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Author Topic: Words in card names  (Read 3300 times)

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AJD

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Words in card names
« on: November 17, 2017, 12:20:26 pm »
+5

Okay, with Nocturne out it's time for this again: here's a list of the words (well, content morphemes) that appear in the names of more than one card or card-shaped thing. With the 12 Boons, gift shoots to the top of the pack. Any errors are my own fault.

12:
Gift
Village       (or 13: Villa, if you consider village to be decomposable into villa + -age)

8:
Castle

6:
Market
Trade

5:
Dame
Merchant
Sir

4:
Haunt
House
Hunt
Man
Treasure
Work

3:
Art          (counting art as a constituent of artificer and artisan)
Bandit
Camp
City
Court
Curse
Duke       (assuming duchy and duchess are decomposable into duke + -y, -ess)
Farm
Ghost
Gold
Ground
Land        (counting land as a constituent of island)
Lose
Mine
Misery      (counting misery as a constituent of miserable)
Royal
Room
Ruin
Sea
Secret
Ship
Smith
Wood
Zombie


2:
Apprentice
Black
Bridge
Caravan
Coin
Copper
Count     (not really; the nobleman count and the verb count as in counting house are unrelated homonyms)
Cut
Delude
Den
Envy
Estate
Fair
Fool
Fort        (assuming fort as a constituent of fortress)
Fortune
Grand
Guard
Hag
Hero
Iron
Keep
King
Library
Make
Mason
Mountain
Necro
Noble
Party
Pass
Post
Prince
Raid
Rat
Road
Scout
Shop
Spy
Stone
Swamp
Tax
Tell
Tower
Town
Triumph
Wall
Watch
War
Way
Wish
Witch
Wolf
Yard


And function words:
15: the
6: of
2: out, over
« Last Edit: December 19, 2017, 01:30:52 am by AJD »
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Cave-o-sapien

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Re: Words in card names
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2017, 12:27:00 pm »
+4

Remind me again why Bank and Mountebank don't qualify.

It seems they both have the same Italian root.
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AJD

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Re: Words in card names
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2017, 12:28:19 pm »
+1

Remind me again why Bank and Mountebank don't qualify.

It seems they both have the same Italian root.

Truuuue, but I think that within English they don't have any kind of synchronic relationship, any more than do, say, "chance" and "cadence". (In other words, the list isn't about etymology; it's about synchronic structure.)
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schadd

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Re: Words in card names
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2017, 04:32:26 pm »
0

my campus has some synchronic structures 🌈 but i don't have classes in them 😪💕
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Cave-o-sapien

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Re: Words in card names
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2017, 04:48:36 pm »
0

Remind me again why Bank and Mountebank don't qualify.

It seems they both have the same Italian root.

Truuuue, but I think that within English they don't have any kind of synchronic relationship, any more than do, say, "chance" and "cadence". (In other words, the list isn't about etymology; it's about synchronic structure.)

Then why do Fortune and Fortuneteller qualify? Isn't one about a large quantity of money and the other is about predicting one's luck or well-being?

I'm not trying to argue; I'm just not familiar with the linguistic terms and criteria you are using for this list.
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samath

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Re: Words in card names
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2017, 05:38:18 pm »
0

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AJD

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Re: Words in card names
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2017, 01:28:57 pm »
+2

Remind me again why Bank and Mountebank don't qualify.

It seems they both have the same Italian root.

Truuuue, but I think that within English they don't have any kind of synchronic relationship, any more than do, say, "chance" and "cadence". (In other words, the list isn't about etymology; it's about synchronic structure.)

Then why do Fortune and Fortuneteller qualify? Isn't one about a large quantity of money and the other is about predicting one's luck or well-being?

I'm not trying to argue; I'm just not familiar with the linguistic terms and criteria you are using for this list.

The line between (a) one word with two different meanings and (b) two words with the same form and/or origin is a fuzzy line, all right, and I'll admit to basically going by gut feeling and judgment call on these. So, like, it's my impression that, in the minds of typical English speakers, the two meanings of fortune are conceptualized as two (related?) meanings of the same word, while the similarity between the last syllable of mountebank and the word bank is conceptualized as coincidental. But I don't have strong evidence for this other than gut feeling and educated guessing.
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mameluke

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Re: Words in card names
« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2017, 04:07:15 pm »
+1

Remind me again why Bank and Mountebank don't qualify.

It seems they both have the same Italian root.

Truuuue, but I think that within English they don't have any kind of synchronic relationship, any more than do, say, "chance" and "cadence". (In other words, the list isn't about etymology; it's about synchronic structure.)

Then why do Fortune and Fortuneteller qualify? Isn't one about a large quantity of money and the other is about predicting one's luck or well-being?

