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Author Topic: Nocturne Initial Impressions  (Read 13006 times)

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LastFootnote

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Re: Nocturne Initial Impressions
« Reply #50 on: November 17, 2017, 09:29:09 am »
+3

Quote
why Guardian? its too similar too Light house. So why?

Because there aren't enough reactions or other protection mechanisms in the previous sets to account for Hexes. It adds some balance. If a set adds attacks, it has to add defenses or the whole game tilts. No directed defense works for Hexes, so a universal attack neutralizer was the only option.

Plus, you can't draw a Night card dead, so it could be better when playing money or a slog that relies on a few big terminal draw cards, particularly if they're attacks. I'd think about throwing it in with Margrave or Torturer, especially if the engine was weak.
Right, but I think he's saying that it is functionally identical (almost) to lighthouse and if there is going to be an additional protection card, then he'd like to see one that is a little more unique than something that feels almost the same as lighthouse. I agree with him;I do think Donald could have differentiated it a little bit more beyond the mere fact that it is a night card.

And it's gained to your hand! Don't forget that.

I don't want to spoil the secret history, but Guardian used to be more distinct from Lighthouse. Very near the end of testing it was becoming more clear that it was problematic, and there were only so many options for changing it. I too wish it were more unique, but I'm not super sad with how it turned out.
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markusin

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Re: Nocturne Initial Impressions
« Reply #51 on: November 17, 2017, 09:32:13 am »
+1

Quote
why Guardian? its too similar too Light house. So why?

Because there aren't enough reactions or other protection mechanisms in the previous sets to account for Hexes. It adds some balance. If a set adds attacks, it has to add defenses or the whole game tilts. No directed defense works for Hexes, so a universal attack neutralizer was the only option.

Plus, you can't draw a Night card dead, so it could be better when playing money or a slog that relies on a few big terminal draw cards, particularly if they're attacks. I'd think about throwing it in with Margrave or Torturer, especially if the engine was weak.
Right, but I think he's saying that it is functionally identical (almost) to lighthouse and if there is going to be an additional protection card, then he'd like to see one that is a little more unique than something that feels almost the same as lighthouse. I agree with him;I do think Donald could have differentiated it a little bit more beyond the mere fact that it is a night card.

Let's be fair, the lighthouse effect is something that actually does what it is supposed to do in a practical way, compared to say Moat that has to be in your starting hand. With hexes being so diverse in effect and slapped onto I think four cards that deal them to an opponent, an extra defense card is appreciated. Nocturne is a big set too, so there is space for a few questionable cards.

Guardian does the gain to hand thing as a night card to fit the theme. I mean, Engineer is just a debt-cost Workshop with a one-shot ability, and Royal Carriage is a Reserve Throne Room.
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benedettosoxfan

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Re: Nocturne Initial Impressions
« Reply #52 on: November 17, 2017, 09:33:30 am »
+4

Guardian's gain to hand clause is pretty big I think. Especially in the early going if you can tell that your opponent is due to draw their mountebank or if you know you're about to face a cultist chain, you can spend a $2 buy as insurance to make sure you're protected for your next turn. Likewise, it's good if you know you're going to want an extra boost in cash for the next turn. It's almost like villa where you probably don't want to buy it until the actual turn you need it. Also, I've always found it strange that there have only been 2 cards that just straight up nullify attacks. I don't think it hurts to have a 3rd one just to increase the odds of one showing up in a random kingdom.
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SinisterHologram

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Re: Nocturne Initial Impressions
« Reply #53 on: November 17, 2017, 09:51:38 am »
0

Guardian's gain to hand clause is pretty big I think. Especially in the early going if you can tell that your opponent is due to draw their mountebank or if you know you're about to face a cultist chain, you can spend a $2 buy as insurance to make sure you're protected for your next turn. Likewise, it's good if you know you're going to want an extra boost in cash for the next turn. It's almost like villa where you probably don't want to buy it until the actual turn you need it. Also, I've always found it strange that there have only been 2 cards that just straight up nullify attacks. I don't think it hurts to have a 3rd one just to increase the odds of one showing up in a random kingdom.
Oh yeah, I forgot that Guardian is gained to hand. That does make it different.

I'm having a hard time conceptualizing the cards in this set for some reason. The night cards are especially hard to evaluate for me since they work only slightly differently from actions.
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JThorne

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Re: Nocturne Initial Impressions
« Reply #54 on: November 17, 2017, 10:13:37 am »
+4

Quote
I've always found it strange that there have only been 2 cards that just straight up nullify attacks.

Three. Moat, Lighthouse and Champion.

Two supply cards, though. So Champion has an asterisk. Also literally.
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SuperHans

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Re: Nocturne Initial Impressions
« Reply #55 on: November 17, 2017, 10:24:42 am »
+1

Dominion is full of cards with subtle differences. Guardian is just another example. How many different villages do we have again?
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SinisterHologram

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Re: Nocturne Initial Impressions
« Reply #56 on: November 17, 2017, 10:29:19 am »
0

Quote
I've always found it strange that there have only been 2 cards that just straight up nullify attacks.

