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Author Topic: Bard is not weak  (Read 4452 times)

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Dingan

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Re: Bard is not weak
« Reply #25 on: November 17, 2017, 06:28:04 pm »
0

The fact that you don't get to choose which of the effects is a big deal. Image how much weaker Steward would be if instead of saying "Choose one:..." it said "Do one of these three things, chosen at random:...". Bard is like that but with (up to) 12 things instead of 3.

Bard is not like that at all. You get the most important effect, which is +$2, every time, and almost all of the Boons are strictly beneficial in almost any situation.

Maybe Governor is a better analogy. "+1 Action. Choose one: ..." >> "+1 Action. Do one of these three things, chosen at random:..." Idk, maybe I'm a bit jaded cus I just played a Scrying Pool game where I got 2 Bards specifically for their +Buy and no othe reason, and well lets just say that did not work out in my favor.

Bard also feels a bit like Black Market to me. In some cases it's just a terminal Silver but in other cases it's terminal Silver plus jackpot.

EDIT: All I'm really saying is that the randomness of the bonus is just that - random. It may or may not benefit you. And as such be careful when you are putting yourself in a position where you are relying on the bonus. (Which can be said about any Fate card.)
« Last Edit: November 17, 2017, 06:33:54 pm by Dingan »
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Witherweaver

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Re: Bard is not weak
« Reply #26 on: November 17, 2017, 06:33:16 pm »
+3

The fact that you don't get to choose which of the effects is a big deal. Image how much weaker Steward would be if instead of saying "Choose one:..." it said "Do one of these three things, chosen at random:...". Bard is like that but with (up to) 12 things instead of 3.

Bard is not like that at all. You get the most important effect, which is +$2, every time, and almost all of the Boons are strictly beneficial in almost any situation.

Maybe Governor is a better analogy. "+1 Action. Choose one: ..." >> "+1 Action. Do one of these three things, chosen at random:..." Idk, maybe I'm a bit jaded cus I just played a Scrying Pool game where I got 2 Bards specifically for their +Buy and no othe reason, and well lets just say that did not work out in my favor.

Bard also feels a bit like Black Market to me. In some cases it's just a terminal Silver but in other cases it's terminal Silver plus jackpot.

Some times you just don't know how a song is going to inspire you.
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Kirian

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Re: Bard is not weak
« Reply #27 on: November 17, 2017, 06:52:16 pm »
+2

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I think you meant to say "vanillages."
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Donald X.

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Re: Bard is not weak
« Reply #28 on: November 17, 2017, 07:48:55 pm »
+6

This all makes sense for Bard, but then it seems kinda funny that it costs $4 while Tracker can cost $2.

I mostly just don't get why we have both Tracker and Bard in the set. Have there ever been two cards with such similar effect in the same expansion?
Are you saying that the ability to put cards on your deck is really similar to nothing?

I don't think I am, but maybe I should have said "on-play effect"
I don't understand why you wouldn't consider the whole card. Adventures has identical on-play effects for Duplicate and Distant Lands, Royal Carriage and Transmogrify, Ratcatcher and Guide.
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Reykjavik

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Re: Bard is not weak
« Reply #29 on: November 17, 2017, 09:37:43 pm »
0

You don't get to pick though. That is a huge downside. It makes it tough to build and execute a plan. It might be worth picking up, but not over something more reliably good.
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Awaclus

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Re: Bard is not weak
« Reply #30 on: November 18, 2017, 02:38:41 am »
0

You don't get to pick though. That is a huge downside. It makes it tough to build and execute a plan. It might be worth picking up, but not over something more reliably good.

It doesn't make it tough to build and execute a plan. This is how you do it:

1. identify a key $5 you have to buy on turn 3 or 4
2. buy Bard
3. Bard lets you buy that key $5 on turn 3 or 4
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gloures

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Re: Bard is not weak
« Reply #31 on: November 18, 2017, 03:08:08 am »
+1

You don't get to pick though. That is a huge downside. It makes it tough to build and execute a plan. It might be worth picking up, but not over something more reliably good.

It doesn't make it tough to build and execute a plan. This is how you do it:

1. identify a key $5 you have to buy on turn 3 or 4
2. buy Bard
3. Bard lets you buy that key $5 on turn 3 or 4

4. Have Bard collide with your terminal 5 cost card you just bought in the next shuffle


I mean, sure, Bard can be good at getting 5 in turns 3/4, so it sometimes can be a good opening, a bit like Horse Traders (though HT is definitely better at reaching 5), which is a decent opener, but Horse Traders gives +buy which can be super important later. One thing to also note is that Silver is also actually a pretty good card at getting 5 and you will always have that.

