Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: 1 ... 5 6 [7] 8  All

Author Topic: Nocturne Initial Impressions  (Read 7667 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

jonaskoelker

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 201
  • Grand Market = cantrip Woodcutter
  • Respect: +252
    • View Profile
Re: Nocturne Initial Impressions
« Reply #150 on: November 25, 2017, 02:20:20 pm »
+1

(However, the phrase "I'm set against that" means firm opposition, as far as I'm aware. Maybe someone has that at the back of their mind.)
Logged

dghunter79

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 241
  • Respect: +271
    • View Profile
Re: Nocturne Initial Impressions
« Reply #151 on: November 25, 2017, 05:42:01 pm »
+3

(However, the phrase "I'm set against that" means firm opposition, as far as I'm aware. Maybe someone has that at the back of their mind.)

https://www.thespruce.com/which-word-has-the-most-definitions-4077796

jonaskoelker

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 201
  • Grand Market = cantrip Woodcutter
  • Respect: +252
    • View Profile
Re: Nocturne Initial Impressions
« Reply #152 on: November 25, 2017, 06:30:05 pm »
0

Speculation: on non-engine boards that's aren't just terminal draw big money, Conclave is a village worth buying.

Certainly a {Mountebank, Mountebank, Conclave, Copper, Curse} hand beats {Mountebank, Mountebank, Silver, Copper, Curse}, and likewise with Goons, Sea Hag and Marauder as your terminal payload. Obviously Silver is better if you draw Conclave dead, but it probably still plays nicely with Witch and Young Witch. I'm not so sure about Cultist, but hey, maybe it helps you play your ruins and make them merely very weak rather than dead cards. Cultist points towards getting Conclave later than those other payload terminals, maybe.

Like most disappearing villages it plays well with draw-to-x; it's probably particularly good with Jack of all Trades: the money bonus from Conclave is highly appreciated, drawing a second copy of your draw-to-x is just fine, your draw-to-x doesn't draw Conclave dead, and you won't ever draw an unplayable third copy of your draw-to-x if you're playing DoubleJack. It's probably fine with Library too, but Library isn't exactly a power card.
Logged

markusin

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3323
  • Shuffle iT Username: markusin
  • I also switched from Starcraft
  • Respect: +1919
    • View Profile
Re: Nocturne Initial Impressions
« Reply #153 on: November 25, 2017, 07:09:50 pm »
0

The first couple of Conclaves are very hard to refuse.
Logged

theory

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3559
  • Respect: +5820
    • View Profile
    • Dominion Strategy
Re: Nocturne Initial Impressions
« Reply #154 on: November 26, 2017, 09:39:20 pm »
0

tristan 4.0 is banned.

I'm like 99% sure you're joking, but, you are joking, right? That would be the quickest witch hunt ever if not.

More on topic: I don't know that I think Josh was being condescending until after he was first accused of being condescending, although I should admit I haven't read those other two threads Trivialknot linked to. I agree with Seprix though, deescalation would be good, because this has been a very enjoyable thread so far, and it'd be cool to keep it like that
I wasn't joking.  And I was confident in my analysis, which I would be happy to share with you over PM.
Logged

ipofanes

  • Jester
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 983
  • Respect: +410
    • View Profile
Re: Nocturne Initial Impressions
« Reply #155 on: November 28, 2017, 03:35:54 am »
0

I agree that Tragic Hero seems pretty weak. Compare it to Margrave for instance. I you want it for building an engine, it will pretty soon trash itself for a Treasure you often don't want. In a big money terminal deck, where you could use the Treasure, it never trashes itself.

Sometimes there's no other +card. Tragic Hero is, as pointed out, very powerful with Necromancer ... but as Trash is commons, this is more an argument against TH, as I would expect everyone piling up on Necromancers and waiting to everyone else to make their first move with TH. A bit like activating Cities.
Logged

markusin

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3323
  • Shuffle iT Username: markusin
  • I also switched from Starcraft
  • Respect: +1919
    • View Profile
Re: Nocturne Initial Impressions
« Reply #156 on: November 28, 2017, 08:04:10 am »
0

I agree that Tragic Hero seems pretty weak. Compare it to Margrave for instance. I you want it for building an engine, it will pretty soon trash itself for a Treasure you often don't want. In a big money terminal deck, where you could use the Treasure, it never trashes itself.

