe you can realize that my arguments against the unlikely nature of ALL these players being town and PR's are because I myself am a town PR and this is a NORMAL game, so with 13 players alive there aren't freaking 5 Town PR's - and all this crap with Teproc and O is ridiculously unlikely to begin with!

Well, claiming waaaaaaaaaay too early is actually a very town!Galz thing to do. (I remember watching his insanely premature candidate claim in Lost Mafia.)

[O]

Also I wasn't insulted in any personal manner. I just think your understanding of the odds in this game seems even worse than Galzria's, who at least could have a point with merit somewhere in there

[Galzria]

Galz being frustrated scum would make me even more confident Teproc/O/gkrieg are all town, because that's something that could frustrate him, realizing all these townies have PRs. It undercuts my scum!mcmc read a bit though, because to be fair he would belong in that list too. Hmm.

The most unlikely thing of all is that you (Galz) would make this crappy an argument.

So, you know, lynch Galz, people.

Yes, people, do. And when Galz flips yet another town PR you can all realize what idiots you've been and go back and MAYBE salvage this game by lynching Teproc/O.

Or, you know, maybe you can realize that my arguments against the unlikely nature of ALL these players being town and PR's are because I myself am a town PR and this is a NORMAL game, so with 13 players alive there aren't freaking 5 Town PR's - and all this crap with Teproc and O is ridiculously unlikely to begin with!

Well, claiming waaaaaaaaaay too early is actually a very town!Galz thing to do. (I remember watching his insanely premature candidate claim in Lost Mafia.)

Scum Galz does the same thing. Don't artificially assign town points places they don't belong to make yourself seem more reasonable.

[Robz888]

Galz's case on Teproc confuses the heck out of me. It seems pretty clear to me, bordering on inarguable, that gkrieg/Teproc/O/mcmc all have the powers they claim they had, and all did what they say they did.

Why? I strongly disagree with EFHW that it was "all obvious N1 who's actions would target who". And there are plenty of reasonable (more so then them all being town, I would argue) scenarios for one (or more) of them to be scum.

Well mcmc def has the power he has, because I was neighborized. O def has the power he has because Teproc's action failed. Teproc def has the power he has because why would he bring all this up if not? Gkrieg, actually did gkrieg actually confirm he has his PR, or just that he didn't target Teproc, I can't remember?

Basically, a lot of stuff got brought up, and I think the Occam's razor in this case is that it all happened.

Power is different from alignment. O could be scum, I just don't think he is. Same for gkrieg. Same for Teproc.

[O]

Don't artificially assign town points places they don't belong to make yourself seem more reasonable.

mafia threads would only be 20 pages if we didnt do that tho

[Robz888]

So your case doesn't confuse me, confuse was the wrong word, I get that you think someone there is lying about PR, and lying players are scum. I just don't actually think anyone is lying about PR here. They could be scum anyway, but I'm actually not reading them that way.

[Robz888]

So your case doesn't confuse me, confuse was the wrong word, I get that you think someone there is lying about PR, and lying players are scum. I just don't actually think anyone is lying about PR here. They could be scum anyway, but I'm actually not reading them that way.

This is directed at Galz.

[Galzria]

Galz's case on Teproc confuses the heck out of me. It seems pretty clear to me, bordering on inarguable, that gkrieg/Teproc/O/mcmc all have the powers they claim they had, and all did what they say they did.

Why? I strongly disagree with EFHW that it was "all obvious N1 who's actions would target who". And there are plenty of reasonable (more so then them all being town, I would argue) scenarios for one (or more) of them to be scum.

Well mcmc def has the power he has, because I was neighborized. O def has the power he has because Teproc's action failed. Teproc def has the power he has because why would he bring all this up if not? Gkrieg, actually did gkrieg actually confirm he has his PR, or just that he didn't target Teproc, I can't remember?

Basically, a lot of stuff got brought up, and I think the Occam's razor in this case is that it all happened.

Power is different from alignment. O could be scum, I just don't think he is. Same for gkrieg. Same for Teproc.

Teproc and O could both be scum. Teproc Goon. O UB. Scum killed Faust, Teproc tried to get Gkrieg to spill on whether he's active so they know if their Oracle was reversed or not. In the outcome that Gkrieg is not active (or refuses to say), O can claim to have blocked Teproc - in reality he blocked EFHW to prevent tracking.

That's a much more reasonable scenario than what's been claimed.

[Robz888]

Galz's case on Teproc confuses the heck out of me. It seems pretty clear to me, bordering on inarguable, that gkrieg/Teproc/O/mcmc all have the powers they claim they had, and all did what they say they did.

Why? I strongly disagree with EFHW that it was "all obvious N1 who's actions would target who". And there are plenty of reasonable (more so then them all being town, I would argue) scenarios for one (or more) of them to be scum.

Well mcmc def has the power he has, because I was neighborized. O def has the power he has because Teproc's action failed. Teproc def has the power he has because why would he bring all this up if not? Gkrieg, actually did gkrieg actually confirm he has his PR, or just that he didn't target Teproc, I can't remember?

Basically, a lot of stuff got brought up, and I think the Occam's razor in this case is that it all happened.

Power is different from alignment. O could be scum, I just don't think he is. Same for gkrieg. Same for Teproc.

Teproc and O could both be scum. Teproc Goon. O UB. Scum killed Faust, Teproc tried to get Gkrieg to spill on whether he's active so they know if their Oracle was reversed or not. In the outcome that Gkrieg is not active (or refuses to say), O can claim to have blocked Teproc - in reality he blocked EFHW to prevent tracking.

That's a much more reasonable scenario than what's been claimed.

This scenario A) puts unnecessary heat on O, purely caused by his scummate’s plan, and B) requires scum!O to have planned the “I misread ascetic” thing

[Robz888]

It seems like fancy play syndrome to me, for scum partners O and Teproc to do this.

[Robz888]

In fact scum!Teproc having just taken no action to save Faust, because he didn’t want to or is just a Goon, and then making a fake claim to try and implicate town gkroeg or O, seems wildly more plausible.

[Galzria]

Galz's case on Teproc confuses the heck out of me. It seems pretty clear to me, bordering on inarguable, that gkrieg/Teproc/O/mcmc all have the powers they claim they had, and all did what they say they did.

Why? I strongly disagree with EFHW that it was "all obvious N1 who's actions would target who". And there are plenty of reasonable (more so then them all being town, I would argue) scenarios for one (or more) of them to be scum.

Well mcmc def has the power he has, because I was neighborized. O def has the power he has because Teproc's action failed. Teproc def has the power he has because why would he bring all this up if not? Gkrieg, actually did gkrieg actually confirm he has his PR, or just that he didn't target Teproc, I can't remember?

Basically, a lot of stuff got brought up, and I think the Occam's razor in this case is that it all happened.

Power is different from alignment. O could be scum, I just don't think he is. Same for gkrieg. Same for Teproc.

Teproc and O could both be scum. Teproc Goon. O UB. Scum killed Faust, Teproc tried to get Gkrieg to spill on whether he's active so they know if their Oracle was reversed or not. In the outcome that Gkrieg is not active (or refuses to say), O can claim to have blocked Teproc - in reality he blocked EFHW to prevent tracking.

That's a much more reasonable scenario than what's been claimed.

This scenario A) puts unnecessary heat on O, purely caused by his scummate’s plan, and B) requires scum!O to have planned the “I misread ascetic” thing

A) I don't know why you would assume this as you, yourself believe the whole thing to be completely reasonable.

B) And that's not hard to do, now is it?

[Galzria]

It seems like fancy play syndrome to me, for scum partners O and Teproc to do this.

I disagree.

[Teproc]

Galz's case on Teproc confuses the heck out of me. It seems pretty clear to me, bordering on inarguable, that gkrieg/Teproc/O/mcmc all have the powers they claim they had, and all did what they say they did.

Why? I strongly disagree with EFHW that it was "all obvious N1 who's actions would target who". And there are plenty of reasonable (more so then them all being town, I would argue) scenarios for one (or more) of them to be scum.

Well mcmc def has the power he has, because I was neighborized. O def has the power he has because Teproc's action failed. Teproc def has the power he has because why would he bring all this up if not? Gkrieg, actually did gkrieg actually confirm he has his PR, or just that he didn't target Teproc, I can't remember?

Basically, a lot of stuff got brought up, and I think the Occam's razor in this case is that it all happened.

Power is different from alignment. O could be scum, I just don't think he is. Same for gkrieg. Same for Teproc.

Teproc and O could both be scum. Teproc Goon. O UB. Scum killed Faust, Teproc tried to get Gkrieg to spill on whether he's active so they know if their Oracle was reversed or not. In the outcome that Gkrieg is not active (or refuses to say), O can claim to have blocked Teproc - in reality he blocked EFHW to prevent tracking.

That's a much more reasonable scenario than what's been claimed.

That's insane.

[Robz888]

I believe O could have done it as town for reasons of misunderstanding and stupidity. Next most likely is O doing it for sincere evil scum blockin Teproc reasons. Next most likely is scum teproc plotting this to ensnare gkrieg or O or someone, and landing a hit in town O. Least likely of all is this being a scum Teproc and scum O conspiracy to... put heat on them both.

[Teproc]

Why am I claiming in this scenario exactly ? You're looking at it retroactively instead of startgin from the beginning: the explanation is the simplest. I agree with how RObz summarized it above: it is pretty clear that the PRS being claimed are truthful... alignment is another thing, but I happen to think O and mcmc are town.

[Teproc]

The above is adressed to Galz, not Robz (who is making the same point I am more or less).

[Robz888]

I mean, Galz’s theory gains credibility if you think someone in there has to be lying about a PR for setup reasons. But there isn’t really reason to think that.

[Teproc]

O really can't be lying about his PR, because why would scum!O claim when him not claiming leads to me tunneling gkrieg and maybe getting him lynched ? I guess if they're partners. Then if you're arguing I'm the one fakeclaiming, the issue is why do I bother with this at all in the first place ?

[Galzria]

O really can't be lying about his PR, because why would scum!O claim when him not claiming leads to me tunneling gkrieg and maybe getting him lynched ? I guess if they're partners. Then if you're arguing I'm the one fakeclaiming, the issue is why do I bother with this at all in the first place ?

I think I need gkrieg to claim his night action (or lack thereof).

I refuse to do so.

I get that, so I'll put it another way: did you target me last night ?

vote: Teproc. Why would I ever claim my first target???  This is such a scummy question.

Agree. If the first target is evil, then they know their Oracle answer was inverted, which negates that part of his power.

Teproc - What value did you see in gkrieg disclosing this? Are you saying you tried to protect faust? My next question was going to be why didn't you, so that would fit.

Teproc, I understand you wanting to know if you were redirected, but you realize that it would also tell scum that their oracle answer is true or false, which completely takes away from my role.

I do but I kinda think if you redirected me then you're probably scum, and if you didn't it doesn't matter, so...

[Galzria]

You said it yourself. You wanted to know if your Oracle result was true or not.

[Teproc]

Right... so the scum team picked me out of a hat to ask gkrieg that question, on the off chance that
a) he did target me
b) he'll claim it

?

[Robz888]

You said it yourself. You wanted to know if your Oracle result was true or not.

Well that could support the lone Teproc!scum theory, sure. Not really the Teproc and O scum theory.

[Galzria]

Right... so the scum team picked me out of a hat to ask gkrieg that question, on the off chance that
a) he did target me
b) he'll claim it

?

Of course. Your supposed PR plays it perfectly. Why wouldn't scum?

[Teproc]

I guess you'd say I used Tracker and somehow knew I got interferred with ? That assumes scum!me is using Tracker instead of the safe play (Ascetic kill), AND that I got to know my tracking was interferred with, which isn't that easy.

[O]

wait so Teproc did all this crap to verify immediately whether his mildly-better-than-single-rolecop question was true, as opposed to waiting and seeing if Gkrieg even has this power?

[Teproc]

Right... so the scum team picked me out of a hat to ask gkrieg that question, on the off chance that
a) he did target me
b) he'll claim it

?

Of course. Your supposed PR plays it perfectly. Why wouldn't scum?

Right, because scum!me doctored faust. I'm such a genius mafia player, such a next level play.

[Galzria]

You said it yourself. You wanted to know if your Oracle result was true or not.

Well that could support the lone Teproc!scum theory, sure. Not really the Teproc and O scum theory.

It supports both. What if Gkrieg says "No, I didn't"? Then Teproc looks like a tool unless O is there to swoop in and take credit for the block.

[O]

can we go back to more reasonable insane conspiracy theories, like my still yet to be disproven ashersky-robz lynch bait

[Teproc]

Please carefully explain to me what I did last night if I'm scum, and why I did what I did today then.

[Galzria]

Right... so the scum team picked me out of a hat to ask gkrieg that question, on the off chance that
a) he did target me
b) he'll claim it

?

Of course. Your supposed PR plays it perfectly. Why wouldn't scum?

Right, because scum!me doctored faust. I'm such a genius mafia player, such a next level play.

Scum you doesn't go around saying "Hey guys! I'm scum!", does he? What's your argument again? That you've claimed to do something that scum you wouldn't do? And I'm arguing... *gasp*! That you didn't do what you claimed.

[Teproc]

can we go back to more reasonable insane conspiracy theories, like my still yet to be disproven ashersky-robz lynch bait

I'm torn because I want to say under-the-radar-ash is scum!ash, but he's VLA-ish, so meh. Robz has been kinda townie today, too.

I'd be more inclined to lynch the people completely avoiding this whole conversation, like Swan or IDPTG.

[Robz888]

You said it yourself. You wanted to know if your Oracle result was true or not.

Well that could support the lone Teproc!scum theory, sure. Not really the Teproc and O scum theory.

It supports both. What if Gkrieg says "No, I didn't"? Then Teproc looks like a tool unless O is there to swoop in and take credit for the block.

And then the chances of lynching O would be verrrry high. I don't think O and Teproc would have agreed to put O in the position of having to pull off a really good fake, just to stick it to gkrieg. I think one would have talked the other out of this plan. I watched how the proceeded as Masons, it was smart and thoughtful and cautious. This seems reckless.

[Robz888]

can we go back to more reasonable insane conspiracy theories, like my still yet to be disproven ashersky-robz lynch bait

I'm still willing to hammer him!

[Teproc]

Right... so the scum team picked me out of a hat to ask gkrieg that question, on the off chance that
a) he did target me
b) he'll claim it

?

Of course. Your supposed PR plays it perfectly. Why wouldn't scum?

Right, because scum!me doctored faust. I'm such a genius mafia player, such a next level play.

Scum you doesn't go around saying "Hey guys! I'm scum!", does he? What's your argument again? That you've claimed to do something that scum you wouldn't do? And I'm arguing... *gasp*! That you didn't do what you claimed.

No you're not. You're not arguing anything coherent. I still am waiting to know what scum!me did at night in your scenario.

[Galzria]

Please carefully explain to me what I did last night if I'm scum, and why I did what I did today then.

You did nothing you goon. But town!You COULD have. Which made you claiming to have been unable to save Faust the perfect cover to try and reveal if Gkrieg is active. In the scenario where O is scum as well, it provides a backup claim to protect you if Gkrieg won't cooperate.

[Teproc]

Please carefully explain to me what I did last night if I'm scum, and why I did what I did today then.

You did nothing you goon. But town!You COULD have. Which made you claiming to have been unable to save Faust the perfect cover to try and reveal if Gkrieg is active. In the scenario where O is scum as well, it provides a backup claim to protect you if Gkrieg won't cooperate.

Alright so you think the scum team randomly picked one of their members to probe gkrieg ? Like... why ? It's so random, why would I have any expectation that gkrieg targeted me if he has that power, let alone answer me that he did ?

[Galzria]

Right... so the scum team picked me out of a hat to ask gkrieg that question, on the off chance that
a) he did target me
b) he'll claim it

?

Of course. Your supposed PR plays it perfectly. Why wouldn't scum?

Right, because scum!me doctored faust. I'm such a genius mafia player, such a next level play.

Scum you doesn't go around saying "Hey guys! I'm scum!", does he? What's your argument again? That you've claimed to do something that scum you wouldn't do? And I'm arguing... *gasp*! That you didn't do what you claimed.

No you're not. You're not arguing anything coherent. I still am waiting to know what scum!me did at night in your scenario.

Here, maybe reading it a second time will help you out:

Is Galz vla?

More that I'm enjoying my last few days off before work begins again on the 4th.

Sorry - I'm up to date on everything. I'll post thoughts and opinions tomorrow.

The odds that scum target Faust to kill, town!Teproc targets Faust to Doctor, and town!O targets Teproc to Roleblock seem pretty extreme. There's a lot of people in this game. And we must remember this IS classified as Normal, not Role Madness. So Joseph (PR) dies, passing his power to O (PR), who uses it on Teproc (PR), who targeted Faust. And in the midst of this, Mcmc and Robz have clearly claimed that Mcmc is a PR.

That's 4 PR's. And that all collides N1? Not impossible. But also reeeeeally not likely.

Starting at the back:

If O is scum and Teproc town:
- Then Teproc was blocked or redirected. Gkrieg could be in play here as a potential O partner, or O could've inherited Roleblocker. Killing one potential Doctor while blocking/redirecting another is a solid scum play.

If O is town and Teproc is scum:
- Then Teproc never intended (or couldn't) to try and save Faust. So why drag Gkrieg into this? Because he needed to know if the Oracle result got flipped. So he fake claimed the Doctor on Faust to try and get Gkrieg to spill beans. This points towards town!Gkrieg, as it's unlikely a play they're making together. The problem is... what if Gkrieg says he didn't redirect Teproc, and O claims to have not blocked anybody? That sets up a Teproc/O/Gkrieg lynch scenario because somebody must be lying. Which brings us to:

If O is scum AND Teproc is scum:
The play is to claim to have Doctored Faust (Teproc), trying to pull information from Gkrieg on if he's active or not. In the event Gkrieg refuses to respond or says he didn't redirect, O can come in and claim to have blocked Teproc. "I didn't know the roles" is an easy cover for O to make here to explain away a small detail.

And then there's Robz and Mcmc. Robz has read townie to me so far this game. Mcmc has not. I'm inclined to believe that Mcmc IS an active PR though, and unless he targeted Faust as well last night then there should be somebody else in game that can confirm that he is. It's quite possible they're both town. It's unlikely they're both scum. Right now I'm inclined to lynch neither of them.

From D1, I was town on Gkrieg, null-ish on O, and scummy on Teproc. Faust too found Teproc scummy, which says something as his reads are usually pretty good. I think with what's happened today I still prefer a vote: Teproc.

I don't believe that all of {Joseph, O, Teproc, Mcmc} are PR's. And given Joseph is confirmed town, I believe there's at least one scum amongst the remainder there. I don't believe lynching Mcmc makes sense today, and of the two remaining I find Teproc more suspicious.

[Robz888]

can we go back to more reasonable insane conspiracy theories, like my still yet to be disproven ashersky-robz lynch bait

I'm torn because I want to say under-the-radar-ash is scum!ash, but he's VLA-ish, so meh. Robz has been kinda townie today, too.

I'd be more inclined to lynch the people completely avoiding this whole conversation, like Swan or IDPTG.

Despite my willingness to hammer ashersky, yeah, I'm not actually reading him as scum at this point.

DS is very lurky, which is scummy, but it's so egregious at this point, him being an overwhelmed VT should also be strongly considered. IDP would be my preferred lynch here, I think my earlier suspicion is still valid.

[Robz888]

Also chairs has been criminally overlooked, and my case on mcmc still stands.

[Galzria]

Please carefully explain to me what I did last night if I'm scum, and why I did what I did today then.

You did nothing you goon. But town!You COULD have. Which made you claiming to have been unable to save Faust the perfect cover to try and reveal if Gkrieg is active. In the scenario where O is scum as well, it provides a backup claim to protect you if Gkrieg won't cooperate.

Alright so you think the scum team randomly picked one of their members to probe gkrieg ? Like... why ? It's so random, why would I have any expectation that gkrieg targeted me if he has that power, let alone answer me that he did ?

It's not random! You're not random! If you WERE town you could have had the ability to save him. That makes you a perfect claim to try and pull information from Gkrieg.

The argument is that you couldn't (no PR) or wouldn't (duh) actually doctor Faust. But claiming to have done so and failed means something is up. There are only two people that could cause this, and one of them, Gkrieg, is exactly the person scum wants to know about.

Why WOULDN'T you do this as scum?

[Teproc]

Right, but the chance of success is so low (it only works if gkrieg is a PR who targeted me), how is it even remotely close to being worth it ?

[Galzria]

can we go back to more reasonable insane conspiracy theories, like my still yet to be disproven ashersky-robz lynch bait

Robz, maybe. Ash, no.

[Teproc]

I also think we're overvaluing the Oracle, as historically these kinds of powers haven't been amazing.

[Galzria]

Right, but the chance of success is so low (it only works if gkrieg is a PR who targeted me), how is it even remotely close to being worth it ?

To that point, I've been meaning to switch to Vote: O.

As EFHW pointed out, in a "only one of you is scum" scenario, O is the more likely. I'm not as big a fan of the "only one" scenario because here scum needs to worry about EFHW tracking unless:

EFHW is scum
or
Gkrieg is scum and redirected EFHW.

But it's still more likely that only one of you is scum over both of you - and if it's both, O is still the better vote.

[EFHW]

Also I wasn't insulted in any personal manner. I just think your understanding of the odds in this game seems even worse than Galzria's, who at least could have a point with merit somewhere in there

No need to insult me, then, either.

[O]

Also I wasn't insulted in any personal manner. I just think your understanding of the odds in this game seems even worse than Galzria's, who at least could have a point with merit somewhere in there

No need to insult me, then, either.

i don't recall doing so

[O]

Right, but the chance of success is so low (it only works if gkrieg is a PR who targeted me), how is it even remotely close to being worth it ?

To that point, I've been meaning to switch to Vote: O.

As EFHW pointed out, in a "only one of you is scum" scenario, O is the more likely. I'm not as big a fan of the "only one" scenario because here scum needs to worry about EFHW tracking unless:

EFHW is scum
or
Gkrieg is scum and redirected EFHW.

But it's still more likely that only one of you is scum over both of you - and if it's both, O is still the better vote.

this is a far scummier vote now than if it was just placed after I admitted to roleblocking

[Galzria]

Right, but the chance of success is so low (it only works if gkrieg is a PR who targeted me), how is it even remotely close to being worth it ?

To that point, I've been meaning to switch to Vote: O.

As EFHW pointed out, in a "only one of you is scum" scenario, O is the more likely. I'm not as big a fan of the "only one" scenario because here scum needs to worry about EFHW tracking unless:

EFHW is scum
or
Gkrieg is scum and redirected EFHW.

But it's still more likely that only one of you is scum over both of you - and if it's both, O is still the better vote.

this is a far scummier vote now than if it was just placed after I admitted to roleblocking

Meh

[Galzria]

Is anybody prodable? I feel like there are many people not contributing right now.

Prod All eligible players.

[O]

Vote: Galzria

pretty bizarre galzria i've seen today. I think he smelled blood in the water and now is panicking when it didn't pan out

[Robz888]

Vote: Galzria

pretty bizarre galzria i've seen today. I think he smelled blood in the water and now is panicking when it didn't pan out

That might be.

[Galzria]

Vote: Galzria

pretty bizarre galzria i've seen today. I think he smelled blood in the water and now is panicking when it didn't pan out

Look everybody, I'm 2 for 2 on the scum buddies OMGUS'inh me. Quite entertaining.

[Galzria]

Vote: Galzria

pretty bizarre galzria i've seen today. I think he smelled blood in the water and now is panicking when it didn't pan out

That might be.

Panicking over... what? Exactly? O being at 4 votes and the leading wagon is an interesting definition of "not panning out".

[O]

Vote: Galzria

pretty bizarre galzria i've seen today. I think he smelled blood in the water and now is panicking when it didn't pan out

That might be.

Panicking over... what? Exactly? O being at 4 votes and the leading wagon is an interesting definition of "not panning out".

I wasn't even your primary lynch target. But despite being the leading wagon, I don't think I'm actually getting lynched today.

Panicking over the rejection of your rhetoric for what you thought would be an easy mislynch

[Robz888]

Vote: Galzria

pretty bizarre galzria i've seen today. I think he smelled blood in the water and now is panicking when it didn't pan out

That might be.

Panicking over... what? Exactly? O being at 4 votes and the leading wagon is an interesting definition of "not panning out".

Well, your Terpoc-O theory sort of came across as a bad and desperate attempt to keep your Teproc case alive.

[Robz888]

Right, what O said.

Don't think Galz is my favorite lynch, though I am conflicted.

[ashersky]

Just finished pag3 28, Dana, o scum.  Wo9.

[ashersky]

Scrolled down lab 28, poop on you gLz, I. Odder awesome modern comm with time, poop. You.

[O]

Sober up

unless you want to drunkclaim scum

[ashersky]

Pg 30, r9ba o Galz scum team surely poop.

[ashersky]

Cufh5 Up, stil” 9 scum! Lot ch.

[ashersky]

Lol, read that.  O scum. Lunch.

[ashersky]

ALS cool r9bl and Mcmc and Galz mo tepr9v.

[Galzria]

Vote: Galzria

pretty bizarre galzria i've seen today. I think he smelled blood in the water and now is panicking when it didn't pan out

That might be.

Panicking over... what? Exactly? O being at 4 votes and the leading wagon is an interesting definition of "not panning out".

I wasn't even your primary lynch target. But despite being the leading wagon, I don't think I'm actually getting lynched today.

Panicking over the rejection of your rhetoric for what you thought would be an easy mislynch

Rejected by you, and Teproc... surprise! Robz too, but that's not surprising. Everybody else that's been active has more or less been in agreement. We just need more of those people.

[ashersky]

A t9ce PPS Galz o.

[O]

Vote: Galzria

pretty bizarre galzria i've seen today. I think he smelled blood in the water and now is panicking when it didn't pan out

That might be.

Panicking over... what? Exactly? O being at 4 votes and the leading wagon is an interesting definition of "not panning out".

I wasn't even your primary lynch target. But despite being the leading wagon, I don't think I'm actually getting lynched today.

Panicking over the rejection of your rhetoric for what you thought would be an easy mislynch

Rejected by you, and Teproc... surprise! Robz too, but that's not surprising. Everybody else that's been active has more or less been in agreement. We just need more of those people.

nobody else has been active, Galz. Except MCMC. Who doesn't appear to agree with you.

This assumes we're ignoring Ashersky's "activity" of course

[Galzria]

Damn. I need an Ash to English dictionary. Don't think Google translate will work.

[ashersky]

I’d rTher be a lover than a fighter,

[ashersky]

I found peace in your violence

[ashersky]

Everyon3 should drinky

[Galzria]

Vote: Galzria

pretty bizarre galzria i've seen today. I think he smelled blood in the water and now is panicking when it didn't pan out

That might be.

Panicking over... what? Exactly? O being at 4 votes and the leading wagon is an interesting definition of "not panning out".

I wasn't even your primary lynch target. But despite being the leading wagon, I don't think I'm actually getting lynched today.

Panicking over the rejection of your rhetoric for what you thought would be an easy mislynch

Rejected by you, and Teproc... surprise! Robz too, but that's not surprising. Everybody else that's been active has more or less been in agreement. We just need more of those people.

nobody else has been active, Galz. Except MCMC. Who doesn't appear to agree with you.

This assumes we're ignoring Ashersky's "activity" of course

That's weird. Pretty sure I recall EFHW, Eevee, Gkrieg, DatSwan and Ashersky all being on you or Teproc.

[ashersky]

Oscum for sue.  Yes.

[Galzria]

Everyon3 should drinky

That's true.

[ashersky]

I can’t swim well.

[O]

Vote: Galzria

pretty bizarre galzria i've seen today. I think he smelled blood in the water and now is panicking when it didn't pan out

That might be.

Panicking over... what? Exactly? O being at 4 votes and the leading wagon is an interesting definition of "not panning out".

I wasn't even your primary lynch target. But despite being the leading wagon, I don't think I'm actually getting lynched today.

Panicking over the rejection of your rhetoric for what you thought would be an easy mislynch

Rejected by you, and Teproc... surprise! Robz too, but that's not surprising. Everybody else that's been active has more or less been in agreement. We just need more of those people.

nobody else has been active, Galz. Except MCMC. Who doesn't appear to agree with you.

This assumes we're ignoring Ashersky's "activity" of course

That's weird. Pretty sure I recall EFHW, Eevee, Gkrieg, DatSwan and Ashersky all being on you or Teproc.

Eevee and Datswan and Gkrieg all have negative post counts

[ashersky]

O scum dude.

[Galzria]

O scum dude.

Yeah, probably.

[Galzria]

Vote: Galzria

pretty bizarre galzria i've seen today. I think he smelled blood in the water and now is panicking when it didn't pan out

That might be.

Panicking over... what? Exactly? O being at 4 votes and the leading wagon is an interesting definition of "not panning out".

I wasn't even your primary lynch target. But despite being the leading wagon, I don't think I'm actually getting lynched today.

Panicking over the rejection of your rhetoric for what you thought would be an easy mislynch

Rejected by you, and Teproc... surprise! Robz too, but that's not surprising. Everybody else that's been active has more or less been in agreement. We just need more of those people.

nobody else has been active, Galz. Except MCMC. Who doesn't appear to agree with you.

This assumes we're ignoring Ashersky's "activity" of course

That's weird. Pretty sure I recall EFHW, Eevee, Gkrieg, DatSwan and Ashersky all being on you or Teproc.

Eevee and Datswan and Gkrieg all have negative post counts

And yet they're voting in the right places.

[ashersky]

FYI I& yo7 f9 5. El8rv3 I’m bdr7nk, listen8n* to Brian Wilson b7 bel on YouTube.

[Teproc]

Vote: Galzria

pretty bizarre galzria i've seen today. I think he smelled blood in the water and now is panicking when it didn't pan out

That might be.

Panicking over... what? Exactly? O being at 4 votes and the leading wagon is an interesting definition of "not panning out".

I wasn't even your primary lynch target. But despite being the leading wagon, I don't think I'm actually getting lynched today.

Panicking over the rejection of your rhetoric for what you thought would be an easy mislynch

Rejected by you, and Teproc... surprise! Robz too, but that's not surprising. Everybody else that's been active has more or less been in agreement. We just need more of those people.

Who are these people you mention ? Cause I haven't seen anyone agreeing with you... because your theory is nonsensical, as you've all but admitted yourself by retreating into scumteam theorizing.

[Teproc]

People voting O or me is not the same thing as agreeing with you... especially people like Swan or gkrieg who haven't posted in two days or something.

WHatever, this is not about winning an argument (because you know, there's no argument to be won here, you're just making random stuff up and seeing what sticks), it's about people taking the time to read the last five pages and voting Galz. So you know, do that people.

[Teproc]

To remind everyone, Galz's theory is something like:

I'm a Goon who decided to fakeclaim PR solely to cover the case where gkrieg targeted me so that I could get the info for my Oracle. O is probably my scumbuddy who "covered" for me by claiming roleblocker (instead of not doing so which would have made it me vs gkrieg, now by throwing himself in the mix it's two scum and a townie, what a brilliant plan).

Or maybe I'm town and O decided to claim truthfully... again just so that he could avoid the lynch being between me and gkrieg ? Because... what, gkrieg is his partner ? Actually Galz hasn't gone that route at all, but that's a thing I guess.

[Teproc]

I'm sure Galz will claim I'm misrepresenting him, but it's hard to know exactly what his theory is beyond "oh my god so many PRs they must be scum".

[Galzria]

I'm sure Galz will claim I'm misrepresenting him, but it's hard to know exactly what his theory is beyond "oh my god so many PRs they must be scum".

No, but I'm not going to be petty and write up asinine renditions of your "defenses". Everything is there and people can read it for themselves. There really isn't any point trying to debate scum about them being scum.

