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Author Topic: A more interesting Bard  (Read 5048 times)

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JW

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A more interesting Bard
« on: November 17, 2017, 05:11:57 am »
0

Bard
$4
Types: Action, Fate
+$2. Receive a Boon.

Bard seems both weak and boring. Bard is boring because there are two more interesting terminal actions that also give coin(s) and a Boon (Tracker and Sacred Grove). Making it cost $3 instead of $4 would increase its power, but it would still be boring.

tastor suggested allowing Bard to choose one of the top two boons to receive. The basic idea seems good, though you'd probably want to discard the Boon not chosen. However, this change might make Bard too strong. A weaker alternative would be: "Look at the top card of the Boon deck. You may discard it. Then receive a Boon."

A bigger change to Bard would be to make it a source of +2 Actions (thematic with Wandering Minstrel). Nocturne could use another source of +Actions, because Cursed Village has bad synergy with the Night cards, and Conclave is hard to get many extra +Actions out of. A non-terminal action that gained a Boon on each play would take too long to resolve, so maybe something like:

Revised Bard
$3
Types: Action, Fate
+$1. +2 Actions. If you do not have any other Bards in play (besides this), receive a Boon.

Another alternative is to make the card more like Crossroads as a limited +Actions effect (and in wording as well, as suggested by GendoIkari). Something like:

Alternate Bard
$3
Types: Action, Fate
+$1. Receive a Boon. If this is the first time you played a Bard this turn, +2 Actions.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2017, 11:23:47 am by JW »
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Awaclus

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Re: A more interesting Bard
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2017, 05:22:12 am »
+6

But it's not weak or uninteresting. Receiving a Boon is a really big deal on a $4 terminal Silver.
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Gazbag

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Re: A more interesting Bard
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2017, 03:28:34 pm »
+1

I agree with Awaclus here, Bard has seemed way better than Monument in my limited experience with it. It's certainly stronger than Navigator and Fortune Teller at least.

There are 8 Fate cards in the whole of Dominion, out of which only Tracker and Bard straight up give you a Boon on play (even then Tracker's topdecking changes a decent number of the boons). Boons are a pretty complex mechanic on their own so I really don't see what the problem is.
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trivialknot

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Re: A more interesting Bard
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2017, 04:02:02 pm »
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I would want to actually play with Bard more before trying to fix it.

However, earlier I was imagining some "fixes" to boons and hexes for people who don't like randomness.  You could, at the beginning of the game, select 3-4 Boons and Hexes to include in the game.  Instead of shuffling the boons/hexes, you cycle through them deterministically.  And you can always look through them to see what's coming up.  This would, incidentally, give Bard a slight buff.

I don't mind the randomness, but maybe some other people could give this a try.
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JW

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Re: A more interesting Bard
« Reply #4 on: November 17, 2017, 06:36:48 pm »
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I agree with Awaclus here, Bard has seemed way better than Monument in my limited experience with it. It's certainly stronger than Navigator and Fortune Teller at least.

There are 8 Fate cards in the whole of Dominion, out of which only Tracker and Bard straight up give you a Boon on play (even then Tracker's topdecking changes a decent number of the boons). Boons are a pretty complex mechanic on their own so I really don't see what the problem is.

Bard is a better opener than Monument, but I don't see Bard changing the way you approach a board in the same way that Monument sometimes does. I agree that it's stronger than Navigator and Fortune Teller, but both of those are weak.

Sacred Grove also gives a Boon on play. Bard is boring because there are two more interesting terminal actions (Tracker, Sacred Grove) that also give coin(s) and a Boon.
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LibraryAdventurer

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Re: A more interesting Bard
« Reply #5 on: November 17, 2017, 07:05:49 pm »
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There's the same amount of +actions in Nocturne as in most expansions. The usual amount of villages in an expansion is 2.5 (.5 = sometimes but not always a village). We have Blessed Village, Cursed Village, and Conclave. That's 2.5. This just isn't as much of an engine-centric expansion as the last couple were.

Gazbag

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Re: A more interesting Bard
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2017, 08:23:29 pm »
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I agree with Awaclus here, Bard has seemed way better than Monument in my limited experience with it. It's certainly stronger than Navigator and Fortune Teller at least.

There are 8 Fate cards in the whole of Dominion, out of which only Tracker and Bard straight up give you a Boon on play (even then Tracker's topdecking changes a decent number of the boons). Boons are a pretty complex mechanic on their own so I really don't see what the problem is.

