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Author Topic: Seprix's Tier Lists For Every Dominion Set  (Read 10586 times)

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JThorne

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Re: Seprix's Tier Lists For Every Dominion Set
« Reply #125 on: November 21, 2017, 11:55:27 am »
+1

Quote
would you consider (Picky Village) a Splitter even though it would never help you play two Bridges in one turn (and would proactively prevent such a thing for the rest of the turn)?

Wait, let's see if I can be a straw-Awaclus. Royal Carriage on the mat, Picky Village, Royal Blacksmith to draw, extra action from PV allows Throne Room on King's Court, call RC on King's Court, triple Highway, Bridge and Wine Merchant. Play a Counterfeit. $16, 8 buys, piledrive Provinces.

Looks like a splitter to me! Imp/Royal Blacksmith would have just made sadness.

P.S. Gives me more appreciation for how hard it is to write card text without rules issues. Would Picky Village prevent calling RC to re-play an action? A card like that would call for a clarified definition of what "play" means.
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FemurLemur

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Re: Seprix's Tier Lists For Every Dominion Set
« Reply #126 on: November 21, 2017, 12:40:26 pm »
+1

While I'm ranting: I also have a brother who rolls his eyes every time he hears there's a new Dominion Expansion and says something along the lines of "Jeez, they're gonna have to start a rotation soon like all the other CCGs if they want players to be able to keep up".
I think there is some truth to this. If attracting new players to competitive Dominion was important for the business model (as it is for CCGs both paper and virtual) then I think there would be value to a "season" approach.

Well, no doubt there could be business value in a rotation. But I don't think my brother's position is that they need to do it for business reasons so much as it is that the game needs it for balance similarly to how CCGs do. So like, if your position is "it would be good business to rotate" or "it would help players gain familiarity", then I agree. But if your position is "you have to be able to know the cards in the card pool to play a game of Dominion well", then I don't.

The way I think of it is like this: Donald X could release 10,000 new cards tomorrow and it wouldn't fundamentally change the way I think about any one specific round of Dominion, only in how I tackle meta analysis or general Dominion discussion. In every case, I am presented with 10-11 Kingdom Cards (and possibly some Events/Landmarks), and it is my task to figure out the best path to victory under the circumstances. The fact that I currently have familiarity with most of the cards in the card pool is very convenient, but I don't view it as relevant to any specific match itself, because the 10 cards in the supply don't really care about the rest of the cards in the card pool.

In a CCG, you need to know the card pool because you need to know what could possibly be in your opponent's deck (which is hidden information) and use predictions to guide your decision making process. That's not a thing in Dominion. I know what's available to my opponent. It's the same stuff available to me. So there's this specific reason (among others) for CCGs to have rotation that isn't a factor with Dominion, and I believe my brother is overlooking that to some extent.
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filovirus

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Re: Seprix's Tier Lists For Every Dominion Set
« Reply #127 on: November 21, 2017, 01:31:03 pm »
0

A couple of observations from this:

1) First of all, I really like this idea. Thanks for doing it and thanks to everyone for the good , civil discussion in this thread. There are lots of good points being made by everyone to support their opinion

2) I am really impressed with how this shows the huge difference in the 2nd edition cards versus the ones that were replaced. Most of the replaced cards would have been F or at best D, but the majority of the new cards are rated A to C. That is pretty cool!  I wish all of the people who rejected base Dominion because they felt it was too simple or predictable would have started with 2nd edition. Perhaps their opinions would be different now.

3) The last Qvist ranking had Wishing Well at 26 and Smugglers at 33. So how are they possibly worthy of an A ranking? Wouldnít a card worthy of an A ranking at least be in the top 15 of its cost group?

4) Lookout is a card I like to buy early, but, of course, I never buy a bunch of them. It doesnít take that long for them to possibly do more harm than good. It only ranked 20 in the last Qvist ranking. To me a card ranked S would have to be a card so fundamentally powerful, you donít dare ignore it. If there are other good thrashers, I have no problem ignoring Lookout. Personally, I would not have any trouble with Lookout as a B, though I can see a case for it as an A.

5) Like many, I would definitely put Cutpurse at least on the same level, if not above Explorer rather than the other way around. In Qvist rankings, Explorer ranked 87 out of 96, but Cutpurse was 45 out of 73. So Cutpurse ranks much higher among 4ís than Explorer does among 5ís. I pretty much always buy a Cutpurse, but Explorer is very ignorable.

