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Author Topic: Asking for Undo  (Read 1465 times)

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thopol

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Asking for Undo
« on: November 08, 2017, 07:29:28 am »
+1

Do you find it poor manners to be denied an undo?  There are situations where it is an obvious mistake, such as pressing the end turn button instead of the end actions button.

I have gotten back into the game recently since I left at the end of the iso days.  I haven't had problems with impolite players on .games until today when I had two players who refused undos.  I am fully aware that I might be the asshole by blocking those people, but I'm not aware of the conventions.  Is that not an asshole move to refuse a quick undo?  I'm happy to follow the norms of the community, no matter how cutthroat it is or not, but I want to know how people stand on refusing an undo.  Am I doing these players wrong by resigning and blocking them?  Is it normal to refuse an undo and still be someone people want to play with?
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ednever

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Re: Asking for Undo
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2017, 07:46:13 am »
+7

I generally accept all undos. Only exception was a guy who was playing a wishing well and then asking for undo when he didn't get what he wished for.

I generally only ask for an undo when I made a mistake (usually a misclick, but sometimes just playing too fast) that doesn't reveal any new information). If I am refused the undo, I block them at the end of the game. I don't think they are bad people, I just would rather not play them again. Life is too short.

The nice thing about the system is there doesn't need to be a rule or a convention everyone follows. People can choose to play how they want and find others like them.

The only place that falls down are people who rage quit without resigning or slow roll. I often lose patience in those situations and they get to "win" the game. Wish there was a better solution there.
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Lekkit

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Re: Asking for Undo
« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2017, 07:52:59 am »
+5

Unless there's a very good reason, I grant undo requests as long as there were no new information gained. Such as cards drawn, Mountebanks played or other stuff.

However, even if new information was gained, I sometimes grant the requests, depending on the situation. Obvious missclicks or missing to call cards from the tavern mat at the start of the turn is stuff I grant undos for. Generally people don't request undos in other cases.

I don't think there's any rules or conventions. I just want to play to have fun. And it's often more fun for everyone if you're allowed to make mistakes.
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Chris is me

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Re: Asking for Undo
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2017, 09:16:17 am »
+1

I blacklist people who deny no-information undos. I don’t blacklist people who deny undos that could have revealed information, because I understand that more, even if I try to explain how the information didn’t influence my decision, etc.

It’s nothing personal, I just don’t want to play again with people who do that.
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Polk5440

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Re: Asking for Undo
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2017, 01:59:39 pm »
0

I will grant undos related to misplays and obvious mistakes because currently that is the work-around for the unintuitive and clunky UI. If someone asks for an undo when it's not an obvious misplay (especially if it's multiple steps back), I will ask "why?" before considering granting.

To your specific questions:
Do you find it poor manners to be denied an undo? Is that not an asshole move to refuse a quick undo? No. In rated games denying is more competitive and allowing is more friendly. Maybe in practice games?
Am I doing these players wrong by resigning and blocking them?  No. Just don't leave and make them wait for a time out.
Is it normal to refuse an undo and still be someone people want to play with? Yes, I think? Only Stef would have the data on that.

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Jack Rudd

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Re: Asking for Undo
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2017, 02:32:32 pm »
+1

Nearly always grant, very rarely ask.
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Re: Asking for Undo
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2017, 04:26:35 pm »
+2

Unless there's a very good reason, I grant undo requests as long as there were no new information gained. Such as cards drawn, Mountebanks played or other stuff.

However, even if new information was gained, I sometimes grant the requests, depending on the situation. Obvious missclicks or missing to call cards from the tavern mat at the start of the turn is stuff I grant undos for. Generally people don't request undos in other cases.

I don't think there's any rules or conventions. I just want to play to have fun. And it's often more fun for everyone if you're allowed to make mistakes.

This pretty much sums up my feelings on the matter. There are many cases where I grant Undos even if new information was revealed -- in fact, I can't think of a case where someone has requested an Undo that I thought was unreasonable. YMMV.

