Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: [1] 2 3  All

Author Topic: Bard is not weak  (Read 4614 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10662
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (´。• ω •。`)
  • Respect: +11150
    • View Profile
Bard is not weak
« on: November 17, 2017, 05:55:34 am »
+24

Here are the different effects you can get out of Bard:

1. +$2, you may discard a Treasure to gain a card costing up to $4.
You get to choose between an Ironworks-ish effect and a terminal Silver. That's super versatile and fairly strong.

2. +$3, +1 action
That's super good at hitting $5.

3. +$2, you may trash a card from your hand
That's Salvager. Salvager is a very powerful card.

4. +$3, +1 buy
That's strictly better than Horse Traders without the reaction part, which is already a decent card.

5. +$2, you may topdeck a card from your discard pile
That's strictly worse than Scavenger. Probably the worst Boon you can get, it sort of sucks if you get it without anything good in your discard pile, but even then it's no worse than having a Swindler hit an Estate or having a Militia hit two.

6. +$2, gain a Silver
That's Explorer. Considering that you only paid $4 for the card, that's very good tempo in the early game. You probably don't want it in the late game though.

7. +$2, +1 card at the end of your turn
That's great at hitting $5 and in general.

8. +$2, +1 card
That's a bit more awkward than the above, but still pretty good.

9. +$2, you may discard 3 cards to gain a Gold
If you actually want the Gold, that's super strong. If you don't, well, it's not.

10. +$2, Cartographer effect
That's a lot better than Navigator, which doesn't say much necessarily, but the difference is really big.

11. +$2, gain a Wisp
Gaining a Wisp in addition to the terminal Silver is pretty good for most decks.

12. +$2, Dungeon effect
Again, that's super good at hitting $5.


Half of these make it super likely that you hit $5 on turn 3 and/or turn 4, either allowing you to open Bard/Silver and have realistic hopes of hitting $5 twice, or Bard/trashing while still having a decent chance of hitting $5 at all. The other ones are still on-par with most other cards for hitting $5, and they give you stuff like trashing, free Wisps, and sometimes something of very low utility in addition. All in all, it doesn't do anything amazing, but it is more than sufficiently strong at what it does, which is early game economy.
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The Twitch channel where I stream DominionThe YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's albums for free

faust

  • Mountebank
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2037
  • Shuffle iT Username: faust
  • Respect: +2839
    • View Profile
Re: Bard is not weak
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2017, 06:37:03 am »
+2

Good points. That it's so good in the opening is probably the reason it doesn't cost $3.
Logged
Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

JThorne

  • Apprentice
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 298
  • Respect: +596
    • View Profile
Re: Bard is not weak
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2017, 09:34:13 am »
+1

Agreed.

Opening with some way to get $2 with a single card in order to hit $5 after the first shuffle is so critical most of the time that it's usually the right call to open Silver (even in a kingdom that absolutely hates treasure) if the only other option are actions that only generate $1. Much of the time I'll trash that Silver at my first opportunity; the rest of the time it sits there like an ugly yellow lump mocking my weakness.

If there are power-5s, there's probably a decent engine, and probably ample terminal space to afford Bard as a piece of the payload.

And on balance, there are far more effects in the game that somehow combine with actions compared with effects that combine with treasure. How many events, landmarks, gainers or simply other action cards are there that do something with an action card, but would look at a Silver and shrug?

So far, Nocturne cards are surprising me with their speed after playing a few games on-line. In turns, that is. The amount of time it takes to figure out what to do, on the other hand...
Logged

Jack Rudd

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1096
  • Shuffle iT Username: Jack Rudd
  • Respect: +1024
    • View Profile
Re: Bard is not weak
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2017, 09:47:30 am »
0

I'm surprised your #2 didn't just read "that's a Gold".
Logged
Centuries later, archaeologists discover the remains of your ancient civilization.

Evidence of thriving towns, Pottery, roads, and a centralized government amaze the startled scientists.

Finally, they come upon a stone tablet, which contains but one mysterious phrase!