[gkrieg13]

Sorry. Going to get to this tomorrow. Family is gone but we are having friends come by on their cross country move so I have been getting the house ready for that.

[Archetype]

Vote Count 2.4

Teproc (2): gkrieg13, DatSwan
O (4): ashersky, EFHW, Eevee, Galzria
mcmcsalot (1): Robz888
Robz888 (2): chairs, mcmcsalot
Galzria (2): Teproc, O

Not Voting (1): IDontPlayThisGame
With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch. Day 2 will end January 8th at 7:00 PM

Is anybody prodable? I feel like there are many people not contributing right now.

Prod All eligible players.

Prods sent to chairs and DatSwan

[mcmcsalot]

Vote: Galzria

pretty bizarre galzria i've seen today. I think he smelled blood in the water and now is panicking when it didn't pan out

So still pretty behind but I can actually very much see a scenario where scum!robz planned during the night to come out with this case on me, he thinks he can get me lynched for discussing the dp thing and puts me as a pr. Once the case falls apart and town begins turning in robz (I believe many people were agreeing I was townie and robz case didn’t make a ton of sens) but instead of letting that play out scum!glaz artfully blew the thread up with his not only his theory about teproc/gkrieg/o but going so far as to respond and quote and repeat to every single point pushing us far far past he conversations early in the day.

Note still catching up the above O quote is where in at

[mcmcsalot]

Okay so caught up. I think agree with robz and o and teproc scum!teproc doesn’t do all of this just to learn about oracle. The only thing that works is scum!teproc A) tracked someone and failed so he knows he was blocked, or B) is scum with O. In A) scum!teproc Knows he was blocked but pretends somehow his doc failed and tries to put gkrieg while knowing o will eventually claim to have blocked him. In B) both teproc and o take way to much heat and I don’t believe they do it. O being lone scum makes no sense because he just wouldn’t say anything and let this play out. I don’t think he’s super afraid of tracker efhw.

Add in to all of this I thought teproc was towny day one I don’t think A is the case. I would much rather lynch robz who made the terrible case on me and was scummy yesterday. If robz flips scum I do think that paints galz in a scummy light. Also chairs has been like nowhere same with eevee.

[EFHW]

I agree that galz has seemed off. I don't think robz's case against you not doing well is much of a motivation for him to blow up the thread, but I'll go back and reread the day when I'm at a computer.

[EFHW]

So, I read it on my phone and Galz comes in because I asked if he was vla. Then he mistakenly posted his analysis when it sounds like he was intending to do it the next irl day. So the timing doesn't seem very informative as to motivation.

[EFHW]

He does seem scummy, but I don't think his flipping scum should implicate Robz.

[mcmcsalot]

He does seem scummy, but I don't think his flipping scum should implicate Robz.

No I don’t think his flipping scum would say much about robz alignment, rather I was thinking robz flipping scum would slightly implicate galz as scummy as it would mean galz’s tirade has the added benefit of distracting from what’s I felt to be a growing suspicion of robz.

This theory is not as strong as I thought when I said it though. I incorrectly remembered galz doing a similar thing to protect me from suspicion when we were scum together in pirates mafia but after some minor rereading of that game I don’t think that’s what happened so my “scum!galz likes to defend partners by plunging headlong into a new discussion and distancing from their suspicion” theory isn’t backed up by fact.

[mcmcsalot]

Efhw you are still voting o my apologies if it’s been stated recently but do you still find him scummy and if so what’s the short reason?

[EFHW]

I'm not convinced he's scum. My vote is still on him for rudeness. I'm thinking of moving to Galz. O's extreme defensiveness could be flailing scum, but I'm leaning towards reading it as outraged town.

[mcmcsalot]

I'm not convinced he's scum. My vote is still on him for rudeness. I'm thinking of moving to Galz. O's extreme defensiveness could be flailing scum, but I'm leaning towards reading it as outraged town.

Understandable, for what it’s worth I didn’t read anything out of the ordinary in his tone nor an intention of rudeness.

What are you thoughts on eevee? I’ve found it very hard to formulate any read in him as Andrew was on exsistant and it feels eevee has slipped into a similar pattern. I should do a quick reread of him.

[EFHW]

Feels like town!Eevee to me, but that is a light impression.

[mcmcsalot]

Feels like town!Eevee to me, but that is a light impression.

Yea I did that reread, unfortunately nothing much came up. He felt scummy in robz and townie on me day one, townie end of day where he agreed with me about gkrieg and did try to get that lynch through as opposed to Joseph (this while robz sat at 5 on Joseph, not willing to join eevee, myself and teproc despite voicing how mush gkrieg flip would help inform him of my role). His flipped reads of me and robz earlier today seemed a natural reaction to robz case, not forced. So yea seems like just a relatively low active(possibly due to jumping in) town!eevee. Townie of him as well to declare he didn’t shoot Faust, it’s the type of posts that if you Only have time to mention something briefly are at least informative.

[IDontPlayThisGame]

vote: ash

I've seen drunk typing and that's not that.

[ashersky]

What’s my motivation for faking it?

I definitely was typing fast and not correcting things on purpose — pretty funny upon review. 

But really, what’s the benefit to acting?  I’m curious to know.

[IDontPlayThisGame]

What’s my motivation for faking it?

I definitely was typing fast and not correcting things on purpose — pretty funny upon review. 

But really, what’s the benefit to acting?  I’m curious to know.

No idea, but I don't understand half of what you do. You mentioned wanting to be the D1 lynch if Robz hammered. Do you still feel that way?

[O]

I'm not convinced he's scum. My vote is still on him for rudeness. I'm thinking of moving to Galz. O's extreme defensiveness could be flailing scum, but I'm leaning towards reading it as outraged town.

Saying this entirely independently of game events -- I honestly don't know which part is the part that was rude to you, so I can't apologize very easily for it. Most of the flourish of my posts is written entirely facetiously, since that's the persona I had on this forum when I was younger.

If it's the "bastardization of proof" or "truly amazing deductive skills" none of that was intended to be serious at all in tone, or personally aimed at you (more aimed at post-event rationalization in general that happens on F.DS) and i'm sorry if it was poorly executed.

[O]

i don't see why Ash would fake the drunk typing.

[Teproc]

@IDPTG: Any thoughts on the whole me/O/gkrieg thing (and on Galz while you're at it) ? What about Robe v mcmc ?

[chairs]

Posting to acknowledge my existence.

[Robz888]

i don't see why Ash would fake the drunk typing.

Well I don't either. But I really don't understand what he's doing, even by ash standards. He's had very little to say most of the game--his longest period of activity was completely incoherent. But he's clearly around, the second IDP says something about him, he appears to defend himself.

I have seen ash do weird and somewhat off-putting things on purpose as scum, though.

[gkrieg13]

I guess I do have to agree with Teproc that the  lynchpool for today needs to be {gkrieg, O, Teproc}, unless someone can think of another way faust could have died. Maybe add in Eevee  if scum used his one vig shot to double kill faust. Doubtful but theoretically possible.

This is scummy from EFHW.  trying to make the lynchpool smaller before we had even heard from O is bad.

[gkrieg13]

Mcmc, how would you describe the course of your chats with Robz?

I was enthusiastic to discuss reads. I did analyze his role and discuss the idea that because the setup allows for one no lynch (if 3 scum one no lynch keeps the same number of number of potential mislynches) it might be a good idea for town to burn robz potential 1-shot death proof. If town it’s a Good Power, if scum it’s an insanely strong Power that a fact. Add in what I said about no lynches, burning a town!robz 1sdp doesn’t change the number of potential mislynches we can do. That paranoid him reasonably so but as far as my read thoughts, he felt forced and overly concerned about my alignment. It came across to me as “I have to be wary of your alignment to seem like I don’t know you are town”. I am fully aware that could be because we have both taken some games off but truly it felt forced. That led to my scum read on him growing as the day went on.

The idea of burning his deathproof would obviously not be well-received by town!Robz.  He picked that role for a reason, and no one wants their role to be wasted, especially when it is just wasted for not a very good reason.  Scum also has a good reason to want town!Robz to not have his deathproof.  Robz can be a player with good reads and able to convince town that his reads are correct.

[gkrieg13]

I mean, yeah, maybe O will come in and say he's a roleblocker and he targeted me and maybe he's town and just did a dumb thing and I outed him and me for nothing. But also gkrieg is just scummy, so we can lynch him even if that happens.

How have I been scummy?  Is it still because of the ash thing?

That’s early d1 stuff, however your pushing of the Joseph wagon which is now a confirmed town makes your late day 1 play scummy.

Time to reread some things.

Why does that make me scummy?  Pushing a lynch that I feel strongly about says nothing about my alignment.  I don't bus that often, so I can understand that pushing a scum wagon D1 would give you a town read on me, but I often am wrong D1, and I often have opinions D1.  The fact that Joseph got lynched means we know I pushed a town wagon, but I know that people pushing my wagon were also pushing a town wagon, so should I find those people scummy?

[gkrieg13]

Scum!Teproc could be saying he was roleblocked to cover for not having protected faust.

So I’ve been mulling this idea over as well and my thoughts have rested on this. Teproc was not under much suspicion yesterday, many people finding him townie, scum!teproc gains from this a potential mislynch of town!gkrieg who could be inactive or even worse gkrieg could have taken an action that is provable (redirecting me for example). Scum!teproc would not be under any suspicion for not doctoring Faust because without him bringing this up likely no one would push for him to reveal if he is even active.

Scum!gkrieg has strong insentive to redirect town!teproc onto a vanilla scum who took no action last night. If teproc doctors it protect the vanilla scum from a potential vig shot and if he is tracking someone he sees nothing. The risk there is if town!teproc tracked someone who took an action and teproc became aware of that, gkrieg would be completely caught. I think here it’s just a case of risk assessment and it was more likely teproc doctored then tracked, and it’s unlikely he becomes aware his track target took an action.

The presence of O throws a wrench into all of this as it increases the chance both scum!teproc and scum!gkrieg do the things described above. For scum!teproc, if we lynch gkrieg who flips town he can tomorrow say well o must have blocked me. For scum!gkrieg similarly when town!teprocs action fails he can say it wasn’t me must have been O. On a balance note, I doubt O is both scum and active. A scum UB varies wildly in how much it can help or hurt scum (gaining a vig adds kill power, gaining a death proof adds literal lynch numbers vs. gaining a weak cop or tracker who need to be lying about results and potentially clearing townies)

All that being said combined with my scum read of gkrieg yesterday, combined with him being a primary proponent of the awful Joseph lynch, combined with robz who is a scum read of mine voting gkrieg only briefly yesterday (because of my great ability to catch scum!gkrieg in his words) and then ditching that vote to move to Joseph I am pretty happy leaving my vote on gkrieg.

This case on me is horrible.  It uses theoretical things (my night action), with the fact that I was behind a mislynch (not alignment indicative), with a vote from someone who is unconfirmed, with something that mcmc also did (vote Joseph to get a lynch through).  Scum are more likely to get on a mislynch at the end of the day instead of drive it for the entire day.

[gkrieg13]

I'm behind a page, but a thought just occured to me: I'm pretty suspicious of people who are pushing for lynches based on (potential) roles instead of reads.

This pretty well captures my thoughts.

[gkrieg13]

I blocked Teproc. Blocking all non-killing actions seemed like the most anti-town ability in the game, and I didn't think redirector would have a high usage or success rate D1.

This is obviously a shitty outcome, assuming Teproc is telling the truth... pretty low odds that I block a successful doctor shot D1...

Oh, I had misread this initially when I was following the thread before.  I thought he said that he didn't block Teproc.  The ellipses give me a slight scum read on O.

[gkrieg13]

I blocked Teproc. Blocking all non-killing actions seemed like the most anti-town ability in the game, and I didn't think redirector would have a high usage or success rate D1.

This is obviously a shitty outcome, assuming Teproc is telling the truth... pretty low odds that I block a successful doctor shot D1...

It's not really low odds. He was the only one with a potential doctor power. Did you have a scum read on him for some reason?

Nah, faust was the main potential doctor.

But faust couldn't protect himself and was a very likely nk target. Teproc was the only dr who could protect faust.

The chance of a doctor actually saving someone N1 is incredibly low.

[gkrieg13]

I don't believe that all of {Joseph, O, Teproc, Mcmc} are PR's. And given Joseph is confirmed town, I believe there's at least one scum amongst the remainder there. I don't believe lynching Mcmc makes sense today, and of the two remaining I find Teproc more suspicious.

I'm assuming you mean if all 4 are town?

[gkrieg13]

vote: Galz

How is any of this unlikely ? There are only 2 PRs being claimed here (myself and O). I guess there's mcmc too, that's 3... how is that even close to RMM ? You including Joseph in this is ludicrous since Joseph has flipped... there being 4 PRs in a 13-player game (including O who may very well be scum claiming entirely truthfully) is nowhere near RMM or unbelievable. But you know that, so I can only assume this incredibly forced line of reasoning is not genuine because you're scum.

I agree with Teproc here, but I definitely don't think it makes galz scummy.  Galz's analysis was wrong, but not scummy wrong.  This feels like strong OMGUS to me.

[gkrieg13]

I think the point is that it's pretty unlikely for all these pr's to interact like you (plural) claim they have. Much simpler explanation is that someone's lying.

It's maybe unlikely there are so many PR's, but O blocking Teproc's doctor shot is not long odds at all. O knew he was roleblocker, so the chances of that are not relevant. He knew, I presume, that faust would be the most likely nk, so that's not long odds. Teproc was the only one with possible power to protect faust. His ascetic power was not that dangerous to town - who did O think Teproc would be targeting?

O brought up long odds as part of his defense. But it isn't really a defense in my mind at all. It makes me suspicious when people try to persuade me with illogical arguments.

O: Who did you think Teproc would target?

Galz: I followed your what ifs for the different combination of scum/town O/Teproc, but I'm wondering why you ended up on Teproc. The town!O/scum!Teproc combination didn't work, whereas all the scum!O scenarios seem plausible.

vote: O

I think you are generalizing things a little too much here.  Mainly that faust was the most likely night kill, and that Teproc would choose to doctor him.  Although the fact that it did actually happen that way means that it was more likely than I was giving it credit for.  But still, the likelihood of that all happening, and roleblocking the doctor that had an opportunity to doctor faust seems a little unlikely. If I had a 1-shot Doctor, I would certainly not use it N1.

[gkrieg13]

I don't agree, I think O's actions make lots of sense for town!O, right down to not understanding what ascetic does.

Galz's case on Teproc confuses the heck out of me. It seems pretty clear to me, bordering on inarguable, that gkrieg/Teproc/O/mcmc all have the powers they claim they had, and all did what they say they did. I'm venturing a guess that the O/Teproc thing is a giant town on town debacle, with gkrieg's refusal to claim making sense for town!him as well (why me pointing this out made Teproc think I'm scum I don't quite understand, but it doesn't make me read Teproc as scum).

I don't really know what to think of Galz, alignment wise, I've got a big null read on him. He could be scum. I'm worried he's calling the me/mcmc situation correctly because he's trying to buddy me. On the other hand, maybe he's calling it right because he's town and he's reading things correctly. That's what I want it to be!

Still confident on my mcmc case. I could also lynch somewhere in the chairs or DatSwan department, those guys are lurking.

I could go mcmc.  Teproc's night actions don't make much sense for him as scum unless he really did the tracking instead of the doctoring and wanted to get PRs to claim so that he can kill them later.  But his OMGUS on galz was pretty scummy.  There has been lots of activity though, so i could definitely see scum in one of the lurkers.

[gkrieg13]

I think the point is that it's pretty unlikely for all these pr's to interact like you (plural) claim they have. Much simpler explanation is that someone's lying.

It's maybe unlikely there are so many PR's, but O blocking Teproc's doctor shot is not long odds at all. O knew he was roleblocker, so the chances of that are not relevant. He knew, I presume, that faust would be the most likely nk, so that's not long odds. Teproc was the only one with possible power to protect faust. His ascetic power was not that dangerous to town - who did O think Teproc would be targeting?

O brought up long odds as part of his defense. But it isn't really a defense in my mind at all. It makes me suspicious when people try to persuade me with illogical arguments.

O: Who did you think Teproc would target?

Galz: I followed your what ifs for the different combination of scum/town O/Teproc, but I'm wondering why you ended up on Teproc. The town!O/scum!Teproc combination didn't work, whereas all the scum!O scenarios seem plausible.

vote: O

You claim that town!O should have known this was a likely outcome. This assumes prior knowledge that

1) Faust is town (I scumread Faust)
2) Teproc is town (I scumread Teproc)
3) Teproc is a PR
4) Scum fear doctor over tracker (which is wrong, IMO) or that tracker is scum (oh hey look)
5) No other PR interrupts this flow

You assume that I should make two assumptions about alignment that completely contradict the reads I made yesterday.

You also assume I should default think all of this when I learned I was Roleblocker only the night of, in the middle of holiday season


Beyond that, there's some odd circular logic in what you're proposing. You claim it was obvious to me that Teproc would Doctor Faust, and that scum would NK Faust, and that I'm lying about the low odds in my mind. You then claim that implies I'm scum. Why would I run such a ridiculously stupid gambit, putting myself in the hotseat like that? If was as omniscient as you claim, it would be clear to me that blocking Teproc would either be useless or would be net harmful. There's loads of WIFOM in your argument in that I'm smart enough to make all the deductions which you have so brilliantly made after the fact (truly amazing deductive skills)... but not smart enough to keep myself out of the hotseat after making those deductions.


Actually I have another theory -- that you aren't considering the alignment assumptions you make in your analysis because you know their alignments.


P.S.:
my math major background cries at the bastardization of the meaning of the words "logical" and "illogical" that you perpetuate.

Kind of what I was trying to say earlier, but a little differently stated.

[gkrieg13]

vote: Galz

How is any of this unlikely ? There are only 2 PRs being claimed here (myself and O). I guess there's mcmc too, that's 3... how is that even close to RMM ? You including Joseph in this is ludicrous since Joseph has flipped... there being 4 PRs in a 13-player game (including O who may very well be scum claiming entirely truthfully) is nowhere near RMM or unbelievable. But you know that, so I can only assume this incredibly forced line of reasoning is not genuine because you're scum.

My point, as Eevee noted, is that it's highly unlikely that:

{Joseph, Teproc, O, Mcmc} are all PR's
&
{Joseph, Teproc, O, Faust!NK} all collided NIGHT 1
&
{Joseph, Teproc, O, Mcmc} are all town

----------

What it boils down to is that I don't believe that all 4 of you are both {PR, Town}. As the entire series of events surrounding Faust's kill are highly suspect {Joseph dies -> O Inherits PR -> O Blocks Teproc -> Teproc fails to Doctor Faust -> Scum kill Faust), I'm more inclined to lynch between you and O than Mcmc (who, at a very least, can have his PR confirmed). I scum read you more than O, but that's not to say I find O townie. If people would prefer I'm good with that lynch too.

Makes sense, disregard my previous statement to you

[gkrieg13]

Galz being frustrated scum would make me even more confident Teproc/O/gkrieg are all town, because that's something that could frustrate him, realizing all these townies have PRs. It undercuts my scum!mcmc read a bit though, because to be fair he would belong in that list too. Hmm.

The most unlikely thing of all is that you (Galz) would make this crappy an argument.

So, you know, lynch Galz, people.

Yes, people, do. And when Galz flips yet another town PR you can all realize what idiots you've been and go back and MAYBE salvage this game by lynching Teproc/O.

Or, you know, maybe you can realize that my arguments against the unlikely nature of ALL these players being town and PR's are because I myself am a town PR and this is a NORMAL game, so with 13 players alive there aren't freaking 5 Town PR's - and all this crap with Teproc and O is ridiculously unlikely to begin with!

Well, claiming waaaaaaaaaay too early is actually a very town!Galz thing to do. (I remember watching his insanely premature candidate claim in Lost Mafia.)

Scum Galz does the same thing. Don't artificially assign town points places they don't belong to make yourself seem more reasonable.

Was just about to come here and say this.  There is no reason for Galz not to claim as either alignment at this point.  It gives some credibility to his argument as either scum knowing that Teproc/O are both town, and as town thinking that Teproc/O has a scum in it.

[gkrieg13]

It seems like fancy play syndrome to me, for scum partners O and Teproc to do this.

I agree with this with respect to Galz's theory on Teproc/O team.

[gkrieg13]

I guess you'd say I used Tracker and somehow knew I got interferred with ? That assumes scum!me is using Tracker instead of the safe play (Ascetic kill), AND that I got to know my tracking was interferred with, which isn't that easy.

To be fair, you could've ascetic killed, then claimed to have doctored faust, but I agree with you that it isn't very likely.

[gkrieg13]

can we go back to more reasonable insane conspiracy theories, like my still yet to be disproven ashersky-robz lynch bait

I'm torn because I want to say under-the-radar-ash is scum!ash, but he's VLA-ish, so meh. Robz has been kinda townie today, too.

I'd be more inclined to lynch the people completely avoiding this whole conversation, like Swan or IDPTG.

Why don't you include chairs?

[gkrieg13]

Please carefully explain to me what I did last night if I'm scum, and why I did what I did today then.

You did nothing you goon. But town!You COULD have. Which made you claiming to have been unable to save Faust the perfect cover to try and reveal if Gkrieg is active. In the scenario where O is scum as well, it provides a backup claim to protect you if Gkrieg won't cooperate.

I think you are putting too much stock into getting the result of their oracle right.  Oracle isn't amazing, it is just OK.

[gkrieg13]

Vote: Galzria

pretty bizarre galzria i've seen today. I think he smelled blood in the water and now is panicking when it didn't pan out

Look everybody, I'm 2 for 2 on the scum buddies OMGUS'inh me. Quite entertaining.

I'm very confused why you are so worked up about all of this.

[gkrieg13]

Vote: Galzria

pretty bizarre galzria i've seen today. I think he smelled blood in the water and now is panicking when it didn't pan out

That might be.

Panicking over... what? Exactly? O being at 4 votes and the leading wagon is an interesting definition of "not panning out".

I wasn't even your primary lynch target. But despite being the leading wagon, I don't think I'm actually getting lynched today.

Panicking over the rejection of your rhetoric for what you thought would be an easy mislynch

Rejected by you, and Teproc... surprise! Robz too, but that's not surprising. Everybody else that's been active has more or less been in agreement. We just need more of those people.

I didn't get the feeling that everyone else that has been active has been in agreement.

[gkrieg13]

Vote: Galzria

pretty bizarre galzria i've seen today. I think he smelled blood in the water and now is panicking when it didn't pan out

That might be.

Panicking over... what? Exactly? O being at 4 votes and the leading wagon is an interesting definition of "not panning out".

I wasn't even your primary lynch target. But despite being the leading wagon, I don't think I'm actually getting lynched today.

Panicking over the rejection of your rhetoric for what you thought would be an easy mislynch

Rejected by you, and Teproc... surprise! Robz too, but that's not surprising. Everybody else that's been active has more or less been in agreement. We just need more of those people.

nobody else has been active, Galz. Except MCMC. Who doesn't appear to agree with you.

This assumes we're ignoring Ashersky's "activity" of course

That's weird. Pretty sure I recall EFHW, Eevee, Gkrieg, DatSwan and Ashersky all being on you or Teproc.

Eevee and Datswan and Gkrieg all have negative post counts

I was also already voting for Teproc before.

[gkrieg13]

Okay so caught up. I think agree with robz and o and teproc scum!teproc doesn’t do all of this just to learn about oracle. The only thing that works is scum!teproc A) tracked someone and failed so he knows he was blocked, or B) is scum with O. In A) scum!teproc Knows he was blocked but pretends somehow his doc failed and tries to put gkrieg while knowing o will eventually claim to have blocked him. In B) both teproc and o take way to much heat and I don’t believe they do it. O being lone scum makes no sense because he just wouldn’t say anything and let this play out. I don’t think he’s super afraid of tracker efhw.

Add in to all of this I thought teproc was towny day one I don’t think A is the case. I would much rather lynch robz who made the terrible case on me and was scummy yesterday. If robz flips scum I do think that paints galz in a scummy light. Also chairs has been like nowhere same with eevee.

What about the case he made on you was terrible?

[gkrieg13]

He does seem scummy, but I don't think his flipping scum should implicate Robz.

No I don’t think his flipping scum would say much about robz alignment, rather I was thinking robz flipping scum would slightly implicate galz as scummy as it would mean galz’s tirade has the added benefit of distracting from what’s I felt to be a growing suspicion of robz.

This theory is not as strong as I thought when I said it though. I incorrectly remembered galz doing a similar thing to protect me from suspicion when we were scum together in pirates mafia but after some minor rereading of that game I don’t think that’s what happened so my “scum!galz likes to defend partners by plunging headlong into a new discussion and distancing from their suspicion” theory isn’t backed up by fact.

Can you point me to the growing suspicion of Robz?  I was just rereading and didn't get that vibe.  I got the vibe of a growing suspicion of O, and a growing suspicion of galz, but not of Robz.

[gkrieg13]

vote: ash

I've seen drunk typing and that's not that.

Really?  That is what you choose to comment on?  vote: IDPTG

[gkrieg13]

Ok, well I now have to go finish yard work and general clean up.  I'll try to be around more later today though.

[gkrieg13]

Oh, forgot to post these reads.

Galz - Pretty null.  He is holding on to this conspiracy theory that he has, even when it doesn't make the most sense.  It is either tunneling O/Teproc because they are town, or he is just holding on to a conspiracy theory (I think I more often do that as town).  So maybe on the townie side of null.

O - The way he claimed was townie, especially because scum!O would've known I was town, and wouldn't have saved me (having to worry about EFHW as a tracker doesn't seem like that big of a deal).

Teproc - his reactions and defenses have been scummy, but I'm not sure I get why he does what he did as scum, except as an attempt to get town points if both he and O are scum.  They may have figured that their role interactions would give town points to Teproc, and not have as bad an impact on O.  But still, he is pretty 50/50 for me.  The way he came out accusing me of redirection and not considering being roleblocked is townie, I think, but the OMGUS of galzria is pretty scummy IMO.

EFHW - It seems like she is trying to paint O as scum a little too hard, using probability stuff that I don't completely agree with

Robz - Everything he has done so far makes sense to me.  Townie.

Mcmcsalot - He is scummy to me.  He is disregarding cases on himself without really defending them and his case on me wasn't good, considering the amount he has been tunneling me.  The fact that he still wants to continue to tunnel me when I have had townie reactions to Teproc today is scummy. 

IDPTG - commenting on ash instead of everything else is scummy.

ash - still on the townie side, but that read got much less strong after his last few comments, with not really being invested in the game.  I would expect town!ash to be tunneling someone at this point.

Everyone else, I don't remember enough, and would gladly lynch.

[mcmcsalot]

He does seem scummy, but I don't think his flipping scum should implicate Robz.

No I don’t think his flipping scum would say much about robz alignment, rather I was thinking robz flipping scum would slightly implicate galz as scummy as it would mean galz’s tirade has the added benefit of distracting from what’s I felt to be a growing suspicion of robz.

This theory is not as strong as I thought when I said it though. I incorrectly remembered galz doing a similar thing to protect me from suspicion when we were scum together in pirates mafia but after some minor rereading of that game I don’t think that’s what happened so my “scum!galz likes to defend partners by plunging headlong into a new discussion and distancing from their suspicion” theory isn’t backed up by fact.

Can you point me to the growing suspicion of Robz?  I was just rereading and didn't get that vibe.  I got the vibe of a growing suspicion of O, and a growing suspicion of galz, but not of Robz.

I guess I can answer both your questions at once, robz case on me was bad because its literally "mcmc tried to get me to reveal if I am dp or not" which is factually completely inacurate as I have laid out because I was merely pointing out the statistical advantages of confirming no scum dp exists while not losing any mislynches while gaining a night of results to deal with instead of a day one Lynch based of nothing because we had two players quit and more being inactive. Also the theory that as scum I brashly come up with a plan to get robz to disclose if he is death proof instead of just try and get him mislynched or use the oracle shot.

The growing suspicion of robz may be less than I though but it felt like after my defense and explaination of what I said to robz and why most people did not think it was a good case and that robz was slightly scummy for A) proposing it and B) outing me as a pr for no reason. if he is town that was kinda unnecessary and crappy.

[EFHW]

I'm not convinced he's scum. My vote is still on him for rudeness. I'm thinking of moving to Galz. O's extreme defensiveness could be flailing scum, but I'm leaning towards reading it as outraged town.

Saying this entirely independently of game events -- I honestly don't know which part is the part that was rude to you, so I can't apologize very easily for it. Most of the flourish of my posts is written entirely facetiously, since that's the persona I had on this forum when I was younger.

If it's the "bastardization of proof" or "truly amazing deductive skills" none of that was intended to be serious at all in tone, or personally aimed at you (more aimed at post-event rationalization in general that happens on F.DS) and i'm sorry if it was poorly executed.

Ok, thank you.

[IDontPlayThisGame]

@IDPTG: Any thoughts on the whole me/O/gkrieg thing (and on Galz while you're at it) ? What about Robe v mcmc ?

I think a gkrieg flip tells us a lot, but I don"t think that's a reason to lynch him. Not sure what I think if you yet. As for O, I've scumread people in the past for getting set-ups as wrong as this Ascetic deal, but it's never panned out well so I'm inclined to think it's town!O.

As for Robz vs mcmc, I think mcmc is the townier of the two, but it's not a super strong read.

[IDontPlayThisGame]

That said, I think scum!mcmc flipping would also be rather informative.

[Robz888]

Want to lynch: Mcmc

Would lynch: IDP, Galz, chairs

Null: DS, ash

Leaning town: EFHW, gkrieg, Teproc, O, Eevee

[mcmcsalot]

Wait datswan is still in this game good god. Need to do a post count soon. Just for my sanity.

[Swowl]

I am back as of this morning. Holidays hit harder than I expected. Will do the whatever posts in a sec here  and be around going forward.

[Swowl]

5 town PRs would not be RMM. You played Lost Mafia and M100 which were closer to RMM than this would be, but I guess that's another discussion. The RMM-y thing here is that there are multiple possibilities for redirection, but again: not really the time and place for that discussion I think.

Also, yeah, O could be scum. mcmc could be scum too. I don't see that the fact that they're claiming PRs makes them more likely than anyone else to be.

Yes this 100%. Even in like the normal JK+ or C9+ or whatever it is, you can easily get 5 town PRs out of 13.

Galz seems to be making an argument for what he'd like the setup to be, rather than what it clearly is. This does strike me as a frustrated scum thing, more often than not.

I was 100% convinced Robz was town until I read this post.

[Swowl]

5 town PRs would not be RMM. You played Lost Mafia and M100 which were closer to RMM than this would be, but I guess that's another discussion. The RMM-y thing here is that there are multiple possibilities for redirection, but again: not really the time and place for that discussion I think.

Also, yeah, O could be scum. mcmc could be scum too. I don't see that the fact that they're claiming PRs makes them more likely than anyone else to be.

Yes this 100%. Even in like the normal JK+ or C9+ or whatever it is, you can easily get 5 town PRs out of 13.

Galz seems to be making an argument for what he'd like the setup to be, rather than what it clearly is. This does strike me as a frustrated scum thing, more often than not.

You've evaded my question every time. Good job.

lol you are like the last person on the planet that should get to say that. Maybe with the exception of Awaclus...

[Robz888]

5 town PRs would not be RMM. You played Lost Mafia and M100 which were closer to RMM than this would be, but I guess that's another discussion. The RMM-y thing here is that there are multiple possibilities for redirection, but again: not really the time and place for that discussion I think.

Also, yeah, O could be scum. mcmc could be scum too. I don't see that the fact that they're claiming PRs makes them more likely than anyone else to be.

Yes this 100%. Even in like the normal JK+ or C9+ or whatever it is, you can easily get 5 town PRs out of 13.

Galz seems to be making an argument for what he'd like the setup to be, rather than what it clearly is. This does strike me as a frustrated scum thing, more often than not.

