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Author Topic: Is buying Inn "bad" if it doesn't "stop" the reshuffle?  (Read 424 times)

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popsofctown

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Is buying Inn "bad" if it doesn't "stop" the reshuffle?
« on: November 12, 2017, 05:04:27 pm »
+1

My mind is really bad at reshuffle logic, but I have this theory that Inn's on-play effect doesn't really do anything if you shuffle in 5 cantrips into your empty deck and trigger the reshuffle anyway. 

Like... if you didn't buy the Inn, those 5 cards would be in the next reshuffle, just randomly mixed in through the whole deck.  When you shuffle those 5 cards in, you move them to the beginning of the reshuffle essentially, but they aren't part of two reshuffles, so it's like they're still getting their normal participation in the reshuffle.  You're just eating your Halloween candy on your way back to the minivan.

Putting cards at the earlier part of the reshuffle could be useful if the game might end soon.  But that's a condition that makes Duchy attractive too, and I've noticed at least most of the time when Inn is in the Supply, Duchy is too.  If you're ahead, Inn is probably the lower variance option, if you're behind, it seems better to buy the Duchy and then pray to whatever you worship in order to obtain Inn's ongain effect in the reshuffle and save the 5$ that way.



When you shuffle in stuff that won't trigger a reshuffle, like three festivals and two monuments or whatever, you get two uses, which seems good.  But even then, reshuffle logic is complicated and iterative and confusing, because you will reach the 2nd or 3rd iteration of your deck, when it is stronger, one hand slower, I think.  I guess the clearest way to demonstrate this point is to say, what if you shuffle in four Squires and a Festival, you guarantee a 6$ hand, and you also get the Inn action card, that's cool.  But what if, next reshuffle, there's a Gold in your deck that makes it possible you'll get your first King's Court, and what if the pivot point for either player this game is when their King's Court first collides with their Bridge?  Maybe you don't want to be one hand behind on a shot at that, even if you'll get 2 Labs that aid the collision in exchange (the Inn, and whatever you buy with that 6$ hand).

Ok I'll try to stop hear before this gets moved to Articles, then gets removed from Articles for being amateur.
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schadd

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Re: Is buying Inn "bad" if it doesn't "stop" the reshuffle?
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2017, 05:18:31 pm »
+1

You're just eating your Halloween candy on your way back to the minivan.
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drsteelhammer

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Re: Is buying Inn "bad" if it doesn't "stop" the reshuffle?
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2017, 05:56:18 pm »
+2

Sometimes I have a deck that doesn't consist of cantrips, but of Villages and drawing cards. It's really nice to start your turn with said cards, regardless of whether I'm causing a reshuffle or not. Just shuffling them regularly with some stop cards means that I might not draw them together and I lose their synergistic effect.*


*sorry Gherald :)
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crj

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Re: Is buying Inn "bad" if it doesn't "stop" the reshuffle?
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2017, 06:40:14 pm »
0

Like... if you didn't buy the Inn, those 5 cards would be in the next reshuffle, just randomly mixed in through the whole deck.  When you shuffle those 5 cards in, you move them to the beginning of the reshuffle essentially, but they aren't part of two reshuffles, so it's like they're still getting their normal participation in the reshuffle.  You're just eating your Halloween candy on your way back to the minivan.
I strongly suspect the answer is "it depends". Specifically, it depends what those cantrips are going to do for you.

If it was three Laboratories, an Upgrade and a Cellar, you bet I'm shuffling them in!
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Awaclus

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Re: Is buying Inn "bad" if it doesn't "stop" the reshuffle?
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2017, 06:44:42 pm »
0

If you're drawing (most of) your deck every turn, you can't play any cards twice per shuffle anyway.
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Titandrake

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Re: Is buying Inn "bad" if it doesn't "stop" the reshuffle?
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2017, 07:46:22 pm »
0

If you trigger a reshuffle the turn after you play Inn, you don't get to play the shuffled actions any more than you would if you hadn't bought Inn, since if you didn't buy Inn the actions would have gotten shuffled into your deck anyways. However, you do guarantee that those actions are not going to miss your next reshuffle. If you didn't buy Inn, your Actions could end up on the bottom of your shuffle, which would be sad.