Three. Moat, Lighthouse and Champion.

Two supply cards, though. So Champion has an asterisk. Also literally.
Champion has always bothered me; by the time you get it, the game is usually over and basically decided anyway. It's a deceptively boring card.
But anyway, we're talking about Guardian. Now that I am realizing you can always play it the turn you get it, I see now that it is really strong and definitely different from lighthouse. I would say this makes it for sure better than lighthouse in most cases.
The thing that we also need to take into account when evaluating night cards is that they are NOT action cards. This makes a difference for things like scrying pool and ironmonger, where it matters whether or not "action" is in its type. That part slightly diminishes Guardian, but not by much.
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Re: Nocturne Initial Impressions
« Reply #57 on: November 17, 2017, 10:46:17 am »
+4

I'm very disappointed with the Guardian artwork. I was expecting this:

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Re: Nocturne Initial Impressions
« Reply #58 on: November 17, 2017, 10:52:08 am »
+2

I'm very disappointed with the Guardian artwork. I was expecting this:

I was expecting this for haunted mirror:
« Last Edit: November 17, 2017, 10:57:18 am by SinisterHologram »
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Re: Nocturne Initial Impressions
« Reply #59 on: November 17, 2017, 11:09:08 am »
+10

I'm very disappointed with the Guardian artwork. I was expecting this:

I was expecting this for haunted mirror:


Yeah man, I'm super disappointed that none of the cards have animated gif arts.
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SinisterHologram

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Re: Nocturne Initial Impressions
« Reply #60 on: November 17, 2017, 11:11:35 am »
+1

Yeah man, I'm super disappointed that none of the cards have animated gif arts.
I mean, it's two thousand and friggin seventeen fer cripes-sakes. You would think they could do that by now.
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Re: Nocturne Initial Impressions
« Reply #61 on: November 17, 2017, 11:30:40 am »
+3

Quote
I've always found it strange that there have only been 2 cards that just straight up nullify attacks.

Three. Moat, Lighthouse and Champion.

Two supply cards, though. So Champion has an asterisk. Also literally.
Champion has always bothered me; by the time you get it, the game is usually over and basically decided anyway. It's a deceptively boring card.
But anyway, we're talking about Guardian. Now that I am realizing you can always play it the turn you get it, I see now that it is really strong and definitely different from lighthouse. I would say this makes it for sure better than lighthouse in most cases.
The thing that we also need to take into account when evaluating night cards is that they are NOT action cards. This makes a difference for things like scrying pool and ironmonger, where it matters whether or not "action" is in its type. That part slightly diminishes Guardian, but not by much.

Lighthouse gives +coin the turn you play it, unlike Guardian. Like all the gain-to-hand night cards, Guardian is better than other compatible cards at its price point when you gain it, but drops off in power as the game goes on. This is often fine considering the snowball-y nature of Dominion.
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SuperHans

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Re: Nocturne Initial Impressions
« Reply #62 on: November 17, 2017, 12:15:58 pm »
+1

Quote
I've always found it strange that there have only been 2 cards that just straight up nullify attacks.

Three. Moat, Lighthouse and Champion.

Two supply cards, though. So Champion has an asterisk. Also literally.
Champion has always bothered me; by the time you get it, the game is usually over and basically decided anyway. It's a deceptively boring card.
But anyway, we're talking about Guardian. Now that I am realizing you can always play it the turn you get it, I see now that it is really strong and definitely different from lighthouse. I would say this makes it for sure better than lighthouse in most cases.
The thing that we also need to take into account when evaluating night cards is that they are NOT action cards. This makes a difference for things like scrying pool and ironmonger, where it matters whether or not "action" is in its type. That part slightly diminishes Guardian, but not by much.

Lighthouse gives +coin the turn you play it, unlike Guardian. Like all the gain-to-hand night cards, Guardian is better than other compatible cards at its price point when you gain it, but drops off in power as the game goes on. This is often fine considering the snowball-y nature of Dominion.
Guardian does have its benefits toward the end of the game as well. Not only can you immediately set up your defense again if it gets trashed, but if you're expecting that you're going to end the game on the next turn, you can buy it and ensure that your hand is protected (while giving you plus $1). It could be a very useful late game strategy on certain boards.
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crj

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Re: Nocturne Initial Impressions
« Reply #63 on: November 17, 2017, 12:57:44 pm »
+2

I mean, it's two thousand and friggin seventeen fer cripes-sakes. You would think they could do that by now.
Well, you can buy a keyboard where the legend on each key is dynamically reprogrammable, even animated. Trouble is, it costs $1,500.

