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Author Topic: Worst kingdom deck  (Read 10341 times)

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Nimmy

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Worst kingdom deck
« on: June 25, 2011, 05:02:10 am »
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An easy question. Playing solo and trying to buy all provinces, what is the worst kingdom deck ? All 10 cards must be action cards. As it is quite clear some of the action-attack cards are not that good if you don't have an opponent, try to minimize the number of attack cards
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DG

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Re: Worst kingdom deck
« Reply #1 on: June 25, 2011, 07:37:43 am »
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I think has already been considered on boardgamegeek with a solution similar to

Hamlet
Village
Worker's village
Walled village
Fishing village
Throne
King's court
Quarry
Workshop
University
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Personman

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Re: Worst kingdom deck
« Reply #2 on: June 25, 2011, 08:04:55 am »
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Why limit it to Actions? I get why you'd exclude Victory cards, since they'd be auto-includes, but why not allow Treasures?

Anyway, I think you can do just about perfect (ie, it's never right to buy anything but treasure) with the Action-only rule:

For now, let's assume you don't get perfect shuffles. That is, the question is "What is the spread you would least like to see come up in a competition to buy all the provinces in solitaire on isotropic".

Cards That Are Strictly Worse Than Silver
1. Great Hall
2. Village
3. Walled Village
4. Feast
5. City (It would be an insane waste of time to empty a pile, much less 2, when Big Money can get you there as fast as it can and no one is helping)
6. University
7. Monument
8. Throne Room
Cards That Probably Help You Less Than Money
9. Scout
10. Outpost

I'm not sure which of Scout and Pearl Diver is worse. Scout has the potential to make a much bigger impact, but Pearl Diver has the issue that if you draw $2, you're going to buy it, because it adds *some* value, unlike all your other options. Hard call.

If instead you do get perfect shuffles, it's actually possible to prove your answer, though I think it's more work than I want to do. Outpost definitely gets replaced with Pearl Diver. What I don't know is whether Scout gets replaced by Workshop. I'm just not sure whether having extra silver is better than skipping four victory cards all the time.

You could certainly make this worse by replacing a few cards with Thief and Pirate Ship, which are totally useless, but I wanted to stick to the no-attacks rule.

If you allow Treasures, I think you can be absolutely 100% certain that no one should ever buy anything other than Silver, Gold, and Province by making the last 2 cards Quarry and Harem.


@DG -- there are a lot of things wrong with that spread. First, it violates the actions-only rule, but more importantly, it gives you all these buys, and has KC in it. TR is useless because you can't net cards (or money, TR->Monument is no better than 2x Silver) with it, but with KC you can, and since you have buys, chaining them might actually be a useful thing. Hamlet is also bad as it costs 2. And FISHING VILLAGE!? With KC around!? Waaaaaay too good.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2011, 08:09:17 am by Personman »
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DG

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Re: Worst kingdom deck
« Reply #3 on: June 25, 2011, 09:00:49 am »
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Quote
FISHING VILLAGE!? With KC around!? Waaaaaay too good.
Fishing village and king's court gives you 3 to spend for two turns when drawn together. Gold and silver give you 5 to spend immediately and also return to the discard pile so get played more often. Gold and silver are better.
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Glooble

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Re: Worst kingdom deck
« Reply #4 on: June 25, 2011, 09:20:54 am »
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I have to see if I can find the game where I bought two provinces with nothing but KC'd Fishing Villages.
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Deadlock39

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Re: Worst kingdom deck
« Reply #5 on: June 25, 2011, 10:20:09 am »
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Cards That Are Strictly Worse Than Silver
1. Great Hall
2. Village
3. Walled Village
4. Feast
5. City (It would be an insane waste of time to empty a pile, much less 2, when Big Money can get you there as fast as it can and no one is helping)
6. University
7. Monument
8. Throne Room
Cards That Probably Help You Less Than Money
9. Scout
10. Outpost

I think including City with University is probably too good.  In this set, with the 8 card stack of Great Halls too, fully activating cities doesn't take all that long. 

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201106/25/game-20110625-070839-f4bc46dc.html

In my first solitare attempt, (Okay, second. The first time I thought Outpost would actually give me free turns.)  I managed to empty the City stack on turn 14, and then the Great Halls, at the beginning of turn 16, activating the Cities before playing any of them.  I have no clue what the right strategy is at that point, but I picked up two golds and started gaining Throne Rooms with my Universities, and ran the Provinces out in 22 turns.   I don't know how long it takes Big Money to get all 8 provinces, but if it gets 4 in 17 turns, the minimum turns would be 21, and I would assume it is a fair amount higher.

I think just swapping something like Hamlet out for the Cities (or University) would make this set worse than big money. 

nemryn

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Re: Worst kingdom deck
« Reply #6 on: June 25, 2011, 01:22:53 pm »
+1

Cards That Are Strictly Worse Than Silver
None of those are strictly worse than Silver, just the regular kind of worse. And some of them aren't even that.
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def

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Re: Worst kingdom deck
« Reply #7 on: June 25, 2011, 01:54:55 pm »
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What about something like

Chancellor
Woodcutter
Feast
Mine
Conspirator
Bridge
Scout
Navigator
Outpost
Monument
Peddler

11 cards, so maybe take Mine away as the only trasher and the only use for Feast, maybe take Peddler to avoid Conspirator chains (I don't think Scout Scout Conspirator would be useful). Or exclude Conspirator and Peddler and put some useless cantrips in.

