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Author Topic: Bard is not weak  (Read 4613 times)

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Skumpy

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Re: Bard is not weak
« Reply #50 on: December 25, 2017, 08:31:08 pm »
0

Tracker > Bard

Considering some of the Boons gain Gold, Silver, or Will-O-Wisps (basically Laboratories in the early game), Tracker's topdecking ability is way more valuable to me than $1 extra from Bard.

Considering some of the cards in the game cost 5, the extra 1 from Bard is way more valuable than the topdecking.

I feel like Bard is somewhat effective in money strategies, making it better for hitting Province later in the game. Tracker is more of a utility card for engines that you pick up on a spare buy.

Bard/BM is probably okay, but I think its main utility is definitely that it's very good at hitting 5 after the first reshuffle. I agree with your characterization of Tracker.

Another card whose main utility is that it's very good at getting you $5 cards after the first reshuffle is Feast.

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Drab Emordnilap

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Re: Bard is not weak
« Reply #51 on: December 26, 2017, 10:57:18 am »
+2

Bard/BM is probably okay, but I think its main utility is definitely that it's very good at hitting 5 after the first reshuffle. I agree with your characterization of Tracker.

Another card whose main utility is that it's very good at getting you $5 cards after the first reshuffle is Feast.

Another card whose main utility is that it's very good at getting you $5 cards after the first reshuffle is Silver.
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Awaclus

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Re: Bard is not weak
« Reply #52 on: December 26, 2017, 01:43:26 pm »
+1

Bard/BM is probably okay, but I think its main utility is definitely that it's very good at hitting 5 after the first reshuffle. I agree with your characterization of Tracker.

Another card whose main utility is that it's very good at getting you $5 cards after the first reshuffle is Feast.

Another card whose main utility is that it's very good at getting you $5 cards after the first reshuffle is Silver.

Except it isn't very good, it's the standard by which everything is judged and Feast and Bard are very good in comparison.
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Screwyioux

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Re: Bard is not weak
« Reply #53 on: March 27, 2018, 11:30:36 am »
+2

One thing to bear in mind when evaluating booners and hexers is that some of the balancing comes from unpredictability.
Yes, everything you described makes up a fine $4 terminal silver, but some of Bard's general ineffectiveness comes from not being able to plan your turn or your shuffle around it.

Usually, putting a card in your deck means you have a plan for it, right? At least it should. So where does Bard actually fit into sound decision making in Dominion? When you have essentially infinite terminal space due to excessive villages or no competing terminal actions, so whenever any other terminal silver would fill the role.

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Re: Bard is not weak
« Reply #54 on: April 02, 2018, 02:09:03 pm »
+1

One thing to bear in mind when evaluating booners and hexers is that some of the balancing comes from unpredictability.
Yes, everything you described makes up a fine $4 terminal silver, but some of Bard's general ineffectiveness comes from not being able to plan your turn or your shuffle around it.

Usually, putting a card in your deck means you have a plan for it, right? At least it should. So where does Bard actually fit into sound decision making in Dominion? When you have essentially infinite terminal space due to excessive villages or no competing terminal actions, so whenever any other terminal silver would fill the role.

Precisely. Whenever you decide to get Bard, the rationale is always "eh, sure, why not?" The things it does (trashing, +Buy) can be important, but only if you can do them a lot and reliably. Bard does neither, so it will never be a crucial card. That alone is enough to make it very weak.
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Awaclus

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Re: Bard is not weak
« Reply #55 on: April 02, 2018, 02:14:39 pm »
0

Precisely. Whenever you decide to get Bard, the rationale is always "eh, sure, why not?" The things it does (trashing, +Buy) can be important, but only if you can do them a lot and reliably. Bard does neither, so it will never be a crucial card. That alone is enough to make it very weak.

No, the rationale is always "I need to ramp up to price point X by next shuffle". Which Bard does, so it's a crucial card whenever that's crucial.
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Screwyioux

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Re: Bard is not weak
« Reply #56 on: April 02, 2018, 04:04:04 pm »
+1

Precisely. Whenever you decide to get Bard, the rationale is always "eh, sure, why not?" The things it does (trashing, +Buy) can be important, but only if you can do them a lot and reliably. Bard does neither, so it will never be a crucial card. That alone is enough to make it very weak.