'ISOTROPIC WILL RETURN!'

markusin

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3638
  • Shuffle iT Username: markusin
  • I also switched from Starcraft
  • Respect: +2200
    • View Profile
Re: Bard is not weak
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2017, 10:19:21 am »
+1

I'm surprised your #2 didn't just read "that's a Gold".

He didn't say it wasn't. Also relevant, you might even hit $6 with that, especially if you also opened Silver with Bard. Nice to get an early Altar or Artisan.
Logged

Seprix

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5451
  • Shuffle iT Username: Seprix
  • luck is a glitch
  • Respect: +3393
    • View Profile
    • The Border Village
Re: Bard is not weak
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2017, 10:35:41 am »
+5

Let's kill this hype train right now. Bard is weak. The fact that you don't get to choose the Boons is killer to Bard. It's fun to imagine hypothetical scenarios but the lack of control is a huge weakness. It's fine in the first shuffle but afterwards it gets horribly weak and usually there's something better to do (spoilers: The heavier the set leans towards Nocturne, the more this is not the case).
Logged
WOWIE I GUESS I HAVE TO DO EVERYTHING AROUND HERE
Join Dominion Discord

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10662
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (´。• ω •。`)
  • Respect: +11150
    • View Profile
Re: Bard is not weak
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2017, 11:07:37 am »
+1

Let's kill this hype train right now. Bard is weak. The fact that you don't get to choose the Boons is killer to Bard. It's fun to imagine hypothetical scenarios but the lack of control is a huge weakness. It's fine in the first shuffle but afterwards it gets horribly weak and usually there's something better to do (spoilers: The heavier the set leans towards Nocturne, the more this is not the case).

That's what early economy is. And no, it's not weak, it serves its purpose.
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The Twitch channel where I stream DominionThe YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's albums for free

trivialknot

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 588
  • Respect: +919
    • View Profile
Re: Bard is not weak
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2017, 11:19:21 am »
0

Let's kill this hype train right now. Bard is weak. The fact that you don't get to choose the Boons is killer to Bard. It's fun to imagine hypothetical scenarios but the lack of control is a huge weakness. It's fine in the first shuffle but afterwards it gets horribly weak and usually there's something better to do (spoilers: The heavier the set leans towards Nocturne, the more this is not the case).
I think Bard might be stronger in the context of Nocturne because Night cards don't take up terminal space, and sometimes you need those actions for Imp or Conclave.
Logged

Kirian

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 7058
  • Shuffle iT Username: Kirian
  • An Unbalanced Equation
  • Respect: +9287
    • View Profile
Re: Bard is not weak
« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2017, 11:38:39 am »
+10

Also, +1 to attack and damage for the entire party, and that's at level 1.
Logged
Kirian's Law of f.DS jokes:  Any sufficiently unexplained joke is indistinguishable from serious conversation.

Limetime

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1232
  • Shuffle iT Username: limetime
  • Respect: +1165
    • View Profile
Re: Bard is not weak
« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2017, 11:44:19 am »
+4

Bard is far from strong but it is really good at hitting 5. I hope you know how good hitting 5 is. I even buy silver sometimes to hit 5.
Logged

Chris is me

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2509
  • Shuffle iT Username: Chris is me
  • What do you want me to say?
  • Respect: +3118
    • View Profile
Re: Bard is not weak
« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2017, 12:27:55 pm »
+3

I think “not weak” is a reasonable statement. It’s nothing to write home about, and unreliable, but I guess if you both can spare the terminal space and really need to hit $5, it’s handy.

But like, it’s just weird to see this sort of arbitrary and one sided hype from Awaclus. I think you legitimately just sought out the blandest looking card in the set to make a hot take about and piss people off.
Logged
Twitch channel: http://www.twitch.tv/chrisisme2791

bug me on discord

they/them

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10662
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (´。• ω •。`)
  • Respect: +11150
    • View Profile
Re: Bard is not weak
« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2017, 12:34:53 pm »
+2

I think “not weak” is a reasonable statement. It’s nothing to write home about, and unreliable, but I guess if you both can spare the terminal space and really need to hit $5, it’s handy.