So, apart from some bonus effects for cycling (Chancellor and Navigator), essentially there are terminal silvers.
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Personman

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Re: Worst kingdom deck
« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2011, 03:19:50 pm »
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Quote from: Deadlock39 link=topic=179.msg1851#msg1851
I think including City with University is probably too good.  In this set, with the 8 card stack of Great Halls too, fully activating cities doesn't take all that long.

Ooh, good point. Prolly just replace City with Pearl Diver is the right answer.

Cards That Are Strictly Worse Than Silver
None of those are strictly worse than Silver, just the regular kind of worse. And some of them aren't even that.

No, they really are -- except for the University/City combo, which I missed, buying cards on that list *can't* be better than buying a silver. They all cost at least as much and given the other cards available do strictly less. (In fact, except for Feast and University which can get Scout, Pearl Diver, and Outpost, they all do strictly nothing).

Perhaps you thought I meant in the general case, but that would be pretty silly! I'm not actually sure there are any Dominion cards that are strictly worse than other ones, given the existence of Forge.

Quote
FISHING VILLAGE!? With KC around!? Waaaaaay too good.
Fishing village and king's court gives you 3 to spend for two turns when drawn together. Gold and silver give you 5 to spend immediately and also return to the discard pile so get played more often. Gold and silver are better.

Not right before your last shuffle. Of course, in a real game, you would never take the risk, but in a perfect shuffle game it totally might be the right thing to do.

What about something like

Chancellor
Woodcutter
Feast
Mine
Conspirator
Bridge
Scout
Navigator
Outpost
Monument
Peddler

11 cards, so maybe take Mine away as the only trasher and the only use for Feast, maybe take Peddler to avoid Conspirator chains (I don't think Scout Scout Conspirator would be useful). Or exclude Conspirator and Peddler and put some useless cantrips in.

So, apart from some bonus effects for cycling (Chancellor and Navigator), essentially there are terminal silvers.


Again, it partly depends on whether we get perfect shuffles or not, but if we do, Bridge and Chancellor are insane. Woodcutter and Navigator are pretty good too.

And even if we don't get perfect shuffles, all of those cards are strictly *better* than silver, at least when you only have one, so you will always buy at least one of them over silver, and probably more than one as the game goes on. Bridge especially is a Gold, not a Silver, when you're buying two Provinces with it.
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nemryn

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Re: Worst kingdom deck
« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2011, 04:23:38 pm »
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Perhaps you thought I meant in the general case, but that would be pretty silly! I'm not actually sure there are any Dominion cards that are strictly worse than other ones, given the existence of Forge.
You must be using a different definition of 'strictly worse' than I am. As I understand it, it can only apply to the general case; if you have to specify a context, then it's not strictly worse.

But, this is a semantic quibble, not a substantive argument; I agree that buying any of those would be worse than buying Silver on that board.
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def

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Re: Worst kingdom deck
« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2011, 04:34:07 pm »
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Maybe we should agree on some basic "rules". I didn't assume perfect shuffles, otherwise it's clear that a Chancellor shouldn't be there. Given perfect play, a set of 10 kingdom cards can't be worse than a set without any kingdom cards. The question is, how small can the difference these kingdom cards make be? And, that's what we are debating about, a) assuming perfect draw luck or b) in a normal game, the average number of turns to get all provinces.
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Amaranth

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Re: Worst kingdom deck
« Reply #11 on: June 26, 2011, 07:35:56 pm »
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And even if we don't get perfect shuffles, all of those cards are strictly *better* than silver, at least when you only have one, so you will always buy at least one of them over silver, and probably more than one as the game goes on. Bridge especially is a Gold, not a Silver, when you're buying two Provinces with it.
I don't think it's possible to buy two Provinces in one turn in this setup, though Bridge would be decent at getting you two Golds in one turn.
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drg

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Re: Worst kingdom deck
« Reply #12 on: June 26, 2011, 08:28:47 pm »
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How about:
City
Village
Walled village
Farming village
Throne room
King's court
Workshop
Feast
Great hall
Quarry (or uni, maybe ironworks, but that gives you free silvers and acts as a copper, so is probably worth buying)  Emptying 2 piles to get the cities going with uni's would not make the game faster than buying silvers and golds.
Obviously a useless attack card, like saboteur, could be substituted as well.  This way there is no $2 card and no buys until you get lvl 3 cities.