Sometimes there's no other +card. Tragic Hero is, as pointed out, very powerful with Necromancer ... but as Trash is commons, this is more an argument against TH, as I would expect everyone piling up on Necromancers and waiting to everyone else to make their first move with TH. A bit like activating Cities.

Well, Necromancer can only play the same Tragic Hero in the trash once per turn. Only the person who plays Tragic Hero from hand could play it twice in a turn (once from hand, once from the trash).
Logged

jonaskoelker

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 201
  • Grand Market = cantrip Woodcutter
  • Respect: +252
    • View Profile
Re: Nocturne Initial Impressions
« Reply #157 on: November 28, 2017, 03:14:15 pm »
0

Necromancer can only play the same Tragic Hero in the trash once per turn.
If you Necro the TH and it trashes itself, isn't it turned face up?
Logged

enfynet

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1638
  • Respect: +1082
    • View Profile
    • JD's Custom Clubs
Re: Nocturne Initial Impressions
« Reply #158 on: November 28, 2017, 03:19:04 pm »
+2

I thought it would fail to trash itself as it cannot find itself in play.
Logged
"I have no special talents. I am only passionately curious."

markusin

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3323
  • Shuffle iT Username: markusin
  • I also switched from Starcraft
  • Respect: +1919
    • View Profile
Re: Nocturne Initial Impressions
« Reply #159 on: November 28, 2017, 03:31:17 pm »
+2

I thought it would fail to trash itself as it cannot find itself in play.

Yeah Necromancer never moves the cards into play, and they fail to trash themselves. For example, you can't get Pixie's Boons when playing it with Necromancer. Tragic Hero still gives you the treasure because the treasure gain is not conditional on Tragic Hero trashing itself. Same thing with Pillage and Embargo.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2017, 03:34:45 pm by markusin »
Logged

LastFootnote

  • Board Moderator
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6727
  • Shuffle iT Username: LastFootnote
  • Respect: +9077
    • View Profile
Re: Nocturne Initial Impressions
« Reply #160 on: November 28, 2017, 03:33:06 pm »
+4

Necromancer can only play the same Tragic Hero in the trash once per turn.
If you Necro the TH and it trashes itself, isn't it turned face up?

Nope! You didn't trash it because it was already in the trash. So it's still face-down.
Logged

jonaskoelker

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 201
  • Grand Market = cantrip Woodcutter
  • Respect: +252
    • View Profile
Re: Nocturne Initial Impressions
« Reply #161 on: November 28, 2017, 06:20:14 pm »
0

I stand corrected. You all agree that if I Necro an Encampment and don't reveal, it gets set aside (and if it's face down, everyone gets to look at it) and later gets returned to the supply (face up)?
Logged

LastFootnote

  • Board Moderator
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6727
  • Shuffle iT Username: LastFootnote
  • Respect: +9077
    • View Profile
Re: Nocturne Initial Impressions
« Reply #162 on: November 28, 2017, 06:29:46 pm »
+2

I stand corrected. You all agree that if I Necro an Encampment and don't reveal, it gets set aside (and if it's face down, everyone gets to look at it) and later gets returned to the supply (face up)?

No, for the same reason Reserve cards you Necro don’t go to your Tavern mat.
Logged

jonaskoelker

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 201
  • Grand Market = cantrip Woodcutter
  • Respect: +252
    • View Profile
Re: Nocturne Initial Impressions
« Reply #163 on: November 28, 2017, 06:44:56 pm »
0

No, for the same reason Reserve cards you Necro don’t go to your Tavern mat.
Huh, dangit. I could'a sworn I remember DXV saying that Necro playing an action merely failed to put the action in play but didn't impact its movement in any other way. The Nocturne rulebook states something different. Huh.

Maybe I'm just getting old and brainfarty or something :o
Logged

Jeebus

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1041
  • Shuffle iT Username: jeebus
  • Respect: +756
    • View Profile
Re: Nocturne Initial Impressions
« Reply #164 on: November 28, 2017, 07:29:02 pm »
+7

Huh, dangit. I could'a sworn I remember DXV saying that Necro playing an action merely failed to put the action in play but didn't impact its movement in any other way. The Nocturne rulebook states something different. Huh.

That's true, that's all Necro does. But since it's not in play, no ability that expects it to be in play will move it. That includes all cards that move themselves when they get played. They all expect to be in play when that happens. So also Madman, Wish, Island...

