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Author Topic: Smugglers / Changeling targeting a card not available any more  (Read 992 times)

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Watno

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Smugglers / Changeling targeting a card not available any more
« on: November 19, 2017, 04:37:33 pm »
0

When you play Smugglers or Changeling, can you try (and fail) to gain a card of which no copy is in play (provided the player to your right gained it on his turn / you have it in play)?
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werothegreat

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Re: Smugglers / Changeling targeting a card not available any more
« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2017, 06:03:09 pm »
+1

No?

EDIT: Not sure what you're asking.  If the player to your right gained Ace of Spades last turn, you can try (and fail) to Smuggle one even if the Ace of Spades pile is empty (or not in the Supply).  If they didn't gain Ace of Spades last turn, you can't even try to gain one.  Same logic for Changeling.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2017, 06:04:48 pm by werothegreat »
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Donald X.

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Re: Smugglers / Changeling targeting a card not available any more
« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2017, 06:06:34 pm »
+4

When you play Smugglers or Changeling, can you try (and fail) to gain a card of which no copy is in play (provided the player to your right gained it on his turn / you have it in play)?
The ruling on Smugglers has always been that you can try and fail, and Changeling has the same wording, so in both cases you can try and fail.

The tricky part is that they say "a copy of a card..." and the ruling is that what you are picking is the "a card" not the "a copy." You can pick the card even though the copy isn't available.
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jonaskoelker

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Re: Smugglers / Changeling targeting a card not available any more
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2017, 06:46:08 pm »
0

the ruling is that what you are picking is the "a card" not the "a copy."
Would the following phrasing mean the same: "Choose a name. If CONDITION, gain a card with that name."?

(I'm betting $0 on 'yes'.)
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Donald X.

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Re: Smugglers / Changeling targeting a card not available any more
« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2017, 03:12:55 am »
+1

the ruling is that what you are picking is the "a card" not the "a copy."
Would the following phrasing mean the same: "Choose a name. If CONDITION, gain a card with that name."?

(I'm betting $0 on 'yes'.)
You have to name a card they gained for Smugglers, or a card you have in play for Changeling. So no; "Choose a name" would not be restricted like that and so is not the same. We can make a hypothetical card that would make the situations different, which would be unlikely to ever exist but then you are also asking about an unlikely hypothetical.
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jonaskoelker

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Re: Smugglers / Changeling targeting a card not available any more
« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2017, 04:23:07 am »
0

You have to name a card they gained for Smugglers, or a card you have in play for Changeling.
Ah, then constructing a counterexample is easy, at least for Smugglers: if I play smugglers and none of the relevant piles are empty, I must gain a card; with my non-equivalent formulation, I could name NullPointerException and not gain anything.

Of course, I can always choose not to play Smugglers, but edge case Possession says hello (and really weird corner cases relying on Diadem, Storyteller and shuffle control also say hello, but only parenthetically).

(I believe a similar distinguishing example works the same way for Changeling: if there are copies in the supply of all the cards you have in play, you must gain a card if you play Changeling.)

EDIT: Man, now I'm out $0 on my stupid bet :(
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Jack Rudd

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Re: Smugglers / Changeling targeting a card not available any more
« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2017, 08:48:34 am »
+5

Of course, I can always choose not to play Smugglers, but edge case Possession says hello (and really weird corner cases relying on Diadem, Storyteller and shuffle control also say hello, but only parenthetically).
Herald and Golem are somewhat more normal ways to have a card force-played.
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chipperMDW

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Re: Smugglers / Changeling targeting a card not available any more
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2017, 11:32:59 am »
0

The tricky part is that they say "a copy of a card..." and the ruling is that what you are picking is the "a card" not the "a copy." You can pick the card even though the copy isn't available.

Of course, you can't really be picking an actual card they gained, not as it currently exists. If they gained a BoM and played it later that turn as Caravan, then (I presume) you can't gain Caravan even though the card they gained happens to currently be a Caravan. (And, in general, you have no way of knowing what the card they gained currently even looks like.)

It must be more like you're picking a memory of a card they gained at the time they gained it. Similar to what Treasure Map and Ritual look at.
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jonaskoelker

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Re: Smugglers / Changeling targeting a card not available any more
« Reply #8 on: December 13, 2017, 09:41:53 am »
+1

Of course, you can't really be picking an actual card they gained, not as it currently exists. If they gained a BoM and played it later that turn as Caravan, then (I presume) you can't gain Caravan even though the card they gained happens to currently be a Caravan. (And, in general, you have no way of knowing what the card they gained currently even looks like.)
Right, you're picking something that bijects onto the set of card names (I think), among the things they gained. They gained a BoM and so you can gain a BoM because it was a BoM when they gained it. (That's my theory.)