But, yeah, if you have spare actions and/or want action payload Bard can be a good card, but that's pretty much the same situation where you would get Fortune Teller, Navigator, Harvest and a few other power cards... (granted Bard is probably better than those, or at least in the same level as Navigator)
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Awaclus

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Re: Bard is not weak
« Reply #32 on: November 18, 2017, 04:00:51 am »
+1

You don't get to pick though. That is a huge downside. It makes it tough to build and execute a plan. It might be worth picking up, but not over something more reliably good.

It doesn't make it tough to build and execute a plan. This is how you do it:

1. identify a key $5 you have to buy on turn 3 or 4
2. buy Bard
3. Bard lets you buy that key $5 on turn 3 or 4

4. Have Bard collide with your terminal 5 cost card you just bought in the next shuffle


I mean, sure, Bard can be good at getting 5 in turns 3/4, so it sometimes can be a good opening, a bit like Horse Traders (though HT is definitely better at reaching 5), which is a decent opener, but Horse Traders gives +buy which can be super important later. One thing to also note is that Silver is also actually a pretty good card at getting 5 and you will always have that.

But, yeah, if you have spare actions and/or want action payload Bard can be a good card, but that's pretty much the same situation where you would get Fortune Teller, Navigator, Harvest and a few other power cards... (granted Bard is probably better than those, or at least in the same level as Navigator)

It's way better than Navigator. It's more comparable to Scavenger's power level.
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Titandrake

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Re: Bard is not weak
« Reply #33 on: November 18, 2017, 06:03:08 am »
+1

You don't get to pick though. That is a huge downside. It makes it tough to build and execute a plan. It might be worth picking up, but not over something more reliably good.

It doesn't make it tough to build and execute a plan. This is how you do it:

1. identify a key $5 you have to buy on turn 3 or 4
2. buy Bard
3. Bard lets you buy that key $5 on turn 3 or 4

4. Have Bard collide with your terminal 5 cost card you just bought in the next shuffle


I mean, sure, Bard can be good at getting 5 in turns 3/4, so it sometimes can be a good opening, a bit like Horse Traders (though HT is definitely better at reaching 5), which is a decent opener, but Horse Traders gives +buy which can be super important later. One thing to also note is that Silver is also actually a pretty good card at getting 5 and you will always have that.

But, yeah, if you have spare actions and/or want action payload Bard can be a good card, but that's pretty much the same situation where you would get Fortune Teller, Navigator, Harvest and a few other power cards... (granted Bard is probably better than those, or at least in the same level as Navigator)

It's way better than Navigator. It's more comparable to Scavenger's power level.

Eh.....not sure I agree. Scavenger's midgame of trashing mostly Copper isn't great, but its late game of trashing Province to help buy more Provinces is pretty good.

You have argued that Bard is not weak because it's good at hitting $5 and giving money early. Sure, I agree. But Silver isn't that much worse than Bard at helping you hit $5, and it's non-terminal. (I'd like to see the math if you disagree.) Is opening Bard worth not opening the other $4s, and worth having an extra terminal in your deck? I would guess that the answer is "No" at least half the time. Is buying Bard after the opening worth it? Again, I'd guess "No" at least half the time - there should be terminals you want instead by that point. At which point I'm more inclined to place it closer to Navigator in power.
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Accatitippi

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Re: Bard is not weak
« Reply #34 on: November 18, 2017, 07:26:20 am »
+2

It's way better than Navigator. It's more comparable to Scavenger's power level.

Eh.....not sure I agree. Scavenger's midgame of trashing mostly Copper isn't great, but its late game of trashing Province to help buy more Provinces is pretty good.

You have argued that Bard is not weak because it's good at hitting $5 and giving money early. Sure, I agree. But Silver isn't that much worse than Bard at helping you hit $5, and it's non-terminal. (I'd like to see the math if you disagree.) Is opening Bard worth not opening the other $4s, and worth having an extra terminal in your deck? I would guess that the answer is "No" at least half the time. Is buying Bard after the opening worth it? Again, I'd guess "No" at least half the time - there should be terminals you want instead by that point. At which point I'm more inclined to place it closer to Navigator in power.


He's not talking about Salvager, he's talking about Mint.
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markusin

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Re: Bard is not weak
« Reply #35 on: November 18, 2017, 10:26:39 am »
+1

You don't get to pick though. That is a huge downside. It makes it tough to build and execute a plan. It might be worth picking up, but not over something more reliably good.

It doesn't make it tough to build and execute a plan. This is how you do it:

1. identify a key $5 you have to buy on turn 3 or 4
2. buy Bard
3. Bard lets you buy that key $5 on turn 3 or 4

4. Have Bard collide with your terminal 5 cost card you just bought in the next shuffle


I mean, sure, Bard can be good at getting 5 in turns 3/4, so it sometimes can be a good opening, a bit like Horse Traders (though HT is definitely better at reaching 5), which is a decent opener, but Horse Traders gives +buy which can be super important later. One thing to also note is that Silver is also actually a pretty good card at getting 5 and you will always have that.