No, the rationale is always "I need to ramp up to price point X by next shuffle". Which Bard does, so it's a crucial card whenever that's crucial.

So Bard is a silver. Great, we're on the same page.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2018, 04:07:35 pm by Screwyioux »
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Awaclus

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Re: Bard is not weak
« Reply #57 on: April 02, 2018, 04:13:26 pm »
0

Precisely. Whenever you decide to get Bard, the rationale is always "eh, sure, why not?" The things it does (trashing, +Buy) can be important, but only if you can do them a lot and reliably. Bard does neither, so it will never be a crucial card. That alone is enough to make it very weak.

No, the rationale is always "I need to ramp up to price point X by next shuffle". Which Bard does, so it's a crucial card whenever that's crucial.

So Bard is a silver. Great, we're on the same page.

No, it's more comparable to a terminal Gold.
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Re: Bard is not weak
« Reply #58 on: April 02, 2018, 04:13:38 pm »
+2

Precisely. Whenever you decide to get Bard, the rationale is always "eh, sure, why not?" The things it does (trashing, +Buy) can be important, but only if you can do them a lot and reliably. Bard does neither, so it will never be a crucial card. That alone is enough to make it very weak.

No, the rationale is always "I need to ramp up to price point X by next shuffle". Which Bard does, so it's a crucial card whenever that's crucial.

So Bard is a silver. Great, we're on the same page.
Well by your reasoning Swindler is also just a Silver because man is it unreliable.
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Screwyioux

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Re: Bard is not weak
« Reply #59 on: April 02, 2018, 04:20:34 pm »
+1

Precisely. Whenever you decide to get Bard, the rationale is always "eh, sure, why not?" The things it does (trashing, +Buy) can be important, but only if you can do them a lot and reliably. Bard does neither, so it will never be a crucial card. That alone is enough to make it very weak.

No, the rationale is always "I need to ramp up to price point X by next shuffle". Which Bard does, so it's a crucial card whenever that's crucial.

So Bard is a silver. Great, we're on the same page.
Well by your reasoning Swindler is also just a Silver because man is it unreliable.

Swingler does the same thing the vast majority of times you see it-- gives you the opportunity to make your opponent's deck worse. How well it does that is super unreliable, but it does a thing, and you buy it to do that thing.

I do see what you're getting at though. As far as it being a terminal gold, I disagree and think a terminal gold would be much more powerful.

It has a 2/12 chance to be a terminal gold, but if it did that every time, that would mean you could say, "I could use terminal $3, I'll buy this."
You can't do that with Bard.
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Screwyioux

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Re: Bard is not weak
« Reply #60 on: April 02, 2018, 04:27:08 pm »
+1

Let's make this point by talking about something irrelevant-- Gloomhaven.

It's an RPG where you spend resources to upgrade your character with various stat buffs and special effects.
You want to get through shields, you buy the shield breakey thingy. You want to heal, you buy the healing thingy.

You can also spend a much more common resource, or less of whatever you're spending, etc, to get a random chance to do those things.
It's cheaper, a lot cheaper. But you it's not as good to heal or shield break at random times. It's good to do it when your opponent has a shield, or you need health.

Booners kind of have that same drawback.

Man, Gloomhaven is cool.
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Screwyioux

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Re: Bard is not weak
« Reply #61 on: April 02, 2018, 04:30:34 pm »
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The other argument for buying Bard over silver is when all of the possible boons are useful to you, useful enough to be worth a terminal action. That situation is quite rare.
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markusin

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Re: Bard is not weak
« Reply #62 on: April 02, 2018, 04:44:56 pm »
+2

Precisely. Whenever you decide to get Bard, the rationale is always "eh, sure, why not?" The things it does (trashing, +Buy) can be important, but only if you can do them a lot and reliably. Bard does neither, so it will never be a crucial card. That alone is enough to make it very weak.

No, the rationale is always "I need to ramp up to price point X by next shuffle". Which Bard does, so it's a crucial card whenever that's crucial.

So Bard is a silver. Great, we're on the same page.
Well by your reasoning Swindler is also just a Silver because man is it unreliable.

