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Author Topic: Don't be fooled, nothing for you here  (Read 2654 times)

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Awaclus

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Re: Another awful thread about nothing
« Reply #25 on: November 09, 2017, 08:51:25 pm »
+3

You're correct that by my logic Village does not synergize with many things! It's a very simple card that doesn't do much besides allow you to gain additional actions to spend, which is a basic additive benefit.
It's not a basic additive benefit. You can play 10 Villages and you haven't gained anything at all if that's all you play that turn.
The benefit is additive. You just don't have a way to spend it in your scenario, which has nothing to do with my point.

If you don't have a way to benefit from the benefit, there's no benefit.
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Gazbag

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Re: Another awful thread about nothing
« Reply #26 on: November 09, 2017, 08:57:20 pm »
0

Do Apothecary and Bank have synergy according to Gherald's synergy rules?
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LastFootnote

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Re: Another awful thread about nothing
« Reply #27 on: November 09, 2017, 09:05:06 pm »
0

Do Apothecary and Bank have synergy according to Gherald's synergy rules?

Im going to guess they do.
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markusin

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Re: Another awful thread about nothing
« Reply #28 on: November 09, 2017, 09:38:39 pm »
+1

The distinction isn't a matter of degree or search space, it's a matter of specificity to how they interact with the rest of your deck or play decisions.

Coppersmith+Apothecary synergize because together they combine to increase the value of having copper in your deck in a way that's specific to copper and more than merely additive.

Coppersmith+Lab (to simplify the comparison) don't interact in a specific way. Their effects are generic and work just as well independent of each other, so they are just additive benefits. For example, why not trash the coppers and use your Labs to draw 1-2 silvers and a Gold?

Labs are nice and do reliable work in increasing your handsize, which can be good for many things, of which Coppersmith and coppers are only one (likely weak) possiblity. Not so with Apothecary, which has its peculiar synergy to keeping coppers around.

I think I have a clearer picture of what you are getting at now. However, I would argue that Coppersmith and Apothecary are two cards that both synergize with Copper, and so naturally they synergize with each other as well since they want the same thing.

You say "Coppersmith+Apothecary synergize because together they combine to increase the value of having copper in your deck in a way that's specific to copper and more than merely additive." Well each of those cards alone  increase the value of having Coppers in your deck. Why then is it is ridiculous to state that Coppersmith synergizes with Copper, or that Apothecary synergizes with Copper? Okay, maybe I am fixated more on the "increase the value of having copper in your deck", and they both do that on their own.

Of course together they synergize, with Coppersmith doubling the money drawn by Apothecary when it finds Copper. I guess this is what you mean by "more than merely additive"? This doesn't mean there isn't an innate synergy between these cards and Copper.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2017, 09:41:31 pm by markusin »
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crj

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Re: Another awful thread about nothing
« Reply #29 on: November 09, 2017, 09:58:53 pm »
+1

Even by the Village/Smithy yardstick, I'm not sure Guide and Ghost Town synergize. [...] (Guide either fails to account for the Ghost Town extra card, or throws it away.)

Uh... you're allowed to call Guide before taking Ghost Town's benefit, yes?
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markusin

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Re: Another awful thread about nothing
« Reply #30 on: November 09, 2017, 10:16:22 pm »
0

Even by the Village/Smithy yardstick, I'm not sure Guide and Ghost Town synergize. [...] (Guide either fails to account for the Ghost Town extra card, or throws it away.)

Uh... you're allowed to call Guide before taking Ghost Town's benefit, yes?

Yes. It took awhile for me to get that to click.
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Gherald

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Re: Another awful thread about nothing
« Reply #31 on: November 09, 2017, 10:29:55 pm »
0

I think I have a clearer picture of what you are getting at now. However, I would argue that Coppersmith and Apothecary are two cards that both synergize with Copper, and so naturally they synergize with each other as well since they want the same thing.Well

You say "Coppersmith+Apothecary synergize because together they combine to increase the value of having copper in your deck in a way that's specific to copper and more than merely additive." Well each of those cards alone  increase the value of having Coppers in your deck. Why then is it is ridiculous to state that Coppersmith synergizes with Copper, or that Apothecary synergizes with Copper? Okay, maybe I am fixated more on the "increase the value of having copper in your deck", and they both do that on their own.