I'm not trying to argue; I'm just not familiar with the linguistic terms and criteria you are using for this list.

The line between (a) one word with two different meanings and (b) two words with the same form and/or origin is a fuzzy line, all right, and I'll admit to basically going by gut feeling and judgment call on these. So, like, it's my impression that, in the minds of typical English speakers, the two meanings of fortune are conceptualized as two (related?) meanings of the same word, while the similarity between the last syllable of mountebank and the word bank is conceptualized as coincidental. But I don't have strong evidence for this other than gut feeling and educated guessing.

Even if English speakers recognized in some way that the "bank" in "Mountebank" had something to do with banks, they also likely would have to assign some meaning to the "Mounte" part, which they do not. This is pretty much a rare word anyhow, so typical speakers of English are likely to not have any transparent morphological composition for it.

EDIT: The two kinds of Fortune are at least polysemes in English. It's not an accident that they have the same form here, in the same way that the word iron "a metal" and iron "a device for removing creases" are different things but certainly related to each other. Sometimes we have totally different words that just overlap in pronunciation, like bat "a winged mammal" and bat "a object for hitting a baseball", which have nothing to with each other in meaning or origin.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2017, 04:10:10 pm by mameluke »
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Donald X.

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Re: Words in card names
« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2017, 04:45:26 pm »
+1

Even if English speakers recognized in some way that the "bank" in "Mountebank" had something to do with banks, they also likely would have to assign some meaning to the "Mounte" part, which they do not. This is pretty much a rare word anyhow, so typical speakers of English are likely to not have any transparent morphological composition for it.
Hmmm? They're the dudes who mount a bank (to sell stuff from it). Mount like getting on top of and bank like a river bank.
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mameluke

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Re: Words in card names
« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2017, 06:54:37 pm »
0

Even if English speakers recognized in some way that the "bank" in "Mountebank" had something to do with banks, they also likely would have to assign some meaning to the "Mounte" part, which they do not. This is pretty much a rare word anyhow, so typical speakers of English are likely to not have any transparent morphological composition for it.
Hmmm? They're the dudes who mount a bank (to sell stuff from it). Mount like getting on top of and bank like a river bank.

In this case I think it's actually supposed to be the "bench" meaning of "bank" (which as far as I know is obsolete in English, if it ever existed), and these two meanings are distantly related to each other (as well as the financial bank), but their meanings are so far from each other that English speakers don't really think of them as being the same.
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Donald X.

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Re: Words in card names
« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2017, 07:32:28 pm »
0

Even if English speakers recognized in some way that the "bank" in "Mountebank" had something to do with banks, they also likely would have to assign some meaning to the "Mounte" part, which they do not. This is pretty much a rare word anyhow, so typical speakers of English are likely to not have any transparent morphological composition for it.
Hmmm? They're the dudes who mount a bank (to sell stuff from it). Mount like getting on top of and bank like a river bank.

In this case I think it's actually supposed to be the "bench" meaning of "bank" (which as far as I know is obsolete in English, if it ever existed), and these two meanings are distantly related to each other (as well as the financial bank), but their meanings are so far from each other that English speakers don't really think of them as being the same.
"Bench" and "bank as in river bank" have the same distant origin, so I'm not sure if you're disagreeing with me and if so what about.

I am an English speaker and I personally have always thought "they mount a bank."
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mameluke

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Re: Words in card names
« Reply #11 on: November 18, 2017, 07:43:57 pm »
0

Even if English speakers recognized in some way that the "bank" in "Mountebank" had something to do with banks, they also likely would have to assign some meaning to the "Mounte" part, which they do not. This is pretty much a rare word anyhow, so typical speakers of English are likely to not have any transparent morphological composition for it.
Hmmm? They're the dudes who mount a bank (to sell stuff from it). Mount like getting on top of and bank like a river bank.

In this case I think it's actually supposed to be the "bench" meaning of "bank" (which as far as I know is obsolete in English, if it ever existed), and these two meanings are distantly related to each other (as well as the financial bank), but their meanings are so far from each other that English speakers don't really think of them as being the same.
"Bench" and "bank as in river bank" have the same distant origin, so I'm not sure if you're disagreeing with me and if so what about.

I am an English speaker and I personally have always thought "they mount a bank."

If you think they're mounting a river bank, that's fine, but that's still folk etymology since the borrowing from French / Italian is referring to a bench or raised platform, just like in the card artwork. The bench meaning of 'bank' is probably unavailable to English speakers at least currently -- the Oxford English Dictionary lists it as historical.
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Donald X.

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Re: Words in card names
« Reply #12 on: November 18, 2017, 08:05:57 pm »
0

Even if English speakers recognized in some way that the "bank" in "Mountebank" had something to do with banks, they also likely would have to assign some meaning to the "Mounte" part, which they do not. This is pretty much a rare word anyhow, so typical speakers of English are likely to not have any transparent morphological composition for it.
Hmmm? They're the dudes who mount a bank (to sell stuff from it). Mount like getting on top of and bank like a river bank.