What Donald mentioned was cards like Graverobber that can gain a card from trash. There's nothing stopping a Graverobber in the trash (played with Necro) from gaining itself from the trash. It expects to gain a card from the trash. It could be any card, but it happened to be a Graverobber (itself).
« Last Edit: November 28, 2017, 07:34:06 pm by Jeebus »
Logged

Seprix

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5305
  • Shuffle iT Username: Seprix
  • Respect: +3020
    • View Profile
    • The Border Village
Re: Nocturne Initial Impressions
« Reply #165 on: December 01, 2017, 08:33:48 pm »
+1

tristan 4.0 is banned.

I'm like 99% sure you're joking, but, you are joking, right? That would be the quickest witch hunt ever if not.

More on topic: I don't know that I think Josh was being condescending until after he was first accused of being condescending, although I should admit I haven't read those other two threads Trivialknot linked to. I agree with Seprix though, deescalation would be good, because this has been a very enjoyable thread so far, and it'd be cool to keep it like that

While I don't think he really did anything too bad here, he definitely showed behavior similar enough to Tristan's to get me to suspect him. If he was really banned I'm pretty sure it would be due to his past accounts behavior than whatever he did now. And while there's no way for me to be sure he's actually tristan, I guess Theory might have some way to find out.

There's always tells with Tristan, and those involve his writing style, recognition of the past in ways that Tristan was interested in, and eagerness to argue pointlessly and with great fervor. All that and a Theory-style background check pretty much makes it 100%.
Logged
WOWIE I GUESS I HAVE TO DO EVERYTHING AROUND HERE

greybirdofprey

  • Alchemist
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 39
  • Respect: +27
    • View Profile
Re: Nocturne Initial Impressions
« Reply #166 on: December 06, 2017, 11:05:19 am »
+2

With thief and pixie in the kingdom you can steal someone's goat and make a goat eat another goat. Goat cannibalism confirmed canon.

Not that you should buy a thief to begin with.
Logged

faust

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1732
  • Shuffle iT Username: faust
  • Respect: +2330
    • View Profile
Re: Nocturne Initial Impressions
« Reply #167 on: December 06, 2017, 11:14:15 am »
+2

With thief and pixie in the kingdom you can steal someone's goat and make a goat eat another goat. Goat cannibalism confirmed canon.

Not that you should buy a thief to begin with.
Or just use Masquerade.
Logged
Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

jsh357

  • Margrave
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2519
  • Shuffle iT Username: jsh357
  • Respect: +4145
    • View Profile
    • JSH Gaming: Original games
Re: Nocturne Initial Impressions
« Reply #168 on: December 06, 2017, 12:06:56 pm »
+5

My impression so far is that nocturne is really fun.
Logged
Join the Dominion community Discord channel! Chat in text and voice; enter dumb tournaments; spy on top players!

https://discord.gg/2rDpJ4N

trivialknot

  • Witch
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 464
  • Respect: +675
    • View Profile
Re: Nocturne Initial Impressions
« Reply #169 on: December 06, 2017, 02:09:51 pm »
+8

So, I've finally gotten my hands on an IRL copy of the Nocturne, and have played about 30 games with 5 Nocturne cards each.  Here are my initial impressions.

Overall - Overall, games seem to be sloggier.  Which I like.  Now, I said the same thing about Empires when Empires came out, the reason being trashing was weak (relative to Adventures and Dark Ages) and there were so many ways to get points by ruining your own deck (which I probably overvalued initially).  For Nocturne, it seems to be sloggier because the draw is often limited, awkward, or inconsistent.  And I really want to try all those Night cards, which are stop cards in the action phase.  It may be that I am initially playing it incorrectly, but that's how it stands now.

Boons/Hexes - These are a lot of fun.  There are definitely some boons/hexes that you are happier to see, but it never feels like someone gets way ahead just because of a single boon/hex.  There are too many revealed in a game and it tends to average out.  I think the most powerful boons are Sun's gift, Wind's Gift, and Earth's Gift; the most powerful hexes are Envy, Delusion, and Poverty.

Heirlooms - While the concept of Heirlooms is great, I think it's the cards themselves that make it amazing.  Lucky Coin and Cursed Gold offer an interesting choice about how many silvers/curses you want.  Pouch and Goat are great to have but maybe you don't want to rely on them because there's only one of each.  The minigames for Magic Lamp and Haunted Mirror are fun, but not overpowered, so there's an interesting choice of whether to go for them.  Pasture has me questioning whether an Estate rush can be good.

Bard - Bard isn't that bad. If you have space for terminal money it's great.  Also, I wouldn't say it was too simple or boring.  If all the boon text were on Bard itself we would complain that it was too complicated.