Of course together they synergize, with Coppersmith doubling the money drawn by Apothecary when it finds Copper. I guess this is what you mean by "more than merely additive"? This doesn't mean there isn't an innate synergy between these cards and Copper.
Well yes, obviously Copper works with these cards, both of which have "Copper" in their play instructions. That's just what the cards straightforwardly do. Each gives a certain additive benefit to having more coppers in your deck.

With both together (Coppersmith+Apothecary) you get more than the merely additive value to keeping some coppers in your deck, now you're going so far as to be buying Dominate with just your starting coppers (!). One card is basically doubling the base benefit of the other card, in a multiplicative way. (this particular case is not only a synergy, it's a yuuuge synergy, of the sort we typically called a "combo")

For a more ordinary level of synergy, I think Hoard and some nice Alt VP like Harem or Nobles -- or even just Mill -- is a good example.
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Awaclus

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Re: Another awful thread about nothing
« Reply #32 on: November 09, 2017, 10:40:04 pm »
0

Well yes, obviously Copper works with these cards, both of which have "Copper" in their play instructions. That's just what the cards straightforwardly do.

By that logic, obviously Hoard works with alt-VP, which have the "Victory" card type. That's just what the card straightforwardly does.
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Gherald

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Re: Another awful thread about nothing
« Reply #33 on: November 09, 2017, 10:46:00 pm »
0

The synergy comes from allowing you to green earlier than you otherwise would, not from what the cards straightforwardly do.
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Awaclus

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Re: Another awful thread about nothing
« Reply #34 on: November 09, 2017, 11:01:51 pm »
0

The synergy comes from allowing you to green earlier than you otherwise would, not from what the cards straightforwardly do.

And the synergy between Coppersmith and Copper comes from allowing you to green later than you otherwise would, not from what the cards straightforwardly do.
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Gherald

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Re: Another awful thread about nothing
« Reply #35 on: November 09, 2017, 11:08:27 pm »
0

You're correct that by my logic Village does not synergize with many things! It's a very simple card that doesn't do much besides allow you to gain additional actions to spend, which is a basic additive benefit.
It's not a basic additive benefit. You can play 10 Villages and you haven't gained anything at all if that's all you play that turn.
The benefit is additive. You just don't have a way to spend it in your scenario, which has nothing to do with my point.
If you don't have a way to benefit from the benefit, there's no benefit.
There was a benefit, which expired at the end of your action phase (something, something edge case Diadem)

Playing a bunch of treasures gives a benefit, which expires at the end of your buy phase.

But thank you for raising and allowing us to clarify these basic game mechanics for you.
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Awaclus

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Re: Another awful thread about nothing
« Reply #36 on: November 09, 2017, 11:13:12 pm »
0

There was a benefit, which expired at the end of your action phase (something, something edge case Diadem)

No, there wasn't any benefit. You played ten Villages and they did nothing. You are well aware that being a Village idiot is not a functional strategy so stop pretending that it is.
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Gherald

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Re: Another awful thread about nothing
« Reply #37 on: November 09, 2017, 11:16:37 pm »
0

There was a benefit, which expired at the end of your action phase (something, something edge case Diadem)
No, there wasn't any benefit. You played ten Villages and they did nothing. You are well aware that being a Village idiot is not a functional strategy so stop pretending that it is.
You are the one who raised the village idiot scenario, not me. Each play of Village gives a +1 action benefit, which is a usable resource that expires before the end of your turn. I haven't said anything otherwise.
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Awaclus

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Re: Another awful thread about nothing
« Reply #38 on: November 09, 2017, 11:20:05 pm »
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There was a benefit, which expired at the end of your action phase (something, something edge case Diadem)
No, there wasn't any benefit. You played ten Villages and they did nothing. You are well aware that being a Village idiot is not a functional strategy so stop pretending that it is.
You are the one who raised the village idiot scenario, not me. Each play of Village gives a +1 action benefit, which is a usable resource that expires before the end of your turn. I haven't said anything otherwise.