I was 100% convinced Robz was town until I read this post.

Why were you convinced I was town, and why did this remark change your mind?

[gkrieg13]

@IDPTG: Any thoughts on the whole me/O/gkrieg thing (and on Galz while you're at it) ? What about Robe v mcmc ?

I think a gkrieg flip tells us a lot, but I don"t think that's a reason to lynch him. Not sure what I think if you yet. As for O, I've scumread people in the past for getting set-ups as wrong as this Ascetic deal, but it's never panned out well so I'm inclined to think it's town!O.

As for Robz vs mcmc, I think mcmc is the townier of the two, but it's not a super strong read.

Why does my flip give a lot of information compared to other people?

[Swowl]

I found peace in your violence

Marshmello!

[Swowl]

OK I am essentially done, and I will post up all the stuff shortly to follow. Two things are for certain:

1) Galz should not get lynched today.
2) There is Skum in Robz, MCMC, Teproc, O

[IDontPlayThisGame]

@IDPTG: Any thoughts on the whole me/O/gkrieg thing (and on Galz while you're at it) ? What about Robe v mcmc ?

I think a gkrieg flip tells us a lot, but I don"t think that's a reason to lynch him. Not sure what I think if you yet. As for O, I've scumread people in the past for getting set-ups as wrong as this Ascetic deal, but it's never panned out well so I'm inclined to think it's town!O.

As for Robz vs mcmc, I think mcmc is the townier of the two, but it's not a super strong read.

Why does my flip give a lot of information compared to other people?

In my opinion, (assuming you're active and are using your shots) the alignment of the possible redirection clarifies some of the results that have been discussed today.

[O]

@IDPTG: Any thoughts on the whole me/O/gkrieg thing (and on Galz while you're at it) ? What about Robe v mcmc ?

I think a gkrieg flip tells us a lot, but I don"t think that's a reason to lynch him. Not sure what I think if you yet. As for O, I've scumread people in the past for getting set-ups as wrong as this Ascetic deal, but it's never panned out well so I'm inclined to think it's town!O.

As for Robz vs mcmc, I think mcmc is the townier of the two, but it's not a super strong read.

Why does my flip give a lot of information compared to other people?

In my opinion, (assuming you're active and are using your shots) the alignment of the possible redirection clarifies some of the results that have been discussed today.

i dont see how the results of today change...

[mcmcsalot]

OK I am essentially done, and I will post up all the stuff shortly to follow. Two things are for certain:

1) Galz should not get lynched today.
2) There is Skum in Robz, MCMC, Teproc, O

Ooo I so glad you came back, I agree wholeheartedly! You should vote though I don’t think you are.

[Swowl]

OK I am essentially done, and I will post up all the stuff shortly to follow. Two things are for certain:

1) Galz should not get lynched today.
2) There is Skum in Robz, MCMC, Teproc, O

Ooo I so glad you came back, I agree wholeheartedly! You should vote though I don’t think you are.

99% sure I am on Tep

[mcmcsalot]

Yooooohoooooo where is everyone, drunk ama

Still getting to that post count and there will be scolding

Ppe: sure about what yoda?

[Swowl]

5 town PRs would not be RMM. You played Lost Mafia and M100 which were closer to RMM than this would be, but I guess that's another discussion. The RMM-y thing here is that there are multiple possibilities for redirection, but again: not really the time and place for that discussion I think.

Also, yeah, O could be scum. mcmc could be scum too. I don't see that the fact that they're claiming PRs makes them more likely than anyone else to be.

Yes this 100%. Even in like the normal JK+ or C9+ or whatever it is, you can easily get 5 town PRs out of 13.

Galz seems to be making an argument for what he'd like the setup to be, rather than what it clearly is. This does strike me as a frustrated scum thing, more often than not.

I was 100% convinced Robz was town until I read this post.

Why were you convinced I was town, and why did this remark change your mind?

I should moderately rephrase: I was "as convinced as I could be at this point that you were town". And that is just based off the same as reads I have on anyone, your interactions seemed of that of a Town Player (specifically in regards to your interactions with MCMC). I also believe that if I was playing with a Twin Claim and I had MCMC's role as skum, I would def NZ my twin N0 if possible. All that being said, I still am not saying I think you are skum, just less sure of town. And the reason is because I disagree with the statement. Not saying you are wrong and I am right for sure, it is def a matter of opinion, but I assume Town frustration on set ups more often than the other way around.

[Robz888]

Not saying you are wrong and I am right for sure, it is def a matter of opinion, but I assume Town frustration on set ups more often than the other way around.

Well, scum!Galz and scum!ashersky were pretty frustrated with the Hammer Hero setup problem in Mafia 100.

[Swowl]

Keeping it brief...

Stuff from earlier in the game:

1) Robz and MCMC - You are both town... I think...but either way just stop. I don't think anyone cares about what you are saying in your side thread so either just say it in here or keep the door shut on it. Or don't, whatever, but if you are town you should appreciate that all you are doing is diverting attention from important stuff at this time. I think they are both Town. If we live in a world where one has to be skum, I guess Robz, but I don't think we live in that world.
---@ MCMC: question that was asked that I did not see the answer for (could of missed it).... why in the holy hell would you NZ your brobro N0?---

2) Night Actions (I think I got this right):
- Teproc used 1 shot doc on Faust
- But Faust died
- Because O used his inherited RB power on Teproc?
   ...So yeah, on one hand I agree with the mindset of "too convoluted to be made up", but on the other I do smell a little "too good to be true" here as well. It kind of just comes down to O using the RB on Teproc thing. Last game I played in this situation I was way off on my assumptions so that could just be the case, but just the whole thing seems off. That being said imo the mis reading of the Ascetic thing seems towny.

3) Just throwing this in here. We should not forget about the Ash Bowser claim at the end yadda yadda thing.

Newer Stuff:

1) Return of the Galz
- He was super quiet for a while (although I can speak to him being on Vacation, and a well deserved one at that). But still, quiet is weird. FWIW last time I played with him and quiet was weird he died N1 and was the Mother of all Awesome Role for town and it lost them the game. Not saying it has to be the same (I have never actually played a game with Skum!Galz) but worth mentioning.
- This part is weird. His responses are wayyyyy different then usual. I am not going to waste my breathe explaining how that is true, I am sure everyone has noticed it.
- No one cares about whether the game set up is fair or not, or whatever classified correctly or not. I cannot possibly see what you gain from opening a convo in game on that topic so I would suggest steering clear of it until after and not wasting time.
--------To that point. Game notes state it is created for 12 players (with 3 skum). We have 14. There was a note saying something like "there may be more skum). Assuming that in this case it would not be BOTH of the adds, we are looking at a 3-4 player Skum Team. -----------
- For *reasons*, I do not want to lynch Galz and at this point he is, regardless of everything, my strongest town read.

2) Drunk Ash?
- No idea what to make of this. Insight would be neat. is there a cipher somewhere?
- Vote on him is kind of odd based solely on the reasons stated.


Towny: Eevee, Galz, EFHW

Null-Towny: Robz, MCMC,

Null: IDPTG, Chairs

Null-Skummy: O, Ash, GK

Skummy: Teproc



Request a Vote Count Please

[Swowl]

Not saying you are wrong and I am right for sure, it is def a matter of opinion, but I assume Town frustration on set ups more often than the other way around.

Well, scum!Galz and scum!ashersky were pretty frustrated with the Hammer Hero setup problem in Mafia 100.

I wasn't in that game. I will have to look at it.

[gkrieg13]

@IDPTG: Any thoughts on the whole me/O/gkrieg thing (and on Galz while you're at it) ? What about Robe v mcmc ?

I think a gkrieg flip tells us a lot, but I don"t think that's a reason to lynch him. Not sure what I think if you yet. As for O, I've scumread people in the past for getting set-ups as wrong as this Ascetic deal, but it's never panned out well so I'm inclined to think it's town!O.

As for Robz vs mcmc, I think mcmc is the townier of the two, but it's not a super strong read.

Why does my flip give a lot of information compared to other people?

In my opinion, (assuming you're active and are using your shots) the alignment of the possible redirection clarifies some of the results that have been discussed today.

Really?  Everything checks out with night actions without me...

[IDontPlayThisGame]

@IDPTG: Any thoughts on the whole me/O/gkrieg thing (and on Galz while you're at it) ? What about Robe v mcmc ?

I think a gkrieg flip tells us a lot, but I don"t think that's a reason to lynch him. Not sure what I think if you yet. As for O, I've scumread people in the past for getting set-ups as wrong as this Ascetic deal, but it's never panned out well so I'm inclined to think it's town!O.

As for Robz vs mcmc, I think mcmc is the townier of the two, but it's not a super strong read.

Why does my flip give a lot of information compared to other people?

In my opinion, (assuming you're active and are using your shots) the alignment of the possible redirection clarifies some of the results that have been discussed today.

Really?  Everything checks out with night actions without me...

I'll take another look so I can better articulate what I was talking about.

[Archetype]

Vote Count 2.5

Teproc (1): DatSwan
O (4): ashersky, EFHW, Eevee, Galzria
mcmcsalot (1): Robz888
Robz888 (2): chairs, mcmcsalot
Galzria (2): Teproc, O
ashersky(1): IDontPlayThisGame
IDontPlayThisGame(1): gkrieg13

Not Voting (0):
With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch. Day 2 will end January 8th at 7:00 PM

[Galzria]

Not saying you are wrong and I am right for sure, it is def a matter of opinion, but I assume Town frustration on set ups more often than the other way around.

Well, scum!Galz and scum!ashersky were pretty frustrated with the Hammer Hero setup problem in Mafia 100.

You're correct. I was. As was Ash. Because that role and setup were broken against scum. You admitted it yourself as the mod, and due to a similarly broke mechanic actually rerolled your next game.

What's broken against scum to be frustrated about here? Assume everybody but me has told the truth and is town. Then town has...?

Alive:
Roleblocker (O; UB)
JoaT with a burned Doc shot (Teproc)
Neighborizer (mcmc)

Dead:
Roleblocker (Joseph)

That's a weak town list still alive. Hell, throw me in and it's still a weak town list still alive. Not to mention scum are all-knowledgeable now. What do I have to fear and gain by blowing the whole thing up as scum?

You're attempting to draw parallels between this game and M100 when, honestly, there's nothing even close even assuming all of the above are town.

The frustration is in the lazy ass argument that "Nah, they're probably all town" - especially from myself knowing I'm a PR. It's in an acceptance and belief that with 13 players, it's "ok and reasonable" to expect 5+ town PR's and 3 scum PR's (as proposed by... EFHW? I think). %62+ of a normal game shouldn't be PR's. Strength is irrelevant. It's about being able to reasonably say/argue - "wait a second, I KNOW I'm a PR. And A claimed PR, and B claimed PR, and C claimed PR, and D claimed PR... well, that's not right". If I wanted to play in that style game (and sometimes I do!) I would sign up for a  Role Madness.

So my base assumption, based on the fact that this is classified as a normal game is that ALL of us aren't actually town.

Regardless, whatever. You can all feel free to disagree. My vote is where I want it and I'm content.

[Galzria]

 Sorry, one point wrong above:

You didn't reroll your next game due to a similarly broke mechanic. You DID reroll, and the game DID contain a broken role, but the two issues were not related.

[ashersky]

One of gkrieg’s posts sounded like “you are catching onto me for the wrong reasons” kind of reasoning. 

Cool points for Datswan for catching the song.

Gkrieg missing my clear O tunnel is strange.

There’s def scum in {Galz - o - Robz - Mcmc - Teproc}, maybe two.

Chairs is town.

Continued LA for another week and a half, but I am reading every day. 

[ashersky]

On the question from someone about being the lynch with a specific hammerer, def open to it so long as it is to take out the hammerer (and not me) and I agree on the target.

[Swowl]

On the question from someone about being the lynch with a specific hammerer, def open to it so long as it is to take out the hammerer (and not me) and I agree on the target.

If you had to pick a target from you "There’s def scum in {Galz - o - Robz - Mcmc - Teproc}, maybe two." list - who would it be?

[Swowl]

well I wasted a ton of time typing out a big old thing that just ended in me contradicting myself all over the place. somehow I find myself this early in the game fairly certain of a combo skum team pairing, but as no one seems willing to go for the other half with me for now I will switch to:

vote: O

[Teproc]

Well, I think O is the leat likely person to be scum in the whole game, so congrats !

If gkrieg is town, I don't see how O can be scum at all. Why would he claim to have roleblocked me ? All he has to do is to say he did nothing, and the lynch is either me or gkrieg.

And even if gkrieg is scum, he's putting himself out there by doing that... it could be, though, but I don't see any reason to lynch O over gkrieg (and I'm not as enthusiastic about lynching gkrieg as  before, he's had a townie day 2).

[Teproc]

Thinking "they"re probably all town" is not lazy, it simply is the simplest explanation. You (Galz) continue to be incapable of actually explaining why any of this happens if I'm scum, and as explained above I think it's ridiculous to lynch O over gkrieg, but none of you guys seem to be taking the time to actually think this situation through. Which, in your case (and probably Swan's) is pretty easy to explain, because town!you isn't that sloppy. I don't remember who quoted a post of mine saying they agreed but Galz being wrong doesn't make them scum : oh but it does. Town!Galz isn't this wrong.

I've been accused of OMGUSing Galz, and it's completely true. Because town!Galz doesn't S so much, therefore he's scum.

[Teproc]

Everyone voting O should explain exactly why O claimed when he did, and in what world he's scum without gkrieg being scum.

Everyone voting me should explain exactly what role I have and what motivation I had for claiming.

[Teproc]

That's a weak town list still alive. Hell, throw me in and it's still a weak town list still alive.

[..]

So my base assumption, based on the fact that this is classified as a normal game is that ALL of us aren't actually town.

This does not even come close to adding up. You can't say "this is underpowered town" AND "this is too much power for town to have in a normal game". I mean, duh. How do you justify that... I mean it's not even a leap of logic, it's just ignoring any notiong of logic at all.

[Teproc]

On the question from someone about being the lynch with a specific hammerer, def open to it so long as it is to take out the hammerer (and not me) and I agree on the target.

If you had to pick a target from you "There’s def scum in {Galz - o - Robz - Mcmc - Teproc}, maybe two." list - who would it be?

This is scum figuring out who is lynchable, not town figuring out who's scum.

[EFHW]

unvote

[Teproc]

Actually, I think I want to lynch Swan more than Galz. I've been wrong about Galz before for somewhat similar reasons, but this is exactly the same Swan as in... whataver the game was where I replaced LL and promptly got lynched, but Swan and Skumpy won for the scumteam after that.

[Teproc]

vote: Swan

[Teproc]

ash, why is chairs town ?

[mcmcsalot]

responding to swan. I think its as interesting to me that you wouldn't neiborize galz N0 as you are that I would neighboring robz. It was N0, no reads to go off, no powers to go off, just the fact that lots of the time I decide to signup to play so I have another reason to talk to my brother who I miss, so having a power to be able to talk with him more, I fully believe I would have neighborized him as either allignment.

I can also confirm I did not neighborize robz last night.

[O]

I think everyone presenting these 4 candidate lists seems scummy when we have had no role related reason to arbitrarily reduce the lynch pool.

I'm becoming increasingly convinced that all four are town (or three are town and MCMC is scum, and just being included because other scum correctly don't think he's a likely lynch)

[O]

well I wasted a ton of time typing out a big old thing that just ended in me contradicting myself all over the place. somehow I find myself this early in the game fairly certain of a combo skum team pairing, but as no one seems willing to go for the other half with me for now I will switch to:

vote: O

Can you actually spell out how the Teproc!O combo makes sense?

Like our actions don't disprove it I guess but theres I don't get why you'd assume it either

[EFHW]

@DatSwan, I'm wondering why you typed up so much on how Galz is acting strangely when you had already decided he was a strong town read.

[Robz888]

ash, why is chairs town ?

I also would like to know this.

[Swowl]

well I wasted a ton of time typing out a big old thing that just ended in me contradicting myself all over the place. somehow I find myself this early in the game fairly certain of a combo skum team pairing, but as no one seems willing to go for the other half with me for now I will switch to:

vote: O

Can you actually spell out how the Teproc!O combo makes sense?

Like our actions don't disprove it I guess but theres I don't get why you'd assume it either

I could indeed

[Robz888]

well I wasted a ton of time typing out a big old thing that just ended in me contradicting myself all over the place. somehow I find myself this early in the game fairly certain of a combo skum team pairing, but as no one seems willing to go for the other half with me for now I will switch to:

vote: O

Can you actually spell out how the Teproc!O combo makes sense?

Like our actions don't disprove it I guess but theres I don't get why you'd assume it either

I could indeed

We had this argument with Galz already: the O/Teproc scum pairing is like the most unfounded scum pairing of all. Me and mcmc being scumbuddies together makes more sense than that.

Vote: DatSwan

[Galzria]

well I wasted a ton of time typing out a big old thing that just ended in me contradicting myself all over the place. somehow I find myself this early in the game fairly certain of a combo skum team pairing, but as no one seems willing to go for the other half with me for now I will switch to:

vote: O

Can you actually spell out how the Teproc!O combo makes sense?

Like our actions don't disprove it I guess but theres I don't get why you'd assume it either

I could indeed

We had this argument with Galz already: the O/Teproc scum pairing is like the most unfounded scum pairing of all. Me and mcmc being scumbuddies together makes more sense than that.

Vote: DatSwan

Wrong

[Teproc]

well I wasted a ton of time typing out a big old thing that just ended in me contradicting myself all over the place. somehow I find myself this early in the game fairly certain of a combo skum team pairing, but as no one seems willing to go for the other half with me for now I will switch to:

vote: O

Can you actually spell out how the Teproc!O combo makes sense?

Like our actions don't disprove it I guess but theres I don't get why you'd assume it either

I could indeed

Taking the Galz route of "I'm so much better than you I don't even need to use such base things as logic and arguments" I see.

[Teproc]

Maybe that was unnecessarily agressive, sorry. I am curious how you make that work though (because it really doesn't).

[Galzria]

Maybe that was unnecessarily agressive, sorry. I am curious how you make that work though (because it really doesn't).

Wrong

[Teproc]

I get the "don't argue with people who are scum" thing, it's a policy of mine as well... but not for stuff like this. This is not behavioral, this is basic PR/claiming stuff.

[Swowl]

well I wasted a ton of time typing out a big old thing that just ended in me contradicting myself all over the place. somehow I find myself this early in the game fairly certain of a combo skum team pairing, but as no one seems willing to go for the other half with me for now I will switch to:

vote: O

Can you actually spell out how the Teproc!O combo makes sense?

Like our actions don't disprove it I guess but theres I don't get why you'd assume it either

I could indeed

Taking the Galz route of "I'm so much better than you I don't even need to use such base things as logic and arguments" I see.

Nope.
Used logic. If you are Town my logic will not help you r this point. It could help skum tho. So I’m holding it for now. Feel free to ask again later.

[Teproc]

Wait, what ? You're actually not sharing why you think I'm scum ?

That's hilarious actually. I guess that's one way to avoid discussing how poor your arguments are.

[Teproc]

I would strongly encourage people to consider voting DatSwan. Also, deadline is on Monday. We all know how weekends go, so I'd ask people to consider that, I don't particularly want to be in the same situation as day 1 come Monday night.

[Galzria]

I would strongly encourage people to consider voting O. Also, deadline is on Monday. We all know how weekends go, so I'd ask people to consider that, I don't particularly want to be in the same situation as day 1 come Monday night.

[Teproc]

Again, for people who are not Galz and Swan and don't have mysterious motives (a hint: it has to do with their alignment): it's very hard for O to be scum if gkrieg is not (because why would O claim to have roleblocked me when my claim would have made it me v gkrieg had he said "nope, didn't roleblock Teproc"), which makes him a pretty terrible lynch.

[Galzria]

Again, for people who are not Galz and Swan and don't have mysterious motives (a hint: it has to do with their alignment): it's very hard for O to be scum if gkrieg is not (because why would O claim to have roleblocked me when my claim would have made it me v gkrieg had he said "nope, didn't roleblock Teproc"), which makes him a pretty terrible lynch.

Wrong. So much wrong here.

[Teproc]

Well, since you can't explain why that's wrong, I'm going to go ahead and assume it's right.

[Galzria]

Again, for people who are not Galz and Swan and don't have mysterious motives (a hint: it has to do with their alignment): it's very hard for O to be scum if gkrieg is not (because why would O claim to have roleblocked me when my claim would have made it me v gkrieg had he said "nope, didn't roleblock Teproc"), which makes him a pretty terrible lynch.

Wrong. So much wrong here.

I mean, I still think you're scum before O is, but people don't seem inclined to vote the way so c'est la vie.

[Galzria]

Well, since you can't explain why that's wrong, I'm going to go ahead and assume it's right.

Just because you've chosen to ignore and dismiss the reasons why it's wrong doesn't mean they don't exist and haven't been said numerous times.

[Teproc]

Oh right, it works if I'm scum, maybe ? I don't even think it does, because it changes it from scum v town to scum & scum v town, which does not seem like a great deal. Again though, there's very little coherence in any narrative proposed (or myseteriously kept secret because reasons) for why any scumteam involving me would have gone through this whole ordeal in the first place.

PPE: You really haven't. Even if you have, can you please repeat them. I'm very slow and stupid, you need to repeat things for me to understand them.

[Teproc]

Like, narratives that have me as scum assume that I'm willing to fakeclaim and involve a scumpartner in that fakeclaim to maybe get information on Oracle (while having no particular reason to think I would get that info, because even if I tracked, how would I be able to know I was redirected ?)... so you know.

[Teproc]

They also assume gkrieg is town, because they rely on me doing all this to know if he targeted me. Which means it's incredibly unlikely that O is scum, for reasons outlined above. So really there's no way lynching O makes any sense.

[Galzria]

Tep, this isn't that hard.

Scum!O choosing not to claim doesn't set up a forced mislynch scenario between town!Teproc and Town!Gkrieg. It does the opposite of what you're claiming. It forces YOU to claim "I know one of O or Gkrieg is lying so the lynch pool MUST be between them and me".

O claiming REMOVES that argument. It pulls him OUT of a potential forced lynch pool. Claiming is absolutely the correct move for him as scum.

[Teproc]

Tep, this isn't that hard.

Scum!O choosing not to claim doesn't set up a forced mislynch scenario between town!Teproc and Town!Gkrieg. It does the opposite of what you're claiming. It forces YOU to claim "I know one of O or Gkrieg is lying so the lynch pool MUST be between them and me".

O claiming REMOVES that argument. It pulls him OUT of a potential forced lynch pool. Claiming is absolutely the correct move for him as scum.

No. If O didn't claim, it was going to be gkrieg or me because of gkrieg's refusal to answer my question initially. If you chose to ignore anything that was happening early D1, sure O is in the lynchpool, but that was not the reality of the game.

[Teproc]

Galz, what are your thoughts on Swan ?

[Galzria]

I mean, my problem is that you're NOT a bad player, but the conclusions you're drawing here are not really thought out.

I get that everybody wants to accept that blindly shooting The series of events fell the way they did, but the fact is that it's FAR easier to accept if you assume there was some guidance to what happened.

Scum killing one Doctor and blocking another is an INCREDIBLY reasonable play. O not understanding ascetic is not alignment indicative, it's just O. And that's far more reasonable than assuming all the night actions resolved from an all-Town perspective. That sort of coincidence just doesn't happen.

[ashersky]

I am scmreading Galz, but then his post about why O claims as scum is good.  So, yeah.

Chairs is town because he’s easy to read, usually, and that’s how I read him today.

[ashersky]

I’m still liking the O lynch.

Would move to just about anyone to ensure a lynch on Monday.

[Galzria]

Tep, this isn't that hard.

Scum!O choosing not to claim doesn't set up a forced mislynch scenario between town!Teproc and Town!Gkrieg. It does the opposite of what you're claiming. It forces YOU to claim "I know one of O or Gkrieg is lying so the lynch pool MUST be between them and me".

O claiming REMOVES that argument. It pulls him OUT of a potential forced lynch pool. Claiming is absolutely the correct move for him as scum.

No. If O didn't claim, it was going to be gkrieg or me because of gkrieg's refusal to answer my question initially. If you chose to ignore anything that was happening early D1, sure O is in the lynchpool, but that was not the reality of the game.

That's absolutely the reality man. If you're town and were blocked, and two people could be responsible, YOU may choose to tunnel one - but the fact is that on the assumption you're town then one of EITHER Gkrieg or O is lying. It would be up to the rest of everybody in the game to make that decision. You don't control that. Scum!O has no reason to put himself in that situation when he can simply say "Yeah, I blocked Tep" and it's all over.

[ashersky]

I will ask — does O think it through like that?

[Teproc]

I mean, my problem is that you're NOT a bad player, but the conclusions you're drawing here are not really thought out.

I get that everybody wants to accept that blindly shooting The series of events fell the way they did, but the fact is that it's FAR easier to accept if you assume there was some guidance to what happened.

Scum killing one Doctor and blocking another is an INCREDIBLY reasonable play. O not understanding ascetic is not alignment indicative, it's just O. And that's far more reasonable than assuming all the night actions resolved from an all-Town perspective. That sort of coincidence just doesn't happen.

You keep going back to that idea that the "all town" scenario is unlikely, and that's just patently untrue. It's literally two night actions taken by town that worked out unfortunatly. That's it. One town PR targeting another town PR targeting the kill target. Guessing faust is going to be killed on N1 is not exactly rocket science you know, especially with the possibility of him being a doctor and him having gather little suspicion day 1.

O misunderstanding ascetic IS alignment-indicative! scum!O discussed this with his partners and is therefore much less likely to have misunderstood it (because you need three people to misunderstand it).

Of course scum killing a doctor and blocking another is reasonable play, that was the whole premise of my claim. I don't think O is town because he roleblocked me, I think he's town because he claimed it.

[Galzria]

Galz, what are your thoughts on Swan ?

I don't feel this is forced poisoner!swan that we saw when you were a mason.

In the Skumpy/Swan/LL game I had LL/Skumpy D1 - Swan was harder for me to read.

[Teproc]

scum!O might lie about the misunderstanding of course, but if you believe he did misunderstand, then he's much more likely to be town. And again, playing dumb doesn't seem like a scum!O move to me.

It's not just about me tunneling gkrieg if O doesn't claim, it's about gkrieg being much more widely scumread, having a much scarier role and having refused to answer my second question. Scum!O sees that and definitely assumes he's safe if he doesn't claim, gkrieg gets lynched 80% of the time. He almost got lynched the day before, remember ?

[Galzria]

I mean, my problem is that you're NOT a bad player, but the conclusions you're drawing here are not really thought out.

I get that everybody wants to accept that blindly shooting The series of events fell the way they did, but the fact is that it's FAR easier to accept if you assume there was some guidance to what happened.

Scum killing one Doctor and blocking another is an INCREDIBLY reasonable play. O not understanding ascetic is not alignment indicative, it's just O. And that's far more reasonable than assuming all the night actions resolved from an all-Town perspective. That sort of coincidence just doesn't happen.

You keep going back to that idea that the "all town" scenario is unlikely, and that's just patently untrue. It's literally two night actions taken by town that worked out unfortunatly. That's it. One town PR targeting another town PR targeting the kill target. Guessing faust is going to be killed on N1 is not exactly rocket science you know, especially with the possibility of him being a doctor and him having gather little suspicion day 1.

O misunderstanding ascetic IS alignment-indicative! scum!O discussed this with his partners and is therefore much less likely to have misunderstood it (because you need three people to misunderstand it).

Of course scum killing a doctor and blocking another is reasonable play, that was the whole premise of my claim. I don't think O is town because he roleblocked me, I think he's town because he claimed it.

There are a handful of assumptions that need to be made for it to work out:

O is Town
O is a PR
O choose to block Teproc

Teproc is town
Teproc is a PR
Teproc choose to target Faust

Scum choose to target Faust

That could, in fact, all be true. Yes. But it's a lot of "if's" all working out. Whereas a much simpler explanation is flipping O from town to scum above. Now the REASONS for the targeting make sense. They don't if O is Town. I mean, what? His defense is that he scum read you and was trying to block a NK? He scum read a number of people. He picks the one person with a potentially useful town PR from that list?

How many people have been inactive? It's entirely possible that no, scum didn't talk about ascetic at night. It was over the holidays and activity was dead.

I personally town read Gkrieg yesterday. Others had not chimed in. His lynch with an unclaiming O is not as black and white as you want to believe.

[O]

I will ask — does O think it through like that?

Probably not?

If I were Scum!O that would probably be an good trade if I claimed vanilla... keep my mouth shut, get Gkrieg + Teproc lynched, and die after having removed the potential doctor, redirector, one shot doctor + tracker...

Like I'm not going to say that my claiming is some magically exonerating evidence -- but the theories for why I would do it as scum all seem to fail the credibility test compared to the town argument: I'm town, and I claimed it because I did it and that's what town does.

[O]

He picks the one person with a potentially useful town PR from that list?

I
1) thought he had a harmful PR
2) Did not think he'd Doctor D1 as town


but even with both of those... your logic sucks

Scum!Teproc is scumbuddies with others. We've all massclaimed. They suspect there is potentially a roleblocker.
If everyone subscribed to your logic, they could just give Teproc the kill and avoid being blocked at all. It's not like the Tracker/Doctor/(Real) Ascetic shots are that useful as scum.

Even if I didn't fuck up, I should be roleblocking potentially useful PRs some percent of the time.

[O]

Like there's some Nash equilibrium here of correct blocking play that results in me blocking town beneficial PRs after a massclaim much higher than 0% of the time

[Galzria]

I
1) thought he had a harmful PR

It's not like the Tracker/Doctor/(Real) Ascetic shots are that useful as scum.

I should be roleblocking potentially useful PRs some percent of the time.

Wanna try again there with all that reasoning champ?

Scum!Teproc is scumbuddies with others. We've all massclaimed. They suspect there is potentially a roleblocker.

And they suspect that... Why?

[O]

I
1) thought he had a harmful PR

It's not like the Tracker/Doctor/(Real) Ascetic shots are that useful as scum.

I should be roleblocking potentially useful PRs some percent of the time.

Wanna try again there with all that reasoning champ?

Hey smartass, there's no contradiction here. I first stated my assumptions last night, and then I shifted to arguing why you were wrong even if I was correctly informed.

1) I thought Teproc was a potentially useful SCUM Pr. (Statement 1)  This was incorrect (Statement 2).
2) Even if I didn't, I should block potentially useful TOWN Pr's some percentage of the time.

Scum!Teproc is scumbuddies with others. We've all massclaimed. They suspect there is potentially a roleblocker.

And they suspect that... Why?

Because a roleblocker died and I'm potentially universal backup?

That's why I said potentially..

[IDontPlayThisGame]

I could get on a Swan wagon. This is reminiscent of scum!Swan from the game I played with him.

@IDPTG: Any thoughts on the whole me/O/gkrieg thing (and on Galz while you're at it) ? What about Robe v mcmc ?

I think a gkrieg flip tells us a lot, but I don"t think that's a reason to lynch him. Not sure what I think if you yet. As for O, I've scumread people in the past for getting set-ups as wrong as this Ascetic deal, but it's never panned out well so I'm inclined to think it's town!O.

As for Robz vs mcmc, I think mcmc is the townier of the two, but it's not a super strong read.

Why does my flip give a lot of information compared to other people?

In my opinion, (assuming you're active and are using your shots) the alignment of the possible redirection clarifies some of the results that have been discussed today.

Really?  Everything checks out with night actions without me...

I'll take another look so I can better articulate what I was talking about.

Sorry about that. I went back to look for it but my memory wasn't correct.

[O]

I prefer Galzria but could absolutely vote Swan

[gkrieg13]

I would also vote Swan if no one wants to join me on ISPTG

[Galzria]

So O's defense, if it is to be followed, goes thusly:

"Teproc was one of many scum reads I had D1, and I wanted to block a NK. I thought wrongly that his PR was ALSO useful as scum, so blocking him seemed like a double-win. Even though I was wrong about his PR being useful to scum, it's ok, because blocking useful town PR's can be ok sometimes. The fact that I claimed all of this makes me town."