Blessed Village - This makes the village idiot strategy feel good, even though it probably isn't.  I think you pick these up a bit earlier than you would normally pick up village, because the boons help even when the village effect won't help until later.

Cemetery/Haunted Mirror - From what I've seen of people streaming games online, I think people are way undervaluing Cemetery.  I buy this card way more often, and I still think I'm undervaluing it.  Thinning is winning.

I feel like I have been overvaluing Ghost.  Sometimes it feels like it was a mistake to get it, because the opportunity cost was too high and it was too slow.  In an engine, I don't want to rely on Ghost because it's only every other turn, so I end up building a deck where Ghost only gives me overdraw.

Changeling - It's a fun card, but I haven't played any games where it felt outstanding.  I tried to gain a Prince once, but my opponent pointed out that I couldn't unless I played Prince without Princing anything.  I regret not doing that.

Cobbler - A strong card.  The player that goes for this seems to win every time, although that could be coincidence.

Conclave - Although strictly weaker than Festival, it's really strong at $4, because it lets you get them early on, when you need the economy.  Then later when you need villages, you already have them.

Crypt - I thought Crypt seemed really strong, but I am reconsidering that view.  Or maybe I just need to buy more until they self-synergize!  The problem is that if you're drawing your deck, you don't really want to pseudotrash your treasure, and if you're not drawing your deck, Crypt is so unreliable.  I think it's better than Treasury.

Cursed Village - I feel like this could create engines all on its own, but I haven't gotten a kingdom with the right support yet.  It's good even without support.

Den of Sin - It feels great to draw those cards, but man, it's basically Caravan + Expedition.  It can't possibly be as good as it feels.  I don't think you should try to draw your deck with just these.

Devil's Workshop - It's a bit awkward that you don't get a choice of what to gain, but I still think this is one of the strongest cards in the set, because Imps are just so good.  It's bad whenever Imps are bad.

Druid - The only time this seemed good was when it was the only trasher, and then the other boons were nice options.  Otherwise I haven't gotten good use out of it.

Exorcist - Another card I thought would be strong, but I might reconsider.  It seems like it should be at least as good as Raze, but it's slowed down because it costs $4, and you don't get Will'o'wisp until the next shuffle.  I think you'd rather have a trasher that gave you economy instead of spirits.

Faithful Hound - One time I went for a Storeroom/Faithful Hound deck, not really expecting it to be good.  The deck exceeded my expectations.  Luckily I never dudded, although my opponent put up a good fight with Raiders.

Fool/Lucky Coin - Fool is good when sifting at the beginning of the turn is good.  Which is often.  Unfortunately my opponent seems to think so too, and then Fool turns into a terminal +3 boons, which isn't as good.

Ghost Town - I haven't gotten much mileage out of this yet.

Guardian - It's so bad, but I still buy them.  I played a torturer game where I fell behind, but I ended up with 4 guardians instead of 9 curses so that was nice.  Still lost though.

Idol - It might not be the fastest Curser in the game, but nonterminal cursing is still so good.  And to pull it off, you need lots of them.  It's ironic that the weakness of Idol (only even Idols curse) means that you want more of them.  Boons are good too but the buy phase isn't the best time for them.

Leprechaun - I like how this card is useful in both engines (where you try to get wishes) and in big money (because of gold).  Although, I think it's better for big money.  Hexes seem marginal, and wishes often come too late in the game.

Monastery - Although on paper this is as good as forager, it feels weaker for some reason.  I think it's a psychological effect of playing it during the night phase or something.  Also it doesn't work with draw-to-X so much.

Necromancer - I'm always happy to have more of these, because then I could trash good actions and take greater advantage of them than my opponent.  And if I have extras, zombie spy followed by zombie mason is fine.  The only issue is the opportunity cost of picking them up.

Night Watchman - This is a great sifter, much better than Guide.  Although it's not great when you're drawing deck.  Either there are no cards to sift, or you cause a bad shuffle.

Pixie/Goat - Pixie is a star $2-cost card, and makes so that I'm never sad to hit only $2.

Pooka - I've seen online streamers buy this, and then crash and burn.  My opponent, not having seen those, did the same.  But I think it's actually a decent card, with the right support.  Just don't open with it.

Raider - So, Raider is pretty much Gold, but if you're buying Gold you'd really rather it not skip shuffles.  The attack part has its moments, like when my opponent stacked them vs my Faithful Hound deck, but in general it is very marginal.