Most of the value from Inn on-gain is on guaranteeing that you draw all your Actions in your next hand. Think of it like the Tactician argument: one big turn can be better than two small turns. Shuffling all your Highways into an empty draw pile is way better than hoping you draw and play all of them naturally. The extra shuffles part is more of a side bonus.
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O

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Re: Is buying Inn "bad" if it doesn't "stop" the reshuffle?
« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2017, 07:48:45 pm »
0

There's also no reason to assume the next shuffle will occur naturally -- you can always just buy another inn, and those actions will yet again avoid the "missing the shuffle" cost.
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JW

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Re: Is buying Inn "bad" if it doesn't "stop" the reshuffle?
« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2017, 08:17:51 pm »
0

There's also no reason to assume the next shuffle will occur naturally -- you can always just buy another inn, and those actions will yet again avoid the "missing the shuffle" cost.

If you’ve played the Actions you had set aside with the previous turn’s Inn, they won’t be in the discard pile to set aside with the next Inn.
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O

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Re: Is buying Inn "bad" if it doesn't "stop" the reshuffle?
« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2017, 08:20:41 pm »
+1

There's also no reason to assume the next shuffle will occur naturally -- you can always just buy another inn, and those actions will yet again avoid the "missing the shuffle" cost.

If you’ve played the Actions you had set aside with the previous turn’s Inn, they won’t be in the discard pile to set aside with the next Inn.

Right, I'm talking about Inn games with a larger deck and buying it the turn after.
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Chris is me

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Re: Is buying Inn "bad" if it doesn't "stop" the reshuffle?
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2017, 08:17:40 am »
+2

If you're drawing (most of) your deck every turn, you can't play any cards twice per shuffle anyway.

Obviously this is not when you’re getting Inn for the on-buy. It can’t be, because nothing’s in he discard. It’s really irritating that literally every discussion has a post going “if you draw your deck every turn it doesn’t matter”, necessitating the follow up post “look you actually don’t draw your entire deck in every minute of every game believe it or not”. Aren’t you sick of it too?
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Chris is me

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Re: Is buying Inn "bad" if it doesn't "stop" the reshuffle?
« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2017, 08:19:15 am »
0

Inn’s on-Buy isn’t bad in this case - it just makes your good cards all appear, together, right away. This is usually worth it, especially if any of those cards help you deal with the more diluted deck in the following turns, or there’s some synergistic payload (highway + gainers, etc). If you’d rather have several average turns, just don’t use the effect - but typically those games skew Moneyish and don’t need Villages as much anyway.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Is buying Inn "bad" if it doesn't "stop" the reshuffle?
« Reply #11 on: November 13, 2017, 11:17:49 am »
0

My mind is really bad at reshuffle logic, but I have this theory that Inn's on-play effect doesn't really do anything if you shuffle in 5 cantrips into your empty deck and trigger the reshuffle anyway. 

I assume this is a typo?
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DG

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Re: Is buying Inn "bad" if it doesn't "stop" the reshuffle?
« Reply #12 on: November 13, 2017, 11:46:23 am »
0

The basic inn benefits here are

1) you get an inn in your deck
2) you can put key action cards into your draw deck so you draw them sooner
3) you get to play action cards an extra time before the shuffle

You can buy the inn for any of those reasons. If you're looking at an inn as an opportunistic buy then the opportunity isn't as good when action cards will be in hand/play when you shuffle next turn. It still doesn't mean that it's bad. I'm not really seeing the duchy comparison as that depends on the deck and the opportunity you find yourself with.
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trivialknot

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Re: Is buying Inn "bad" if it doesn't "stop" the reshuffle?
« Reply #13 on: November 13, 2017, 12:11:22 pm »
0

Some time ago, I wrote an article about shuffle skipping.  One key point is that (usually) cards never skip more than one shuffle in a row.  So if you buy Inn and all your actions skip a shuffle, this at least guarantees that the actions will not skip the next shuffle.  This very slightly increases how often you see your actions.

But if you really want to see your actions more often, you could try the following:
-Instead of buying the Inn at the bottom of the shuffle, try buying it in the middle.  You won't reshuffle as many of your actions in your deck, but at least some of them won't skip the shuffle.
-After causing all your actions to skip the shuffle, buy another Inn the next turn.

As other people have noted, Inn's on buy lets you see your action cards clump together, which can be good good.  However, it's worth noting that in many cases you'd prefer your action cards spread out.  For example:
-You want terminals spread out so you have enough actions to play them (although the Inn helps).
-You want sifters spread out so they can discard junk instead of discarding valuable actions.
-You want trashers spread out so they can trash junk.
-If you're buy-limited, you want +$ cards spread out so you can spend it efficiently.

I think the most important part of Inn's on-gain, is that you can shuffle in the Inn you just gained.  If your current shuffle is over-terminaled, just buy an Inn to fix it without having to wait until the next shuffle.  Kind of like Ghost Town.
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