Or, basically:

"I did really anti-Town stuff last night, but I admitted it so I'm town."

Man, who knew playing scum could be so easy.

O, your statement about scum assuming there could potentially be a Roleblocker is you blowing smoke to obfuscate points. They could "potentially" assume any claimed character was in the game. There is no rhyme or reason for them to assume any player over any other player is active.

[O]

So O's defense, if it is to be followed, goes thusly:

"Teproc was one of many scum reads I had D1, and I wanted to block a NK. I thought wrongly that his PR was ALSO useful as scum, so blocking him seemed like a double-win. Even though I was wrong about his PR being useful to scum, it's ok, because blocking useful town PR's can be ok sometimes. The fact that I claimed all of this makes me town."

Or, basically:

"I did really anti-Town stuff last night, but I admitted it so I'm town."

Man, who knew playing scum could be so easy.

O, your statement about scum assuming there could potentially be a Roleblocker is you blowing smoke to obfuscate points. They could "potentially" assume any claimed character was in the game. There is no rhyme or reason for them to assume any player over any other player is active.

You're flailing again.

I have 2 points. One is that I fucked up. The other is that even though I fucked up, your statement is wrong. My second statement isn't trying to prove my alignment really, just show you that your wrong.


I'm not blowing smoke at all. Scum can assume there is potentially a roleblocker in the game. There's no reason I, a roleblocker, should play in a way that allows them to 100% avoid me by having a potentially townish pr use the kill.

What exactly is wrong about that? Respond to the point instead of saying it's blowing smoke.

[Archetype]

Vote Count 2.6

O (4): ashersky, Eevee, Galzria, DatSwan
Robz888 (2): chairs, mcmcsalot
Galzria (1): O
ashersky(1): IDontPlayThisGame
IDontPlayThisGame(1): gkrieg13
DatSwan(2): Teproc, Robz888

Not Voting (1): EFHW
With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch. Day 2 will end January 8th at 7:00 PM

[O]

Vote Count 2.6

Teproc (1): DatSwan
O (5): ashersky, EFHW, Eevee, Galzria, DatSwan
Robz888 (2): chairs, mcmcsalot
Galzria (1): O
ashersky(1): IDontPlayThisGame
IDontPlayThisGame(1): gkrieg13
DatSwan(2): Teproc, Robz888

Not Voting (0):
With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch. Day 2 will end January 8th at 7:00 PM

EFHW unvoted

[O]

Also Datswan is double counted

[Archetype]

Fixed

[Galzria]

So O's defense, if it is to be followed, goes thusly:

"Teproc was one of many scum reads I had D1, and I wanted to block a NK. I thought wrongly that his PR was ALSO useful as scum, so blocking him seemed like a double-win. Even though I was wrong about his PR being useful to scum, it's ok, because blocking useful town PR's can be ok sometimes. The fact that I claimed all of this makes me town."

Or, basically:

"I did really anti-Town stuff last night, but I admitted it so I'm town."

Man, who knew playing scum could be so easy.

O, your statement about scum assuming there could potentially be a Roleblocker is you blowing smoke to obfuscate points. They could "potentially" assume any claimed character was in the game. There is no rhyme or reason for them to assume any player over any other player is active.

You're flailing again.

I have 2 points. One is that I fucked up. The other is that even though I fucked up, your statement is wrong. My second statement isn't trying to prove my alignment really, just show you that your wrong.


I'm not blowing smoke at all. Scum can assume there is potentially a roleblocker in the game. There's no reason I, a roleblocker, should play in a way that allows them to 100% avoid me by having a potentially townish pr use the kill.

What exactly is wrong about that? Respond to the point instead of saying it's blowing smoke.

The only one that's been flailing here is you O. Inconsistent arguments at BEST to attempt to explain actions that work far more as scum than as town.

You're trying to argue two ways at the same time:

1) I acted thinking Tep had a scummy PR - I was wrong.
2) I acted thinking Scum might know I was in the game so have their potential townie PR's do the kill.

The Faust kill was obvious? Why would scum do that if there are two potential trackers in the game? Obviously they assumed those were active and would've chosen to play around them, right? I mean, with your (2nd) logic scum is all omniscient about who actively has what so would've played accordingly, right?

[O]

2) I acted thinking Scum might know I was in the game so have their potential townie PR's do the kill.

I am not and have never claimed this. I am providing arguments now that I did not consider or think of during the night, because I thought Teproc had a good for scum PR. I'm not arguing this to defend my towniness -- I'm arguing this to show the holes in your arguments and show your scumminess.

You're willfully misinterpreting me here

I don't have a clue what the Faust bit is about, I've never ever suggested the Faust kill was obvious.

[Galzria]

2) I acted thinking Scum might know I was in the game so have their potential townie PR's do the kill.

I am not and have never claimed this. I am providing arguments now that I did not consider or think of during the night, because I thought Teproc had a good for scum PR. I'm not arguing this to defend my towniness -- I'm arguing this to show the holes in your arguments and show your scumminess.

You're willfully misinterpreting me here

I don't have a clue what the Faust bit is about, I've never ever suggested the Faust kill was obvious.

What argument of mine is it that you think you're poking holes in with that line of arguing? The fact that scum you wants to block useful town PR's more than town you? A) He does, B) It's irrelevant from a town you perspectives because you're claiming that's not why you targeted Teproc anyway.

[O]

2) I acted thinking Scum might know I was in the game so have their potential townie PR's do the kill.

I am not and have never claimed this. I am providing arguments now that I did not consider or think of during the night, because I thought Teproc had a good for scum PR. I'm not arguing this to defend my towniness -- I'm arguing this to show the holes in your arguments and show your scumminess.

You're willfully misinterpreting me here

I don't have a clue what the Faust bit is about, I've never ever suggested the Faust kill was obvious.

What argument of mine is it that you think you're poking holes in with that line of arguing? The fact that scum you wants to block useful town PR's more than town you? A) He does, B) It's irrelevant from a town you perspectives because you're claiming that's not why you targeted Teproc anyway.

It's not irrelevant. The implication hidden in there is that I made up misreading the role to defend my actions. I'm pointing out that I have no reason to make up misreading the role because my actions would have been defensible regardless... I legitimately just misread the role.

[EFHW]

I've read all of Galzria's and Teproc's back and forth, and I think they are both right. O claiming is not alignment indicative. He could have had either line of reasoning at the time.

Is the main scummy thing about him that he targeted Teproc? That does fit a scum narrative well, but his story fits, too. If there is more, please elaborate. I thought his initial arguments were fishy, but I'm getting more used to his style now.

[Galzria]

2) I acted thinking Scum might know I was in the game so have their potential townie PR's do the kill.

I am not and have never claimed this. I am providing arguments now that I did not consider or think of during the night, because I thought Teproc had a good for scum PR. I'm not arguing this to defend my towniness -- I'm arguing this to show the holes in your arguments and show your scumminess.

You're willfully misinterpreting me here

I don't have a clue what the Faust bit is about, I've never ever suggested the Faust kill was obvious.

What argument of mine is it that you think you're poking holes in with that line of arguing? The fact that scum you wants to block useful town PR's more than town you? A) He does, B) It's irrelevant from a town you perspectives because you're claiming that's not why you targeted Teproc anyway.

It's not irrelevant. The implication hidden in there is that I made up misreading the role to defend my actions. I'm pointing out that I have no reason to make up misreading the role because my actions would have been defensible regardless... I legitimately just misread the role.

There's no hidden anything there. I do believe you misread it. I believe you looked at it and went:

Well, town me would want to block him because X (this is what you've claimed, from a town perspective, wrong though it was), and scum me wants to block him because of {Doctor, Tracker}, so I can argue having made this choice because of X.

X was wrong, but I do genuinely believe you didn't know that. I think scum you planned on using it as a defense for picking Teproc not realizing it was wrong, and now are using a "Well I fucked up" defense instead.

[EFHW]

@DatSwan, I'm wondering why you typed up so much on how Galz is acting strangely when you had already decided he was a strong town read.

I am still interested in hearing an answer to this.

[EFHW]

We need to hear a lot more from Eevee!

[Eevee]

And he appears!

First of all, unvote. It’s terrible I had my vote on him for so long.

Scumreads:
Galzria
Mcmc
Swan
IDPTG
ashersky

Townreads:
Robz
Teproc
O
gkrieg
EFHW (very slight)

chairs was a townread, but it’s waning with the lack of recent fuel.

[Eevee]

Robz has consistently seem like the townier side of robz-mcmc arguments. I’m often convinced by mcmc’s cases (I think he’s especially good in early game scumhunting), but neither the robz or the gkrieg case seemed very credible to me.

Teproc’s arguments for O’s towniness really resonated with me, and Galzria and Swan look scummy to me from those exchanges.

[Eevee]

vote: swan seems best because it has two votes already, but I would join if there was movement towards ash or idptg.

I think ash’s odd posting could be intentional as scum, I think he more than anyone likes to greater diversions as scum. I didn’t sense any attempt at making a point in the post tornado a few nights back, and ash’s play otherwise has actually been rather tame, he has made some outrageous claims but hasn’t been very adamant about defending or pushing them.

[Eevee]

It’s lrobably partially due to her subbing in, but i feel i don’t have a very good handle on what efhw is thinking about the players or events of the game. Same for chairs, but he also hasn’t been posting much.

small things: i also don’t see mcmc targeting robz n1 as an alignment-indicator, and i think o is slightly more likely to make the setup mistake as town.

[Galzria]

And he appears!

First of all, unvote. It’s terrible I had my vote on him for so long.

Scumreads:
Galzria
Mcmc
Swan
IDPTG
ashersky

Townreads:
Robz
Teproc
O
gkrieg
EFHW (very slight)

chairs was a townread, but it’s waning with the lack of recent fuel.

I believe every scum is in your town list lol

[Eevee]

I noticed how much we are disagreeing as well. I concluded that to mean you are mafia.

[Eevee]

I noticed how much we are disagreeing as well. I concluded that to mean you are mafia.

I’m amused of the possibility of you just being town though. To think how many a Galzria cases and votes I’ve sheeped over the years.

[Galzria]

I noticed how much we are disagreeing as well. I concluded that to mean you are mafia.

I’m amused of the possibility of you just being town though. To think how many a Galzria cases and votes I’ve sheeped over the years.

I'm right more than not. It's not always a bad idea.

[Archetype]

theorel has replaced chairs

[ashersky]

I think town!O blocks me 90-93% of the time.

[O]

I think town!O blocks me 90-93% of the time.

you vastly overestimated my seriousness in the Robz!Ashersky conspiracy theory if you think this is remotely true

[Galzria]

I think town!O blocks me 90-93% of the time.

you vastly overestimated my seriousness in the Robz!Ashersky conspiracy theory if you think this is remotely true

Convenient

[Galzria]

theorel has replaced chairs

Theorel!

[O]

oh my

[Swowl]

I was trying to convince myself it was O.
It’s either Teproc and players x or maybe Teproc and O but I’m not voting anyone but Teproc today. Eevee go read stuff. You are on the nut low rn.

<b>vote:Teproc<\b>

Join me Town.

[ashersky]

Obligatory QT scumslip.

[Eevee]

I was trying to convince myself it was O.
It’s either Teproc and players x or maybe Teproc and O but I’m not voting anyone but Teproc today. Eevee go read stuff. You are on the nut low rn.

<b>vote:Teproc<\b>

Join me Town.

What makes you think (and be so sure) it’s teproc?

[Swowl]

I was

I was trying to convince myself it was O.
It’s either Teproc and players x or maybe Teproc and O but I’m not voting anyone but Teproc today. Eevee go read stuff. You are on the nut low rn.

<b>vote:Teproc<\b>

Join me Town.

What makes you think (and be so sure) it’s teproc?

1) he has never mis read me before this game
2) his arguments with Galz seem forced
3) his interactions with O seemed forced

There’s more i guess, but honestly at this point (holidays understood and all) it is the lack of effort that is losing the game. Either O or Teproc are skum, maybe both. Whatever. My thoughts are if the majority is leaning O then if they are both not skum, it is most likely Teproc.

[Swowl]

Obligatory QT scumslip.

Obligatory useless comment?

[Swowl]

I was trying to convince myself it was O.
It’s either Teproc and players x or maybe Teproc and O but I’m not voting anyone but Teproc today. Eevee go read stuff. You are on the nut low rn.

<b>vote:Teproc<\b>

Join me Town.

What makes you think (and be so sure) it’s teproc?

What makes you so sure i am skum?

[Teproc]

I was

I was trying to convince myself it was O.
It’s either Teproc and players x or maybe Teproc and O but I’m not voting anyone but Teproc today. Eevee go read stuff. You are on the nut low rn.

<b>vote:Teproc<\b>

Join me Town.

What makes you think (and be so sure) it’s teproc?

1) he has never mis read me before this game
2) his arguments with Galz seem forced
3) his interactions with O seemed forced

There’s more i guess, but honestly at this point (holidays understood and all) it is the lack of effort that is losing the game. Either O or Teproc are skum, maybe both. Whatever. My thoughts are if the majority is leaning O then if they are both not skum, it is most likely Teproc.

1. Demonstrably false. You were one of my strongest town reads in the first few days of Lost Mafia (O can attest to that), and I'm pretty sure I suspected you quite a bit in Time Managment at various points before we lynched scum.

2. Whatever.

3. This I'm curious about. How so ?

[Teproc]

I think town!O blocks me 90-93% of the time.

You said earlier in this game (I'll dig it up in a second) the exact same thing with me instead of you. What are you doing this game ash ?

[Teproc]

vote: o

He def targets Tep a fair amount of the time.

Hm, I thought it also had a ridiculous percentage, but still.

[ashersky]

I think town!O blocks me 90-93% of the time.

You said earlier in this game (I'll dig it up in a second) the exact same thing with me instead of you. What are you doing this game ash ?

This is town!O.

vote: o

He def targets Tep a fair amount of the time.

Hm, I thought it also had a ridiculous percentage, but still.

This is scum!O (hence the vote).

[Teproc]

Ok. Why would town!O target you specifically ?

[theorel]

Hey everybody, good to be back.
I've been feeling like I wanted to play Mafia for a few weeks, and lightly following recent games (including this one), so I'm conveniently already caught-up, though I may have skimmed a few things.  I may try to go back over stuff at some point, but no promises.
I think O, Teproc, and Galzria all seem townie based on what's happened today so far. I can see Galz's proposed scum-narrative for O, I just don't think it's correct.  I think before he really fleshed it out, it seemed super far-fetched to me, but O conveniently had several votes, which made his wagon tempting for scum.  And DatSwan joined that wagon, at that time, with false reasoning (self-admitted trying to convince oneself).  This makes DatSwan my top scum-read at the moment.

Other things going on: mcmc v. Robz.  mcmc has compelling arguments, which gives me a slight scum-read on Robz, but enough other people seem to think that mcmc is good enough as scum to pull that off.
I will note that mcmc's reasoning-to-Robz about lynching him if he's active is bad.  Although it's true that we have an extra non-death situation that could not harm town, due to numbers, it could also super-help town.  In odd-count games, a successful protection doesn't buy you an extra day...here it would.  So, even if Robz is active, and was willing to be lynched, it would not IMO be to town's benefit.  Besides which, a policy-lynch grants so little information.  With that, mcmc comes off a little scummy for suggesting it, but not overwhelmingly so.

There's some other people in the game, and it's good not to lose track of people.  Gkrieg, I read as scum day1, but have since glanced at another of his games where I also read him as scum, and he was town (I think this happened, and I'm not just attributing day2 stuff).  Given how day2 has gone so far he seems townie to me.  IDontPlayThisGame is in this game...nothing stands out, I can see scum here.  ash was LA for a bit, I think?  He seems less of a driving force in this game than I'm used to...but that's a couple years old meta-read.  I'm going to stick with neutral there.  Eevee is a weak town-read, gut-feeling.  EFHW is a null-read at this point.

tl;dr
Scum-read:
DatSwan (vote: DatSwan)
Slight Scum:
IDPTG, mcmc, Robz
Neutral:
ash, Eevee, EFHW
Town:
O, Teproc, Galzria, Gkrieg

[ashersky]

Ok. Why would town!O target you specifically ?

Because Town!O thinks I’m scum and would be utterly convinced he’s right.

[Teproc]

Ok. Why would town!O target you specifically ?

Because Town!O thinks I’m scum and would be utterly convinced he’s right.

Had O expressed suspicion of you D1 or do you generally think town!O suspects you ?

[Teproc]

Also hi theorel, thanks for replacing (and for having good reads, though I'm not entirely sold on Galz being town yet... I do agree that his view of the O/me/gkrieg thing is less unreasonable than I believed earlier... still wrong though), or on gkrieg for that matter. I do think mcmc is town though.

[Eevee]

I was trying to convince myself it was O.
It’s either Teproc and players x or maybe Teproc and O but I’m not voting anyone but Teproc today. Eevee go read stuff. You are on the nut low rn.

<b>vote:Teproc<\b>

Join me Town.

What makes you think (and be so sure) it’s teproc?

What makes you so sure i am skum?

I’m not really sure at all, I rarely give high confidence in any mafia reads that are purely based on posts in thread, not any role interactions, but you are my top scumread because to me it looks like you are pushing bad arguments and flailing.

ash’s point about townO being likelier makes sense to me. Not enough to reverse my reads on them just yet, but something to keep in mind. (If this is confusing to someone, ash and O have been feuding over playstyle disagreements in a couple recent games.)

@Great to have you here, theorel! It’s been a while.

[theorel]

...
ash’s point about townO being likelier makes sense to me. Not enough to reverse my reads on them just yet, but something to keep in mind. (If this is confusing to someone, ash and O have been feuding over playstyle disagreements in a couple recent games.)

@Great to have you here, theorel! It’s been a while.

O was disputing this day1.  He claims he only played M100 with ash, and in that game ash was in fact scum.  I glanced over sign-ups for regular games from M94+, and there's no games with both ash and O signed up.
O did claim some level of scum-read on ash d1 here (the whole ash-Robz scumteam thing), but it reads rather facetious to me.  I'm having trouble seeing why town!O necessarily targets ash.  This seems like an over-reaction from ash to me rather than a reasonable argument.  i.e. ash thinks O's scum-read on him is super-strong in spite of only minor comments.

[Teproc]

Wait, doesn't ash think O is scum ? I'm confused.

[EFHW]

I think town!O blocks me 90-93% of the time.

Not with your current role.

[theorel]

As far as I can tell, asssuming ash and O are town:
O has a slight scum-read on ash.  (and more particularly had a slight scum-read on ash yesterday).
ash has a strong scum-read on O.

ash's stated argument for why O is scum is: if O were town O would have blocked him, because hypothetically-town O had a super-strong scum read on him. 
I am stating that I do not think that a town!O has shown a strong scum-read on ash.  That ash has over-reacted to O's stated reads, and that O has also stated that the supposed meta-game argument (O always reads ash as scum) doesn't hold water.

potentially useful quote-stack:

idk guys he kinda sounds like he wants to be lynched

who am i to deny that pleasure

O, I’ve been expecting your vote since sign ups.  You have a personal issue with me and I have no idea why.

when have I even tried to kill you except in m100 when you were scum

Is it possible that O has posted scum-reads of ash in speccy threads?  Both ash and eevee have claimed that O has had multiple play-style disagreements with ash lately...but they've only had 1 game together recently (as far as I can tell).  I don't think this kind of easily-refuted falsehood is intentional, I think it's a misunderstanding/misremembering.  I'd like to see better arguments from ash, and him to push whatever these biases are aside so that he can scum-hunt better, since ash is good at picking out scum generally.  Of course, this could all be ash trying to pick out scum, and my reasoned defense could be spoiling that, and if so, I apologize.  But, so far I don't see anything productive coming from it.

[EFHW]

Wait, doesn't ash think O is scum ? I'm confused.

He thinks that town!O would have targeted him, so this must be scum!O.

[gkrieg13]

vote: Datswan

[EFHW]

It’s lrobably partially due to her subbing in, but i feel i don’t have a very good handle on what efhw is thinking about the players or events of the game. Same for chairs, but he also hasn’t been posting much.

small things: i also don’t see mcmc targeting robz n1 as an alignment-indicator, and i think o is slightly more likely to make the setup mistake as town.

I haven't formed any strong scum reads. Here's my list from towny to scummy:

EFHW > Teproc, mcmc, theorel > Eevee, gkrieg, IDPTG, Robz, O > Galz, ash, DatSwan

[theorel]

Quick Vote Count...

Teproc (1?): DatSwan?
O (2(3?)): ashersky, Galzria, DatSwan?
Robz888 (1): mcmcsalot
Galzria (1): O
ashersky(1): IDontPlayThisGame
DatSwan(5): Teproc, Robz888, Eevee, theorel, gkrieg

Not Voting (1): EFHW

(Datswan voted with <b> tags, not sure if that counts.)

[IDontPlayThisGame]

vote: o

He def targets Tep a fair amount of the time.

Hm, I thought it also had a ridiculous percentage, but still.

90-93% is more a meme than an actual percentage. Take it seriously if you want to, but to me it's nonsense.

I defiitely support the DatSwan wagon, but I'm not sure I want to put him to L-1 yet.

[Robz888]

vote: o

He def targets Tep a fair amount of the time.

Hm, I thought it also had a ridiculous percentage, but still.

90-93% is more a meme than an actual percentage. Take it seriously if you want to, but to me it's nonsense.

I defiitely support the DatSwan wagon, but I'm not sure I want to put him to L-1 yet.

Don't really think this abundance of caution is warranted because 1) this has been an extra long day 2) it's the weekend 3) you forgot to vote at all at the end of Day 1 and we nearly No Lynched

[IDontPlayThisGame]

vote: o

He def targets Tep a fair amount of the time.

Hm, I thought it also had a ridiculous percentage, but still.

90-93% is more a meme than an actual percentage. Take it seriously if you want to, but to me it's nonsense.

I defiitely support the DatSwan wagon, but I'm not sure I want to put him to L-1 yet.

Don't really think this abundance of caution is warranted because 1) this has been an extra long day 2) it's the weekend 3) you forgot to vote at all at the end of Day 1 and we nearly No Lynched

Are you trying to goad me into voting?

[Robz888]

vote: o

He def targets Tep a fair amount of the time.

Hm, I thought it also had a ridiculous percentage, but still.

90-93% is more a meme than an actual percentage. Take it seriously if you want to, but to me it's nonsense.

I defiitely support the DatSwan wagon, but I'm not sure I want to put him to L-1 yet.

Don't really think this abundance of caution is warranted because 1) this has been an extra long day 2) it's the weekend 3) you forgot to vote at all at the end of Day 1 and we nearly No Lynched

Are you trying to goad me into voting?

Uh, yes?

[Archetype]

Vote Count 2.7

O (3): ashersky, Galzria, DatSwan
Robz888 (1): mcmcsalot
Galzria (1): O
ashersky(1): IDontPlayThisGame
DatSwan(5): Teproc, Robz888, Eevee, theorel, gkrieg13

Not Voting (1): EFHW
With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch. Day 2 will end January 8th at 7:00 PM

[Galzria]

vote: Datswan

Don't particularly think he's scum, but he's definitely been more off-than-on in the past 24 hours.

More than that though, the numbers aren't here for an O lynch, I'm much less inclined towards a Teproc lynch than I was before, and nobody else has much of a case against them.

My concern with Swan is that almost nobody has defended him, and almost everybody has expressed willingness to vote him. Now, expressing willingness and voting are not the same thing, but still.

Also, it's the weekend, and I don't know what my availability will look like over the next 48 hours.

[O]

...
ash’s point about townO being likelier makes sense to me. Not enough to reverse my reads on them just yet, but something to keep in mind. (If this is confusing to someone, ash and O have been feuding over playstyle disagreements in a couple recent games.)

@Great to have you here, theorel! It’s been a while.

O was disputing this day1.  He claims he only played M100 with ash, and in that game ash was in fact scum.  I glanced over sign-ups for regular games from M94+, and there's no games with both ash and O signed up.
O did claim some level of scum-read on ash d1 here (the whole ash-Robz scumteam thing), but it reads rather facetious to me.  I'm having trouble seeing why town!O necessarily targets ash.  This seems like an over-reaction from ash to me rather than a reasonable argument.  i.e. ash thinks O's scum-read on him is super-strong in spite of only minor comments.

Oh thank god someone is finally able to tell when I’m joking (or at least not super serious) around here. I thought I had lost my ability to communicate completely.

I wonder if it’s because of history or just arbitrary

[O]

Intent to hammer in 4-5 hours, sooner if people want me to ( I doubt it)

Still prefer gals and him jumping on the wagon L-1 is off to me

[O]

Could just as easily be a bus as a scum vote for town I guess. Or gals is town and our flailing at each other will look pretty stupid in retrospect

[Galzria]

Could just as easily be a bus as a scum vote for town I guess. Or gals is town and our flailing at each other will look pretty stupid in retrospect

What an empty statement. Your just full of these, aren't you?

[Galzria]

Intent to hammer in 4-5 hours, sooner if people want me to ( I doubt it)

Still prefer gals and him jumping on the wagon L-1 is off to me

Because I've ever cared when or where I get on wagons? Speaking of arbitrary lol.

[Galzria]

Hey, let's take bets right now:

O doesn't die tonight and also fails to block the kill. Hell, maybe that's a pretty unlikely thing anyway, right? I'll put money on it being a thing every single night until MyLo when he can deal with forcing a 1v1.

[O]

Intent to hammer in 4-5 hours, sooner if people want me to ( I doubt it)

Still prefer gals and him jumping on the wagon L-1 is off to me

Because I've ever cared when or where I get on wagons? Speaking of arbitrary lol.

Not as town you don’t, but that doesn’t help the argument here

[Eevee]

...
ash’s point about townO being likelier makes sense to me. Not enough to reverse my reads on them just yet, but something to keep in mind. (If this is confusing to someone, ash and O have been feuding over playstyle disagreements in a couple recent games.)

@Great to have you here, theorel! It’s been a while.

O was disputing this day1.  He claims he only played M100 with ash, and in that game ash was in fact scum.  I glanced over sign-ups for regular games from M94+, and there's no games with both ash and O signed up.
O did claim some level of scum-read on ash d1 here (the whole ash-Robz scumteam thing), but it reads rather facetious to me.  I'm having trouble seeing why town!O necessarily targets ash.  This seems like an over-reaction from ash to me rather than a reasonable argument.  i.e. ash thinks O's scum-read on him is super-strong in spite of only minor comments.

You raise some valid points, in this and the subsequent post.

I'm strictly going from memory, and now that I think about it more, I think it's been ash going after O more aggressively than the other way around, fwiw. And again, that's just my memory which isn't the greatest. But, yeah, I don't think it's such a good point from ash anymore, I guess.

I'm fine with Swan being hammered. Seems all of a sudden a lot of people mostly agree on what's going on now. The mcmc-Robz situation has people on both sides, but O and Teproc are now townreads for almost everyone, and Swan is getting townread by no one. Does that mean that we are on the right track, or that we are very lost and scum is happy to enable our mistakes?

I don't think Galzria voting for Swan means much, it's really looking like Swan is going to get lynched either way. Votes are less informative when that's the situation.

[IDontPlayThisGame]

If I'm a PR, I'm targeting Robz, Teproc, or Galz.

vote: DatSwan

[iguanaiguana]

Thread locked.

[Archetype]

Vote Count 2.FINAL

O (2): ashersky, DatSwan
Robz888 (1): mcmcsalot
Galzria (1): O
DatSwan(7): Teproc, Robz888, Eevee, theorel, gkrieg13, Galzria, IDontPlayThisGame

Not Voting (1): EFHW
With 12 alive it took 7 to lynch. Day 2 will end uhhhhhh right now

[Archetype]

Pikachu's recovery was always tough to figure out.


DatSwan has been lynched! He was Pikachu the Vanilla Good

Night 2 Start!
Day 3 will resume January 8th at 2:20 pm

[Archetype]

One of the best/worst things about Smash 4 is the ability to air dodge without entering the helpless state. Sadly for Marth, this isn't the case in Melee. One small mistake can mean death (which it did).

EFHW has been killed. She was Marth the Good Tracker.


Day 3 Start!

Vote Count 3.0

Not Voting (10): mcmcsalot, ashersky, Galzria, Robz888, Eevee, gkrieg13, Teproc, theorel, IDontPlayThisGame, O
With 10 alive it takes 6 to lynch. Day 3 will end January 15th at 2:30 PM.

Thread Unlocked

[ashersky]

Robz, gkrieg, Teproc, Galz...all survive N2?  At least one must be scum.

[gkrieg13]

Robz, gkrieg, Teproc, Galz...all survive N2?  At least one must be scum.

I think you should be including yourself and mcmcsalot in that group.

EFHW not being able to claim any targets though is a real bummer.  Did she sub in before or after the night phase?

[theorel]

EFHW subbed in after night phase.  So, unknown if seanbean even submitted a target night1.

EFHW's last reads (WIFOM, but at least we know they're honest):

I haven't formed any strong scum reads. Here's my list from towny to scummy:

EFHW > Teproc, mcmc, theorel > Eevee, gkrieg, IDPTG, Robz, O > Galz, ash, DatSwan

[ashersky]

Robz, gkrieg, Teproc, Galz...all survive N2?  At least one must be scum.

I think you should be including yourself and mcmcsalot in that group.

EFHW not being able to claim any targets though is a real bummer.  Did she sub in before or after the night phase?

I actually feel like Mcmc gets left alive a lot more than he should, and I know my alignment.

But I see your point.

[gkrieg13]

EFHW subbed in after night phase.  So, unknown if seanbean even submitted a target night1.

EFHW's last reads (WIFOM, but at least we know they're honest):

I haven't formed any strong scum reads. Here's my list from towny to scummy:

EFHW > Teproc, mcmc, theorel > Eevee, gkrieg, IDPTG, Robz, O > Galz, ash, DatSwan

I suspect that seanbean didn't actually submit a night action then, seeing as the sub was being looked for when the night began IIRC.

[gkrieg13]

EFHW subbed in after night phase.  So, unknown if seanbean even submitted a target night1.

EFHW's last reads (WIFOM, but at least we know they're honest):

I haven't formed any strong scum reads. Here's my list from towny to scummy:

EFHW > Teproc, mcmc, theorel > Eevee, gkrieg, IDPTG, Robz, O > Galz, ash, DatSwan

Also why are the reads WIFOM?

[theorel]

EFHW subbed in after night phase.  So, unknown if seanbean even submitted a target night1.

EFHW's last reads (WIFOM, but at least we know they're honest):

I haven't formed any strong scum reads. Here's my list from towny to scummy:

EFHW > Teproc, mcmc, theorel > Eevee, gkrieg, IDPTG, Robz, O > Galz, ash, DatSwan

Also why are the reads WIFOM?

Because, scum could have killed her because she had good reads, or because she had bad reads and i.e. mcmc could point to those reads and say: "EFHW thought I was town and was town, so you should all think I'm townier".  If done intentionally, scum can try to increase their towniness by killing people that view them as towny.  Also, scum will often not kill people with scum-reads on them in order to not be outed as strongly as scum.  But then, scum wants to kill people with scum-reads on them because they don't want to be accused.
Hence WIFOM.

[Teproc]

Well, I messed that up. I'll have to reread, I do think the Swan wagon can be informative.

PPE: In my experience, scum kills people they are afraid of, they don't kill for WIFOM.

[Teproc]

Which isn't to say "well EFHW's reads must have been great" at all. But I've never seen a scum kill on someone who had terrible reads because they had terrible reads.

[Robz888]

My guess is EFHW was killed because she was possibly a strong PR, not because her reads were either really good or really bad or something.