You have said that it's an additive benefit on its own, which it isn't.
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Gherald

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Re: Another awful thread about nothing
« Reply #39 on: November 09, 2017, 11:23:51 pm »
0

You have said that it's an additive benefit on its own, which it isn't.
It is an additive benefit within your turn, just like plays that net + or +buys are additive benefits within your turn.
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Awaclus

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Re: Another awful thread about nothing
« Reply #40 on: November 09, 2017, 11:27:06 pm »
0

You have said that it's an additive benefit on its own, which it isn't.
It is an additive benefit within your turn, just like plays that net + or +buys are additive benefits within your turn.

But not on its own. It doesn't do anything on its own.
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Gherald

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Re: Another awful thread about nothing
« Reply #41 on: November 09, 2017, 11:56:50 pm »
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I never suggested playing a Village on its own. I did say that the beneficial +1 action effect of village can be quantified on its own. You have to use this benefit for something else before the end of your turn, otherwise it expires.
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Awaclus

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Re: Another awful thread about nothing
« Reply #42 on: November 10, 2017, 12:05:06 am »
0

I never suggested playing a Village on its own. I did say that the beneficial +1 action effect of village can be quantified on its own. You have to use this benefit for something else before the end of your turn, otherwise it expires.

Yeah, and in order to use it for something, you need to have terminal Actions. So it synergizes with terminal Actions.
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Gherald

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Re: Another awful thread about nothing
« Reply #43 on: November 10, 2017, 12:12:17 am »
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I mean, there are a lot of things that need something in order to do something with it. Coin needs remaining buys or debt, Merchant needs a Silver to be played, etcetera. Those are the basic game or card mechanics, and they're straightforward and additive. You're calling them a synergy, I'm not.
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markusin

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Re: Another awful thread about nothing
« Reply #44 on: November 10, 2017, 12:22:20 am »
0

I think I have a clearer picture of what you are getting at now. However, I would argue that Coppersmith and Apothecary are two cards that both synergize with Copper, and so naturally they synergize with each other as well since they want the same thing.Well

You say "Coppersmith+Apothecary synergize because together they combine to increase the value of having copper in your deck in a way that's specific to copper and more than merely additive." Well each of those cards alone  increase the value of having Coppers in your deck. Why then is it is ridiculous to state that Coppersmith synergizes with Copper, or that Apothecary synergizes with Copper? Okay, maybe I am fixated more on the "increase the value of having copper in your deck", and they both do that on their own.

Of course together they synergize, with Coppersmith doubling the money drawn by Apothecary when it finds Copper. I guess this is what you mean by "more than merely additive"? This doesn't mean there isn't an innate synergy between these cards and Copper.
Well yes, obviously Copper works with these cards, both of which have "Copper" in their play instructions. That's just what the cards straightforwardly do. Each gives a certain additive benefit to having more coppers in your deck.

With both together (Coppersmith+Apothecary) you get more than the merely additive value to keeping some coppers in your deck, now you're going so far as to be buying Dominate with just your starting coppers (!). One card is basically doubling the base benefit of the other card, in a multiplicative way. (this particular case is not only a synergy, it's a yuuuge synergy, of the sort we typically called a "combo")

For a more ordinary level of synergy, I think Hoard and some nice Alt VP like Harem or Nobles -- or even just Mill -- is a good example.

Okay, I see what you mean. I think the Apothecary / Coppersmith interaction fits nicely with your concept of "multiplicative benefit". I think many other examples of what you might call synergy are going to get muddy because their benefit is not as easy to quantity.