With that said, I wish the system displayed some information about what the Undo request was undoing. It's often clear, but not always.
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Re: Asking for Undo
« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2017, 04:39:17 pm »
0

I resign and blacklist if I get denied a no-information undo.
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Re: Asking for Undo
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2017, 04:55:32 pm »
+4

The game really needs to (eventually) implement no-ask undos for instances when no new information has been revealed.

And in my perfect world, it would then just disallow even asking for an undo in other instances for rated games.
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Asking for Undo
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2017, 05:01:09 pm »
+1

And in my perfect world, it would then just disallow even asking for an undo in other instances for rated games.

Your perfect world sucks!
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Re: Asking for Undo
« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2017, 05:02:27 pm »
0

And in my perfect world, it would then just disallow even asking for an undo in other instances for rated games.

Your perfect world sucks!

Why even. You enjoy having to either deny requested undos when the other player might be trying to cheat, or granting them?
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Asking for Undo
« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2017, 05:03:17 pm »
+8

And in my perfect world, it would then just disallow even asking for an undo in other instances for rated games.

Your perfect world sucks!

Why even.

If I understand the question, because it was a fun sentence to write.

edit: I did not understand the question!

With the additional detail from your edit, I enjoy having people not feel bad about clicking some card and immediately regretting it (even if some info was gained), and I don't worry about people cheating because life's too short.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2017, 05:05:06 pm by Mic Qsenoch »
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Re: Asking for Undo
« Reply #12 on: November 08, 2017, 05:03:40 pm »
0

The game really needs to (eventually) implement no-ask undos for instances when no new information has been revealed.

And in my perfect world, it would then just disallow even asking for an undo in other instances for rated games.

I agree with this but I don't feel very strongly about the latter statement. Like, I think it's more important that unrated and rated games work the same way in that regard, and I don't care at all whether or not it's allowed in unrated.
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Re: Asking for Undo
« Reply #13 on: November 08, 2017, 05:06:23 pm »
+5

It should definitely be possible to request undos when information is revealed.  A common mistake is to play an action card (usually a cantrip) and then remember that you wanted to call a reserve from your tavern mat.  This, and other honest mistakes, should be undoable.
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Re: Asking for Undo
« Reply #14 on: November 08, 2017, 05:07:56 pm »
+4

It should definitely be possible to request undos when information is revealed.  A common mistake is to play an action card (usually a cantrip) and then remember that you wanted to call a reserve from your tavern mat.  This, and other honest mistakes, should be undoable.

I put it to you that—instead of that—the Tavern mat prompts should be much more visible, rather than being hidden away in the log.
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Asking for Undo
« Reply #15 on: November 08, 2017, 05:10:20 pm »
+5

It should definitely be possible to request undos when information is revealed.  A common mistake is to play an action card (usually a cantrip) and then remember that you wanted to call a reserve from your tavern mat.  This, and other honest mistakes, should be undoable.

I put it to you that—instead of that—the Tavern mat prompts should be much more visible, rather than being hidden away in the log.

Look, we don't have to go past Smithy + Village to find a misclick that occurs with some regularity and is enough for me to want undos-even-with-info-reveal forever.

edit: and there are probably some interface things to be done to help in this case too, I know, but somehow I don't believe interface can solve all of the little mistakes people make. It would be great to someday in the future be proven wrong there.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2017, 05:13:00 pm by Mic Qsenoch »
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Re: Asking for Undo
« Reply #16 on: November 08, 2017, 05:18:19 pm »
+1

The game really needs to (eventually) implement no-ask undos for instances when no new information has been revealed.

And in my perfect world, it would then just disallow even asking for an undo in other instances for rated games.

I disagree with the second part of this. In my experience, people aren't trying to cheat through Undo, and I hate the idea of punishing people for interface mistakes. Maybe I would feel differently had I encountered an Undo-abuser.