It's sort of interesting EFHW got killed instead of Teproc, though.

[Robz888]

Would be really great if someone had useful info.

[theorel]

My guess is EFHW was killed because she was possibly a strong PR, not because her reads were either really good or really bad or something.

It's sort of interesting EFHW got killed instead of Teproc, though.

After thinking more, I agree with this.  Given mass-claim, scum knows exactly who to target based on role.  They killed the doctor first, then the full-time Tracker.

Regarding killing with good reads, I think it probably happens more late-game.  Galz in M100 did that, right?  i.e. he killed O, even though O thought he was town? I mostly just looked over post-game.  I think scum more frequently avoids killing people with good reads out of paranoia, even though it's usually the better move, because people will seldom rethink their reads based on surviving.

[Teproc]

Would be really great if someone had useful info.

It would.

[Teproc]

My guess is EFHW was killed because she was possibly a strong PR, not because her reads were either really good or really bad or something.

It's sort of interesting EFHW got killed instead of Teproc, though.

After thinking more, I agree with this.  Given mass-claim, scum knows exactly who to target based on role.  They killed the doctor first, then the full-time Tracker.

Regarding killing with good reads, I think it probably happens more late-game.  Galz in M100 did that, right?  i.e. he killed O, even though O thought he was town? I mostly just looked over post-game.  I think scum more frequently avoids killing people with good reads out of paranoia, even though it's usually the better move, because people will seldom rethink their reads based on surviving.

It's a bit different when there's only one surviving scum, sure.

[Eevee]

I had a bad feeling when the lynch went through so easily yesterday. It seems like we are doing what scum wants us to be doing.

[theorel]

Is the because we're going along with them, or because we're just at each other's throats?  DatSwan went through easily, but Galz/O/Teproc, and Robz/mcmc were difficult?  But I know I was part of making Galz/O/Teproc difficult, and I'm town.  (although, I guess they had already died down a bit when I replaced in).  Regardless, scum probably helped us lynch DatSwan...which puts scum in:
Teproc, Robz, Eevee, me, gkrieg, Galz, IDPTG.  (Also O had threatened to hammer). 

Off-wagon we have:
mcmc, ash, EFHW, DatSwan, O.
EFHW and DatSwan are dead, O may as well have been on wagon...that leaves mcmc and ash off.

Do we think any scum stayed off-wagon?  If so, that's basically ash and mcmc.  I dunno, I'm gonna just vote: ashersky and see what happens.  Why not?

[gkrieg13]

Is the because we're going along with them, or because we're just at each other's throats?  DatSwan went through easily, but Galz/O/Teproc, and Robz/mcmc were difficult?  But I know I was part of making Galz/O/Teproc difficult, and I'm town.  (although, I guess they had already died down a bit when I replaced in).  Regardless, scum probably helped us lynch DatSwan...which puts scum in:
Teproc, Robz, Eevee, me, gkrieg, Galz, IDPTG.  (Also O had threatened to hammer). 

Off-wagon we have:
mcmc, ash, EFHW, DatSwan, O.
EFHW and DatSwan are dead, O may as well have been on wagon...that leaves mcmc and ash off.

Do we think any scum stayed off-wagon?  If so, that's basically ash and mcmc.  I dunno, I'm gonna just vote: ashersky and see what happens.  Why not?

Why ash over mcmcsalot?

[theorel]

I find ash's play overall scummier than mcmc's.  And I think mcmc has been in the spotlight more than ash, so putting a spotlight on ash would be better.

However, after giving it some more thought, I really think Galzria is scum.  I think that Galzria yesterday in his argument for why Teproc/O were scum was trying to put himself in town-Galz's shoes.  However, I think he already knew that EFHW was an activated Tracker, and he didn't manage to filter that information out of his reasoning.  Essentially, I think if he knew about one more power role beyond his own, then his over-reaction becomes less over-reactive and more reasoned reaction to the number of Power Roles he's seen.

That seems less convincing written than it seemed in my head.  I'm still going to vote: Galzria though.

I think IDPTG's hammer is also suspicious.  He didn't want to put DatSwan to L-1, but then after Robz goaded him, he was fine with hammering.  I'd like to hear an explanation there as to why he changed his mind that severely...after all L-1 doesn't end the day, it just adds more pressure.  Datswan still could have responded at that point, for instance.  The hammer ends all discussion for certain.

[IDontPlayThisGame]

I think IDPTG's hammer is also suspicious.  He didn't want to put DatSwan to L-1, but then after Robz goaded him, he was fine with hammering.  I'd like to hear an explanation there as to why he changed his mind that severely...after all L-1 doesn't end the day, it just adds more pressure.  Datswan still could have responded at that point, for instance.  The hammer ends all discussion for certain.

Good point. vote: Robz

[Galzria]

Well, I either saved myself and killed EFHW, or did nothing.

I redirected to EFHW last night. I don't -believe- scum tried to kill me (especially if I'm correct in my stated reads from yesterday), so I think the kill was natural. The only thing above me in priority (still alive/possible) is Gkrieg, and I doubt he messed with much.

My thought process was that O, if town, was likely to target me to Roleblock. He got ascetic wrong and I was hopeful he got order resolution wrong as well. I also thought scum would have a player with lesser suspicion perform the kill so I didn't want to re-target  to a top read. That brought me to Robz/EFHW as my top two scummy-but-under-the-radar choices. I picked EFHW.

With that said, Robz and Theorel both come across as scum here:

Robz's "Sure would be nice to have more information here" sounds like he knows, as scum, that they tried to shoot me last night but EFHW wound up dead. Like he has foresight into shenanigans.

Theorel takes it a step further - again, his post reads like he knows that I must come out with this information, and is looking to preempt it by calling me out as scum. It's very direct and very targeted, and it explains why he's having trouble even justifying his own case.

With 10 alive (3 scum), a mislynch today places the game into into MyLo {8, 3} tomorrow.

This indicates that O is -probably- Town, as I believe that if scum targeted me to kill then it's because they believed I would redirect to my biggest scum read.

I'll go with a vote: Robz for now.

On another note:

Claimed or known PR's:

Joseph
EFHW
Mcmc
Galz
Teproc
O

Mcmc, who did you target for neighborizer N1?

[O]

Well, I either saved myself and killed EFHW, or did nothing.

I redirected to EFHW last night. I don't -believe- scum tried to kill me (especially if I'm correct in my stated reads from yesterday), so I think the kill was natural. The only thing above me in priority (still alive/possible) is Gkrieg, and I doubt he messed with much.

My thought process was that O, if town, was likely to target me to Roleblock. He got ascetic wrong and I was hopeful he got order resolution wrong as well.

This is absurd. There's a massive difference between accepting that someone could misread a role and assuming that they will. I knew my roleblock was useless against you anyways if you wanted to perform a kill and did not target you.

I read the role description literally to make my mistake. Your proposed mistake involves me not reading the highly visual order resolution at the bottom of the screen.

[O]

From your perspective: If I'm town, you would have redirected me to block... EFHW? She was that strong of a scum read that you wanted to roleblock a potential tracker after giving me shit for roleblocking a one shot doctor?

If I'm scum, do you think EFHW is my scumbuddy after she went after me? Why not just redirect back to me? 


Seriously if you thought I was going to target you as either alignment -- it makes no sense as town

[O]

Do agree that its slightly concerning that Theorel votes for Galzria before Galzria claims to have potentially redirected a kill...


But mitigating that is the fact that EFHW is probably a prime kill target anyways, so regardless of if Galzria was town, it'd be no guarantee the kill was redirected from him anyways.

[gkrieg13]

I think IDPTG's hammer is also suspicious.  He didn't want to put DatSwan to L-1, but then after Robz goaded him, he was fine with hammering.  I'd like to hear an explanation there as to why he changed his mind that severely...after all L-1 doesn't end the day, it just adds more pressure.  Datswan still could have responded at that point, for instance.  The hammer ends all discussion for certain.

Good point. vote: Robz

Good point. vote: IDPTG

[Robz888]

Galz, I have no “foresight into shenanigans,” I was just hoping someone was going to know something.

Oh and vote: Galz

I’ll post my full case tomorrow but I don’t think efhwh died because you redirected to her (why would scum shoot you? And why would town!you want efhw to die??), I think she died because you killed her.

[Robz888]

Theorel’s points about IDP make sense too. I’ve found him scummy all game but we can never get a wagon going there. Probably that means something.

[Robz888]

And is there a reason Tep and O are holding back night actions? I guess they would say if they thought it would tell us anything. O, if you blocked Galz last night, you should speak up, that would actually mitigate my scum read on him.

[O]

And is there a reason Tep and O are holding back night actions? I guess they would say if they thought it would tell us anything. O, if you blocked Galz last night, you should speak up, that would actually mitigate my scum read on him.

I pretty much confirmed I did not block Galzria last night in my last post.

[Eevee]

O’s case on Galzria is compelling.

[Galzria]

Look, everybody all good with lynching me just like Swan. You're all so gullible it's ridiculous. Pay attention people, and stop being sheep. Use those individual thinking skills and actually look for scum.

[O]

Look, everybody all good with lynching me just like Swan. You're all so gullible it's ridiculous. Pay attention people, and stop being sheep. Use those individual thinking skills and actually look for scum.

I am.

why EFHW?

[Galzria]

Look, everybody all good with lynching me just like Swan. You're all so gullible it's ridiculous. Pay attention people, and stop being sheep. Use those individual thinking skills and actually look for scum.

I am.

why EFHW?

Because I scum read you yesterday, and there was a non-zero chance you would attempt to roleblock me last night (as town or scum). You're correct, anybody who looks at the setup resolution wouldn't target me (but you had already messed the setup up once) - but if you assume that, and are in my position, then you assume nobody will ever target you (because why bother?). You're the only claimed role I could imagine doing something with having your power (ie. you targeting me), and I didn't think scum would have their scummiest players perform the kill (If you are scum, for example, I doubt you performed the kill).

As I scum read you yesterday, something you said raised flags on EFHW - Mainly that the play on solo-scum you (Teproc isn't your partner) didn't add up because I "didn't take into account a Tracker". You're right, I didn't. But that wouldn't have mattered if EFHW was your partner. Add in that, despite what you've said here a few posts ago, I felt EFHW was doing her best to derail trains against you later in the day (she was on early - a good place for a partner, but then jumped off when the heat got turned up and went into defense mode on you). This put her towards the top of my list of "potential O partners".

Honestly, hell if I know if scum actually targeted me to kill. The only way that really makes sense to me is if:

A) You're town and scum wanted/expected me to redirect to you
B) You're scum and thought you could Roleblock and then kill me (obviously, again, missing the setup resolution)

But really, I expected none of two things to happen to me:
1) Scum tries to kill me
2) You try to roleblock me

And in both cases I was ok with redirecting to EFHW. It's great to pretend I should've known she was town and all - but you know, town doesn't actually know these things.

[O]

I honestly didn't come into today thinking I'd be gunning for your lynch but this just doesn't add up in the slightest from the town!Galz perspective

1) If I'm scum, you'd much rather redirect back to me than guess EFHW. If I'm town, why is anyone trying to kill you? Teproc I guess?
2) Given that you scum read me yesterday, you are claiming you then operated under the assumption that I 1) would continue to misread the setup (If I'm scum, why believe that I misread it to start with...?) and 2) Wouldn't go over my plan with my scumbuddies?

Like would the other scum just be sharing my delusions, or am I not talking to them in this scenario.

I get that town!Galz doesn't know EFHW was town last night. But you scumread me. Your one claim of suspicion on EFHW is a scum-pairing where I'm the other scum. It just seems I would be the redirect target.

[Galzria]

Why would I redirect you? I don't believe scum!O does the NK, and I don't believe scum try and kill me if you're scum because of the CHANCE that I redirect to you.

Seriously, what at all do I gain by redirecting to you if I think you're scum?

[O]

ah

yeah, fair enough

[Galzria]

I mean, you realize I don't ACTUALLY have a power unless somebody targets me with SOMETHING, right? The odds I do anything at all are already extremely small regardless, and that only happens if somebody fucks up the setup.

[Galzria]

[Teproc]

Yeah, I don't think Galz's night action is great, but I guess I don't see how town!Galz would use it in a productive way anyway, and I don't see what scum!Galz gains from claiming this either. I guess it can alleviate the whole "PRs are suspicious because why did scum shoot EFHW instead" maybe ? Meh.

I think people should take more time to reread (I will at some point this week when I have the time). We got day 2 very, very wrong.

[mcmcsalot]

Coincidences are adding up. I have lots to say and still need to read pages 36 through now. I’ve only skimmed. Sorry final cruise day and flight days took more time than expected.

Will be reading when I can and catching up by this evening.

[Eevee]

Vote: ash

I'm not not suspicious of Galzria, but this doesn't seem like something that he would need to lie about if he was scum. Interested to hear what mcmc has to say, I'd like to update my read on him.

(Robz's case on Galzria interests me as well, if it's still coming.)

[O]

The scummiest thing about galz is choosing EHFW, not not choosing me. Mostly because it’s hard to see her as the largest or second largest after me scum read.

I ‘m slightly worried i’m a lamb being led to slaughter by Eevee, because I seem to be agreeing with him all the time

[Eevee]

Well, I feel like a lamb being led to slaughter as well, if that's any consolation.

I don't associate it with a single person like you are, I'm worried it might be Teproc, or you (top townreads), but mostly I'm just worried of some shadowy presence guiding me and the rest of town from one catastrophe to another. Day 1, we couldn't get a lynch so I had to lynch my top townread - a win for scum. Day 2, my preferred lynch suddenly became so easy everyone supported it (does that ever happen when you are right?).


Things always get so much easier when you nail the first scum, though. I really echo Robz's sentiment. I wish some PR created a 1-1 for us to forward with, that would be really helpful right now.

[IDontPlayThisGame]

Theorel’s points about IDP make sense too. I’ve found him scummy all game but we can never get a wagon going there. Probably that means something.

It means that scum doesn't bother trying to lynch me when there are stronger players around. I don't think scum would try defending me as either alignment- take a look at how well that worked for schadd in my scum game. That doesn't mean that scum wouldn't lynch me if the opportunity presents itself, just that if better mislynches are available, why not push there first.

It could also be indicative of them not being at all concerned with my possible PR since if I find someone, it might not even be a 1 for 1 at which point all I've done is help end the game.

Furthermore, the only game where I've been on the winning side was when I was mislynched D1 (which was also the only game I've been lynched in). Make of that what you will, but I'm pretty sure it means I lose games for my side far more than I help win them. Why do you think I put Pichu on my list?

[IDontPlayThisGame]

For that matter I also considered Pikachu since I could attempt to redirect the NK onto myself.

[IDontPlayThisGame]

However, I think he already knew that EFHW was an activated Tracker, and he didn't manage to filter that information out of his reasoning.

How did scum!Galz know EFHW was active N2?

[Eevee]

Meh, I'm not a big fan of arguments that are meant to absolve one of the responsibility of their actions and votes. I don't imagine your past results actually have very effective predicting power for your future winrate, especially as town.

You should have more confidence in yourself if you are indeed town feeling this way, it makes you less susceptible to scum manipulation as well. I've never considered you a weak player in any way, shape or form!

[IDontPlayThisGame]

Meh, I'm not a big fan of arguments that are meant to absolve one of the responsibility of their actions and votes.

That wasn't my point. I'll address that later. That was just in response to why wagons on me haven't gained traction.

[IDontPlayThisGame]

Actually, I'll do it now.

D1: not a whole lot of posts and no vote at the end which helped contribute to a no-lynch scenario that was barely avoided

Yeah. Not much to say there other than my previous explanation. Bad play and rather anti-town. I wasn't at training every day and it's not too much to ask for me to sit down and spend 30-60 minutes on this game each IRL day.

D2: similar lack of posts and bad hammer

I went for the hammer because O had already posted intent to hammer, I had a scumread on DatSwan, and since PR has nothing to do with alignment there wasn't much I felt DatSwan could say to sway my opinion at that point.

Anything I'm forgetting? I haven't done much this game so this ended up shorter than I thought it was going to be.

This isn't meant to "absolve [me] of the responsibility of [my] actions and votes", just to give everyone context and my opinion. If people have questions, I'll try to be around to answer them today.

[theorel]

However, I think he already knew that EFHW was an activated Tracker, and he didn't manage to filter that information out of his reasoning.

How did scum!Galz know EFHW was active N2?

I'm supposing that scum used their Master Hand questions to determine which power roles were active.  This is the best explanation I have for the EFHW death.  I don't see a world where scum takes the chance of shooting Galzria as claimed diverter.  That's a crazy level of risk.

I think I got this right, though I haven't gone back to check: Scum first was able to ask Master Hand questions N1.  They were answered at the end of N1/beginning of D2. 
Now we get into the speculation:
Scum intentionally shot EFHW over Teproc or O.  This suggests to me that scum knew that EFHW was active (I'm of course assuming Teproc/O are town here.  If I'm wrong about that, well all of my arguments fail).
The way that scum would know that is through the Master Hand questions (since the mass-claim conveniently told scum exactly who had which power...mass-claims are bad!)
Assuming that is the case, then scum knew heading into D2 that EFHW was active.
Teproc and O claim, mcmc was already known to be active at that point, Joseph was also known to be active, and dead.

Now, if we assume that those players are all town, and Galzria is scum with this extra information.  Galzria attempts to put himself in town-Galzria's shoes.  He sees 4 town power roles, +1 he secretly knows of, +himself.  He says, "this is too many power roles", and "O/Teproc power role interaction is convenient, so they are the ones that would give me most doubt were I town with this info."  He proceeds to make that argument in thread for a while, even though most other people expressed that it didn't feel like too many power roles...even knowing that Galzria was one (as he claimed part-way through).  Now we all know that EFHW is active...and that actually does feel like it might be too many power roles (to me).  My thinking was that if Galzria had that information yesterday, then his argument makes more sense.

That said, I went back and looked at his arguments...and he consistently got the number of players in this game wrong.  He kept saying it was ~7 power roles out of 12 or 13 players, when there are(were) in fact 14 players in this game.  In much the same way that 1 more PR makes things seem more reasonable, 1-2 fewer players also makes his argument more reasonable.  We're certainly on the upper-end of PR quantity in this game...
Bah, I don't want to give this up...I liked scum-galz theory.  I like the idea of him and idptg getting on-wagon when they know the NK will be off-wagon, in order to avoid scrutiny.  But, I'm probably subjecting myself to confirmation-bias.  Thinking is hard.  Bah, unvote

btw, @IDPTG:I doubt you're active (based on # of PR arguments above), but if you are, and you've visited people...you have 2 players that you know are town.  You don't have to find scum to be useful...and if you are active, and want to conceal that fact, make sure you breadcrumb who you've cleared. Because that makes the whole finding scum in death thing more useful than just a 1-for-1 trade.

[IDontPlayThisGame]

Are you saying scum knows every active role or they managed to choose EFHW N1 and therefore aim the N2 kill?

Also, no, I wouldn't. Off the top of my head, gkrieg and O can mess with my results and so could Galz if I made a mistake and targeted him. So no, active!me wouldn't have cleared two people. Also, faust was killed N1 and was on my list. So a faust result wouldn't be very useful.

[theorel]

Are you saying scum knows every active role or they managed to choose EFHW N1 and therefore aim the N2 kill?

Also, no, I wouldn't. Off the top of my head, gkrieg and O can mess with my results and so could Galz if I made a mistake and targeted him. So no, active!me wouldn't have cleared two people. Also, faust was killed N1 and was on my list. So a faust result wouldn't be very useful.

Now we get into the speculation:
Scum intentionally shot EFHW over Teproc or O.  This suggests to me that scum knew that EFHW was active (I'm of course assuming Teproc/O are town here.  If I'm wrong about that, well all of my arguments fail).
The way that scum would know that is through the Master Hand questions (since the mass-claim conveniently told scum exactly who had which power...mass-claims are bad!)

I'm saying scum picked EFHW N1 for the Master Hand question.  I think that for the reasons above.

[mcmcsalot]

So im on page 40 and i still dont know how the hell datswan is about to be lynched, angry fsaces

[mcmcsalot]

OKAY CAUGHT UP. All info out time.

I am active and neighborized IDPTG Night 1 and Night 2. The reason being my neighborization is successful even if someone dies the same night I neighborize them. So if idptg is active which he has claimed to be and turned up dead in the night I could get the exact person he targeted. Night one IDPTG claimed to target me and recieve town, night two he claimed to have targeted galz (before galz claimed) and also mentioned how dumb he felt for doing that as galz is fox. Galz targeted the dead townie.

Part of me wants to yell too much of a coincidence and say the scum team contains idptg/galz and probably one of robz/gkrieg/eevee.

Teprox is absolutely town, scum latched on the second he aimed for datswan and I think all three were on datswans wagon.

[O]

OKAY CAUGHT UP. All info out time.

I am active and neighborized IDPTG Night 1 and Night 2. The reason being my neighborization is successful even if someone dies the same night I neighborize them. So if idptg is active which he has claimed to be and turned up dead in the night I could get the exact person he targeted. Night one IDPTG claimed to target me and recieve town, night two he claimed to have targeted galz (before galz claimed) and also mentioned how dumb he felt for doing that as galz is fox. Galz targeted the dead townie.

Part of me wants to yell too much of a coincidence and say the scum team contains idptg/galz and probably one of robz/gkrieg/eevee.

Teprox is absolutely town, scum latched on the second he aimed for datswan and I think all three were on datswans wagon.

So you're saying ... you and Ashersky are town? by being off wagon

Sounds like you're trying to get townpoints in any way possible and haven't really looked at Ashersky at all frankly

[mcmcsalot]

OKAY CAUGHT UP. All info out time.

I am active and neighborized IDPTG Night 1 and Night 2. The reason being my neighborization is successful even if someone dies the same night I neighborize them. So if idptg is active which he has claimed to be and turned up dead in the night I could get the exact person he targeted. Night one IDPTG claimed to target me and recieve town, night two he claimed to have targeted galz (before galz claimed) and also mentioned how dumb he felt for doing that as galz is fox. Galz targeted the dead townie.

Part of me wants to yell too much of a coincidence and say the scum team contains idptg/galz and probably one of robz/gkrieg/eevee.

Teprox is absolutely town, scum latched on the second he aimed for datswan and I think all three were on datswans wagon.

So you're saying ... you and Ashersky are town? by being off wagon

Sounds like you're trying to get townpoints in any way possible and haven't really looked at Ashersky at all frankly

I also think you teproc and theorel are town... I wasn't trying to clear non wagoners I was more implying that I do think the scum team forced the datswan lynch through as opposed to Day one where I think they were happy to let a no lynch go through

[Galzria]

@IDPTG: Any thoughts on the whole me/O/gkrieg thing (and on Galz while you're at it) ? What about Robe v mcmc ?

I think a gkrieg flip tells us a lot, but I don"t think that's a reason to lynch him. Not sure what I think if you yet. As for O, I've scumread people in the past for getting set-ups as wrong as this Ascetic deal, but it's never panned out well so I'm inclined to think it's town!O.

As for Robz vs mcmc, I think mcmc is the townier of the two, but it's not a super strong read.

That said, I think scum!mcmc flipping would also be rather informative.

This is after he had a town result on you?

[Galzria]

I would feel pretty stupid in his shoes having targeted me too - especially since, ya know, he obviously thought about these things before.

What happens if Pichu is Evil?

Does Pill Vendor or Lightning Rod resolve first if both are used the same night?

I don't think ashersky's claim is indicative of much. I think Joseph is being ridiculous threatening to claim at L-5 as I don't see how it helps town. I don't have much to say about faust/Galz/gkrieg/mcmc as I think I read them even more poorly than I do everyone else.

I don't like all the redirection going on. If scum has either Mewtwo or Fox and is confident Mewtwo/Fox won't be Roleblocked, they could do some fancy stuff with PRs/the NK. Speaking of which, do we want to claim what everyone will do tonight if they are a PR à la Weak Neighborizer in M110? It didn't go very well there since everyone picked faust but I don't know how it would turn out here.

[mcmcsalot]

So yea its a bummer because I already had a slight scum read on you galz and now he claimed to have targeted you before you claimed to have targeted the dead townie which leads me towards partner implications rather than lucky scum from idptg. IDPTG has essentially told me nothing other than confirming my own towniness and that of a dead town player.

[mcmcsalot]

I think galz has done the majority of the work for the scum team, idptg has kept me in the dark and been a "non-factor" and either robz/gkroeg/eevee are a thrid scum. Robz most likely because of his weak case on me and galz distracting from him then its a big toss up between lurky replacement non read generating eevee and so so so so slightly scummy gkrieg.

[mcmcsalot]

vote: galz has to be my best guess. done too much help for scum to be town ie lynching townies and allowing for potential loss of cop result ect

[Galzria]

vote: galz has to be my best guess. done too much help for scum to be town ie lynching townies and allowing for potential loss of cop result ect

Bwahahaha

Weakest case ever lol

[mcmcsalot]

vote: galz has to be my best guess. done too much help for scum to be town ie lynching townies and allowing for potential loss of cop result ect

Bwahahaha

Weakest case ever lol

why dont you argue with me about it for 5 days and then have us lynch someone scum choses with 6 hous left

[Galzria]

Wagon 1:
gkrieg13, Galzria, chairs, Faust, Robz888, Teproc, Eevee, mcmcsalot

Wagon 2:
Teproc, Robz888, Eevee, theorel, gkrieg13, Galzria, IDontPlayThisGame


Commons: Teproc, Robz, Eevee, Chairs (Theorel), Gkrieg, Galzria

done too much help for scum to be town ie lynching townies

Obviously a scum trait. Just see above.

and allowing for potential loss of cop result ect

Just... Lol. The thought process behind how that works out is just immaculate.

[Robz888]

OKAY CAUGHT UP. All info out time.

I am active and neighborized IDPTG Night 1 and Night 2. The reason being my neighborization is successful even if someone dies the same night I neighborize them. So if idptg is active which he has claimed to be and turned up dead in the night I could get the exact person he targeted. Night one IDPTG claimed to target me and recieve town, night two he claimed to have targeted galz (before galz claimed) and also mentioned how dumb he felt for doing that as galz is fox. Galz targeted the dead townie.

Part of me wants to yell too much of a coincidence and say the scum team contains idptg/galz and probably one of robz/gkrieg/eevee.

Teprox is absolutely town, scum latched on the second he aimed for datswan and I think all three were on datswans wagon.

I am slightly confused by how you are wording this, although I don't think it matters, but to be clear... you neighborize someone during the night, but the QT doesn't open until day right?I think that's how it worked with me, it was Night 0 though, maybe that was different. When you say "night two he claimed to have targeted Galz" you mean that he claimed, like recently, during the beginning of this current day, Day 3, to have targeted Galz Night 2, yes?

Did IDP realize it was reeeeeeeeeeeeeeally stupid to have targeted Galz before you pointed it out, or did you tell him?

So, if I am following this correctly, even if it was town!IDP and scum!Galz, and IDP did target Galz, he would have been redirected to EFHW, who was town, and IDP would not have actually died even though he tried to visit scum. Right?

The scum!IDP theory would be, he set this up with scum!Galz, or he knew Galz was town so it was safe to visit him. (Visiting works the same for scum-aligned Pichu, I take it? Have to visit town to stay alive? I guess that makes sense.)

Despite already thinking Galz/IDP are like the scummiest people here, I'm not actually sure this makes either of them more likely to be scum.

The only way mcmc could be scum here is if IDP is, though. Unless gkrieg messed with IDP on Night 1, but that seems unlikely.

[Galzria]

vote: galz has to be my best guess. done too much help for scum to be town ie lynching townies and allowing for potential loss of cop result ect

Bwahahaha

Weakest case ever lol

why dont you argue with me about it for 5 days and then have us lynch someone scum choses with 6 hous left

Right, I made the Swan lynch happen. Why don't you actually reread the thread? There was no other lynch happening. I guess I could've done like you did and waste my vote attempting for a no lynch?

[Robz888]

Mcmc, I'm not sure why you end this case with a Galz vote. Isn't your thinking "IDP is scum and Galz is likely partner" but that IDP is really the caught scum here?

[Galzria]

Robz, your last statement about mcmc not being scum if IDPTG isn't doesn't really follow. Of course he could be scum with town!IDPTG - He's just, supposedly, reporting facts, right? That's not alignment indicative.

[Robz888]

Robz, your last statement about mcmc not being scum if IDPTG isn't doesn't really follow. Of course he could be scum with town!IDPTG - He's just, supposedly, reporting facts, right? That's not alignment indicative.

He says IDP visited him Night 1. Town!IDP + scum!mcmc = IDP already being dead.

[Galzria]

I love mcmc's coming in far after the fact with the holier-than-thou attitude about the Swan lynch.

[Galzria]

Robz, your last statement about mcmc not being scum if IDPTG isn't doesn't really follow. Of course he could be scum with town!IDPTG - He's just, supposedly, reporting facts, right? That's not alignment indicative.

He says IDP visited him Night 1. Town!IDP + scum!mcmc = IDP already being dead.

Ah, yes.

[Galzria]

Robz, your last statement about mcmc not being scum if IDPTG isn't doesn't really follow. Of course he could be scum with town!IDPTG - He's just, supposedly, reporting facts, right? That's not alignment indicative.

He says IDP visited him Night 1. Town!IDP + scum!mcmc = IDP already being dead.

Ah, yes.

Although I don't get idptg's reads then d2 - because while he was townie-ish on Mcmc, it certainly wasn't a strong read.

[gkrieg13]

Sorry, getting used to the new schedule. Will get to this tomorrow.

[Robz888]

So Day 2 begins, IDP realizes he's in a neighborhood with mcmc, he's all like "sweet, guess what, I just found out you were town." Yes? Mcmc neighborized IDP at the same time IDP (supposedly) visited mcmc.

[mcmcsalot]

OKAY CAUGHT UP. All info out time.

I am active and neighborized IDPTG Night 1 and Night 2. The reason being my neighborization is successful even if someone dies the same night I neighborize them. So if idptg is active which he has claimed to be and turned up dead in the night I could get the exact person he targeted. Night one IDPTG claimed to target me and recieve town, night two he claimed to have targeted galz (before galz claimed) and also mentioned how dumb he felt for doing that as galz is fox. Galz targeted the dead townie.

Part of me wants to yell too much of a coincidence and say the scum team contains idptg/galz and probably one of robz/gkrieg/eevee.

Teprox is absolutely town, scum latched on the second he aimed for datswan and I think all three were on datswans wagon.

I am slightly confused by how you are wording this, although I don't think it matters, but to be clear... you neighborize someone during the night, but the QT doesn't open until day right?I think that's how it worked with me, it was Night 0 though, maybe that was different. When you say "night two he claimed to have targeted Galz" you mean that he claimed, like recently, during the beginning of this current day, Day 3, to have targeted Galz Night 2, yes?

Did IDP realize it was reeeeeeeeeeeeeeally stupid to have targeted Galz before you pointed it out, or did you tell him?

So, if I am following this correctly, even if it was town!IDP and scum!Galz, and IDP did target Galz, he would have been redirected to EFHW, who was town, and IDP would not have actually died even though he tried to visit scum. Right?

The scum!IDP theory would be, he set this up with scum!Galz, or he knew Galz was town so it was safe to visit him. (Visiting works the same for scum-aligned Pichu, I take it? Have to visit town to stay alive? I guess that makes sense.)

Despite already thinking Galz/IDP are like the scummiest people here, I'm not actually sure this makes either of them more likely to be scum.

The only way mcmc could be scum here is if IDP is, though. Unless gkrieg messed with IDP on Night 1, but that seems unlikely.

Yes I neighborize at night and the QT opens at day start. THe interesting thing is if say Night 2 I target IDPTG and Night two IDPTG dies My qt with him still opens Day 3. Yes IDPTG claimed to have targeted Glaz night two during the beginning of this day 3. He stated it was stupid for him to target galz before I said anyhting today. IDPTG did feel towny to me during early day two and it was the end of day 2 and the night/beginning of day 3 that he began worrying me.

yes if IDP is town and Galz scum and galz did redirect to efhw IDP would still be alive.