The Qvist rankings are good for getting an rough idea of card power. However, it is difficult to compare different costing cards with each other using the Qvist rankings. I like Seprix's idea of a tier system better for comparing between price points.
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Awaclus

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Re: Seprix's Tier Lists For Every Dominion Set
« Reply #128 on: November 21, 2017, 07:01:56 pm »
+1

We didn't. I was just in a hurry, so I accidentally conflated soft terminal with pseudo-village (or "splitter" as Awaclus prefers) in my head. I was mentally comparing Imp to Herald as cards which sometimes play an additional action card. Which is wrong of course- Herald will be a Cantrip at worst and a Splitter at best, Imp will be card draw at worst and a Cantrip (Lab Variant) at best. Imp will get you 0 Actions or 1 pseudo-action, whereas Herald will get you 1 Action and maybe also 1 pseudo-action.

For the record, I don't really care about what term is being used very much, but to the very small degree that I do care, the term I prefer is "anti-terminal" (but as I have stated before, I can call them villages or splitters or +actions or bananas or tacos or whatever else other people are calling them). Way more importantly than that, I prefer that the concept of "pseudo-"villages doesn't exist.

The real question shouldn't be "What is your definition of Splitter", it should be "When you say that Devil's Workshop is bad because it fills your deck with terminals, is that accounting for them being soft terminals?" My mistake for the mixup.

In that case, the answer is no. But they do very quickly become full-on terminals if you have too many of them.

I think I get what Chris is me is trying to say about Awaclus' stated definition of Splitter. Awaclus, would you consider the following card a Splitter even though it would never help you play two Bridges in one turn (and would proactively prevent such a thing for the rest of the turn)?

Quote
Picky Village
+1 Card
+2 Actions
You may not play additional copies beyond the 1st copy of any Action card except Picky Village for the rest of the turn.
Edited card text for clarity. Card's wording probably still sucks, but you get the idea of the thought experiment.

It still allows me to play a Bridge and a Bridge Troll so it's good enough.
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Willvon

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Re: Seprix's Tier Lists For Every Dominion Set
« Reply #129 on: November 22, 2017, 03:45:47 pm »
0

A couple of observations from this:

1) First of all, I really like this idea. Thanks for doing it and thanks to everyone for the good , civil discussion in this thread. There are lots of good points being made by everyone to support their opinion

2) I am really impressed with how this shows the huge difference in the 2nd edition cards versus the ones that were replaced. Most of the replaced cards would have been F or at best D, but the majority of the new cards are rated A to C. That is pretty cool!  I wish all of the people who rejected base Dominion because they felt it was too simple or predictable would have started with 2nd edition. Perhaps their opinions would be different now.

3) The last Qvist ranking had Wishing Well at 26 and Smugglers at 33. So how are they possibly worthy of an A ranking? Wouldnít a card worthy of an A ranking at least be in the top 15 of its cost group?

4) Lookout is a card I like to buy early, but, of course, I never buy a bunch of them. It doesnít take that long for them to possibly do more harm than good. It only ranked 20 in the last Qvist ranking. To me a card ranked S would have to be a card so fundamentally powerful, you donít dare ignore it. If there are other good thrashers, I have no problem ignoring Lookout. Personally, I would not have any trouble with Lookout as a B, though I can see a case for it as an A.

5) Like many, I would definitely put Cutpurse at least on the same level, if not above Explorer rather than the other way around. In Qvist rankings, Explorer ranked 87 out of 96, but Cutpurse was 45 out of 73. So Cutpurse ranks much higher among 4ís than Explorer does among 5ís. I pretty much always buy a Cutpurse, but Explorer is very ignorable.

The Qvist rankings are good for getting an rough idea of card power. However, it is difficult to compare different costing cards with each other using the Qvist rankings. I like Seprix's idea of a tier system better for comparing between price points.

I get what youíre saying. They are two different measures of the cards. However, I still donít see how a card can be considered middle of the pack in one list, and in another list, though a different rating system, they are somehow among the best cards in Dominion, which is what a card in the A tier should be.

So my question was how can Wishing Well and Smugglers be A tier in these rankings if they are not even close to that in other rankings.  Did we come up with some new use for them over the past year that suddenly made them better? Or what is it that makes them A tier cards? I must be missing something because I just donít see them as outstanding as I would expect an A tier card to be. They both have their situations where the shine, but they are often quite ignorable.
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Gazbag

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Re: Seprix's Tier Lists For Every Dominion Set
« Reply #130 on: November 22, 2017, 04:24:02 pm »
+1

A couple of observations from this:

1) First of all, I really like this idea. Thanks for doing it and thanks to everyone for the good , civil discussion in this thread. There are lots of good points being made by everyone to support their opinion

2) I am really impressed with how this shows the huge difference in the 2nd edition cards versus the ones that were replaced. Most of the replaced cards would have been F or at best D, but the majority of the new cards are rated A to C. That is pretty cool!  I wish all of the people who rejected base Dominion because they felt it was too simple or predictable would have started with 2nd edition. Perhaps their opinions would be different now.