I could see having a "Tournament mode" that is much more strict in this regard; but, at least in my experience, Rated games would be less enjoyable if they automatically rejected a whole sub-category of reasonable Undo requests.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Asking for Undo
« Reply #17 on: November 08, 2017, 05:19:49 pm »
+1

It should definitely be possible to request undos when information is revealed.  A common mistake is to play an action card (usually a cantrip) and then remember that you wanted to call a reserve from your tavern mat.  This, and other honest mistakes, should be undoable.

I put it to you that—instead of that—the Tavern mat prompts should be much more visible, rather than being hidden away in the log.

Look, we don't have to go past Smithy + Village to find a misclick that occurs with some regularity and is enough for me to want undos-even-with-info-reveal forever.

edit: and there are probably some interface things to be done to help in this case too, I know, but somehow I don't believe interface can solve all of the little mistakes people make. It would be great to someday in the future be proven wrong there.

I think that not having all these hurt feelings and blacklistings and people making these threads about undo etiquette is a much greater good than completely eliminating misclicks. So I don't care at all that no interface can completely eliminate misclicks. Let's try to minimize them, yes. But I don't think that's the number one most important thing.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2017, 05:24:37 pm by LastFootnote »
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Cave-o-sapien

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Re: Asking for Undo
« Reply #18 on: November 08, 2017, 05:22:32 pm »
0

I think that not having all these hurt feelings and blacklistings and people making these threads about undo etiquette is a much greater good that completely eliminating misclicks.

I admit I hadn't really considered this from  the "greater good" perspective. I suspect the user experience on this one varies quite a bit depending on what slice of the player population you're frequently playing against.
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aku_chi

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Re: Asking for Undo
« Reply #19 on: November 08, 2017, 05:39:31 pm »
+5

Let me make a related point: whether information was revealed is not the only thing that I care about when granting an undo.  I care about the level of commitment, or something.

Suppose my opponent draws his deck and can make plays to end the game on a win.  Instead, my opponent plays out actions and treasures and makes a buy or two - then realizes the missed win opportunity.  I would be more reluctant to grant an undo back to the drawn deck state (even though no new information was revealed) than I would be to grant an undo when my opponent plays a
drawing action card and immediately recognizes that they wanted to play another action card first.  I wouldn't mind if the former style of undo was always permissible, but it would be jarring to allow that but completely disallow more innocuous undos that happened to reveal some information.

Oh, another example of an innocuous information-gaining undo that I've granted numerous times: my opponent make one or more buys, but thought they had more buys than they did - and so ends their buy phase floating a bunch of money.  They immediately see their next hand, but I'm happy to grant an undo to allow them to change their buy(s).
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O

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Re: Asking for Undo
« Reply #20 on: November 08, 2017, 06:35:38 pm »
+5

It should definitely be possible to request undos when information is revealed.  A common mistake is to play an action card (usually a cantrip) and then remember that you wanted to call a reserve from your tavern mat.  This, and other honest mistakes, should be undoable.

I put it to you that—instead of that—the Tavern mat prompts should be much more visible, rather than being hidden away in the log.

Look, we don't have to go past Smithy + Village to find a misclick that occurs with some regularity and is enough for me to want undos-even-with-info-reveal forever.

edit: and there are probably some interface things to be done to help in this case too, I know, but somehow I don't believe interface can solve all of the little mistakes people make. It would be great to someday in the future be proven wrong there.

I think that not having all these hurt feelings and blacklistings and people making these threads about undo etiquette is a much greater good than completely eliminating misclicks. So I don't care at all that no interface can completely eliminate misclicks. Let's try to minimize them, yes. But I don't think that's the number one most important thing.

I think the +50% average game time people would bring into ranked being paranoid about miss-clicks is far more harmful than any of that. People have a right to play reasonably slowly, of course, but there's no reason to structurally induce it.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2017, 06:37:16 pm by O »
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chipperMDW

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Re: Asking for Undo
« Reply #21 on: November 08, 2017, 06:49:21 pm »
+2

The game really needs to (eventually) implement no-ask undos for instances when no new information has been revealed.