Swingler does the same thing the vast majority of times you see it-- gives you the opportunity to make your opponent's deck worse. How well it does that is super unreliable, but it does a thing, and you buy it to do that thing.

I do see what you're getting at though. As far as it being a terminal gold, I disagree and think a terminal gold would be much more powerful.

It has a 2/12 chance to be a terminal gold, but if it did that every time, that would mean you could say, "I could use terminal $3, I'll buy this."
You can't do that with Bard.

It's a terminal Gold more often than that because of the +1 Card boon and the draw 2 discard 2 boon that can draw Copper even on the second shuffle. When it isn't a terminal Gold, it's doing other useful things for you, as outlined in the OP.

A terminal Gold would still be good for other things, though.
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Awaclus

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Re: Bard is not weak
« Reply #63 on: April 02, 2018, 05:40:37 pm »
0

It has a 2/12 chance to be a terminal gold, but if it did that every time, that would mean you could say, "I could use terminal $3, I'll buy this."
You can't do that with Bard.

You can do it with Bard. If it doesn't give you the equivalent of +$3 (which it does 50% of the time as concluded in the OP), it gives you +$2, which still helps you hit $5, plus something else that benefits you in some other way.

EDIT: As it turns out, I didn't conclude that in the OP. I must have concluded it on Discord.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2018, 05:43:15 pm by Awaclus »
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Screwyioux

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Re: Bard is not weak
« Reply #64 on: April 03, 2018, 09:16:37 am »
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It has a 2/12 chance to be a terminal gold, but if it did that every time, that would mean you could say, "I could use terminal $3, I'll buy this."
You can't do that with Bard.

You can do it with Bard. If it doesn't give you the equivalent of +$3 (which it does 50% of the time as concluded in the OP), it gives you +$2, which still helps you hit $5, plus something else that benefits you in some other way.

EDIT: As it turns out, I didn't conclude that in the OP. I must have concluded it on Discord.

I'm definitely not arguing that the boons are nothing. They're added value to the $2. But you can't put that value on the same level as one one of the boons because of your inability to anticipate it for your build/shuffle.

Bard can do things that a good card would do, but when is buying it instead of silver actually a good idea? When any given one of those things is worth your action due to excess actions in pool or non-competition from any other terminal action you'd rather play.

Sound familiar?

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Awaclus

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Re: Bard is not weak
« Reply #65 on: April 03, 2018, 09:34:51 am »
0

Bard can do things that a good card would do, but when is buying it instead of silver actually a good idea? When any given one of those things is worth your action due to excess actions in pool or non-competition from any other terminal action you'd rather play.

It doesn't have to be any given one, it has to be most of them. And most of them are worth your action when you're buying a terminal to boost your early game economy. You don't plan your strategy around the 1 in 12 chance of revealing Moon's Gift because 11 out of 12 times it doesn't happen.
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Re: Bard is not weak
« Reply #66 on: April 03, 2018, 10:04:12 am »
+3

Bard can do things that a good card would do, but when is buying it instead of silver actually a good idea? When any given one of those things is worth your action due to excess actions in pool or non-competition from any other terminal action you'd rather play.

It doesn't have to be any given one, it has to be most of them. And most of them are worth your action when you're buying a terminal to boost your early game economy. You don't plan your strategy around the 1 in 12 chance of revealing Moon's Gift because 11 out of 12 times it doesn't happen.

I think the impact of Bard is largest in the early game. Awaclus points this out, but it really needs to be emphasized. Dominion is a game where snowballing early is possible, and Bard is often more effective than the other cards at its price point at accomplishing this. Hitting $6 with Bard, gaining a Wisp, getting two engine components with Earth's gift on gain-limited boards, or helping you find your turn 3 buy sooner with Sun's Gift or Moon's Gift all works towards this. Even the Gold gain is situationally powerful.

Later in the game, the terminal space taken up by Bard is significant, and you are a lot less happy to play Bard over other terminals that help keep your deck running.

There is also issue that not every game is a race to hit $5. In such games Bard might be too much of an opportunity cost, and the comparison to Fortune Teller and Navigator is much more apt.
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