This way there are no buys unless you power the cities, and if you put in uni and try to empty 2 piles, you aren't exacly helping yourself get to provinces quickly, and all those cards you can play with your cities don't really help.
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DG

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Re: Worst kingdom deck
« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2011, 10:29:23 pm »
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Set up Geronimo's simulator to get workshops, cities, feasts, thrones, and villages and it will empty the province pile in 19 turns.
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drg

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Re: Worst kingdom deck
« Reply #14 on: June 27, 2011, 12:45:47 pm »
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That has to be slower than just buying money.
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Worst kingdom deck
« Reply #15 on: June 27, 2011, 01:10:41 pm »
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But 'just buying money' baselines 17 turns to 4 provinces... if it's 8 in 19, that must be faster.

rinkworks

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Re: Worst kingdom deck
« Reply #16 on: June 27, 2011, 01:31:27 pm »
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How can that be?  None of those action cards actually increase your buying power.  (Unless you empty out two supply piles, which, as was already stated, has to be slower than Big Money and yields only $1 per City anyway.)

...Actually, I suppose if you used KC on a Village, you could increase your hand size by one.  The extra card might be a treasure card, so that would increase your buying power a little.  But that means you passed up an opportunity to buy a Gold in favor of a KC, which is usually going to be a dead card.  So that's another poor way to go.

I just don't see how it's mathematically possible for that kingdom to beat Big Money.
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DG

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Re: Worst kingdom deck
« Reply #17 on: June 27, 2011, 02:18:13 pm »
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Quote
None of those action cards actually increase your buying power.  (Unless you empty out two supply piles, which, as was already stated, has to be slower than Big Money and yields only $1 per City anyway.)

Playing ten cities for two cards, +1$, +1 buy, with nine thrones, will provide +19$ and draw a massive deck of cards each turn. If you have remaining workshop actions you can gain extra silver and probably spend it in the same round. You'll essentially buy out all the provinces in three or four turns once the cities hit. The Geronimo bot can work that out, even if doesn't make the right decisions on the throne rooms or find any short cuts to deplete piles.

The 19 turns isn't actually correct but the Geronimo simulator still says this is faster than money (even when it's not getting the decisions right).
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Geronimoo

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Re: Worst kingdom deck
« Reply #18 on: June 27, 2011, 02:20:34 pm »
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The fastest strategy with just money to 8 Provinces is 25,7 turns. It starts to buy Provinces when it has at least 3 Golds.

Paste this in my Simulator (VXML-button)
<player name="BM - Big Money Ultimate">
   <buy name="Province">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Gold"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Gold"/>
   <buy name="Silver"/>
</player>

and let it play against this dummy player:

<player name="Dummy">
</player>

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Geronimoo

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Re: Worst kingdom deck
« Reply #19 on: June 27, 2011, 02:22:12 pm »
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Quote
None of those action cards actually increase your buying power.  (Unless you empty out two supply piles, which, as was already stated, has to be slower than Big Money and yields only $1 per City anyway.)

Playing ten cities for two cards, +1$, +1 buy, with nine thrones, will provide +19$ and draw a massive deck of cards each turn. If you have remaining workshop actions you can gain extra silver and probably spend it in the same round. You'll essentially buy out all the provinces in three or four turns once the cities hit. The Geronimo bot can work that out, even if doesn't make the right decisions on the throne rooms or find any short cuts to deplete piles.

The 19 turns isn't actually correct but the Geronimo simulator still says this is faster than money (even when it's not getting the decisions right).

Could you post the buy rules of the bot, DG?
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dan11295

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Re: Worst kingdom deck
« Reply #20 on: June 27, 2011, 04:38:17 pm »
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Well, something to this effect was mentioned over at the BGG forums a while back:

King's Court
Thief
Loan
Contraband
Harem
Talisman
Stash
Quarry
Bank
Venture
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WanderingWinder

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Re: Worst kingdom deck
« Reply #21 on: June 27, 2011, 04:46:41 pm »
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Venture/Bank? Venture AT ALL? Harem? Definitely you can do worse.

Personman

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Re: Worst kingdom deck
« Reply #22 on: June 27, 2011, 04:48:30 pm »
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Well, something to this effect was mentioned over at the BGG forums a while back:

King's Court
Thief
Loan
Contraband
Harem
Talisman
Stash
Quarry
Bank
Venture

Would you like to make some sort of wager on whether I can describe a set of buy-rules that beats big money at least 60% of the time with this spread? Say, infinity dollars?

Stash alone should do the trick, but Venture too...!
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guided

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Re: Worst kingdom deck
« Reply #23 on: June 27, 2011, 04:50:51 pm »
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Talisman and Quarry are pretty worthless on that board; I'll give you that ;D
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chwhite

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Re: Worst kingdom deck
« Reply #24 on: June 27, 2011, 04:56:03 pm »
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Well, assuming that a) you're just trying to run out the Provinces, and b) no Attack or Reaction cards, I think this is as bad as I can think of:

Village
Walled Village
Throne Room
Stash
Great Hall
Possession
Duke
Gardens
Vineyards
Harem

No buys, no trashing, no way to get more than 5 cards in hand, no treasure better than Silver.  Duke/Gardens/Vineyards/Possession does feel a bit like cheating, though.  I guess you could buy Stash with 5, big whoop.

EDIT: Actually, hm, maybe you could subsitute Feast for Stash.  That should make the set 100% useless when it comes to beating Big Money to the Provinces.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2011, 05:06:35 pm by chwhite »
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