I was going to suggest just that earlier. I would specify, though, that a no-ask undo should be allowed for instances when no new information has been revealed to the person seeking to undo. For example, if I play Poacher and don't realize a pile is empty, I might click on a card attempting to play it and end up discarding it. New information has been revealed (my opponent sees the card I discarded), but I should still be able to roll back to the point of the discard decision (but not to before I played Poacher) without needing consent from my opponent.

I'll also point out that it would even be possible for the server to defer updating your opponents' clients about the results of a string of your decisions while you're within the "no-refusal undo window" (or until it needs input from other players). Using the same Poacher example, the server wouldn't even need to update my opponent in real time about the identity of the card I discarded, or even the fact that I discarded anything yet, because it would still be within the "no-refusal undo window." As soon as I, say, play a cantrip and draw a card, then I can no longer get a no-refusal undo, so the server should make sure the opponent sees the discard and the new event at that time. But that would prevent the situation of watching your opponent play out a sequence of non-information-gaining actions only to go back and undo them and then you being confused about what happened and what didn't. I'm not sure if that's a desirable feature, but it should be possible.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2017, 07:30:44 pm by chipperMDW »
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Re: Asking for Undo
« Reply #22 on: November 08, 2017, 06:53:15 pm »
+2

I can (barely) understand that some people prefer to just play fast, not ask for undos, and just keep going if someone makes a mistake. Generally though, I just prefer not to play with those people. At the end of the day, we're here to play a game, not to farm rating off of me when I accidentally play my coppers and want to buy a Grand Market.
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Re: Asking for Undo
« Reply #23 on: November 08, 2017, 06:56:02 pm »
+2

I blacklist everyone who doesn't grant basic undos after 1 game. I'm not sure whether I consider it BM in principle (though I have snapped at least once before)... the thing is that having undos around at all makes you play less carefully (which is a good thing, it goes down from way-too-carefully-which-is-painfully-slow), so denying them without saying you will up-front is just setting up for a stupid situation to happen.

But this is all secondary. If you want to play with undos, I highly, highly advise blacklisting everyone who doesn't grant them, regardless of whehter you think it's BM. There is no reason to put up with that if you can avoid it, and there is zero reason to feel guilty or bad about doing so.

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Re: Asking for Undo
« Reply #24 on: November 08, 2017, 07:07:55 pm »
+1

I am willing to bet money on "automatic undo's for non-information-revealing misplays" never becoming a feature.
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Re: Asking for Undo
« Reply #25 on: November 08, 2017, 07:22:31 pm »
+8

Stef should make a huge bet with you and then implement the feature and win the bet.
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Re: Asking for Undo
« Reply #26 on: November 08, 2017, 08:11:09 pm »
0

I am willing to bet money on "automatic undo's for non-information-revealing misplays" never becoming a feature.

If the wager is high enough, I bet Stef would take you up on that.

EDIT: Gosh dang it ninja'd by a post on page 2.
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Re: Asking for Undo
« Reply #27 on: November 08, 2017, 08:15:14 pm »
+3

I am willing to bet money on "automatic undo's for non-information-revealing misplays" never becoming a feature.

If the wager is high enough, I bet Stef would take you up on that.

EDIT: Gosh dang it ninja'd by a post on page 2.

Only if you do 25 posts per page not the optimal 50 posts per page.
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Re: Asking for Undo
« Reply #28 on: November 09, 2017, 01:07:09 am »
+2

Only if you do 25 posts per page not the optimal 50 posts per page.

Why not 2.71828...?
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Re: Asking for Undo
« Reply #29 on: November 09, 2017, 01:18:20 am »
+10

Only if you do 25 posts per page not the optimal 50 posts per page.

Why not 2.71828...?

That would just be irrational.
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Chris is me

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Re: Asking for Undo
« Reply #30 on: November 09, 2017, 07:10:22 am »
+6

It should definitely be possible to request undos when information is revealed.  A common mistake is to play an action card (usually a cantrip) and then remember that you wanted to call a reserve from your tavern mat.  This, and other honest mistakes, should be undoable.