But like, it’s just weird to see this sort of arbitrary and one sided hype from Awaclus. I think you legitimately just sought out the blandest looking card in the set to make a hot take about and piss people off.

No, I legitimately wrote this a few minutes after I was done reading a post by JW where he said Bard was weak, which reminded me of the fact that Seprix and someone else also said that Bard was weak, so I had to fix that misconception.
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The Twitch channel where I stream DominionThe YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's albums for free

Cave-o-sapien

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 819
  • Respect: +1476
    • View Profile
Re: Bard is not weak
« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2017, 12:45:41 pm »
+1

The fact that you don't get to choose the Boons is killer to Bard.

If its effect was reliably good and predictable, it would probably cost more.
Logged

theblankman

  • Witch
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 453
  • Respect: +372
    • View Profile
Re: Bard is not weak
« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2017, 02:24:23 pm »
+2

Playing with boons in general during the preview week made me think of Tribute, a card whose effect is much harder to predict than most other actions (I had a similar reaction to hexes).  I found myself going for actions that gave boons only if the other actions were weak, or if a few of the boons were effects I really wanted that weren't available elsewhere in the kingdom.  That's similar to how I used to play Tribute before it was removed: only in specific situations or if there was just nothing better available.  Bard looks definitely better than Tribute based on price alone, so with that point of comparison, I think I'd call it situational rather than outright weak.
Logged
it's a shame that full-random is the de facto standard

DG

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3996
  • Respect: +2550
    • View Profile
Re: Bard is not weak
« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2017, 02:28:52 pm »
+2

The apparent problem with the bard is that he seems aimless. The bard does stuff, but is he doing stuff that will create your game winning deck?
Logged

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10662
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (´。• ω •。`)
  • Respect: +11150
    • View Profile
Re: Bard is not weak
« Reply #15 on: November 17, 2017, 02:37:32 pm »
+2

The apparent problem with the bard is that he seems aimless. The bard does stuff, but is he doing stuff that will create your game winning deck?

No, but he might ramp you up to the stuff that will create your game winning deck one shuffle faster than something else.
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The Twitch channel where I stream DominionThe YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's albums for free

Dingan

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1099
  • Shuffle iT Username: Dingan
  • Respect: +1592
    • View Profile
    • Website title
Re: Bard is not weak
« Reply #16 on: November 17, 2017, 03:02:50 pm »
0

The fact that you don't get to choose which of the effects is a big deal. Imagine how much weaker Steward would be if instead of saying "Choose one:..." it said "Do one of these three things, chosen at random:...". Bard is like that but with (up to) 12 things instead of 3.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2017, 03:04:40 pm by Dingan »
Logged

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10662
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (´。• ω •。`)
  • Respect: +11150
    • View Profile
Re: Bard is not weak
« Reply #17 on: November 17, 2017, 03:06:18 pm »
+2

The fact that you don't get to choose which of the effects is a big deal. Image how much weaker Steward would be if instead of saying "Choose one:..." it said "Do one of these three things, chosen at random:...". Bard is like that but with (up to) 12 things instead of 3.

Bard is not like that at all. You get the most important effect, which is +$2, every time, and almost all of the Boons are strictly beneficial in almost any situation.
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The Twitch channel where I stream DominionThe YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's albums for free

Cuzz

  • Witch
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 496
  • Shuffle iT Username: Cuzz
  • Respect: +799
    • View Profile
Re: Bard is not weak
« Reply #18 on: November 17, 2017, 05:39:49 pm »
0

This all makes sense for Bard, but then it seems kinda funny that it costs $4 while Tracker can cost $2.

I mostly just don't get why we have both Tracker and Bard in the set. Have there ever been two cards with such similar effect in the same expansion?
Logged

Donald X.

  • Dominion Designer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4891
  • Respect: +19919
    • View Profile
Re: Bard is not weak
« Reply #19 on: November 17, 2017, 05:45:17 pm »
+2

This all makes sense for Bard, but then it seems kinda funny that it costs $4 while Tracker can cost $2.