Bard is a better opener than Monument, but I don't see Bard changing the way you approach a board in the same way that Monument sometimes does. I agree that it's stronger than Navigator and Fortune Teller, but both of those are weak.

Sacred Grove also gives a Boon on play. Bard is boring because there are two more interesting terminal actions (Tracker, Sacred Grove) that also give coin(s) and a Boon.

I think being a good opening buy is more significant than the rare cases when Monument vp make much of a difference.

Sacred Grove gives a boon to you and an opponent on play, which is very significant. It also gives +buy and costs $5 meaning it has a different purpose to Bard. Bard is a simple, elegant and well balanced design, this is a good thing; not every card has to be Governor.
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LastFootnote

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Re: A more interesting Bard
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2017, 09:09:10 pm »
+2

There's the same amount of +actions in Nocturne as in most expansions. The usual amount of villages in an expansion is 2.5 (.5 = sometimes but not always a village). We have Blessed Village, Cursed Village, and Conclave. That's 2.5. This just isn't as much of an engine-centric expansion as the last couple were.

And Ghost Town. And—to a much lesser extent—Ghost.
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Re: A more interesting Bard
« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2017, 09:46:45 pm »
+1

Boons as a whole would be cooler if the deck order was face up.
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JW

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Re: A more interesting Bard
« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2017, 01:37:11 am »
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There's the same amount of +actions in Nocturne as in most expansions. The usual amount of villages in an expansion is 2.5 (.5 = sometimes but not always a village). We have Blessed Village, Cursed Village, and Conclave. That's 2.5. This just isn't as much of an engine-centric expansion as the last couple were.

And Ghost Town. And—to a much lesser extent—Ghost.

With 33 Kingdom cards, it makes sense that Nocturne would have more Villages than a typical 25-26 card set. And I don’t think it’s an accident that Dark Ages, Adventures, and Empires exceeded the previous ratio of one village per 8-9 cards. It’s nice to have a variety of kingdoms, but having extra actions tends to make kingdoms more interesting.
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enfynet

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Re: A more interesting Bard
« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2017, 01:59:54 am »
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Boons as a whole would be cooler if the deck order was face up.
I'm probably going to do that the first few times I play anyways, same with Hexes as well. At least until I know what to expect when playing.

Online is a different story. And I haven't played online in almost 2 years, so I'm the wrong person to ask.
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ThetaSigma12

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Re: A more interesting Bard
« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2017, 12:30:26 pm »
+1

needed extra source of +Actions for Nocturne.

Really? There are 12 terminals in Nocturne, and Werewolf and the Fate cards are soft terminals. There are 2 Villages, Conclave, and Ghost Town. In the 2E Base Set there are 13 terminals and only 2 Villages and Throne Room. I think Nocturne is fine for +Actions.

EDIT: I see LA came to the same conclusion above.
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Asper

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Re: A more interesting Bard
« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2017, 12:57:48 pm »
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Yeah, you really don't need that many villages in a set that has so many cards which can't ever be drawn dead. I can't say that I like Bard too much, or Boons and Hexes for that matter, but I don't think it's weak or needs to be a Village.
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GendoIkari

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Re: A more interesting Bard
« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2017, 01:21:48 pm »
+2

Why not stick with the Crossroads wording of "if this is the first time you played a Bard this turn"? It makes it weaker with Throne Rooms and Band of Misfits, but is the same otherwise, and consistent with existing cards.
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Re: A more interesting Bard
« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2017, 08:40:33 pm »
+7

Just let Bard be boring.  Every set needs some "simple" cards.
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Re: A more interesting Bard
« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2017, 09:37:50 pm »
+1

We were perhaps spoiled by preview cards like Fool which made our expectations for the Fate cards higher. But really, Fool is an example of more complexity not necessarily making a better card.

And really, Bard is the only card that plays the Boons completely straight. Idol is played in the Buy phase where certain Boons are possibly useless. Blessed Village has this odd timing. Fool is wonky with its Boons. Tracker "cheats" a bit by topdecking the cards gained from Boons, making some of them stronger than their base form but not others. Sacred Trial gives your opponent Boons, which are sometimes better than then deal you are getting by having to spend an action for it (like the card draw Boons).

Druid is pretty simple as well, but what it does varies each game. Bard is fine as the simplest Fate card that helps give a tough evaluation of the strength of a random Boon. Who's to say it's not Tracker or Blessed Village that are the redundant Fate cards?
« Last Edit: November 22, 2017, 09:39:11 pm by markusin »
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