In this case I think it's actually supposed to be the "bench" meaning of "bank" (which as far as I know is obsolete in English, if it ever existed), and these two meanings are distantly related to each other (as well as the financial bank), but their meanings are so far from each other that English speakers don't really think of them as being the same.
"Bench" and "bank as in river bank" have the same distant origin, so I'm not sure if you're disagreeing with me and if so what about.

I am an English speaker and I personally have always thought "they mount a bank."

If you think they're mounting a river bank, that's fine, but that's still folk etymology since the borrowing from French / Italian is referring to a bench or raised platform, just like in the card artwork. The bench meaning of 'bank' is probably unavailable to English speakers at least currently -- the Oxford English Dictionary lists it as historical.
I don't think they're mounting a river bank, I think they're getting up on a little stage or something. But when I look at the word, I see "mount a bank," bank as in river bank, noting that that meaning of bank doesn't require the bank to be by a river.

I am still not sure what argument I'm supposed to be having, so I'm going to go back to the start, as is my wont. You said: "Even if English speakers recognized in some way that the "bank" in "Mountebank" had something to do with banks, they also likely would have to assign some meaning to the "Mounte" part, which they do not." English speakers, anecdotal evidence me, assign "mount" to the "mounte" part. You said they don't assign "mounte" meaning; I am a counterexample.
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werothegreat

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Re: Words in card names
« Reply #13 on: November 18, 2017, 08:07:57 pm »
+4

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mameluke

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Re: Words in card names
« Reply #14 on: November 18, 2017, 08:22:02 pm »
0

Even if English speakers recognized in some way that the "bank" in "Mountebank" had something to do with banks, they also likely would have to assign some meaning to the "Mounte" part, which they do not. This is pretty much a rare word anyhow, so typical speakers of English are likely to not have any transparent morphological composition for it.
Hmmm? They're the dudes who mount a bank (to sell stuff from it). Mount like getting on top of and bank like a river bank.

In this case I think it's actually supposed to be the "bench" meaning of "bank" (which as far as I know is obsolete in English, if it ever existed), and these two meanings are distantly related to each other (as well as the financial bank), but their meanings are so far from each other that English speakers don't really think of them as being the same.
"Bench" and "bank as in river bank" have the same distant origin, so I'm not sure if you're disagreeing with me and if so what about.

I am an English speaker and I personally have always thought "they mount a bank."

If you think they're mounting a river bank, that's fine, but that's still folk etymology since the borrowing from French / Italian is referring to a bench or raised platform, just like in the card artwork. The bench meaning of 'bank' is probably unavailable to English speakers at least currently -- the Oxford English Dictionary lists it as historical.
I don't think they're mounting a river bank, I think they're getting up on a little stage or something. But when I look at the word, I see "mount a bank," bank as in river bank, noting that that meaning of bank doesn't require the bank to be by a river.

I am still not sure what argument I'm supposed to be having, so I'm going to go back to the start, as is my wont. You said: "Even if English speakers recognized in some way that the "bank" in "Mountebank" had something to do with banks, they also likely would have to assign some meaning to the "Mounte" part, which they do not." English speakers, anecdotal evidence me, assign "mount" to the "mounte" part. You said they don't assign "mounte" meaning; I am a counterexample.

OK, I wasn't clear -- I meant that if speakers, including you, want to interpret the word "mountebank" as composed of more than one morpheme, then there are just two options in current English for the "bank" part: either the financial institution or the side of the river. So, either this term means to get up on top of a building where they perform transactions of money, or on top of the side of a river. Neither interpretation has anything to do with the word mountebank, so it is difficult to say that this word is really polymorphemic.

You may recognize parts of words within this word, but especially since you mention that you "note that that meaning of bank doesn't require the bank to be by a river", this seems like you really don't think this word is made up of the word "bank" at all.

Another example: 'dismantle' -- you might recognize the part of the word 'mantle', the thing above a fireplace, but actually this word has nothing to do with fireplaces. It just means to take anything apart. For most English speakers this word has just one morpheme. Originally, of course, this word meant "to take off a cloak", since there is this other meaning of the word mantle that refers to clothing, but this word history is entirely irrelevant to how current English speakers store this word in their mind.
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Donald X.

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Re: Words in card names
« Reply #15 on: November 19, 2017, 12:17:32 am »
+1

You may recognize parts of words within this word, but especially since you mention that you "note that that meaning of bank doesn't require the bank to be by a river", this seems like you really don't think this word is made up of the word "bank" at all.
noun
1.
a long pile or heap; mass:
a bank of earth; a bank of clouds.
2.
a slope or acclivity.
3.
Physical Geography. the slope immediately bordering a stream course along which the water normally runs.