But, yeah, if you have spare actions and/or want action payload Bard can be a good card, but that's pretty much the same situation where you would get Fortune Teller, Navigator, Harvest and a few other power cards... (granted Bard is probably better than those, or at least in the same level as Navigator)

It's way better than Navigator. It's more comparable to Scavenger's power level.

Eh.....not sure I agree. Scavenger's midgame of trashing mostly Copper isn't great, but its late game of trashing Province to help buy more Provinces is pretty good.

You have argued that Bard is not weak because it's good at hitting $5 and giving money early. Sure, I agree. But Silver isn't that much worse than Bard at helping you hit $5, and it's non-terminal. (I'd like to see the math if you disagree.) Is opening Bard worth not opening the other $4s, and worth having an extra terminal in your deck? I would guess that the answer is "No" at least half the time. Is buying Bard after the opening worth it? Again, I'd guess "No" at least half the time - there should be terminals you want instead by that point. At which point I'm more inclined to place it closer to Navigator in power.

I'm pretty sure Bard is stronger than Navigator. Many of the boons can be good throughout the game, and I'd be much more inclined to play a couple of Bards as payload each turn than Navigator. Some boons even help you cycle in the early game, like the Dungeon one.

Similar to tracker and Bard, there is also Sacred Grove. I see why that card was made to give symmetrical. Is is very potent with that +buy.

And yeah, you are thinking of Salvager, but #3 in Awaclus's list is the Salvager comparison (with Flame's Gift).

To give some more credit to Awaclus's argument, Nocturne introduced a bunch of Night cards that cost $5 (and Raider at $6).

Maybe the appropriate comparison to make for Bard is Monument. Are the boons that Bard gives going to overcome the +VP from Monument? Maybe, maybe not. Certainly in any game with a throne variant, you'll want Monument.
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FemurLemur

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Re: Bard is not weak
« Reply #36 on: November 18, 2017, 07:02:13 pm »
+3

Wandering Minstrel & Fortress & Bandit Camp (apparently the only three vanilla villages to meet in a set?)

I think you meant to say "vanillages."

I thought we were supposed to call them Vanilitters?
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smuggler

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Re: Bard is not weak
« Reply #37 on: November 19, 2017, 08:05:33 am »
0

and tribute got revised in v.2, because it was too random ...
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LastFootnote

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Re: Bard is not weak
« Reply #38 on: November 19, 2017, 10:31:55 am »
+2

and tribute got revised in v.2, because it was too random ...

Incorrect.
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Cave-o-sapien

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Re: Bard is not weak
« Reply #39 on: November 21, 2017, 07:24:26 pm »
+6

and tribute got revised in v.2, because it was too random ...

Incorrect.


http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16338.0

Quote from: Secret History of 2nd Edition Cards
Tribute: This isn't that good, but is better than most of these cards. It's not popular though. Hosing Nobles / Harem / Great Hall is not great. Some people feel like it's attacking them, since it can flip over good cards; I think it tends to help as much as hurt, but so what, I don't need people to feel bad over a non-attack. I'll say it for everyone: it wasn't the greatest card in the world; it was just Tribute.

Based on this, I conclude that removing Tribute was the punchline to a Tenacious D joke that was years in the making.
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William Howard Taft

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Re: Bard is not weak
« Reply #40 on: December 15, 2017, 01:51:08 pm »
+4

EDIT: All I'm really saying is that the randomness of the bonus is just that - random. It may or may not benefit you. And as such be careful when you are putting yourself in a position where you are relying on the bonus. (Which can be said about any Fate card.)

The big lesson I've internalized playing Nocturne is fate often pays off, which makes skipping Boons is a serious risk. I've played games where I skip Bard due to lack of reliability, only to allow my opponents to get the upper hand with early trashing, cycling, Gold, Will O' Wisps, free $4 cards, etc.

If you don't want to leave your deck up to fate then you don't have to, but random magic is going to occasionally help your opponents.
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markusin

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Re: Bard is not weak
« Reply #41 on: December 15, 2017, 10:25:40 pm »
+2

EDIT: All I'm really saying is that the randomness of the bonus is just that - random. It may or may not benefit you. And as such be careful when you are putting yourself in a position where you are relying on the bonus. (Which can be said about any Fate card.)

The big lesson I've internalized playing Nocturne is fate often pays off, which makes skipping Boons is a serious risk. I've played games where I skip Bard due to lack of reliability, only to allow my opponents to get the upper hand with early trashing, cycling, Gold, Will O' Wisps, free $4 cards, etc.