I have idly wondered how soon we'll be able to buy a deck of cards where each card is a colour e-ink panel with some kind of mesh networking and cordless charging. I'll stick my neck out and say there will be a prototype nobody can afford within a decade...
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Re: Nocturne Initial Impressions
« Reply #64 on: November 17, 2017, 01:07:50 pm »
+1

Yeah man, I'm super disappointed that none of the cards have animated gif arts.
I mean, it's two thousand and friggin seventeen fer cripes-sakes. You would think they could do that by now.

Donaldpls
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crj

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Re: Nocturne Initial Impressions
« Reply #65 on: November 17, 2017, 01:09:05 pm »
0

Champion has always bothered me; by the time you get it, the game is usually over and basically decided anyway.
Going for Champion just because it looks cool is a mistake. But you can build some powerful strategies around it.

For example, I scored a convincing victory on a kingdom with Page, Bridge Troll, Guide, Ratcatcher by opening Page/Guide and prioritising upgrading my first Page over all other considerations. Pretty soon, I had a Champion in play and an unstoppable Bridge Troll + Warrior engine that pummelled the other players mercilessly while I collected enough Bridge Trolls for the megaturn. There's a lot of mileage in designing your deck around powerful cards that would otherwise be terminals and making sure to reach Champion before it seizes up.
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JThorne

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Re: Nocturne Initial Impressions
« Reply #66 on: November 17, 2017, 01:11:13 pm »
+5

It's going to be a while before I stop snickering at the game log message:

"[player X] plays a Fool."

Boy, is Nocturne tricky. Love Pooka. Changeling is amazing with Lucky Coin, but really hard to play correctly. If you get it too early, you'll draw it dead by virtue of having nothing in play worth chucking it for. Just played a lovely Pooka/Changeling/Idol money deck, using free Changelings to get more Pooka's and Idols. The importance of Night cards being impossible to draw dead is hard to overstate.

The Boons keep being a little bit better than I expect them to be.

Also Goat. The only thing bad about Goat is that there can be only one. Possibly my favorite card in the set. One day I will get to crown my Goat, and he will be the king of Goats. Even the Prince of Stewards will be impressed.

I was a little sad when one of my Pookas ate my Goat, but there was no Goat food left, so it had to be done.
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Cave-o-sapien

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Re: Nocturne Initial Impressions
« Reply #67 on: November 17, 2017, 01:12:34 pm »
+8

Also Goat. The only thing bad about Goat is that there can be only one.

By definition there can only be one GOAT.
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jonaskoelker

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Re: Nocturne Initial Impressions
« Reply #68 on: November 17, 2017, 01:39:25 pm »
+2

Okay, some hot takes based on zero playing with the cards: [...] Monastery/Banquet will be a thing.
With Banquet on the board and three Coppers in hand, Monastery is approximately like an Altar with +1 action and -1 buy: on net it trashes one copper and gains a $5'er.

Altar is good*. Altar for $2 is real good. Spending basically your whole turn doing it, meh, maybe? But compared to most early turns, yay.

(* 15th out of 32 $6+'ers in Qvist's rankings. It's middling in a field of really strong cards.)
« Last Edit: November 17, 2017, 05:51:43 pm by jonaskoelker »
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SinisterHologram

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Re: Nocturne Initial Impressions
« Reply #69 on: November 17, 2017, 02:12:46 pm »
0

Yeah, goat is a neat little card. Obviously not as good as some other trashers, but still pretty good since it's a treasure and you don't even have to buy it.
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Re: Nocturne Initial Impressions
« Reply #70 on: November 17, 2017, 04:55:44 pm »
0

I think having Guardian is fine. As Dominion grows bigger, you are going to see cards less and less. When Seaside came out, if you played with all expansions you would see Lighthouse one out of eight kingdoms, plus there was Moat. We got Champion, but that takes setting up.The whole completely stop an Attack is a pretty rare effect.
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Re: Nocturne Initial Impressions
« Reply #71 on: November 17, 2017, 05:03:16 pm »
+1

I haven't actually had a game with tragic hero yet, but just by reading it, it seems almost always worse than margrave.  Is that true? I mean, if fortune or platinum or maybe bank are on the board it seems like TH would be really good, but other than that, don't you usually just try to avoid trashing him?
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Re: Nocturne Initial Impressions
« Reply #72 on: November 17, 2017, 05:12:55 pm »
+1

The funny thing with tragic hero is, with a little trick, you can gain that treasure and draw it just after by another action, so it can enable nice megaturns.
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Re: Nocturne Initial Impressions
« Reply #73 on: November 17, 2017, 06:18:54 pm »
+1

Tragic Hero seems even worse than Library for drawing. I had to go back and look at it again to make sure I read it right. A freaking Smithy is almost always going to be better. Why is this $5?
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Re: Nocturne Initial Impressions
« Reply #74 on: November 17, 2017, 06:24:38 pm »
0

Tragic Hero seems even worse than Library for drawing. I had to go back and look at it again to make sure I read it right. A freaking Smithy is almost always going to be better. Why is this $5?
+Buy
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