I think scum!idp is non active and set up with scum!galz a convinient way to not be forced into confirming someone as town to me. Scum kills efhw and idptg claims to target galz. Glaz protects his partner by claiming to have redirected to efhw so idptg doesnt get any usefull result. end result idptg has told me im town and soemone dead is town.

I think it makes alot of sense for them to be scum why dont you?

true with that last part either IDP and I are both scum or gkrieg messed with idp night 1.

[mcmcsalot]

I love mcmc's coming in far after the fact with the holier-than-thou attitude about the Swan lynch.

sorry I was on vacation, you knew that. this feels like scum!galz trying to evoke emotion. It was a bad lynch period

[mcmcsalot]

Robz, your last statement about mcmc not being scum if IDPTG isn't doesn't really follow. Of course he could be scum with town!IDPTG - He's just, supposedly, reporting facts, right? That's not alignment indicative.

He says IDP visited him Night 1. Town!IDP + scum!mcmc = IDP already being dead.

Ah, yes.

Although I don't get idptg's reads then d2 - because while he was townie-ish on Mcmc, it certainly wasn't a strong read.

at the time I felt it was IDPTG trying to not be obvious about investigating me, now I just think it was scummy of him

[mcmcsalot]

Mcmc, I'm not sure why you end this case with a Galz vote. Isn't your thinking "IDP is scum and Galz is likely partner" but that IDP is really the caught scum here?

True but town!IDPTG could just have made a terrible play in targetting galz, we already accepted town!O making a terrible play, I already felt scummy on galz and scum!galz could have know scum killing EFHW it would also be smart to direct from himself to efhw.

Really I could lynch IDPTG as well

[mcmcsalot]

So Day 2 begins, IDP realizes he's in a neighborhood with mcmc, he's all like "sweet, guess what, I just found out you were town." Yes? Mcmc neighborized IDP at the same time IDP (supposedly) visited mcmc.

yep that didnt happen.

SO IDPTG was weary of trusting me. After a few posts asking how I was sure he was active (I jumped out the gate asking his target and explaining why I targeted him and how even if he died I could get his result) then he decieded me and gkrieg hadnt devised some scum plan where gkreig rediredted IDPTG from me to a town member whilst I neighborized him so I could trick him into trusting me. He wasnt particularly active in qt but neither was I as I was on the cruise ship

[Robz888]

I think it makes alot of sense for them to be scum why dont you?

I do think it makes sense. It's just, there's nothing there that makes it "yes, this has to be what happened."

Don't misunderstand me, I think it's valuable info you presented, I'm definitely glad you full claimed.

[O]

Mcmc, I'm not sure why you end this case with a Galz vote. Isn't your thinking "IDP is scum and Galz is likely partner" but that IDP is really the caught scum here?

True but town!IDPTG could just have made a terrible play in targetting galz, we already accepted town!O making a terrible play, I already felt scummy on galz and scum!galz could have know scum killing EFHW it would also be smart to direct from himself to efhw.

Really I could lynch IDPTG as well

still don't think it would be an objectively terrible play if I had been correctly informed, FWIW.

[O]

What are the two wagons you posted on, Galz?

[Galzria]

What are the two wagons you posted on, Galz?

He claimed I was scum because I lynched town. Those were the wagons EoD 1 & 2. Yes, I was on both lynches. D1 we damn near almost no lynched, and D2 there was no consensus (or even close) on any other candidate. Certainly not my picks at the time. And I am far from the only person on both wagons, which disproves a point that he already knows is rubbish anyway.

[O]

What are the two wagons you posted on, Galz?

He claimed I was scum because I lynched town. Those were the wagons EoD 1 & 2. Yes, I was on both lynches. D1 we damn near almost no lynched, and D2 there was no consensus (or even close) on any other candidate. Certainly not my picks at the time. And I am far from the only person on both wagons, which disproves a point that he already knows is rubbish anyway.

I'm just amused how frequently I end up just off these wagons. Happened in m100 too.

[Galzria]

It's hilarious how Mcmc screams about too many coincidences for:

IDPTG targets Galzria
Galzria targets EFHW

But defends:

O targets Teproc
Teproc targets Faust

As completely reasonable.

[Galzria]

I would like to hear from IDPTG on the topic of targeting me. He was obviously aware of resolution earlier in the game. Did he not think I would use my power N1 and N2? I'm one of the highest NK targets on f.ds as town - and even though I had diminished the likelihood scum targeted me N2 by claiming, I don't think it's all that unlikely for me to redirect.

[IDontPlayThisGame]

I would like to hear from IDPTG on the topic of targeting me. He was obviously aware of resolution earlier in the game. Did he not think I would use my power N1 and N2? I'm one of the highest NK targets on f.ds as town - and even though I had diminished the likelihood scum targeted me N2 by claiming, I don't think it's all that unlikely for me to redirect.

I'll look at the rest later, but yeah, that was a braindead move on my part. I got mixed up and I don't think calling people by flavor names rather than roles helped much. I normally pay a lot of attention to set-up and don't make mistakes like that.

[Robz888]

vote: IDP

[gkrieg13]

So Day 2 begins, IDP realizes he's in a neighborhood with mcmc, he's all like "sweet, guess what, I just found out you were town." Yes? Mcmc neighborized IDP at the same time IDP (supposedly) visited mcmc.

yep that didnt happen.

SO IDPTG was weary of trusting me. After a few posts asking how I was sure he was active (I jumped out the gate asking his target and explaining why I targeted him and how even if he died I could get his result) then he decieded me and gkrieg hadnt devised some scum plan where gkreig rediredted IDPTG from me to a town member whilst I neighborized him so I could trick him into trusting me. He wasnt particularly active in qt but neither was I as I was on the cruise ship

I didn’t target IDPTG either night.

[gkrieg13]

So Day 2 begins, IDP realizes he's in a neighborhood with mcmc, he's all like "sweet, guess what, I just found out you were town." Yes? Mcmc neighborized IDP at the same time IDP (supposedly) visited mcmc.

yep that didnt happen.

SO IDPTG was weary of trusting me. After a few posts asking how I was sure he was active (I jumped out the gate asking his target and explaining why I targeted him and how even if he died I could get his result) then he decieded me and gkrieg hadnt devised some scum plan where gkreig rediredted IDPTG from me to a town member whilst I neighborized him so I could trick him into trusting me. He wasnt particularly active in qt but neither was I as I was on the cruise ship

I didn’t target IDPTG either night.

Just reread that and realized what you actually said. That seems like a dumb plan for us to do instead of just redirecting him on to scum if we were both scum though.

[gkrieg13]

Mcmc reads as town with all of this, and galz is a lot scummier. I still think IDPTG targeting galzria is the scummiest mixed with my scum read I had on IDPTG already.

[Archetype]

Vote Count 3.1

Galzria (1): mcmcsalot
Robz888 (2): IDontPlayThisGame, Galzria
IDontPlayThisGame (2): gkrieg13, Robz888
ashersky (1): Eevee

Not Voting (4): ashersky, Teproc, O, theorel
With 10 alive it takes 6 to lynch. Day 3 will end January 15th at 2:30 PM.

[O]

after careful consideration i've decided to return to my original position.

Scummy: you guys
Not scummy: me, mostly. Maybe Eevee. But I literally never scumread the guy so I never trust this townread.


This is not really a spot I enjoy being in. Although I admit it still feels better than me being lynched.

[Galzria]

vote: idptg

I don't think he's a PR, and I don't think he targeted me (or mcmc for that matter).

[O]

I definitely don't think IDPTG is scum AND a PR AND targeted Galzria. Those things combined would be too stupid.. More stupid than targeting Galzria as town, which was already stupid.

But he could always have been scum + pr + tried to kill Galzria, thus making his action claim a safe one from the potential Teproc track.

[Teproc]

Ok, so I still haven't had the time to reread, but on the mcmc thing:

mcmc is very likely town
Galz and IDPTG are most likely not scum together
IDPTG seems super scummy

Right ? His choice of targets is 100% that of a scum Neighborizer : clearing the guy who neighborized him to gain his confidence, and then neighborizing someone who's about to die... except nope, Galz didn't die. I guess that involves scum shooting Galz, which is pretty dangerous... maybe that doesn't work after all ?

Hm. Ok, so does Galz/IDPTG make sense after all ? Eh, maybe. I still need to reread I think.

[mcmcsalot]

Ok, so I still haven't had the time to reread, but on the mcmc thing:

mcmc is very likely town
Galz and IDPTG are most likely not scum together
IDPTG seems super scummy

Right ? His choice of targets is 100% that of a scum Neighborizer : clearing the guy who neighborized him to gain his confidence, and then neighborizing someone who's about to die... except nope, Galz didn't die. I guess that involves scum shooting Galz, which is pretty dangerous... maybe that doesn't work after all ?

Hm. Ok, so does Galz/IDPTG make sense after all ? Eh, maybe. I still need to reread I think.

This

[theorel]

Are you saying scum knows every active role or they managed to choose EFHW N1 and therefore aim the N2 kill?

Also, no, I wouldn't. Off the top of my head, gkrieg and O can mess with my results and so could Galz if I made a mistake and targeted him. So no, active!me wouldn't have cleared two people. Also, faust was killed N1 and was on my list. So a faust result wouldn't be very useful.

I just don't even...Why would you breadcrumb your useless Galz result, and not your useful mcmc result?  I mean, yes you can be blocked/redirected, but it's really pretty unlikely, especially when O has already claimed to block Teproc N1.  The only narrative I can think of here, is that he wanted to be able to claim he didn't target mcmc here, which also fits with his "scumread" on mcmc D2.

@mcmc did IDPTG claim to target Galz before or after Galz claimed EFHW as his target?  If after, then he could have used the claim to be safe from Tracking, but if before then it requires Galz to be scum for that to work.  Unless scum did target Galz for the kill...I guess that makes sense.
His pseudo-claim of visiting faust N1 fits into the same narrative potentially, even though if he was paying attention he would know that no one could claim his N1 target, and know that he'd already claimed to mcmc that he visited him.

Yeah, the more I talk about it, the most reasonable narrative here to me is scum slipping up.  vote: IDPTG (L-2).

[Eevee]

I’m behind this lynch. Do we want more discussion?

Pretty sure if I vote the day will end very soon, some people love their dear hammer time so.

[mcmcsalot]

@theorel IDPTG did claim to target galz’s pretty much as soon as day started multiple hours before galz claimed to redirect to efhw. Idptg also immediately realized his mistake.

[IDontPlayThisGame]

I did target mcmc N1 and Galz N2. I think it's most likely town!mcmc but I wouldn't entirely discount the possibility of scum wasting multiple PRs to get me to trust him.

Are you saying scum knows every active role or they managed to choose EFHW N1 and therefore aim the N2 kill?

Also, no, I wouldn't. Off the top of my head, gkrieg and O can mess with my results and so could Galz if I made a mistake and targeted him. So no, active!me wouldn't have cleared two people. Also, faust was killed N1 and was on my list. So a faust result wouldn't be very useful.

I just don't even...Why would you breadcrumb your useless Galz result, and not your useful mcmc result?  I mean, yes you can be blocked/redirected, but it's really pretty unlikely, especially when O has already claimed to block Teproc N1.  The only narrative I can think of here, is that he wanted to be able to claim he didn't target mcmc here, which also fits with his "scumread" on mcmc D2.

@mcmc did IDPTG claim to target Galz before or after Galz claimed EFHW as his target?  If after, then he could have used the claim to be safe from Tracking, but if before then it requires Galz to be scum for that to work.  Unless scum did target Galz for the kill...I guess that makes sense.
His pseudo-claim of visiting faust N1 fits into the same narrative potentially, even though if he was paying attention he would know that no one could claim his N1 target, and know that he'd already claimed to mcmc that he visited him.

Yeah, the more I talk about it, the most reasonable narrative here to me is scum slipping up.  vote: IDPTG (L-2).

What? The "scumread" you mention was real. It's unlikely that scum did all of that, but as I said above, it isn't entirely out of the picture. How was that a pseudo-claim of faust? And why would scum!me bother saying I targeted faust when I know mcmc could turn around and say, "no, you said you targeted me"?

[IDontPlayThisGame]

Ok, so I still haven't had the time to reread, but on the mcmc thing:

mcmc is very likely town
Galz and IDPTG are most likely not scum together
IDPTG seems super scummy

Right ? His choice of targets is 100% that of a scum Neighborizer : clearing the guy who neighborized him to gain his confidence, and then neighborizing someone who's about to die... except nope, Galz didn't die. I guess that involves scum shooting Galz, which is pretty dangerous... maybe that doesn't work after all ?

Hm. Ok, so does Galz/IDPTG make sense after all ? Eh, maybe. I still need to reread I think.

Except I'm a Weak Visitor, not a Neighborizer. That's mcmc.

[Teproc]

Yes yes, I know that I just wrote the wrong thing.

@Eevee: I would bve very opposed to the day ending now. i'll try to find some time for this tonight.

[theorel]

What? The "scumread" you mention was real. It's unlikely that scum did all of that, but as I said above, it isn't entirely out of the picture. How was that a pseudo-claim of faust? And why would scum!me bother saying I targeted faust when I know mcmc could turn around and say, "no, you said you targeted me"?

So, here's the thing.  As a town player, with the ability to clear other players, you should generally just believe your results.  The off-chance that you've been blocked is just so small, that you don't entertain a significant belief that your result is false, rather your result biases how you read everything and you just take the town-read.  As scum with a cleared townie (either due to actual PR use, or because you're lying about it), you do everything you can to maintain the "possibility" that this town-player is scum.  This is why scum-you does everything you can to avoid actually clearing mcmc in-thread.  The only target from N1 you mentioned was faust, in a post where you SO EASILY could have mentioned mcmc.  There's a couple of ways I can explain this with you as scum.
1. You wanted to be able to accuse mcmc, and deny his claim that you targeted him at lylo in order to keep a mislynch possibility open.
2. You had considered at some point claiming that you targeted faust, because you actually did target him with the NK.  So, it was the first thing on your mind (rather than the mcmc targeting).

Now, we come to the scum-read on mcmc.  Again this makes no sense at all.  There are 2 possibilities:
1. gkrieg and mcmc are a scum-team, not know if you may be active or not, decided to use one of their 2 redirects to make you read town on mcmc.  Okay, this isn't as far-fetched as I initially thought, since you said you would target gkrieg, mcmc, or faust, and so of course, with the faust kill, the only redirect that works here is to hope to clear scum.  Killing you with the redirect, or letting you die would put a lot of heat on that proposed scum-team.  I see you reasoning, it's bad, but it makes sense.  Essentially, if you were right and mcmc/gkrieg were a scum-team, then you could doubt your result out of paranoia.  I think this is poor play generally, because it requires you to have nearly-blindly picked out 2 of the scum-team, which is so highly unlikely that you should assign a very low likelihood to that result, and a very high likelihood to the town-mcmc result. unvote
2. O, teproc, and mcmc are the scum-team and O blocked you specifically, and it just so happened to work out.

For the record, I still think your reasoning is unreasonable, I just think it was unreasonable town, rather than slipping scum.  In particular your desire to know gkrieg's alignment/activeness.  Basically all of your posting makes sense yesterday, given this reasoning.

Okay, I'm gonna rethink on this for a bit, I really don't think all of these active roles are town.
mcmc-basically confirmed town IMO.
IDPTG-I think he's probably town.
Galzria-null-at-best
O-I'm starting to lean a bit more scum here, but it's him or O not both
Teproc-still think he's gotta be town.  He can just claim to be inactive, or refuse to claim target...I don't think scum brings up targeting faust N1, in order to get partner-O to claim, or in hopes of mislynching O/gkrieg.
Joseph/EFHW-clearly town.

So, we could certainly lynch here somewhere in hopes of hitting scum...but...I'm ending up really strongly leaning town on so many of these players.  What if exactly 1 is scum?  This suggests that town got a lot of PRs.  Now, there's 1 really good reason to give town this many PRs...because ash and Robz are scum and active.
ash will take a town with him, Robz will take 2 lynches.  If that's the case, this is actually mylo, not because of 4 scum, but simply because of what it's going to take for us to win as town.
I'm going back to vote: ash.

[ashersky]

I’m active? 

[gkrieg13]

My guess is EFHW was killed because she was possibly a strong PR, not because her reads were either really good or really bad or something.

It's sort of interesting EFHW got killed instead of Teproc, though.

After thinking more, I agree with this.  Given mass-claim, scum knows exactly who to target based on role.  They killed the doctor first, then the full-time Tracker.

Regarding killing with good reads, I think it probably happens more late-game.  Galz in M100 did that, right?  i.e. he killed O, even though O thought he was town? I mostly just looked over post-game.  I think scum more frequently avoids killing people with good reads out of paranoia, even though it's usually the better move, because people will seldom rethink their reads based on surviving.

I agree it happens in the late game, but it doesn't usually happen when people are not very vocal about their reads.  EFHW doesn't strike me as the kind of person to push to make sure her scum reads get lynched, so I think scum probably killed her because they knew she was active.

[gkrieg13]

I had a bad feeling when the lynch went through so easily yesterday. It seems like we are doing what scum wants us to be doing.

This gives me the scums.  It doesn't really offer anything, and tries to put blame on other people.

[Teproc]

I had a bad feeling when the lynch went through so easily yesterday. It seems like we are doing what scum wants us to be doing.

This gives me the scums.  It doesn't really offer anything, and tries to put blame on other people.

While it gives me the towns because I feel the exact same way. I agree it's not productive in and of itself though.

[gkrieg13]

Well, I either saved myself and killed EFHW, or did nothing.

I redirected to EFHW last night. I don't -believe- scum tried to kill me (especially if I'm correct in my stated reads from yesterday), so I think the kill was natural. The only thing above me in priority (still alive/possible) is Gkrieg, and I doubt he messed with much.

My thought process was that O, if town, was likely to target me to Roleblock. He got ascetic wrong and I was hopeful he got order resolution wrong as well. I also thought scum would have a player with lesser suspicion perform the kill so I didn't want to re-target  to a top read. That brought me to Robz/EFHW as my top two scummy-but-under-the-radar choices. I picked EFHW.

With that said, Robz and Theorel both come across as scum here:

Robz's "Sure would be nice to have more information here" sounds like he knows, as scum, that they tried to shoot me last night but EFHW wound up dead. Like he has foresight into shenanigans.

Theorel takes it a step further - again, his post reads like he knows that I must come out with this information, and is looking to preempt it by calling me out as scum. It's very direct and very targeted, and it explains why he's having trouble even justifying his own case.

With 10 alive (3 scum), a mislynch today places the game into into MyLo {8, 3} tomorrow.

This indicates that O is -probably- Town, as I believe that if scum targeted me to kill then it's because they believed I would redirect to my biggest scum read.

I'll go with a vote: Robz for now.

On another note:

Claimed or known PR's:

Joseph
EFHW
Mcmc
Galz
Teproc
O

Mcmc, who did you target for neighborizer N1?

Galz, you kind of go back and forth here.  You give O a townread because you think that scum targeted you, but say at the beginning that scum probably didn't target you with the kill.

[gkrieg13]

Look, everybody all good with lynching me just like Swan. You're all so gullible it's ridiculous. Pay attention people, and stop being sheep. Use those individual thinking skills and actually look for scum.

I don't think Robz is especially scummy.  His comment about it being nice to have info makes sense.  It seems like we have a lot of roles that should out scum, but that none of them have actually done much.  What do you think about IDPTG?

[Galzria]

Well, I either saved myself and killed EFHW, or did nothing.

I redirected to EFHW last night. I don't -believe- scum tried to kill me (especially if I'm correct in my stated reads from yesterday), so I think the kill was natural. The only thing above me in priority (still alive/possible) is Gkrieg, and I doubt he messed with much.

My thought process was that O, if town, was likely to target me to Roleblock. He got ascetic wrong and I was hopeful he got order resolution wrong as well. I also thought scum would have a player with lesser suspicion perform the kill so I didn't want to re-target  to a top read. That brought me to Robz/EFHW as my top two scummy-but-under-the-radar choices. I picked EFHW.

With that said, Robz and Theorel both come across as scum here:

Robz's "Sure would be nice to have more information here" sounds like he knows, as scum, that they tried to shoot me last night but EFHW wound up dead. Like he has foresight into shenanigans.

Theorel takes it a step further - again, his post reads like he knows that I must come out with this information, and is looking to preempt it by calling me out as scum. It's very direct and very targeted, and it explains why he's having trouble even justifying his own case.

With 10 alive (3 scum), a mislynch today places the game into into MyLo {8, 3} tomorrow.

This indicates that O is -probably- Town, as I believe that if scum targeted me to kill then it's because they believed I would redirect to my biggest scum read.

I'll go with a vote: Robz for now.

On another note:

Claimed or known PR's:

Joseph
EFHW
Mcmc
Galz
Teproc
O

Mcmc, who did you target for neighborizer N1?

Galz, you kind of go back and forth here.  You give O a townread because you think that scum targeted you, but say at the beginning that scum probably didn't target you with the kill.

I'm aware. It's because I'm fighting my own bias of seeing him as scum. By the conclusion, and more so now, I'm leaning towards a scum team of: {Theorel, IDPTG, Robz/Eevee}

[gkrieg13]

Why would I redirect you? I don't believe scum!O does the NK, and I don't believe scum try and kill me if you're scum because of the CHANCE that I redirect to you.

Seriously, what at all do I gain by redirecting to you if I think you're scum?

As far as I understand, I think you are understanding your own role incorrectly.  Can't you just deflect off yourself onto another player?  Wouldn't you always want to deflect to your highest scum read?  Because it doesn't actually matter if O performs the night kill, he would still be the one that is actually killed.

[gkrieg13]

Vote: ash

I'm not not suspicious of Galzria, but this doesn't seem like something that he would need to lie about if he was scum. Interested to hear what mcmc has to say, I'd like to update my read on him.

(Robz's case on Galzria interests me as well, if it's still coming.)

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here.  Are you saying that you think that Galzria did lie with who he targeted, or are you giving him town points for "not lying"?

[gkrieg13]

However, I think he already knew that EFHW was an activated Tracker, and he didn't manage to filter that information out of his reasoning.

How did scum!Galz know EFHW was active N2?

I think you can word oracle questions such that scum!Galz could actually know that EFHW was active. 

[Galzria]

Why would I redirect you? I don't believe scum!O does the NK, and I don't believe scum try and kill me if you're scum because of the CHANCE that I redirect to you.

Seriously, what at all do I gain by redirecting to you if I think you're scum?

As far as I understand, I think you are understanding your own role incorrectly.  Can't you just deflect off yourself onto another player?  Wouldn't you always want to deflect to your highest scum read?  Because it doesn't actually matter if O performs the night kill, he would still be the one that is actually killed.

Right - but I really didn't think scum would shoot me if O is scum because of the high probability of exactly that. It's FAR more likely scum shoot me if O is Town, expecting me to redirect to him.

Now, yes, I scum read him strongly - but if I was right and he was scum then (as I didn't think he would perform the nk), all I would be doing by redirecting to him is potentially blocking him from... blocking me? I don't even know how that would resolve.

In the end, my redirecting to ANYBODY should've done nothing at all (and perhaps, even, it didn't) because NOBODY should be targeting me. IF scum choose to shoot me, then it likely meant my read on O was wrong - and possibly (if not probably) most of my reads in general.

[gkrieg13]

Actually, I'll do it now.

D1: not a whole lot of posts and no vote at the end which helped contribute to a no-lynch scenario that was barely avoided

Yeah. Not much to say there other than my previous explanation. Bad play and rather anti-town. I wasn't at training every day and it's not too much to ask for me to sit down and spend 30-60 minutes on this game each IRL day.

D2: similar lack of posts and bad hammer

I went for the hammer because O had already posted intent to hammer, I had a scumread on DatSwan, and since PR has nothing to do with alignment there wasn't much I felt DatSwan could say to sway my opinion at that point.

Anything I'm forgetting? I haven't done much this game so this ended up shorter than I thought it was going to be.

This isn't meant to "absolve [me] of the responsibility of [my] actions and votes", just to give everyone context and my opinion. If people have questions, I'll try to be around to answer them today.

While you are doing this, you should answer the question that Theorel posed here:

I think IDPTG's hammer is also suspicious.  He didn't want to put DatSwan to L-1, but then after Robz goaded him, he was fine with hammering.  I'd like to hear an explanation there as to why he changed his mind that severely...after all L-1 doesn't end the day, it just adds more pressure.  Datswan still could have responded at that point, for instance.  The hammer ends all discussion for certain.

Good point. vote: Robz

[gkrieg13]

However, I think he already knew that EFHW was an activated Tracker, and he didn't manage to filter that information out of his reasoning.

How did scum!Galz know EFHW was active N2?

I'm supposing that scum used their Master Hand questions to determine which power roles were active.  This is the best explanation I have for the EFHW death.  I don't see a world where scum takes the chance of shooting Galzria as claimed diverter.  That's a crazy level of risk.

I think I got this right, though I haven't gone back to check: Scum first was able to ask Master Hand questions N1.  They were answered at the end of N1/beginning of D2. 
Now we get into the speculation:
Scum intentionally shot EFHW over Teproc or O.  This suggests to me that scum knew that EFHW was active (I'm of course assuming Teproc/O are town here.  If I'm wrong about that, well all of my arguments fail).
The way that scum would know that is through the Master Hand questions (since the mass-claim conveniently told scum exactly who had which power...mass-claims are bad!)
Assuming that is the case, then scum knew heading into D2 that EFHW was active.
Teproc and O claim, mcmc was already known to be active at that point, Joseph was also known to be active, and dead.

Now, if we assume that those players are all town, and Galzria is scum with this extra information.  Galzria attempts to put himself in town-Galzria's shoes.  He sees 4 town power roles, +1 he secretly knows of, +himself.  He says, "this is too many power roles", and "O/Teproc power role interaction is convenient, so they are the ones that would give me most doubt were I town with this info."  He proceeds to make that argument in thread for a while, even though most other people expressed that it didn't feel like too many power roles...even knowing that Galzria was one (as he claimed part-way through).  Now we all know that EFHW is active...and that actually does feel like it might be too many power roles (to me).  My thinking was that if Galzria had that information yesterday, then his argument makes more sense.

That said, I went back and looked at his arguments...and he consistently got the number of players in this game wrong.  He kept saying it was ~7 power roles out of 12 or 13 players, when there are(were) in fact 14 players in this game.  In much the same way that 1 more PR makes things seem more reasonable, 1-2 fewer players also makes his argument more reasonable.  We're certainly on the upper-end of PR quantity in this game...
Bah, I don't want to give this up...I liked scum-galz theory.  I like the idea of him and idptg getting on-wagon when they know the NK will be off-wagon, in order to avoid scrutiny.  But, I'm probably subjecting myself to confirmation-bias.  Thinking is hard.  Bah, unvote

btw, @IDPTG:I doubt you're active (based on # of PR arguments above), but if you are, and you've visited people...you have 2 players that you know are town.  You don't have to find scum to be useful...and if you are active, and want to conceal that fact, make sure you breadcrumb who you've cleared. Because that makes the whole finding scum in death thing more useful than just a 1-for-1 trade.

This post makes me have a town read on Theorel (among other things).  I think this thought process it townie (but I will admit that it also mimics my own thought process, which gives me a town read on theorel).

[gkrieg13]

@IDPTG: Any thoughts on the whole me/O/gkrieg thing (and on Galz while you're at it) ? What about Robe v mcmc ?

I think a gkrieg flip tells us a lot, but I don"t think that's a reason to lynch him. Not sure what I think if you yet. As for O, I've scumread people in the past for getting set-ups as wrong as this Ascetic deal, but it's never panned out well so I'm inclined to think it's town!O.

As for Robz vs mcmc, I think mcmc is the townier of the two, but it's not a super strong read.

That said, I think scum!mcmc flipping would also be rather informative.

This is after he had a town result on you?

I think this is very fishy.

[gkrieg13]

vote: galz has to be my best guess. done too much help for scum to be town ie lynching townies and allowing for potential loss of cop result ect

Bwahahaha

Weakest case ever lol

I actually have to agree with galz here.  The case in this post is very weak, but I think he is coupling it with what he had said in his previous posts.  But, I think that Mcmcsalot is town here, as I don't see him as scum with IDPTG.

[gkrieg13]

I’m behind this lynch. Do we want more discussion?

Pretty sure if I vote the day will end very soon, some people love their dear hammer time so.

I would like you to contribute to the discussion more.

[gkrieg13]

I had a bad feeling when the lynch went through so easily yesterday. It seems like we are doing what scum wants us to be doing.

This gives me the scums.  It doesn't really offer anything, and tries to put blame on other people.

While it gives me the towns because I feel the exact same way. I agree it's not productive in and of itself though.

I guess it just seems like such an easy thing to say as scum.

[gkrieg13]

Well, I either saved myself and killed EFHW, or did nothing.

I redirected to EFHW last night. I don't -believe- scum tried to kill me (especially if I'm correct in my stated reads from yesterday), so I think the kill was natural. The only thing above me in priority (still alive/possible) is Gkrieg, and I doubt he messed with much.

My thought process was that O, if town, was likely to target me to Roleblock. He got ascetic wrong and I was hopeful he got order resolution wrong as well. I also thought scum would have a player with lesser suspicion perform the kill so I didn't want to re-target  to a top read. That brought me to Robz/EFHW as my top two scummy-but-under-the-radar choices. I picked EFHW.

With that said, Robz and Theorel both come across as scum here:

Robz's "Sure would be nice to have more information here" sounds like he knows, as scum, that they tried to shoot me last night but EFHW wound up dead. Like he has foresight into shenanigans.

Theorel takes it a step further - again, his post reads like he knows that I must come out with this information, and is looking to preempt it by calling me out as scum. It's very direct and very targeted, and it explains why he's having trouble even justifying his own case.

With 10 alive (3 scum), a mislynch today places the game into into MyLo {8, 3} tomorrow.

This indicates that O is -probably- Town, as I believe that if scum targeted me to kill then it's because they believed I would redirect to my biggest scum read.

I'll go with a vote: Robz for now.

On another note:

Claimed or known PR's:

Joseph
EFHW
Mcmc
Galz
Teproc
O

Mcmc, who did you target for neighborizer N1?

Galz, you kind of go back and forth here.  You give O a townread because you think that scum targeted you, but say at the beginning that scum probably didn't target you with the kill.

I'm aware. It's because I'm fighting my own bias of seeing him as scum. By the conclusion, and more so now, I'm leaning towards a scum team of: {Theorel, IDPTG, Robz/Eevee}

Why Theorel?

[gkrieg13]

Why would I redirect you? I don't believe scum!O does the NK, and I don't believe scum try and kill me if you're scum because of the CHANCE that I redirect to you.

Seriously, what at all do I gain by redirecting to you if I think you're scum?

As far as I understand, I think you are understanding your own role incorrectly.  Can't you just deflect off yourself onto another player?  Wouldn't you always want to deflect to your highest scum read?  Because it doesn't actually matter if O performs the night kill, he would still be the one that is actually killed.

Right - but I really didn't think scum would shoot me if O is scum because of the high probability of exactly that. It's FAR more likely scum shoot me if O is Town, expecting me to redirect to him.

Now, yes, I scum read him strongly - but if I was right and he was scum then (as I didn't think he would perform the nk), all I would be doing by redirecting to him is potentially blocking him from... blocking me? I don't even know how that would resolve.

In the end, my redirecting to ANYBODY should've done nothing at all (and perhaps, even, it didn't) because NOBODY should be targeting me. IF scum choose to shoot me, then it likely meant my read on O was wrong - and possibly (if not probably) most of my reads in general.

Ok, I guess I get your point here.  I still don't think scum tried to kill you anyway.

