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Author Topic: Trashing several cards with Monastery  (Read 1717 times)

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Donald X.

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Re: Trashing several cards with Monastery
« Reply #25 on: December 02, 2017, 04:46:57 pm »
+1

It seems like this situation is similar to discarding down to X, where you should technically discard one at a time, (so Tunnel/Watchtower), but I know that the online Militia normally has you discard multiple cards at once.

So how does the game handle Militia with Tunnel/Watchtower? For the sake of consistency, however it handles that might also be generally how it should handle Monastery.
It would be vice-versa - for the sake of consistency, Militia / Tunnel could be changed to match this. Monastery / Overgrown Estate is an interaction that makes us need Monastery to work some way that handles it; I don't think Militia / Tunnel has such an case, which is why it hasn't been an issue. It hypothetically could though.

I thought Militia+Tunnel+Watchtower was the case where it mattered.  You have to be able to discard Tunnel for Gold, reveal Watchtower on the Gold, then still be able to discard that Watchtower. So it needs to accommodate one-at-a-time discarding.

Note that I don't really play online, so I really have no idea how that interaction gets handled currently. Maybe it's not being handled, in which case I agree: discard-down-to should probably end up matching whatever gets done here.

Oh I see. I don't know what the online version does there either, but yes. One at a time for both, except, maybe the interface can be friendlier for typical no-such-weirdness cases.
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markus

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Re: Trashing several cards with Monastery
« Reply #26 on: December 03, 2017, 04:08:32 am »
0

Should the log also show all discarded cards of my opponent then? I thought that it was fine to discard down to 3 and only show one card (new top of discard pile) to my opponent, if I don't want to trigger reactions.
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chipperMDW

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Re: Trashing several cards with Monastery
« Reply #27 on: December 03, 2017, 07:29:31 pm »
+1

Should the log also show all discarded cards of my opponent then? I thought that it was fine to discard down to 3 and only show one card (new top of discard pile) to my opponent, if I don't want to trigger reactions.

From a post in a different thread (the bolding is mine (Mine is in Prosperity)):
I'd rather not have a special ruling and with no special ruling and nothing in the rulebooks, "discard down to 3" sounds to me like I keep discarding until I have 3 (or fewer dammit). However you don't need to reveal the cards below the top one because somehow the rulebook says this.

I've taken that ruling to mean you actually get to discard the cards in batches of 1X where X is the maximum you could (must) still discard. So you can dump them all at once and reveal only the top one if there's nothing tricky going on. But you could also do it in batches of 1 and show them everything if you wanted to. Or something.

(Or else you're allowed to hide your discard pile while you discard things one by one, but I think it was ruled elsewhere that letting you hide your piles from your opponent would be a bad idea.)

When applied to Monastery, the grouping doesn't matter for information purposes (everyone gets to see all the cards that end up in the trash no matter how you do it), but Catacombs and other problem cards must be the last in a batch. So, I think, once you've included a Catacombs in the cards you've selected to trash with Monastery, instead of letting you add more cards to the selection, it should somehow say, "Hey, before you select more cards, let's go ahead and submit this batch now so we can handle tricky stuff. It's ok; you'll get to come back and pick the rest in a sec." Of course, it should still let you remove cards from the selection (EDIT: actually, I guess it doesn't let you remove things now, but just lets you undo the entire selection). And if you remove the Catacombs, it should stop telling you you can't select more right now. And once you do submit a batch with a Catacombs, the Catacombs should always be implicitly processed last because clearly the player didn't select any new cards after that one.

The thing I don't like about Donald's suggestion of "select a bunch and then if something triggers, throw out all the other choices" is that someone who doesn't care too much about all of this is going to try to trash a Catacombs and some Coppers and then they'll be like, "Man, this game is broken; I told it to trash these Coppers and here they still are." It's best not to even let the player think they can tell the game to do something if that thing is not going to end up working.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2017, 07:39:37 pm by chipperMDW »
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markus

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Re: Trashing several cards with Monastery
« Reply #28 on: December 04, 2017, 02:15:26 am »
+2

For the online implementation, I would just go with single trashing as with Remake, showing the remaining maximum number of cards to be trashed.
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Donald X.

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Re: Trashing several cards with Monastery
« Reply #29 on: December 04, 2017, 03:28:26 am »
0

I've taken that ruling to mean you actually get to discard the cards in batches of 1X where X is the maximum you could (must) still discard. So you can dump them all at once and reveal only the top one if there's nothing tricky going on. But you could also do it in batches of 1 and show them everything if you wanted to. Or something.
But we don't have that rulebook anymore, we have a new one. What does it say? He said without checking.

The thing I don't like about Donald's suggestion of "select a bunch and then if something triggers, throw out all the other choices" is that someone who doesn't care too much about all of this is going to try to trash a Catacombs and some Coppers and then they'll be like, "Man, this game is broken; I told it to trash these Coppers and here they still are." It's best not to even let the player think they can tell the game to do something if that thing is not going to end up working.
You could leave them marked.
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Jeebus

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Re: Trashing several cards with Monastery
« Reply #30 on: December 04, 2017, 10:42:12 am »
+1

But we don't have that rulebook anymore, we have a new one. What does it say? He said without checking.

It uses the same wording.

EDIT: I just checked, and discarding Tunnel and Watchtower from Militia doesn't let you topdeck (or trash) the Gold.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2017, 10:51:23 am by Jeebus »
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Jeebus

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Re: Trashing several cards with Monastery
« Reply #31 on: December 04, 2017, 10:47:20 am »
+1

Donald's suggestion is what I already wrote: "With method #2, you would have to ask the user which to trigger first, and then it could be that you have to cancel the trashing of an already-selected card." I meant to imply that this would be confusing. Leaving it marked afterwards is a good idea though, and probably mitigates that confusion.

But you still have the problem of the interface behaving in the same way as Chapel, which is confusing. You also have the problem of expecting it to behave differently if you know how the card works IRL, which could lead to mistakes until you learn the UI. And as I said, what about Market Square for instance? Any of the cards could trigger that. Stef would have to be very careful about how to handle cards that trigger on-trash. Implementing it like Remake is a lot easer, since all triggers would happen naturally.

And as I said from the very beginning, trashing more than a couple of cards is not going to be very common, so it hardly seems worth it.
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