For example the Hoard / Mill synergy. I don't know if gaining a Gold while buying a Mill is supposed to be additive or multiplicative. I would call it a synergy because Hoard increases how "efficient" Mill is for you, because the Mill now comes with a Gold when I normally get the Mil for other purposes.

I still find it weird that Coppersmith doesn't synergize with Laboratory when Coppersmith is increasing the average value of the cards being drawn by Laboratory. No card that simply gives +$x changes the value of Laboratory draw like that. There is a multiplicative factor there, no? I can agree however that Coppersmith/Apothecary is much closer to being a "combo" than Coppersmith/Laboratory due to the power level of the interactions.
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Gherald

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Re: Another awful thread about nothing
« Reply #45 on: November 10, 2017, 12:50:45 am »
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No card that simply gives +$x changes the value of Laboratory draw like that.
I think I found secret chamber's +$1 per dead card to be useful in more games than Coppersmith was. (Vault and Storeroom are even nicer obviously, but they do more than simply give +$x)
For example the Hoard / Mill synergy. I don't know if gaining a Gold while buying a Mill is supposed to be additive or multiplicative. I would call it a synergy because Hoard increases how "efficient" Mill is for you, because the Mill now comes with a Gold when I normally get the Mil for other purposes.
Yeah true, I just wanted to give an example of a lighter synergy -- so we can see the difference from a full "combo". One might argue that, hey, Hoard is just doing what Hoard says it does, what's so special about combining it with Mill?

The reason I consider it a synergy is that with this combination (in the ordinary, non-"combo" sense) you can buy Hoard and VP cards sooner than you otherwise would, if Hoard and base VP cards were the only ones available to you.

With only base VP, you typically buy Hoard after a Gold or two, once you're ready to grab your first Province on the next cycle, right?

With Mill around, you can buy Hoard with your first $6, get a Mill+Gold or two on the following cycles, and then be ready for your first $8 Province+Gold soon after that. So Hoard+Mill are accelerating the early-green strategy, which I see as a synergy. Harem and Nobles are of course even nicer and I sometimes go double Hoard with those.
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O

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Re: Another awful thread about nothing
« Reply #46 on: November 10, 2017, 04:09:14 am »
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You have said that it's an additive benefit on its own, which it isn't.
It is an additive benefit within your turn, just like plays that net + or +buys are additive benefits within your turn.

But not on its own. It doesn't do anything on its own.

It cycles your deck on it's own! With 10 villages you get 10x the cycling power of one village!

I'm sorry I had to
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Awaclus

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Re: Another awful thread about nothing
« Reply #47 on: November 10, 2017, 04:19:14 am »
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With only base VP, you typically buy Hoard after a Gold or two, once you're ready to grab your first Province on the next cycle, right?

With Mill around, you can buy Hoard with your first $6, get a Mill+Gold or two on the following cycles, and then be ready for your first $8 Province+Gold soon after that. So Hoard+Mill are accelerating the early-green strategy, which I see as a synergy.

Similarly, without any terminal Actions, you typically don't buy any Villages at all.

With Smithy around, you can buy Villages and build an engine out of them, so Village+Smithy are enabling the engine strategy. Why don't you see that as a synergy?
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Re: Another awful thread about nothing
« Reply #48 on: November 10, 2017, 04:31:25 am »
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Basically, I think that almost all cards have some synergy with almost all other cards. It can be positive, negative, or both. There's almost always reason why you want both in the same deck or there's a reason why you want to avoid having both in the same deck. It can just be something like "they do very similar things so they're redundant" or "they do very similar things so the deck that wants that thing probably wants both cards in it". For instance, Forager has both synergy and anti-synergy with itself for exactly those reasons, and it's important to understand when the fact that you're playing an engine makes you want to buy two Foragers and when the redundancy makes you only want to buy one.
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Re: Another awful thread about nothing
« Reply #49 on: November 10, 2017, 07:46:43 am »
+9

I clicked on the thread for the title and was not disappointed.
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