[Galzria]

As I noted in the post that you quoted, his arguments for me felt very forced and weak - he himself admitted that he was having trouble justifying them.

If I was, in fact, shot last night, then scum probably expected me to redirect to a town player (likely one of my scum reads) - Theorel's case on me made prior to my claiming actions sounds as if he knows already that I must claim, and wants to preempt it by trying to paint potential actions by me as scummy. That is, he's reading that my future claim to have targeted EFHW will be seen as scummy and wants to already have set up the push on me.

It comes across as premeditated - like scum choose to shoot me with the idea back that either:

A) I die

Or

B) I redirect to one of my scum reads (which were probably ass-backward from where I'm standing now), who flips town - and they planned on pushing my lynch for this action.

It feels like he had trouble justifying the case because there really isn't anything there. The fact that he came out with it prior to my claiming is what really makes it feel premeditated.

[Galzria]

I'm basically at a cross roads:

If scum didn't shoot me, then I'm not so unhappy with my reads from yesterday.

If scum did shoot me, then I'm probably completely, 100% wrong.

I would naturally lean towards the former - But between comments from Robz & Theorel, combined with IDPTG's completely illogical actions (unless his action itself was too shoot me), I'm inclined to feel like, well, maybe I was shot.

[IDontPlayThisGame]

Actually, I'll do it now.

D1: not a whole lot of posts and no vote at the end which helped contribute to a no-lynch scenario that was barely avoided

Yeah. Not much to say there other than my previous explanation. Bad play and rather anti-town. I wasn't at training every day and it's not too much to ask for me to sit down and spend 30-60 minutes on this game each IRL day.

D2: similar lack of posts and bad hammer

I went for the hammer because O had already posted intent to hammer, I had a scumread on DatSwan, and since PR has nothing to do with alignment there wasn't much I felt DatSwan could say to sway my opinion at that point.

Anything I'm forgetting? I haven't done much this game so this ended up shorter than I thought it was going to be.

This isn't meant to "absolve [me] of the responsibility of [my] actions and votes", just to give everyone context and my opinion. If people have questions, I'll try to be around to answer them today.

While you are doing this, you should answer the question that Theorel posed here:

I think IDPTG's hammer is also suspicious.  He didn't want to put DatSwan to L-1, but then after Robz goaded him, he was fine with hammering.  I'd like to hear an explanation there as to why he changed his mind that severely...after all L-1 doesn't end the day, it just adds more pressure.  Datswan still could have responded at that point, for instance.  The hammer ends all discussion for certain.

Good point. vote: Robz

...you quoted my answer. In bold now.

[Eevee]

I had a bad feeling when the lynch went through so easily yesterday. It seems like we are doing what scum wants us to be doing.

This gives me the scums.  It doesn't really offer anything, and tries to put blame on other people.

I don't mean to put the blame on other people - I voted for Swan and it really started to build momentum after that. Swan was certainly the lynch I most wanted, but how easily it pushed through made me feel uneasy, already before the flip was posted. I wanted people to vote for him, but I guess the way it happened made me feel it probably was a mislynch. Eh.

[Eevee]

Vote: ash

I'm not not suspicious of Galzria, but this doesn't seem like something that he would need to lie about if he was scum. Interested to hear what mcmc has to say, I'd like to update my read on him.

(Robz's case on Galzria interests me as well, if it's still coming.)

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here.  Are you saying that you think that Galzria did lie with who he targeted, or are you giving him town points for "not lying"?

There is a confusing and grammatically incorrect double-negative in there, but I meant that while I don't have a towny feeling on Galzria, this particular incident didn't seem scum-indicative to me.

Galzria is often such a big town read for me, whenever he's not, I'm inherently a bit suspicious. It's more of a nagging feeling than anything substantial I could even put to words.

[ashersky]

vote: gkrieg I guess.

[Robz888]

I feel like ash is not plying the same game the rest of us are.

[gkrieg13]

Mcmcsalot: Did IDPTG tell you immediately who he had visited?  Or did he wait?  I have a conspiracy theory that needs answering!

[Galzria]

Mcmcsalot: Did IDPTG tell you immediately who he had visited?  Or did he wait?  I have a conspiracy theory that needs answering!

I think he's answered that twice - at least, he's said that he claimed prior to my claiming.

[Galzria]

@theorel IDPTG did claim to target galz’s pretty much as soon as day started multiple hours before galz claimed to redirect to efhw. Idptg also immediately realized his mistake.

[theorel]

As I noted in the post that you quoted, his arguments for me felt very forced and weak - he himself admitted that he was having trouble justifying them.

If I was, in fact, shot last night, then scum probably expected me to redirect to a town player (likely one of my scum reads) - Theorel's case on me made prior to my claiming actions sounds as if he knows already that I must claim, and wants to preempt it by trying to paint potential actions by me as scummy. That is, he's reading that my future claim to have targeted EFHW will be seen as scummy and wants to already have set up the push on me.

It comes across as premeditated - like scum choose to shoot me with the idea back that either:

A) I die

Or

B) I redirect to one of my scum reads (which were probably ass-backward from where I'm standing now), who flips town - and they planned on pushing my lynch for this action.

It feels like he had trouble justifying the case because there really isn't anything there. The fact that he came out with it prior to my claiming is what really makes it feel premeditated.

So, Galz...I really don't understand how my argument on you comes across as having anything to do with your claim.  My argument was:
1. Scum used oracle to discover EFHW was active N1.
2. You allowed this knowledge to influence your arguments yesterday.
-it has absolutely ZERO bearing on your night actions.  It's all about you having more information than you're supposed to.

I still really don't understand why scum would target you at all though, so I do still believe that scum knew EFHW's PR-status from their oracle.  The only thing that changed is I reread your arguments, and you had the player-count consistently wrong.  I think that if IDPTG is scum, then scum did target you...but it seems like IDPTG in a scum QT is going to be talked out of the insanity of claiming to target you.  I think it's highly unlikely that scum shot you, but I think your reads from yesterday are maybe bad?  (well, I think either you or O is scum, so from my perspective that read is good.)

[Archetype]

Vote Count 3.2

Galzria (1): mcmcsalot
Robz888 (1): IDontPlayThisGame
IDontPlayThisGame (3): gkrieg13, Robz888, Galzria
ashersky (2): Eevee, theorel
gkrieg13(1): ashersky

Not Voting (2): Teproc, O
With 10 alive it takes 6 to lynch. Day 3 will end January 15th at 2:30 PM.

[ashersky]

I can never read theorel.  You’ve generally been Town when I’ve scumread you, right?

[O]

Vote: Ashersky

the fact that he has no votes on him and seems so hard to lynch despite being pretty strictly anti-town persona all game is pretty indicative IMO.

[ashersky]

Vote: Ashersky

the fact that he has no votes on him and seems so hard to lynch despite being pretty strictly anti-town persona all game is pretty indicative IMO.

You mean the two votes on me already don’t count?  Cool! 

vote: O.  Lynch all liars.

[O]

Vote: Ashersky

the fact that he has no votes on him and seems so hard to lynch despite being pretty strictly anti-town persona all game is pretty indicative IMO.

You mean the two votes on me already don’t count?  Cool! 

vote: O.  Lynch all liars.

oh snap i misread that vote count pretty badly

Still happy to vote for you though.

[ashersky]

unvote for admitting your mistake.

Back to vote: gkrieg

[theorel]

I can never read theorel.  You’ve generally been Town when I’ve scumread you, right?

Have to be totally honest, I don't remember.

[theorel]

Okay, so I've been really trying to think through what happened last night in conjunction with the claims today, and I'm having trouble putting together any kind of scum-narrative that makes sense.  Which is to say, there's some sense there but it just seems so convoluted that I have trouble thinking a scum-team would go "hey, this seems like a good idea".

The only explanation I can come up with is that IDPTG is not a visitor, was concerned about tracking, didn't put EFHW in his potential targets for last night (because he didn't realize that's who they wanted to kill, somehow), and thus they used Galzria's redirect to get the kill they wanted while still being able to work around any Teproc tracking.
And neither Galzria, nor IDPTG, nor the third scum said, "hey, this is going to paint IDPTG AND Galzria as all kinds of scummy".

It's just "too scummy to be scum".  Scum doesn't just out themselves as targeting their nk, twice, for no reason.

If just Galzria is scum, and he's active, then he can just redirect to anyone, and do the nk on whomever he likes.  Claiming to target EFHW again draws unnecessary fire (IMO), especially when he can claim not to have even used his power.  If he's not actually active, he has even less reason to claim to target EFHW.  The only thing it gains him is a potential "scum targeted me" narrative...but everyone in this thread seems to be on board with the idea that scum didn't target him.  Again, how does this idea get past his scum-mates, and become the play he goes for?

For IDPTG, without Galzria, it just requires all 3 scum to be alright with targeting Galzria for the NK, knowing he's an active town-diverter.  Which I have difficulty imagining scum being on board with.  This is the whole, I don't think scum targeted Galz thing again, just with specifically IDPTG as scum.

The town-narratives aren't particularly sensible, but it's much easier to believe that 1 player with no one to bounce ideas off of, makes that kind of play.  The problem here is "coincidence" issues, much as we have from D2 with Teproc/O.  And, I throw up my hands and say "what is with this game?"

[gkrieg13]

My conspiracy theory for IDPTG is that he is not a visitor and just targeted Galz with the night kill to have an alibi if he were tracked by Teproc.  He is the best player left alive to have that alibi I think.  Without looking back at the claims I'm not entirely sure, but I think it is possible that he had to target Galzria because he didn't think through his targeting list when he posted it at the end of day, and had to choose one of the three targets to kill, in case he was tracked he could just say that he visited them.

Sorry, busy today so I'm not sure that makes much sense...

[theorel]

I want to put this in its own post, because it's unrelated to the above, and nobody seemed to care when I put it at the end of my other post.

If ash and Robz are both scum and active with 3 scum, we are essentially at mylo right NOW.  When we lynch ash we lose a town-player.  When we lynch Robz we essentially lose a town-player (nk).
If Eevee is active and scum with 1 of ash/Robz, we are also basically at mylo right NOW...except if O is town and blocks Eevee's kill.

If IDPTG is town, and ends up targeting scum with 1 of Eevee(w/no block), Robz, or ash as scum we are at mylo right NOW.

I really think that this fact is not being taken seriously enough.  There are a lot of ways for scum to get an extra kill in this game, and I really expect at least one of those players is scum. 
I'm leaning ash because he seems to be flying under-the-radar, and my completely outdated ash-meta says he doesn't do that as town.  (I'd appreciate an update, if I'm off-base here)
I can see Eevee being scum as well, his repeated "I'm being mislead" argument is super-scummy from where I'm standing.  However, he's less dangerous since his potential bonus-kill can be blocked.
I could also get behind Robz, especially knowing that mcmc is prob!town.  I found his argument against Robz yesterday very compelling.  That said, Robz is the towniest member of the trio to me.

I don't think they're all 3 scum together probably, but none of them stand out as town.  I'd really like for people to at least acknowledge this potential issue.

[theorel]

My conspiracy theory for IDPTG is that he is not a visitor and just targeted Galz with the night kill to have an alibi if he were tracked by Teproc.  He is the best player left alive to have that alibi I think.  Without looking back at the claims I'm not entirely sure, but I think it is possible that he had to target Galzria because he didn't think through his targeting list when he posted it at the end of day, and had to choose one of the three targets to kill, in case he was tracked he could just say that he visited them.

Sorry, busy today so I'm not sure that makes much sense...

He said he would target Robz, Teproc, or Galz...
I just know that if I were scum, I would not want to target Galz unless he were also scum (I would target Teproc if I'd listed myself into that corner).  If they're both scum, then we're saying that 2 scum players have both knowingly claimed to target the nk.  That's bold, and has lead to both of them drawing a lot of heat.  The IDPTG lynch was practically ready to go through yesterday.  Man, scum just doesn't paint that big a target on themselves, in order to avoid a potential tracker result.

(Note: IDPTG was likely to be tracked last night, he's the best target for it from a town perspective, much as he's the best neighborizer target for mcmc.  Because knowing who he targeted when he dies is like super-important).

Note: if this is all true, IDPTG did not bother to worry about being tracked N1, since he claimed he visited mcmc in their neighbor-thread.  This is when both potential trackers were still alive, and he was still the far-and-away best track-target.  Going from not caring to putting themselves in the hot-seat over tracking when they're killing the full-time tracker seems...really really sloppy.

[mcmcsalot]

My gut says IDPTG/RObZ are scum and one of galz/gkrieg/eevee

[gkrieg13]

My gut says IDPTG/RObZ are scum and one of galz/gkrieg/eevee

What made Robz and Galz switch places?

[mcmcsalot]

My gut says IDPTG/RObZ are scum and one of galz/gkrieg/eevee

What made Robz and Galz switch places?

Theorel's arguments and a return to reads based of scumminess and not night actions. Have wanted to lynch robz since before any of this.

[IDontPlayThisGame]

If IDPTG is town, and ends up targeting scum with 1 of Eevee(w/no block), Robz, or ash as scum we are at mylo right NOW.

Which is why we need to decide whether I should use my ability tonight. Ultimately I'll make the decision, but input is nice.

[Teproc]

I just don't have the time to reread this game, so I guess I should vote becuase I'm not helping matters here.

I think strongly theorel is town. I can't make sense of the IDPTG/Galz thing. It doesn't make sense for a scumteam to shoot Galz, I know that. I think the easier explanation is they're both town.

Mainly, what I think about day 2 is that scum was hanging back and let us bury ourselves. So mostly ash, but also Robz. Actually feel stronger about Robz, so vote: Robz

[gkrieg13]

I just don't have the time to reread this game, so I guess I should vote becuase I'm not helping matters here.

I think strongly theorel is town. I can't make sense of the IDPTG/Galz thing. It doesn't make sense for a scumteam to shoot Galz, I know that. I think the easier explanation is they're both town.

Mainly, what I think about day 2 is that scum was hanging back and let us bury ourselves. So mostly ash, but also Robz. Actually feel stronger about Robz, so vote: Robz

Why do you feel stronger about Robz? 

[Robz888]

Sorry, I’ve been playing Mario odyssey all week (mini vacation after turning in my book) and haven’t given this very much of my time.

I strongly object to the “oh theorem is making so much sense, he must be town”  arguments, however I do think he’s making sense. The more I think about it, the less I can see the scum team letting scum IDP make a mistake like that.

How about this plan: if everybody is so worried about me or ash, let’s lynch ash, I will hammer him, and if I’m still alive tonight, IDP can visit me to dispel any concern.

[Robz888]

Should be theorel, not theorem.

Ash has has not really been involving himself in the game at all and we’ve basically all just ignored it because it’s ash. But there’s absolutely nothing to his credit in the “why is he town?” column. He has barely even given reads.

If the mcmc-idp-Galz triangle of awkwardness and error is town, as is the gkrieg-teproc-O triangle of the same, scum team is... ash, Eevee, theorel. I could see it.

[Galzria]

How about this plan: if everybody is so worried about me or ash, let’s lynch ash, I will hammer him, and if I’m still alive tonight, IDP can visit me to dispel any concern.

This fails us if you and IDPTG are scum. You could be active. Ash *probably* isn't. Even if he is, that wouldn't hurt you. IDPTG could then "clear" you - but we're in MyLo at that point, which means either deciding you're both lying scum, or looking for your (1?, 2?) Remaining scummates amongst the rest of the living players.

[Robz888]

How about this plan: if everybody is so worried about me or ash, let’s lynch ash, I will hammer him, and if I’m still alive tonight, IDP can visit me to dispel any concern.

This fails us if you and IDPTG are scum. You could be active. Ash *probably* isn't. Even if he is, that wouldn't hurt you. IDPTG could then "clear" you - but we're in MyLo at that point, which means either deciding you're both lying scum, or looking for your (1?, 2?) Remaining scummates amongst the rest of the living players.

Why do you think ash is not active, but I am?

Yes if me and IDP are both scum, that’s bad. I think that’s a pretty unsupported theory though. I have gunned for IDP all game. I am currently voting for him.

[IDontPlayThisGame]

How about this plan: if everybody is so worried about me or ash, let’s lynch ash, I will hammer him, and if I’m still alive tonight, IDP can visit me to dispel any concern.

This fails us if you and IDPTG are scum. You could be active. Ash *probably* isn't. Even if he is, that wouldn't hurt you. IDPTG could then "clear" you - but we're in MyLo at that point, which means either deciding you're both lying scum, or looking for your (1?, 2?) Remaining scummates amongst the rest of the living players.

Why do you think ash is not active, but I am?

Yes if me and IDP are both scum, that’s bad. I think that’s a pretty unsupported theory though. I have gunned for IDP all game. I am currently voting for him.

And I'm already voting for you so that's cool.

[IDontPlayThisGame]

Oh, and congrats on finishing your book.

[O]

Possibility: Scum knows Robz is active and are trying to burn two days of lynches on an town member.

Seriously. If Robz is active + town, you guys are putting us at LYLO with this plan. It's not a "good to get it out of the way" kind of decision here. It's a "if he's active, we're committing to him as scum" kind of decision.

[IDontPlayThisGame]

Possibility: Scum knows Robz is active and are trying to burn two days of lynches on an town member.

Seriously. If Robz is active + town, you guys are putting us at LYLO with this plan. It's not a "good to get it out of the way" kind of decision here. It's a "if he's active, we're committing to him as scum" kind of decision.

Well, yes. As a general rule I try not to vote for town.

[theorel]

Possibility: Scum knows Robz is active and are trying to burn two days of lynches on an town member.

Seriously. If Robz is active + town, you guys are putting us at LYLO with this plan. It's not a "good to get it out of the way" kind of decision here. It's a "if he's active, we're committing to him as scum" kind of decision.

But if Robz is active+scum and we have some other parity disruption (say town IDPTG, or scum Eevee or scum Ash) we're already at mylo.  So, yeah I'd rather not go go to lylo by lynching Robz, but I'd also rather not lose by making a bad town-lynch.  It would be nice if our investigative role had cleared the hard lynches like Robz and Ash...but that didn't happen.  So now we're stuck between a rock and a hard place.

However, I'm reconsidering whether ash is our best target...
If we get to 2v1 with active scum-ash, we win.  If we get to 2v1 with active scum-Robz we lose.  If Robz is scum we want to lynch him early.  I'd have to run the numbers, but I think this means that we're not at mylo on account of ash, as long as we lynch him last?

@IDPTG: if we lynch scum you are good to go visiting.  If we lynch town, it depends on who it is.  Basically, if we lynch Robz or Eevee (regardless of alignment) you can visit, and if you die we're okay.  If we lynch anyone else and they're town, you need to not visit, because if Robz+Eevee are active scum then we lose on your death.

[gkrieg13]

Possibility: Scum knows Robz is active and are trying to burn two days of lynches on an town member.

Seriously. If Robz is active + town, you guys are putting us at LYLO with this plan. It's not a "good to get it out of the way" kind of decision here. It's a "if he's active, we're committing to him as scum" kind of decision.

But if Robz is active+scum and we have some other parity disruption (say town IDPTG, or scum Eevee or scum Ash) we're already at mylo.  So, yeah I'd rather not go go to lylo by lynching Robz, but I'd also rather not lose by making a bad town-lynch.  It would be nice if our investigative role had cleared the hard lynches like Robz and Ash...but that didn't happen.  So now we're stuck between a rock and a hard place.

However, I'm reconsidering whether ash is our best target...
If we get to 2v1 with active scum-ash, we win.  If we get to 2v1 with active scum-Robz we lose.  If Robz is scum we want to lynch him early.  I'd have to run the numbers, but I think this means that we're not at mylo on account of ash, as long as we lynch him last?

@IDPTG: if we lynch scum you are good to go visiting.  If we lynch town, it depends on who it is.  Basically, if we lynch Robz or Eevee (regardless of alignment) you can visit, and if you die we're okay.  If we lynch anyone else and they're town, you need to not visit, because if Robz+Eevee are active scum then we lose on your death.

If Robz and Eevee are scum, aren’t we at MYLo right now anyway?

[Teproc]

I just don't have the time to reread this game, so I guess I should vote becuase I'm not helping matters here.

I think strongly theorel is town. I can't make sense of the IDPTG/Galz thing. It doesn't make sense for a scumteam to shoot Galz, I know that. I think the easier explanation is they're both town.

Mainly, what I think about day 2 is that scum was hanging back and let us bury ourselves. So mostly ash, but also Robz. Actually feel stronger about Robz, so vote: Robz

Why do you feel stronger about Robz? 

In day 2 someone said something along the lines of "Robz is active and helpful, he's town", and that's kinda why I think he's scum. not that town!Robz can't be helpful, he's just much more... controversial than this I suppose. "Agreeable" is not something I'd say of town!Robz in general, but I would say it in this game. Now the circumstances are a bit different with Robz being focused on IRL (and yes, congrats on finishing the book!) so it never quite became a strong scum read, but I've been slightly suspicious of him all game... and the Robz v mcmc thing feels somewhat artificial too, to an extent.

ash I just don't know. He's baiting us into lynching him I think, in the hopes that he can manipulate the situation to kill someone (or use the fear of him being active to "catch" scum somehow)... scum!ash can certainly do stuff like that, but the weirder his play is, the more likely he is to be town in general.

[theorel]

Possibility: Scum knows Robz is active and are trying to burn two days of lynches on an town member.

Seriously. If Robz is active + town, you guys are putting us at LYLO with this plan. It's not a "good to get it out of the way" kind of decision here. It's a "if he's active, we're committing to him as scum" kind of decision.

But if Robz is active+scum and we have some other parity disruption (say town IDPTG, or scum Eevee or scum Ash) we're already at mylo.  So, yeah I'd rather not go go to lylo by lynching Robz, but I'd also rather not lose by making a bad town-lynch.  It would be nice if our investigative role had cleared the hard lynches like Robz and Ash...but that didn't happen.  So now we're stuck between a rock and a hard place.

However, I'm reconsidering whether ash is our best target...
If we get to 2v1 with active scum-ash, we win.  If we get to 2v1 with active scum-Robz we lose.  If Robz is scum we want to lynch him early.  I'd have to run the numbers, but I think this means that we're not at mylo on account of ash, as long as we lynch him last?

@IDPTG: if we lynch scum you are good to go visiting.  If we lynch town, it depends on who it is.  Basically, if we lynch Robz or Eevee (regardless of alignment) you can visit, and if you die we're okay.  If we lynch anyone else and they're town, you need to not visit, because if Robz+Eevee are active scum then we lose on your death.

If Robz and Eevee are scum, aren’t we at MYLo right now anyway?

Yeah, sorry, I was being dumb with that whole post (almost).  Here's the correct version:
@O: If we lynch ANY town we're at MYLO at best (already lost at worst).  The only difference with lynching an active town-Robz is that we're at LYLO instead of MYLO.  I think generally LYLO is preferrable if you can swing it for good reason.

Suppose Robz+Ash are active scum.  We're at 7v3 right now...we lynch town and go to 5v3.  Then we have to lynch Robz, we go 4v3, then 3v2.  Then we have to pick out the non-ash scum, and get to 2v1, then lynch ash and hit 1v0 and win.
Suppose Robz+Eevee are active scum.  7v3->5v3 after town lynch.  Then we lynch Robz, but Eevee shoots town, and we end up with 2v2 and lose.  If O blocks Eevee's kill, we can prevent this.  But, if not we lose.  There are several reasons O could fail to block Eevee's kill, such as him being nk'd or being scum.

So, this is why I was reconsidering whether we should lynch ash today...and I think that's a good reason not to. unvote

So, what if we DO lynch Robz today (and tomorrow) and he's active?
Suppose he's town:
We go to 4v3.  If Eevee is (unblocked) active scum we lose, or if IDPTG visits scum we lose.  (we can still defeat active-scum ash by lynching him last).

After more thought, there's a very simple reason we could fail to block Eevee, even if O is town, which is if he's nk'd.  That doesn't mean that his nk implicates Eevee it just enables him.
Okay, what if we lynch Eevee?
Suppose he's town:
we go to 5v3.  If Robz is active!scum, and we realize this, we lynch him next->3v2, then we lynch the remaining 2 scum and win (lynching ash last, if scum).

So, moral of the story: burning a lynch on active town!Robz is just as bad as burning it on active scum!Robz.
AND, IDPTG visiting is only okay if we lynch scum.

I'm liking an Eevee lynch for those reasons AND because he's already a scum-read.  If he does flip scum, then IDPTG visiting Robz would be good (I think, let me work it out.)
If IDPTG visits Robz and dies (in addition to nk), then Robz is scum.  We're then at 5v2.  We have to burn a lynch to get to 4v2, then we lynch him to get to 3v1.  Yeah, so we just maintain our bad parity in that case.  If scum uses up their nk on him, we're at 6v2.  Then, even if Robz is town and active and we mislynch him, we go to 3v2, and have one more shot to get scum.
So, I think he should visit Robz?  If he dies an extra death, we'll know we have to burn the extra lynch.  If he lives, we know Robz is town, and we get all kinds of good stuff.

tl;dr
scum!Eevee is most dangerous scum.  I think we should lynch him first.  vote: Eevee
scum!ash is least dangerous, as long as we lynch him last.
@IDPTG: don't visit anyone unless we lynch scum.

[mcmcsalot]

Updated Post Count

Teproc 136-3= 133
Galzria 130-3= 127
O 120-1= 119
Robz888 106-3= 103
mcmcsalot 103-1= 102
gkrieg13 95-2= 93
ashersky 73-1= 72
AndrewisFTTW/eevee 7+44-3= 48
IDontPlayThisGame 52-5= 47
chairs/theorel 20+20-1= 39

[mcmcsalot]

vote: robz I think he's definitely scum, if he is active lynching him is better now then later because it forces scum to kill some other town players.

[Robz888]

vote: robz I think he's definitely scum, if he is active lynching him is better now then later because it forces scum to kill some other town players.

You've got blinders on, bro. As theorel laid out, it's better to leave me alive here (since you don't have to kill me yet) and let IDP investigate me. And if IDP lies about me, then at least I know he was scum after all and can argue it with confidence, though I've increasingly talked myself out of this position.

Granted, IDP definitely should have investigated me already, but oh well, townies makes mistakes.

Vote: Eevee, per theorel's argument.

[Robz888]

I just don't have the time to reread this game, so I guess I should vote becuase I'm not helping matters here.

I think strongly theorel is town. I can't make sense of the IDPTG/Galz thing. It doesn't make sense for a scumteam to shoot Galz, I know that. I think the easier explanation is they're both town.

Mainly, what I think about day 2 is that scum was hanging back and let us bury ourselves. So mostly ash, but also Robz. Actually feel stronger about Robz, so vote: Robz

Why do you feel stronger about Robz? 

In day 2 someone said something along the lines of "Robz is active and helpful, he's town", and that's kinda why I think he's scum. not that town!Robz can't be helpful, he's just much more... controversial than this I suppose. "Agreeable" is not something I'd say of town!Robz in general, but I would say it in this game. Now the circumstances are a bit different with Robz being focused on IRL (and yes, congrats on finishing the book!) so it never quite became a strong scum read, but I've been slightly suspicious of him all game... and the Robz v mcmc thing feels somewhat artificial too, to an extent.

ash I just don't know. He's baiting us into lynching him I think, in the hopes that he can manipulate the situation to kill someone (or use the fear of him being active to "catch" scum somehow)... scum!ash can certainly do stuff like that, but the weirder his play is, the more likely he is to be town in general.

I don't think I "hung back" on Day 2, and I definitely don't think I've been helpful and townie. I've been helpful in the sense that I've actually worked to progress the game, but I've gotten just about every single call wrong, from the DatSwan lynch to my mcmc read to (I think) IDP to Galzria being scummy (this still could be but mehhhh). This is actually a good argument for why town!Robz needs to get nightkilled early, because let in the game my game-long bad reads make it so that I don't have the credibility I need to avoid getting lynched late game.

[Robz888]

let=late

[gkrieg13]

Vote Count 3.2

Galzria (1): mcmcsalot
Robz888 (1): IDontPlayThisGame
IDontPlayThisGame (3): gkrieg13, Robz888, Galzria
ashersky (2): Eevee, theorel
gkrieg13(1): ashersky

Not Voting (2): Teproc, O
With 10 alive it takes 6 to lynch. Day 3 will end January 15th at 2:30 PM.

Of the ten people alive, I don't want to lynch:

Robz - I think he has been helpful, similar to how he was in that game he was a survivor.  Maybe not THAT helpful, but he definitely has not just hung back and let all the work be done for him, like I would expect him to do as scum.  I also think that his reaction to Mcmc wanting to waste his deathproof at the beginning of the game was a townie one.

Mcmcsalot - I think regardless of IDPTG's alignment, I think the result on mcmcsalot is true.  The only case where it isn't is where mcmcsalot and IDPTG are both scum, but then I don't htink he would attack IDPTG like he did at the beginning of today.

Theorel - His posts have been insightful and he has been active.  I have agreed with about half of his analysis, but it has good reasoning behind it, which is usually a townie thing.

I'm not really interested in lynching:

O - This one I'm a little less on.  I don't think he has done anything super scummy, except for targeting Teproc N1.  His reactions to cases on him have been townie.

Teproc - He has had good cases on people and looks like he is trying.  He also doesn't seem as calculated as I've seen scum!Teproc in the past.

Galzria - I'm on the fence about.  His paranoia is something that I didn't see in his scum games, but he is the kind of player that could change his scum style if he were scum multiple games in a row.  I think I would rather wait to see the flip of my want to lynches before I decide anything about Galzria, because IDPTG flipping scum would change my read on him.

Want to lynch:

IDPTG - I think he has been scummy for a while now.  His reaction to cases and his night actions are very scummy.  He seems to have a good grasp on the setup, yet didn't make "good" choices with that knowledge.  His lynch has also been incredibly difficult.

Eevee - I agree with Theorel that Eevee is the most dangerous scum.  But more than that, Eevee has been very under the radar, and still is hard for me to remember he is in the game.  If I believe that basically all of the active people are town, then it makes sense for scum to hang back and attack each other, especially with the amount of weird night action resolutions that have taken place that gets town at each other's throats.

ash - My townread on ash has waned significantly.  He is the weakest of my want to lynches, but his unhelpfulness and lack of interest at this point in the game reads to me that he is active, and that he wants to be lynched at this point.  Ash is at a point that if he is scum and active, his lynch only is helpful to town in that it would be a scum flip.  I guess it would still be fine as long as IDPTG doesn't kill himself, because it would just put us at LYLO instead of MYLO.

[ashersky]

That reads list by gkrieg is scummy.

————

I appreciate theo’s analysis.  He didn’t include some details which don’t seem super important (like if I’m scum, there’s a guarantee that Town dies on hammer, but if I’m town then we do have a chance to kill scum) but actually matter when trying to determine what info Theo has.

I think the fact that Theo takes as a given that my Lynch results in an extra Town death means one of: 1) we are both scum and he knows none of our team will hammer; 2) he is scum and the team discussed making sure they don’t hammer; 3) he somehow forgot to take it into consideration.

You all can make your own decisions, but I think #3 is least likely, and I actually know I’m Town.

If Theo is mastermind scum here, he’s setting up multiple mislynches plus directing a possible weak visitor to get a free additional NK.

Something to consider.

[Robz888]

That reads list by gkrieg is scummy.

————

I appreciate theo’s analysis.  He didn’t include some details which don’t seem super important (like if I’m scum, there’s a guarantee that Town dies on hammer, but if I’m town then we do have a chance to kill scum) but actually matter when trying to determine what info Theo has.

I think the fact that Theo takes as a given that my Lynch results in an extra Town death means one of: 1) we are both scum and he knows none of our team will hammer; 2) he is scum and the team discussed making sure they don’t hammer; 3) he somehow forgot to take it into consideration.

You all can make your own decisions, but I think #3 is least likely, and I actually know I’m Town.

If Theo is mastermind scum here, he’s setting up multiple mislynches plus directing a possible weak visitor to get a free additional NK.