3) The last Qvist ranking had Wishing Well at 26 and Smugglers at 33. So how are they possibly worthy of an A ranking? Wouldnít a card worthy of an A ranking at least be in the top 15 of its cost group?

4) Lookout is a card I like to buy early, but, of course, I never buy a bunch of them. It doesnít take that long for them to possibly do more harm than good. It only ranked 20 in the last Qvist ranking. To me a card ranked S would have to be a card so fundamentally powerful, you donít dare ignore it. If there are other good thrashers, I have no problem ignoring Lookout. Personally, I would not have any trouble with Lookout as a B, though I can see a case for it as an A.

5) Like many, I would definitely put Cutpurse at least on the same level, if not above Explorer rather than the other way around. In Qvist rankings, Explorer ranked 87 out of 96, but Cutpurse was 45 out of 73. So Cutpurse ranks much higher among 4ís than Explorer does among 5ís. I pretty much always buy a Cutpurse, but Explorer is very ignorable.

The Qvist rankings are good for getting an rough idea of card power. However, it is difficult to compare different costing cards with each other using the Qvist rankings. I like Seprix's idea of a tier system better for comparing between price points.

I get what youíre saying. They are two different measures of the cards. However, I still donít see how a card can be considered middle of the pack in one list, and in another list, though a different rating system, they are somehow among the best cards in Dominion, which is what a card in the A tier should be.

So my question was how can Wishing Well and Smugglers be A tier in these rankings if they are not even close to that in other rankings.  Did we come up with some new use for them over the past year that suddenly made them better? Or what is it that makes them A tier cards? I must be missing something because I just donít see them as outstanding as I would expect an A tier card to be. They both have their situations where the shine, but they are often quite ignorable.
I wouldn't put much stock in the Qvist rankings beyond the top and bottom 5 or so cards. I mean Smithy is at 15 and Envoy at 30- they're pretty much the same card!
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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: Seprix's Tier Lists For Every Dominion Set
« Reply #131 on: November 24, 2017, 10:36:33 am »
+2

Prosperity:

S: King's Court
A: Goons, Mountebank, Grand Market, Quarry
B: Peddler, Watchtower, City, Worker's Village, Monument, Rabble
C: Loan, Bishop, Bank, Forge
D: Vault, Talisman, Trade Route, Expand, Mint, Hoard, Venture, Contraband
F: Royal Seal, Counting House

Prosperity is the Gilded Age set. A lot of really good cards and a lot of really bad ones.
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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: Seprix's Tier Lists For Every Dominion Set
« Reply #132 on: November 25, 2017, 05:35:17 pm »
+1

Hinterlands:

S: Probably nothing.
A: Margrave, Border Village, Highway, Haggler
B: Fool's Gold, Spice Merchant, Stables, Jack Of All Trades, Scheme, Embassy,
C: Crossroads, Ill-Gotten Gains, Inn, Cartographer, Tunnel
D: Oasis, Develop, Trader, Oracle, Silk Road, Nomad Camp, Farmland, Mandarin
F: Noble Brigand, Cache, Duchess
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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: Seprix's Tier Lists For Every Dominion Set
« Reply #133 on: November 27, 2017, 11:18:06 pm »
0

Dark Ages:

S: Cultist, Rebuild
A: Urchin, Ironmonger, Wandering Minstrel, Count, Altar, Counterfeit,
B: Junk Dealer, Forager, Hunting Grounds, Hermit, Knights, Marauder, Market Square, Catacombs, Fortress
C: Bandit Camp, Squire, Mystic, Procession, Storeroom, Scavenger
D: Vagrant, Armory, Band of Misfits, Graverobber, Poor House, Rats, Pillage, Feodum, Sage, Death Cart, Rogue
F: Beggar
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ipofanes

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Re: Seprix's Tier Lists For Every Dominion Set
« Reply #134 on: November 28, 2017, 04:03:08 am »
0

Prosperity:

S: King's Court
A: Goons, Mountebank, Grand Market, Quarry
B: Peddler, Watchtower, City, Worker's Village, Monument, Rabble
C: Loan, Bishop, Bank, Forge
D: Vault, Talisman, Trade Route, Expand, Mint, Hoard, Venture, Contraband
F: Royal Seal, Counting House

Prosperity is the Gilded Age set. A lot of really good cards and a lot of really bad ones.

Generally I agree although I would nudge Loan and Venture one tier up. I am a sucker for cards that trash cards not in my hand, and Venture becomes better than Gold in so many kingdoms.
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Seprix

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Re: Seprix's Tier Lists For Every Dominion Set
« Reply #135 on: December 04, 2018, 08:00:32 pm »
+1

Time to redo these.
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