A "long pile or heap" doesn't have to be next to a river (neither does a "slope or acclivity").

I have repeated "bank as in river bank" to be clear that I don't mean a financial institution. I didn't mean by the side of a river either though, which I clarified with the passage you quote from me. Not clear enough though. Bank as in a long pile or heap; mass: a bank of earth.
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mameluke

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Re: Words in card names
« Reply #16 on: November 19, 2017, 12:24:10 am »
+2

Fair enough. I was not familiar with that definition -- to me, the bank you were referring to had to mean the side of a river, not just any mass of earth. Hence the confusion.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2017, 12:27:29 am by mameluke »
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popsofctown

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Re: Words in card names
« Reply #17 on: November 19, 2017, 08:58:31 am »
+2

the sequences "haunt house" and "bandit camp" appearing just from alphabetization are creepy.
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Cave-o-sapien

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Re: Words in card names
« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2017, 11:34:02 am »
0

The line between (a) one word with two different meanings and (b) two words with the same form and/or origin is a fuzzy line, all right, and I'll admit to basically going by gut feeling and judgment call on these. So, like, it's my impression that, in the minds of typical English speakers, the two meanings of fortune are conceptualized as two (related?) meanings of the same word, while the similarity between the last syllable of mountebank and the word bank is conceptualized as coincidental. But I don't have strong evidence for this other than gut feeling and educated guessing.

Thanks, I understand the terminology much better now.

So now I agree that Mountebank/Bank don't qualify; but I also think Counting House/Count is certainly disqualified (unless we're talking Sesame Street's Count). I'm on the fence about Fortune and Fortuneteller. I could be convinced either way.
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AJD

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Re: Words in card names
« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2017, 01:06:48 pm »
0

Count doesn’t qualify; but since count is synchronically a morpheme in counting house (unlike bank in mountebank) I thought it was better to list it with a note that it doesn’t really qualify than to omit it entirely.
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Re: Words in card names
« Reply #20 on: November 22, 2017, 06:02:09 pm »
0

I have a related set of questions (assume all instances of cards also refers to uh-card-shaped-things):

1. How many cards can be uniquely identified by a character string of length n that is a substring of their name? (For example, "teb" is a string of length 3 that is only found in "Mountebank".) Ignore punctuation.

2. How many cards cannot be uniquely identified by a substring of any length? I guess that's basically what this list is about anyway (although also counting all the cases where the substring has no etymological connection, unlike this list).

3. How many cards can only be uniquely identified by their full name? Mint counts, since its length 3 substrings are "MIN" (shared with Mine) and "INT" (shared with Labyrinth). Mine, however, is part of the previous set, since its full name is shared with Abandoned Mine.
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AJD

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Re: Words in card names
« Reply #21 on: November 24, 2018, 12:39:09 am »
+1

Time to update this! And correct some errors from last time. Any new or uncaught errors are my own fault.

13:
Village       (or 14: Villa, if you consider village to be decomposable into villa + -age)

12:
Gift

8:
Castle

6:
Market
Merchant
Trade
Treasure

5:
Dame
Sir
Work

4:
City
Gold
Haunt
House
Hunt
Man
Ship

3:
Art          (counting art as a constituent of artificer and artisan)
Bandit
Camp
Court
Curse
Duke       (assuming duchy and duchess are decomposable into duke + -y, -ess)
Fair
Farm
Ghost
Ground
Guard
Land       (counting land as a constituent of island)
Lose
Mine
Misery      (counting misery as a constituent of miserable)
Mountain
Road
Room
Royal
Ruin
Sea
Secret
Smith
Witch
Wood
Zombie

2:
Apprentice
Black
Border
Bridge
Capital
Caravan
Coin
Copper
Count    (not really)
Cut
Delude
Den
Earth
Envy
Estate
Explore
Field
Flag
Fool
Fort        (assuming fort is a constituent of fortress)
Fortune
Grand
Guild
Hag
Hall
Hero
Horn
Iron
Keep
King
Library
Make
Mason
Necro
Noble
Party
Pass
Post
Prince
Raid
Rat
Scout
Shop
Silk
Spice
Spy
Stone
Swamp
Tax
Tell
Tower
Town
Triumph
Wall
War
Watch
Way
Wind
Wish
Wolf
Yard

Function words:
15: the
7: of
3: out
2: over
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AJD

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Re: Words in card names
« Reply #22 on: November 24, 2018, 01:51:43 am »
0

(I thought about counting duke as the root of ducat and miser as the root of misery and miserable; but although that's certainly etymologically true, I don't really think it's synchronically true.)
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