Sacred Grove - I know that terminal money cards tend to be the lowest ranked ones, but as far as terminal money goes this is really good.  The +Buy just helps it so much relative to other cards like Harvest, Mandarin, Counting House, Merchant Ship, Giant.

Secret Cave/Magic Lamp - Secret Cave isn't that strong, but one time I got a bunch of them as part of a Double-Tactician deck.  I bailed on that deck when I realized my only trashers were Goat and Bat, but I wish I had given it a chance.

Shepherd/Pasture - I get mixed results when I play with this, and I'm not yet sure why.  It seems like there are some situations where you want to pick up a few Shepherds and green really hard, but I'm not sure of the correct timing.

Skulk - Haven't used this too much.  Mostly I get it for the gold, and then I exchange Skulk for Changeling or trash it.

Tormentor - I've bought this a few times in order to get Imps.  I've only ever gotten 2 or 3 Imps.  Well, Imps are good, so I'm satisfied with it.

Tracker/Pouch - I think it's stronger than it looks, because boons are powerful and topdecking is particularly good early on.  But let's not get carried away, it's a terminal $2-cost, it can only be so good.

Tragic Hero - I love this card!  Not that it's particularly strong, I just like it a lot.  Once I tried deliberately trashing them (with Ghost Town) on the theory that I wanted Gold in my deck.  It turns out that no, I'd rather keep the Tragic Heroes if possible.

Vampire - It's weaker than it looks at first, because it's just so slow.  If you buy Vampire instead of some other $5-cost, it delays that $5-cost by a shuffle, and you don't get additional $5-costs for another two shuffles.  It's still really good though.

Werewolf - This really feels like a smithy-minus to me.  Drawing cards is way better than hexing is, so it seems like you only end up hexing a lot if you are building your deck poorly.
Logged

Cave-o-sapien

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 572
  • Respect: +907
    • View Profile
Re: Nocturne Initial Impressions
« Reply #170 on: December 06, 2017, 03:18:34 pm »
+3

With thief and pixie in the kingdom you can steal someone's goat and make a goat eat another goat. Goat cannibalism confirmed canon.

Not that you should buy a thief to begin with.
Or just use Masquerade.

Well, I certainly wouldn't just give my goat to someone, especially if I suspected them of goat cannibalism.
Logged

crj

  • Duke
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 395
  • Respect: +501
    • View Profile
Re: Nocturne Initial Impressions
« Reply #171 on: December 06, 2017, 08:03:28 pm »
+3

Now, I said the same thing about Empires when Empires came out, the reason being trashing was weak (relative to Adventures and Dark Ages)
I'm not sure the set that includes Donate can fairly be accused of having weak trashing!
Logged

trivialknot

  • Witch
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 464
  • Respect: +675
    • View Profile
Re: Nocturne Initial Impressions
« Reply #172 on: December 06, 2017, 08:38:20 pm »
+1

Now, I said the same thing about Empires when Empires came out, the reason being trashing was weak (relative to Adventures and Dark Ages)
I'm not sure the set that includes Donate can fairly be accused of having weak trashing!
Someone said the exact same thing when Empires came out, and my response is still the same: Donate is just one card.  Or zero, depending on how you count them.  In Empires-heavy games, specific landmarks and events don't come out very often relative to kingdom cards.  At the time that I shared my initial impressions of Empires, I think I had played literally one game with Donate, whereas I had played several with all the kingdom card trashers (Catapult, Temple, Sacrifice).
Logged

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9988
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (´。• ω •。`)
  • Respect: +10101
    • View Profile
Re: Nocturne Initial Impressions
« Reply #173 on: December 07, 2017, 01:15:51 am »
+1

Catapult and Temple are also some of the most powerful trashers in the game and Sacrifice is fine.
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The Twitch channel where I stream DominionThe YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's albums for free

faust

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1732
  • Shuffle iT Username: faust
  • Respect: +2330
    • View Profile
Re: Nocturne Initial Impressions
« Reply #174 on: December 07, 2017, 01:26:19 am »
+1

Catapult and Temple are also some of the most powerful trashers in the game and Sacrifice is fine.
Well, Catapult is powerful, but it certainly doesn't make for quick games, and games with it would feel sloggier compared to other trashers.
Logged
Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.
Pages: 1 ... 5 6 [7] 8  All
 

Page created in 0.131 seconds with 21 queries.