Something to consider.

So you are basically saying that theorel is scum?

[theorel]

That reads list by gkrieg is scummy.

————

I appreciate theo’s analysis.  He didn’t include some details which don’t seem super important (like if I’m scum, there’s a guarantee that Town dies on hammer, but if I’m town then we do have a chance to kill scum) but actually matter when trying to determine what info Theo has.

I think the fact that Theo takes as a given that my Lynch results in an extra Town death means one of: 1) we are both scum and he knows none of our team will hammer; 2) he is scum and the team discussed making sure they don’t hammer; 3) he somehow forgot to take it into consideration.

You all can make your own decisions, but I think #3 is least likely, and I actually know I’m Town.

If Theo is mastermind scum here, he’s setting up multiple mislynches plus directing a possible weak visitor to get a free additional NK.

Something to consider.

I think (though I could be wrong), that by the time I included town-possibilities for anybody, I had already established that we should only lynch scum-ash last.  So, I wasn't super-concerned with what happened with town-ash, since we shouldn't lynch you this early, even if you're scum.  If you want some future game advice...um lynch ash if you think he's scum, and there's only 1 scum left.  If you're at 4v1, then there's room to make a mistake.  If you're at 2v1, make the scummier player hammer him.

[O]

That reads list by gkrieg is scummy.

————

I appreciate theo’s analysis.  He didn’t include some details which don’t seem super important (like if I’m scum, there’s a guarantee that Town dies on hammer, but if I’m town then we do have a chance to kill scum) but actually matter when trying to determine what info Theo has.

I think the fact that Theo takes as a given that my Lynch results in an extra Town death means one of: 1) we are both scum and he knows none of our team will hammer; 2) he is scum and the team discussed making sure they don’t hammer; 3) he somehow forgot to take it into consideration.

You all can make your own decisions, but I think #3 is least likely, and I actually know I’m Town.

If Theo is mastermind scum here, he’s setting up multiple mislynches plus directing a possible weak visitor to get a free additional NK.

Something to consider.

I think (though I could be wrong), that by the time I included town-possibilities for anybody, I had already established that we should only lynch scum-ash last.  So, I wasn't super-concerned with what happened with town-ash, since we shouldn't lynch you this early, even if you're scum.  If you want some future game advice...um lynch ash if you think he's scum, and there's only 1 scum left.  If you're at 4v1, then there's room to make a mistake.  If you're at 2v1, make the scummier player hammer him.

Or we could agree to lynch ash, then vote on a hammerer and lynch the hammerer if they refuse.

[mcmcsalot]

I don't think ash is scum, I don't think he is active either, I think Robz may be both and is absolutely willing to lynch ash to burn his 1-shot dp and either also kill town!idptg or be false cleared by scum!idptg or just argue his towniness.

[Teproc]

That reads list by gkrieg is scummy.

————

I appreciate theo’s analysis.  He didn’t include some details which don’t seem super important (like if I’m scum, there’s a guarantee that Town dies on hammer, but if I’m town then we do have a chance to kill scum) but actually matter when trying to determine what info Theo has.

I think the fact that Theo takes as a given that my Lynch results in an extra Town death means one of: 1) we are both scum and he knows none of our team will hammer; 2) he is scum and the team discussed making sure they don’t hammer; 3) he somehow forgot to take it into consideration.

You all can make your own decisions, but I think #3 is least likely, and I actually know I’m Town.

If Theo is mastermind scum here, he’s setting up multiple mislynches plus directing a possible weak visitor to get a free additional NK.

Something to consider.

I think (though I could be wrong), that by the time I included town-possibilities for anybody, I had already established that we should only lynch scum-ash last.  So, I wasn't super-concerned with what happened with town-ash, since we shouldn't lynch you this early, even if you're scum.  If you want some future game advice...um lynch ash if you think he's scum, and there's only 1 scum left.  If you're at 4v1, then there's room to make a mistake.  If you're at 2v1, make the scummier player hammer him.

Or we could agree to lynch ash, then vote on a hammerer and lynch the hammerer if they refuse.

In theory, yes. In practice I think it'd be somewhat complicated, but if we get to L-1 on ash we should do that yes.

Obviously, I think Robz should be the hammerer in that case (not for role interactions reason, just for likelihood to hit scum).

[O]

That reads list by gkrieg is scummy.

————

I appreciate theo’s analysis.  He didn’t include some details which don’t seem super important (like if I’m scum, there’s a guarantee that Town dies on hammer, but if I’m town then we do have a chance to kill scum) but actually matter when trying to determine what info Theo has.

I think the fact that Theo takes as a given that my Lynch results in an extra Town death means one of: 1) we are both scum and he knows none of our team will hammer; 2) he is scum and the team discussed making sure they don’t hammer; 3) he somehow forgot to take it into consideration.

You all can make your own decisions, but I think #3 is least likely, and I actually know I’m Town.

If Theo is mastermind scum here, he’s setting up multiple mislynches plus directing a possible weak visitor to get a free additional NK.

Something to consider.

I think (though I could be wrong), that by the time I included town-possibilities for anybody, I had already established that we should only lynch scum-ash last.  So, I wasn't super-concerned with what happened with town-ash, since we shouldn't lynch you this early, even if you're scum.  If you want some future game advice...um lynch ash if you think he's scum, and there's only 1 scum left.  If you're at 4v1, then there's room to make a mistake.  If you're at 2v1, make the scummier player hammer him.

Or we could agree to lynch ash, then vote on a hammerer and lynch the hammerer if they refuse.

In theory, yes. In practice I think it'd be somewhat complicated, but if we get to L-1 on ash we should do that yes.

Obviously, I think Robz should be the hammerer in that case (not for role interactions reason, just for likelihood to hit scum).

I think that's likely the best plan.

[Eevee]

Robz is seeming scummier to me as well. theorel getting town points for good analysis seems unwarranted - that's more of a theorel - tell than anything alignment indicative. I'm not saying I have any reason to think he's scum, although if all these wack pr interactions are town, a lot of us not included in them must be scum. (I'm totally giving gkrieg a town read for good analysis as well even though he might be able to fake it as scum. Still feeling towny on him, call me a hypocrite.)


Could lynch Robz, ash, IDPTG, or maybe Galzria.

[Robz888]

All of a sudden I’m feeling scummier to you, Eevee? Is it because I changed my mind about you?

[Teproc]

theorel doesn't get town points for analysis, he gets town points for that analysis seeming to come from a town perspective. Strongest town read in the game to me, in large part because his approach to the IDPTG thing was messy in the way town generally is.

[Eevee]

All of a sudden I’m feeling scummier to you, Eevee? Is it because I changed my mind about you?

Your early play seemed towny, I haven't had those feelings since then. Also, mcmc (most likely) turning up town makes you seem a little scummier in my eyes, since part of my read was thinking you looked townier in that argument. Much of it's also PoE, since the various pr's seem on the townier side.

I don't really have great reads right now. I'm realizing how difficult it is to build scum reads I actually have confidence in before the first scum flip, even if it's late in the game like now. Ugh.

[Archetype]

Vote Count 3.3

Robz888 (3): IDontPlayThisGame, Teproc, mcmcsalot
IDontPlayThisGame (2): gkrieg13, Galzria
ashersky (2): Eevee, O
gkrieg13(1): ashersky
Eevee(2): theorel, Robz888

With 10 alive it takes 6 to lynch. Day 3 will end January 15th at 2:30 PM (~2 days).

[ashersky]

Based on wagon comp: Robz > idptg > Eevee.

[Teproc]

Upm, looks like this game is dying ? I"m felling less sure about Robz anyway, would expect more of a fight from scum! him. Let's vote: ash. Still think I like Robz hammering though... gkrieg and Eevee also acceptable.

[O]

Can you guys post your votes for hammerer if you vote for Rob, like Teproc did

really need this to be a town consensus concept to get an extra pseudo lynch

[gkrieg13]

vote: ash

Robz for hammer

[theorel]

I'm okay with lynching ash only if Robz or Eevee hammer.  I'd really rather just lynch Eevee, personally.

[Galzria]

I hate how easily consensus have been made yesterday and today on non-involved players. I'll do whatever to get a lynch, obviously, but this feels stupid.

If we're lynching Ash, Robz should hammer. But this feels like such a cop out.

[Teproc]

I know... who would you rather lynch again ?

[Archetype]

Vote Count 3.4

Robz888 (2): IDontPlayThisGame, mcmcsalot
IDontPlayThisGame (1): Galzria
ashersky (4): Eevee, O, Teproc, gkrieg13
gkrieg13(1): ashersky
Eevee(2): theorel, Robz888

With 10 alive it takes 6 to lynch. Day 3 will end January 15th at 2:30 PM (~36 hours).

[Galzria]

I know... who would you rather lynch again ?

I don't know. Gut? O still. Based on results from last night? Is it coincidence that I targeted EFHW and scum did too, or did I kill her? IDPTG. He's seemed to have such a handle on the setup, admits that messing it up isn't meta, and honestly... I think my gut read is wrong. I think IDPTG is scum who targeted me for the kill as a tracking alibi.

But really... yeah. I don't have a better answer. I dislike strongly how many people town read him, or Theorel, or Robz, or... etc. It's the ones that are so damn hard to get a push on that concern me most.

Imagine: You're 3 scum in 10 players. Takes 6 to lynch.  If you all defend each other, it takes 6/7 town to get your lynch through - and that's with them agreeing despite your defenses. It's such a damn shitty situation.

I would like, I think, to lynch IDPTG. Or Theorel. Or Eevee. Or Robz. Any of the ones that people (collectively, town) need to step back from and say "why hasn't this been visible"?

I highly, HIGHLY dislike Robz' "let me hammer Ash, and IDPTG can visit me to clear me at night". If they're scum together, it's not unreasonable for him to be active - and he's pushing an unlikely active town!Ash here to promote a fake clear tomorrow - and I haven't even fully looked over Theorel's analysis, but are we even still playing if Robz is scum, active, and we lynch town today?

Sorry, extremely DAMA (Holiday staff party, so this is mostly stream of conscience as I lie in bed), so if that's not all logically followed, I apologize.

End of the day, I just hate how easy this feels. And I honestly do not feel that we're walking a winning path by lynching Ash here.

[ashersky]

vote: Teproc since no one trusts my gut and that “let’s take the easy mislynch now since it’s slow and that’s a good cover” post only comes from scum.

Also, please note the cheap gkrieg vote that followed.

I’m liking both for scum, given reads and possible coordination.  Plus two of Eevee, O, Robz, Galz I think.

[Teproc]

Well, everyone you mention is kind of in that consensus as well. They all have votes right now.

PPE: This was in response to Galz.

[mcmcsalot]

ugh robz is so scum based on wagons movementand deadness

[IDontPlayThisGame]

Woke up late, reading it over now.

[IDontPlayThisGame]

Woke up late, reading it over now.

Oh. I thought there was more to read through. I'll have something soon.

[Teproc]

ugh robz is so scum based on wagons movementand deadness

Is "wagon movements" mostly me moving to ash ?

[IDontPlayThisGame]

Woke up late, reading it over now.

Oh. I thought there was more to read through. I'll have something soon.

I also got the day wrong. I thought deadline was today.

[IDontPlayThisGame]

Figured a D3 reads list is better than nothing.

mcmcsalot - town. I'm trusting my result at this point.

ashersky - I thought he was townie initially but that's cooled a bit and there's now fear that a scum team of active!Robz+active!ash has pretty much won at this point based on PRs. Townier side of null for now, but willing to lynch if Robz hammers.

Galzria - scum. The redirection onto a potential Tracker was scummy, but had to happen since I'm still alive. Given that my new target died and everyone fully expected Galz to use his power (I did expect Fox to use their power. I just forgot Galz was Fox), Galz doesn't get scumread for the redirection and my result is useless.

Robz888 - scum. I stand by what I said D1: I think one of mcmc and Robz is scum and since I'm trusting mcmc is town, Robz is scum. His cases have seemed rather lackluster and grasping at times (I'm mainly remembering his one on me where I was scum for not posting when he thinks I could have. Also, I play on my phone and leave the game tab open. I'm wondering if that means it shows me as online any time I open the internet on my phone before I go to the page I mean to).

Eevee - null. I don't know. I've just got nothing.

gkrieg13 - scummy for a reason I can't put my finger on. This happened with my earlier reads list as well.

Teproc - town. I don't think scum!Teproc brings that much heat on himself claiming to have Doctored faust without any prompting.

theorel - town. I can't find much for a scum argument there, so potentially null.

O - town. as people have said, scum!O makes a really strange play claiming to block Teproc due to a misreading of Ascetic. If it turns out O is scum (and survives) after all this, it was a great play, but I don't think that's the case.

TL;DR: (not that this ended up that long)
Scum: Galz, gkrieg, Robz
Null: ash, eevee
Town: mcmc, Teproc, theorel, O

[Robz888]

Robz888 - scum. I stand by what I said D1: I think one of mcmc and Robz is scum and since I'm trusting mcmc is town, Robz is scum. His cases have seemed rather lackluster and grasping at times (I'm mainly remembering his one on me where I was scum for not posting when he thinks I could have. Also, I play on my phone and leave the game tab open. I'm wondering if that means it shows me as online any time I open the internet on my phone before I go to the page I mean to).

No. This was not the case. It wasn't that you were online, it was that you were specifically working on a post that you never published... at a time when we desperately needed you to vote.

[Robz888]

I'd obviously prefer if someone else hammered ash, but we have to keep in mind that scum will avoid doing so, even if it brings us to No Lynch, regardless of whether ash is scum. So I am willing to hammer ash. He needs another vote first, I believe.

[Galzria]

Sigh. vote: Ash

[Galzria]

L-1, setup for Robz.

[Robz888]

vote: ash

[Archetype]

Vote Count 3.FINAL

Robz888 (2): IDontPlayThisGame, mcmcsalot
Teproc (1): ashersky
ashersky (6): Eevee, O, Teproc, gkrieg13, Galzria, Robz888
Eevee (1): theorel

With 10 alive it takes 6 to lynch. Day 3 will end at this moment.

[Archetype]

ashersky had been sent sprawling off the stage by Robz888. He Up-B'd in an attempt to grab the ledge and have his revenge...but someone grabbed it before he could get to it. So, instead, he just fell to his demise.


ashersky has been lynched. He was Bowser the Vanilla Good.

Night 3 start!
Day 4 will resume January 16th at 11:10 pm

Thread Locked

[Archetype]

Only 9 players remained. Pichu, Fox, Captain Falcon, Mewtwo, Ice Climbers, Mr. Game and Watch, Ganondorf, Kirby, and Link

They had poked hits at each other all game, but now it was time to land the finishing hits. Teproc attempted a Down-Air Attack on gkrieg13, but he shielded just in time and countered with a charged Up Smash that was enough to send Teproc flying up off the screen.

IDontPlayThisGame approached theorel with a weak arial, but failed to hit his mark. As soon as he hit the ground, he was grabbed and back thrown to Robz888 who was patiently awaiting with a charged smash attack. With a faint squeal, IDontPlayThisGame was blasted off center screen.

Teproc has been killed. He was Link the Good Jack of All Trades.
IDontPlayThisGame has been killed. He was Pichu the Good Weak Visitor

Only 7 players remained at this point, but counting Nana and Popo separate brought the player count up to 8...and the Evil players up to 4! The forces of Good could continue fighting, but knew they had no chance of being able to overcome their enemy...

Galzria has been endgamed! He was Fox the Good 2-shot Diverter
Eevee has been endgamed! He was Ganondorf the Vanilla Good
mcmcsalot has been endgamed! He was Mr. Game and Watch the Good Neighborizer
theorel has been endgamed! He was Captain Falcon the Vanilla Good



The Evil team of Robz888 (Ice Climbers, 1-shot Deathproof), O (Kirby, Universal Backup), and gkrieg13 (Mewtwo, 2-shot Inverting Redirector) have won!


Thread Unlocked

[gkrieg13]

Woo hoo!

gg everyone!

[Archetype]

QTs
Mod: https://www.quicktopic.com/52/H/cmwUg42b2tApA
Evil: https://www.quicktopic.com/52/H/qNBDtrWzGKDkA
Robz888: https://www.quicktopic.com/52/H/FGyGY8TZPcZ
O: https://www.quicktopic.com/52/H/YcFZrQr3hmBNY
gkreig: https://www.quicktopic.com/52/H/J4wgBqXbSGyg5
Teproc: https://www.quicktopic.com/52/H/YN7C48t2JAE
seanbean->EFHW: https://www.quicktopic.com/52/H/gHbsNbfHkWi2
Joseph2302: https://www.quicktopic.com/52/H/PZcnWapiygYEQ
Galzria: https://www.quicktopic.com/52/H/QmU8kf8wsnu
IDPTG: https://www.quicktopic.com/52/H/TQrcTPD6Ks5pE
mcmcsalot: https://www.quicktopic.com/52/H/QDq3qQbjaXs
ash: https://www.quicktopic.com/52/H/tpiBaGQ8w2v
DatSwan: https://www.quicktopic.com/52/H/TZnF8UHyswXiC
faust: https://www.quicktopic.com/52/H/Qb4MNT56aKn
Andrew->Eevee: https://www.quicktopic.com/52/H/jaGmrQXjSQHej
chairs->theorel: https://www.quicktopic.com/52/H/MYkhW9khWSF
Spectators: https://www.quicktopic.com/52/H/HzasK32sNBc

mcmcsalot/Robz888: https://www.quicktopic.com/52/H/XybnB29DHrT
mcmcsalot/IDPTG: https://www.quicktopic.com/52/H/P6LfV3PHSC7
mcmcsalot/IDPTG #2: https://www.quicktopic.com/52/H/E5Dfwdi59Ryb

[mcmcsalot]

oh wow robz and gkrieg were scum what a shocker...

[IDontPlayThisGame]

gg

I guess the visit was a mistake

[Archetype]

Night Actions


Night 0 actions:
mcmcsalot Neighborizes Robz888 (3 days)

--

N1 Actions:
Teproc protects faust
mcmcsalot neighborizes IDPTG
Robz888 kills faust
O roleblocks Teproc
gkrieg does nothing
Robz888 asks "Among Pichu, Captain Falcon, Marth, Link, Ganondorf, Fox, Pikachu, and Bowser, are there at least four vanillas?"
Galzria does nothing
seanbean does nothing
IDPTG visits mcmcsalot

N1 Results:
faust dies
mcmcsalot gets QT with IDPTG (9 days)
Evil players are told "Yes"

--

Night 2 actions:
Galzria diverts to EFHW
EFHW tracks Robz888
Teproc tracks EFHW
Robz kills EFHW
Robz asks "Is Pichu Vanilla?"
O Roleblocks gkrieg13
IDPTG Visits Galzria
mcmcsalot neighborizes IDPTG

Night 2 Results:
EFHW receives "Your target targeted EFHW"
Teproc receives "Your target targeted Robz888"
mcmcsalot creates a neighborhood with IDPTG (4 days)
Evil players are told "No"
EFHW dies

--

Night 3 actions:
IDPTG visits theorel
Galzria diverts to theorel
gkrieg kills Teproc
gkrieg redirects IDPTG to Robz888
mcmcsalot neighborizes O

Night 3 Results:
Teproc dies
IDPTG dies
mcmcsalot creates a neighborhood with O but it doesn't matter

[IDontPlayThisGame]

So, did I miss my L-cancel or got grabbed anyway? I need to know.

[mcmcsalot]

Sorry I didn't have enough time to really push town to go for my scum reads, we had a super super super inactive town and its a huge bummer idptg didn't investigate robz or gkrieg night 2 but neverthless great job scum, and thanks to arch for modding!

Also nice play from O blocking tep and convincing most of us that yea thats probably something town!O would do. Welcome to being held to super high standards of play and never getting away with that again

[gkrieg13]

oh wow robz and gkrieg were scum what a shocker...

Yes we were very glad that people didn't seem to believe in your reads.  They were good this game.

[mcmcsalot]

Oh really good play btw, I totally forgot after everything that gkrieg could insta kill idptg, he had to not visit at all, not just visit a town player. Shoot. Jeez scum was just a tad overpowered in my opinion due to the fact that gkrieg could insta kill the cop/confirm all roles, robz takes two lynches and best case scenario of O getting roleblocker happened. I guess gkrieg cant due that if we didn't mass claim and we absolutely lost to crappy play so its no big deal.

[gkrieg13]

Oh really good play btw, I totally forgot after everything that gkrieg could insta kill idptg, he had to not visit at all, not just visit a town player. Shoot. Jeez scum was just a tad overpowered in my opinion due to the fact that gkrieg could insta kill the cop/confirm all roles, robz takes two lynches and best case scenario of O getting roleblocker happened. I guess gkrieg cant due that if we didn't mass claim and we absolutely lost to crappy play so its no big deal.

I think the mass claim ultimately hurt town.  It definitely let us know who to block and redirect, and didn't help town at all really.  Even not knowing who is VT or not, I think it is a mistake to mass claim D1, when most of the roles couldn't work together in any sort of way and scummy roles weren't assured to be scum.

[Teproc]

I suck. This game was so winnable on day 2, how did I mess that up ? Urgh.

[Teproc]

But also congrats scum.

[Teproc]

I mean my analysis was correct... and I even ended up suspected O but him and gkrieg needing to be scum together made the less appealing to lynch than, you know, Datswan. Or Robz, why did I unvote Robz ??

[Eevee]

Great job scum, well played.

I was very terrible in this game.

[Teproc]

Tracking EFHW looks really dumb, but all of the actual scum were in my "too obvious to be doing the kill" list.

[mcmcsalot]

Even the day one lynch was really bad, it was so clearly scum driven because nothing happened all day and it was impossible to get more than 3 people to commit to anything then all the sudden five people were happy to lynch joseph.

[Teproc]

Even the day one lynch was really bad, it was so clearly scum driven because nothing happened all day and it was impossible to get more than 3 people to commit to anything then all the sudden five people were happy to lynch joseph.

Eh, town is happy to lynch basically anyone day 1 too, so I don't know about that.

[O]

Also nice play from O blocking tep and convincing most of us that yea thats probably something town!O would do. Welcome to being held to super high standards of play and never getting away with that again

yea i've really screwed my metagame for this win. Worth it tho!

It's notably satisfying because {me, robz, gkrieg} were a scum team recently and we got destroyed in that one. So lots of redemption in a perfect win.

[mcmcsalot]

I had robz and gkrieg nailed day one, knew they forced the lynch on town roleblocker and then the universal backup blocked our joat from saving or potential doctor and obvious nk. Man I really wish I wasn't on a cruise for the first half of this game.

Oh gosh and the colossal coincidence that scum kills efhw, galz redirects to efhw, and idptg visits galz actually happened. I was going to have a tough time believing that coincidence I think it still could have been salvagable if galz had redirected to anyone else or idptg visited not glaz/efhw.

[mcmcsalot]

Even the day one lynch was really bad, it was so clearly scum driven because nothing happened all day and it was impossible to get more than 3 people to commit to anything then all the sudden five people were happy to lynch joseph.

Eh, town is happy to lynch basically anyone day 1 too, so I don't know about that.

I think that's just not true at all, I mean by deadline sure but we still barely only got the lynch because I didn't want a no lynch day. I have equally difficult times getting my preferred lynch through day one as scum and as town. Easy lynches are because town has gone after town and they have a plethora of scum to rally to their side.

[IDontPlayThisGame]

Oh gosh and the colossal coincidence that scum kills efhw, galz redirects to efhw, and idptg visits galz actually happened. I was going to have a tough time believing that coincidence I think it still could have been salvagable if galz had redirected to anyone else or idptg visited not glaz/efhw.

Well, that only happened because I wasn't paying enough attention at the end of N2. So that's my fault.

[mcmcsalot]

Time for some Voltaire style all too early POE list

Won’t lynch: faust, Idp
Don’t want to lynch: teproc, datswan, Chairs
Are you playing: O, seanbean, andrew
Would lynch: Joseph, galz, ash
Want to lynch: robz, gkrieg

Apparently not too early at all.

[mcmcsalot]

Oh gosh and the colossal coincidence that scum kills efhw, galz redirects to efhw, and idptg visits galz actually happened. I was going to have a tough time believing that coincidence I think it still could have been salvagable if galz had redirected to anyone else or idptg visited not glaz/efhw.

Well, that only happened because I wasn't paying enough attention at the end of N2. So that's my fault.

But if scum had killed someone else you would have cleared efhw, if glaz had targeted someone else you would have cleared that person, it was a mistake compounded by two other actions colliding that really hurt.

[mcmcsalot]

I guess the other issue was that my read on robz was 100% meta and due to how he was reacting to me in our QT as well as his first like 2 posts so it was really really difficult to make more of a case than he's acting incredibly scummy. Still don't know why my gkrieg case didn't get more love I think improperly defending people is one of the easier to find scum tells. Bad defenses are waay better than bad cases because townies are much much less likely to make them.

[Robz888]

Oh really good play btw, I totally forgot after everything that gkrieg could insta kill idptg, he had to not visit at all, not just visit a town player. Shoot. Jeez scum was just a tad overpowered in my opinion due to the fact that gkrieg could insta kill the cop/confirm all roles, robz takes two lynches and best case scenario of O getting roleblocker happened. I guess gkrieg cant due that if we didn't mass claim and we absolutely lost to crappy play so its no big deal.

I think scum was maybe a tad overpowered in terms of power, but keep in mind that was due to picking up the roleblock from the Day 1 Joseph lynch, which was good play on our party, rather than something having to do with the setup.

The massclaim totally neutered Galz and faust, and really neutered Teproc and EFHW, who otherwise could have done a lot of good.

Town had three opportunities to lynch scum before we auto-won, which is pretty much standard. And we needed everything to go perfectly for that auto-win to come up--me not getting lynched yet, IDP choosing to visit at all last night (a huge mistake).

[Robz888]

Yeah, mcmc's reads straight-up terrify me. He nailed gkrieg AGAIN right out of the gate. I thought being mildly suspicious of mcmc would make mcmc less suspicious of me--it did not.

I'm pretty proud of how we handled the Day 2 Teproc-gkrieg-O thing. The plan, which worked, was "Insist that this is town on town on town. This is all town. Town town town. TOWN." The scary thing was Teproc sort-of realizing the only thing that could possibly make more sense than triple town was O and gkrieg being buddies together, but that didn't get pursued enough.

I thought I was going down for sure on Day 3, I hadn't gotten nearly enough attention yet, and there were a bunch of people still around who would have like to lynch me.

Redemption for gkrieg-O-Robz!

[Robz888]

Oh, and I reeeeally liked this setup, actually. Lots of interesting decisions to make, knowing what PRs were out there. It was also cool knowing who could have what but not whether they were active.

I think it was decently balanced, ultimately. I think if we hadn't massclaimed it would have seemed more favorable to town.

[O]

The role outcomes might have ended up slightly scum favored, but town had a tracker, a weak cop, a doctor, a one shot tracker/one shot doctor and got a grand total of one result out to town thanks to the massclaim.

Massclaims aren't always great, people.

[Galzria]

Sorry I didn't have enough time to really push town to go for my scum reads, we had a super super super inactive town and its a huge bummer idptg didn't investigate robz or gkrieg night 2 but neverthless great job scum, and thanks to arch for modding!

Also nice play from O blocking tep and convincing most of us that yea thats probably something town!O would do. Welcome to being held to super high standards of play and never getting away with that again

Most of you.

[Galzria]

oh wow robz and gkrieg were scum what a shocker...

Shocker. I wasn't.

[Galzria]

Well done guys. I was certain O D2, but the unfortunate series of events pulled that read after N2. I was also leaning heavily Robz throughout, and almost (meaninglessly) targeted him instead of EFHW N2. Well, I mean, IDPTG would've ended up dead indicting me as his target to Mcmc. At that point it becomes a "do you believe Galz redirected or is scum" game. Likely still ends in my lynch over Robz. Gkrieg I town read all the way though.

[Robz888]

It's funny that Teproc tracked EFHW. I thought for sure he would track O, and so I convinced O to block gkrieg in hopes that Teproc would see this and come away convinced that O and gkrieg couldn't be scum together.

[EFHW]

oh wow robz and gkrieg were scum what a shocker...

Shocker. I wasn't.

I was going to track you N2, and then I realized I believed you were town. So I tracked Robz. So I saw my own killer targeting me!

[EFHW]

Wait, O was scum all along? Damn.

[EFHW]

I didn't get to have the N1 tracking. That hurt us.

[Galzria]

I didn't get to have the N1 tracking. That hurt us.

Yeah, and unfortunately while I was essentially NK proof (really, it would've been ridiculous for scum to target me), I was just a single target. It's not like they lacked for options. My power to town was essentially useless the moment we massclaimed.

[iguanaiguana]

I think the setup was balanced. Scum played well. Gut MVP vote: O

[Archetype]

So, did I miss my L-cancel or got grabbed anyway? I need to know.

You missed the L-cancel. Got to get good son.

Thanks for playing everyone! And nice job on the (flawless) victory, Robz888, O, and gkrieg13! I totally thought it would be gg with mcmcsalot's great read of Robz888 and O coming out to protect gkrieg13 after Teproc spoke up. I thought O would get lynched for sure there which would have in turn likely gotten gkrieg13 lynched too. Not lynching anyone out of that trio is what really allowed scum to control the rest of the game. So, I will agree with iguana iguana to say MVP: O. Though, obviously, all scum played well - otherwise they wouldn't have won so handily!

[Robz888]

Agreed!

[gkrieg13]

Congrats O!

As many of you had pointed out, we would've had big problems when any of us got lynched.  The problem with me getting lynched is that it didn't let us kill IDPTG by redirecting him, and O would've come under more scrutiny (I think, even though me being scum doesn't effect his claim D2).  Robz being lynched would've been very interesting actually.  I wonder if town would have the guts to lynch him 2 days in a row, but it would've put much more pressure on me, because most of the people that wanted Robz lynch wanted my lynch as well.  O being lynched was the worst case though.  We would've lost our most townread player, and I would no longer have town reads from people because our play looked very much like we were partners.

Also I never did a full reread this game, which was actually kind of nice!

[Galzria]

I just couldn't get the traction against O on D2. The moment the heat got turned up, Mcmc jumped ship and started defending him, and that was the last chance we had of that lynch happening.

[Archetype]

Oh really good play btw, I totally forgot after everything that gkrieg could insta kill idptg, he had to not visit at all, not just visit a town player. Shoot. Jeez scum was just a tad overpowered in my opinion due to the fact that gkrieg could insta kill the cop/confirm all roles, robz takes two lynches and best case scenario of O getting roleblocker happened. I guess gkrieg cant due that if we didn't mass claim and we absolutely lost to crappy play so its no big deal.

Like you said, a lot of scum's "power" came from the fact that Town decided to massclaim. And O happening to get a Roleblocker from the backup. And some misplays by the town's PRs. So I don't think scum was too overpowered, there were just a lot of things that worked out in their favor (plus they played it well).

[schadd]

was thinking o/ash/gkrieg

[O]

I just couldn't get the traction against O on D2. The moment the heat got turned up, Mcmc jumped ship and started defending him, and that was the last chance we had of that lynch happening.

at some point d2 I switched from arguing to change your mind to just dragging you through the mud with me. Not the most wonderful experience but i didn't exactly have many great options

[theorel]

Well, that's unfortunate, but *ahem*

@IDPTG: don't visit anyone unless we lynch scum.

I was convinced O was scum due to the way he pushed the ash lynch, but it was too late.  That's a shame, I think my reads were coming together at that point.

I don't think scum was over-powered, I just think too many roles were active.  Also mass-claims are bad.  I don't remember if I said that in-thread, but I almost did.  In fact, when I went back and looked at it I got a bit of a scum-read on Robz, but my misread on Eevee made me doubt it.

[ashersky]

I was on O and Robz from D1, correctly caught gkrieg the last day.  At least my reads were spot on, even if no one cares to listen anymore.