I mostly just don't get why we have both Tracker and Bard in the set. Have there ever been two cards with such similar effect in the same expansion?
Are you saying that the ability to put cards on your deck is really similar to nothing?
Logged

Cuzz

  • Witch
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 496
  • Shuffle iT Username: Cuzz
  • Respect: +799
    • View Profile
Re: Bard is not weak
« Reply #20 on: November 17, 2017, 05:51:02 pm »
0

This all makes sense for Bard, but then it seems kinda funny that it costs $4 while Tracker can cost $2.

I mostly just don't get why we have both Tracker and Bard in the set. Have there ever been two cards with such similar effect in the same expansion?
Are you saying that the ability to put cards on your deck is really similar to nothing?

I don't think I am, but maybe I should have said "on-play effect"
Logged

Seprix

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5451
  • Shuffle iT Username: Seprix
  • luck is a glitch
  • Respect: +3393
    • View Profile
    • The Border Village
Re: Bard is not weak
« Reply #21 on: November 17, 2017, 05:57:46 pm »
0

Let's kill this hype train right now. Bard is weak. The fact that you don't get to choose the Boons is killer to Bard. It's fun to imagine hypothetical scenarios but the lack of control is a huge weakness. It's fine in the first shuffle but afterwards it gets horribly weak and usually there's something better to do (spoilers: The heavier the set leans towards Nocturne, the more this is not the case).
I think Bard might be stronger in the context of Nocturne because Night cards don't take up terminal space, and sometimes you need those actions for Imp or Conclave.

I probably wrote it in a really confusing way, but I did say exactly this. Bard gets better the less of an engine there is, and man that's Nocturne more often than any other set.
Logged
WOWIE I GUESS I HAVE TO DO EVERYTHING AROUND HERE
Join Dominion Discord

Witherweaver

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6446
  • Shuffle iT Username: Witherweaver
  • Respect: +7799
    • View Profile
Re: Bard is not weak
« Reply #22 on: November 17, 2017, 06:07:37 pm »
+2

The apparent problem with the bard is that he seems aimless. The bard does stuff, but is he doing stuff that will create your game winning deck?

Spoony Bard!
Logged

JW

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 697
  • Shuffle iT Username: JW
  • Respect: +1237
    • View Profile
Re: Bard is not weak
« Reply #23 on: November 17, 2017, 06:21:53 pm »
+1

I probably wrote it in a really confusing way, but I did say exactly this. Bard gets better the less of an engine there is, and man that's Nocturne more often than any other set.

Heavy Nocturne games will probably see fewer engines than we're used because it has too few sources of +Actions, in part because Cursed Village has bad synergy with the Night cards and because Conclave leads to limited terminal space. Bard could have been that extra source of +Actions. I've got a suggestion about how it could be changed in that direction in a thread in the Variants forum. (edit: updated link)

My complaints about Bard (and the need for more +Actions) aside, Nocturne still seems like a great addition to full-random Dominion, because it adds a lot of interesting cards.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2017, 07:05:36 pm by JW »
Logged

Accatitippi

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1145
  • Shuffle iT Username: Accatitippi
  • Silver is underraided
  • Respect: +1764
    • View Profile
Re: Bard is not weak
« Reply #24 on: November 17, 2017, 06:22:53 pm »
+2

This all makes sense for Bard, but then it seems kinda funny that it costs $4 while Tracker can cost $2.

I mostly just don't get why we have both Tracker and Bard in the set. Have there ever been two cards with such similar effect in the same expansion?

It's actually pretty common for cards in the same set to come in different variants scaled by cost.
In rough order from most similar to least similar:
Moat & Smithy (& Council Room) (& Adventurer)
Festival & Woodcutter
Candlestick Maker & Baker
Scrying Pool & Alchemist (& Golem)
Royal Seal & Watchtower
Lighthouse & Fishing Village
Saboteur & Swindler
Diplomat & Shanty Town
Rogue & Dame Sylvia
Wandering Minstrel & Fortress & Bandit Camp (apparently the only three vanilla villages to meet in a set?)

Some of these are a big stretch, I know. Yet, I trust Donald and the guys to have blocked any cards that were too similar.
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3  All
 

Page created in 0.345 seconds with 20 queries.