If you don't want to leave your deck up to fate then you don't have to, but random magic is going to occasionally help your opponents.

Sounds like Bard is the real Jack-of-all-trades.
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greybirdofprey

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Re: Bard is not weak
« Reply #42 on: December 16, 2017, 05:33:45 am »
+2

So...

Bard is like Baron?

They both share cost, type, first three letters, let you hit $5 early, and they can be bad.
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Awaclus

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Re: Bard is not weak
« Reply #43 on: December 16, 2017, 07:11:13 am »
0

So...

Bard is like Baron?

They both share cost, type, first three letters, let you hit $5 early, and they can be bad.

Pretty much. I think Bard is better as an opener, but Baron has the +buy which is important in the late game.
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Gazbag

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Re: Bard is not weak
« Reply #44 on: December 16, 2017, 02:36:53 pm »
+6

Bard is kinda like a friendly Swindler, you don't know exactly what it's going to do, but it's usually better than Silver.
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William Howard Taft

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Re: Bard is not weak
« Reply #45 on: December 19, 2017, 12:05:34 am »
+1

Tracker > Bard

Considering some of the Boons gain Gold, Silver, or Will-O-Wisps (basically Laboratories in the early game), Tracker's topdecking ability is way more valuable to me than $1 extra from Bard.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2017, 07:36:25 pm by William Howard Taft »
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Awaclus

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Re: Bard is not weak
« Reply #46 on: December 25, 2017, 06:11:35 pm »
0

Tracker > Bard

Considering some of the Boons gain Gold, Silver, or Will-O-Wisps (basically Laboratories in the early game), Tracker's topdecking ability is way more valuable to me than $1 extra from Bard.

Considering some of the cards in the game cost 5, the extra 1 from Bard is way more valuable than the topdecking.
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markusin

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Re: Bard is not weak
« Reply #47 on: December 25, 2017, 06:26:15 pm »
+1

Tracker > Bard

Considering some of the Boons gain Gold, Silver, or Will-O-Wisps (basically Laboratories in the early game), Tracker's topdecking ability is way more valuable to me than $1 extra from Bard.

Considering some of the cards in the game cost 5, the extra 1 from Bard is way more valuable than the topdecking.

I feel like Bard is somewhat effective in money strategies, making it better for hitting Province later in the game. Tracker is more of a utility card for engines that you pick up on a spare buy.
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Awaclus

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Re: Bard is not weak
« Reply #48 on: December 25, 2017, 06:32:39 pm »
0

Tracker > Bard

Considering some of the Boons gain Gold, Silver, or Will-O-Wisps (basically Laboratories in the early game), Tracker's topdecking ability is way more valuable to me than $1 extra from Bard.

Considering some of the cards in the game cost 5, the extra 1 from Bard is way more valuable than the topdecking.

I feel like Bard is somewhat effective in money strategies, making it better for hitting Province later in the game. Tracker is more of a utility card for engines that you pick up on a spare buy.

Bard/BM is probably okay, but I think its main utility is definitely that it's very good at hitting 5 after the first reshuffle. I agree with your characterization of Tracker.
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markusin

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Re: Bard is not weak
« Reply #49 on: December 25, 2017, 07:18:27 pm »
+1

Tracker > Bard

Considering some of the Boons gain Gold, Silver, or Will-O-Wisps (basically Laboratories in the early game), Tracker's topdecking ability is way more valuable to me than $1 extra from Bard.

Considering some of the cards in the game cost 5, the extra 1 from Bard is way more valuable than the topdecking.

I feel like Bard is somewhat effective in money strategies, making it better for hitting Province later in the game. Tracker is more of a utility card for engines that you pick up on a spare buy.

Bard/BM is probably okay, but I think its main utility is definitely that it's very good at hitting 5 after the first reshuffle. I agree with your characterization of Tracker.

The other thing to consider is that when it's not helping you hit $5 more than a terminal Silver, it is probably gaining you something. Reading your OP, five of the options are helping you hit $5-$6 (roughly a terminal Gold) more than a terminal silver would, and another four are gaining you something. The Wisp is particularly useful if you get it early enough. The remaining three include a trasher and a cartographer effect. The top deck from discard effect is the dud early on.

The problem with Bard is that it doesn't do any particular thing consistently as a terminal. There are terminals that always trash (e.g. Remake, Temple) , or always gain (e.g. Armory, Duplicate), or always sift/cycle (e.g. Smithy, Navigator). Bard is this small bag of tricks that makes me feel that it is best when your deck doesn't need to do anything particularly impressive, which is why I say Bard works nicely in money games. Those games are not as popular nowadays.

It also sucks if the $5 is terminal and keeps colliding with Bard.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2017, 07:20:06 pm by markusin »
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