Anything else would also lead to unsolvable tracking issues. Suppose they have a BoM in their deck, then gain a second one and an Inn, shuffling the two BoMs together. Then they draw them and play one as a Caravan and another as Dungeon. What can you gain? One coherent answer is {BoM}, another is "either {BoM, Caravan} or {BoM, Dungeon} but you can't tell which", and a third is "either {Caravan} or {Dungeon} but you can't tell which". Only in the first case is the answer knowable, and that's a crucial characteristic for a system of rules to have, so that must be the right awser.

It must be more like you're picking a memory of a card they gained at the time they gained it. Similar to what Treasure Map and Ritual look at.
How does the same issue arise with Treasure Map and Ritual?
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chipperMDW

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Re: Smugglers / Changeling targeting a card not available any more
« Reply #9 on: December 13, 2017, 10:29:28 am »
+1

It must be more like you're picking a memory of a card they gained at the time they gained it. Similar to what Treasure Map and Ritual look at.
How does the same issue arise with Treasure Map and Ritual?

Play BoM as Treasure Map; trash it and trash a "real" Treasure Map from your hand. You get four Golds because, regardless of what one of those cards looks like now (a BoM), it was a Treasure Map at the time you trashed it, and Treasure map is checking the memory of what the cards were at the time you trashed them.

Inherit Village. Play Quarry; your Estates cost $0. Buy Ritual, trashing your $0 Estate. The Estate stops being yours, so it stops being an action, so it changes to costing $2. But Ritual says "per $1 it cost" (past tense), so it's been ruled that Ritual checks the memory of what the card looked like at the time you trashed it. You get 0VP instead of 2VP.

These examples are in contrast to how everything else works in Dominion: you check what the card looks like right now; you don't care what it looked like at the moment you trashed it or whatever. So, in the case for Ritual above, if you had instead Villa'd back and trashed the Estate with Remodel (which uses present tense), it wouldn't care that what you trashed used to cost $0; the card you trashed now costs $2, so you can turn it into a $4.

(The fact that the rules work as described in the previous paragraph is my Dominion pet peeve. Nothing's broken yet, but it seems liable to create situations that lead to, as you called them, unresolvable tracking issues.)

EDIT:
Some trivia: M:tG has a concept of looking at the "memory" of an object; it's called "last known information." I think I read in an interview somewhere that Donald was somehow the one who proposed that idea.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2017, 10:52:38 am by chipperMDW »
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fisherman

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Re: Smugglers / Changeling targeting a card not available any more
« Reply #10 on: December 13, 2017, 01:13:15 pm »
0

Wait, now I'm confused. I thought that if I played BoM as say Militia and then played Changeling, I would gain a Militia. But it sounds like people are saying I should gain a BoM instead?
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Jeebus

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Re: Smugglers / Changeling targeting a card not available any more
« Reply #11 on: December 13, 2017, 01:14:53 pm »
+1

Of course, you can't really be picking an actual card they gained, not as it currently exists. If they gained a BoM and played it later that turn as Caravan, then (I presume) you can't gain Caravan even though the card they gained happens to currently be a Caravan. (And, in general, you have no way of knowing what the card they gained currently even looks like.)

It must be more like you're picking a memory of a card they gained at the time they gained it. Similar to what Treasure Map and Ritual look at.

I don't think it can work exactly like that either. Smugglers looks at the cost of the card now, not what the cost was when it was gained. So it seems to be based on the card's name when it was gained and the card's cost at the present moment. This is consistent with the verb tenses in the card text, but it still seems weird that it cares about the actual card at the present moment, since we don't know what cost it has (if it was a BoM).

Hmm, maybe this is a way to make it work: The card you pick has to be one that was gained, i.e. based on the name of a gained card. But the copy of that card has to cost $6 or less. So...

Gain a copy of [a card that the player to your right gained on their last turn] costing up to $6.

Jeebus

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Re: Smugglers / Changeling targeting a card not available any more
« Reply #12 on: December 13, 2017, 01:16:34 pm »
+1

Wait, now I'm confused. I thought that if I played BoM as say Militia and then played Changeling, I would gain a Militia. But it sounds like people are saying I should gain a BoM instead?

No, you gain Militia. Changeling uses present tense and looks at cards you have in play.

chipperMDW

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Re: Smugglers / Changeling targeting a card not available any more
« Reply #13 on: December 13, 2017, 01:52:47 pm »
0

Hmm, maybe this is a way to make it work: The card you pick has to be one that was gained, i.e. based on the name of a gained card. But the copy of that card has to cost $6 or less. So...

Gain a copy of [a card that the player to your right gained on their last turn] costing up to $6.

Yup, that's where I have my mental parentheses.
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Donald X.

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Re: Smugglers / Changeling targeting a card not available any more
« Reply #14 on: December 13, 2017, 05:12:11 pm »
+1

Some trivia: M:tG has a concept of looking at the "memory" of an object; it's called "last known information." I think I read in an interview somewhere that Donald was somehow the one who proposed that idea.
Yes, as is always the case with these things I don't know if someone on the inside also suggested it, but I did suggest last known information to Bethmo back when.
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