I put it to you that—instead of that—the Tavern mat prompts should be much more visible, rather than being hidden away in the log.

Look, we don't have to go past Smithy + Village to find a misclick that occurs with some regularity and is enough for me to want undos-even-with-info-reveal forever.

edit: and there are probably some interface things to be done to help in this case too, I know, but somehow I don't believe interface can solve all of the little mistakes people make. It would be great to someday in the future be proven wrong there.

I think that not having all these hurt feelings and blacklistings and people making these threads about undo etiquette is a much greater good than completely eliminating misclicks.

It’s just not, though.

Let’s not make the game shittier because some shitty people whine about it, PLEASE.

Let us play the game we want to play. The game where you can casually undo things with the consent of your opponent. We don’t ruin Dominion Online with an aggressive timer just because people whine about “playing slow” when you have to take 15 seconds to think about something, why should this be any different?
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Re: Asking for Undo
« Reply #31 on: November 09, 2017, 07:13:05 am »
+1

Let’s not make the game shittier

But it's already ShiT-tier.
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Re: Asking for Undo
« Reply #32 on: November 09, 2017, 08:20:37 am »
+1

I am willing to bet money on "automatic undo's for non-information-revealing misplays" never becoming a feature.

If the wager is high enough, I bet Stef would take you up on that.

EDIT: Gosh dang it ninja'd by a post on page 2.

Only if you do 25 posts per page not the optimal 50 posts per page.

Optimal for purposes that benefit from more posts on a page, but less optimal for purposes that benefit from less.

Example: Surfing fan card threads on mobile.

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Re: Asking for Undo
« Reply #33 on: November 10, 2017, 01:12:01 am »
+6

Kinda off topic -- more of a question about undo implementation -- but...

If I (1) do something that causes a shuffle, then (2) undo to before the shuffle, then (3) cause the shuffle to happen again, does the second shuffle shuffle the cards the same way as the first? And if so, what things that I do between (2) and (3) changes it? E.g. I imagine gaining a card completely changes the shuffle (but not sure), whereas taking a coin token or whatever would not affect it.
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Re: Asking for Undo
« Reply #34 on: November 10, 2017, 01:56:10 am »
0

In my experience the shuffle becomes completly new generated.
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Re: Asking for Undo
« Reply #35 on: November 10, 2017, 04:17:32 am »
+13

Kinda off topic -- more of a question about undo implementation -- but...

If I (1) do something that causes a shuffle, then (2) undo to before the shuffle, then (3) cause the shuffle to happen again, does the second shuffle shuffle the cards the same way as the first? And if so, what things that I do between (2) and (3) changes it? E.g. I imagine gaining a card completely changes the shuffle (but not sure), whereas taking a coin token or whatever would not affect it.

The game (currently) uses 1 random number generator instance. It's not used a lot in dominion; mostly for shuffling.

Suppose you buy a Silver, end your turn, shuffle | undo, buy a village, end your turn, shuffle
-> the village will just take the place of the silver, the rest of the shuffle will be identical.

Suppose you buy a Silver, end your turn, shuffle | undo, buy a Port, gain another Port, end your turn, shuffle
-> the number of cards in the shuffle has changed. This will lead to a completely new shuffle.

Suppose you buy a Silver, end your turn, shuffle | undo, buy a Noble Brigand, give your opponent a Copper, end your turn, shuffle
-> the Noble Brigand will just take the place of the silver, the rest of the shuffle will be identical.

Suppose you buy a Silver, end your turn, shuffle | undo, buy a Noble Brigand, give your opponent a Copper and make them shuffle, end your turn, shuffle
-> the random numbers that were supposed to determine your shuffle now determine your opponents; yours comes after and will be completely new.
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RTT

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Re: Asking for Undo
« Reply #36 on: November 10, 2017, 11:33:08 am »
+1

That doesnt comply with that one game where i played militia and ended my turn seeing a hand with Hermit 3C 1 Estate.

My Opponent then asked if he could undo and discard other card to millitia wich i granted. My new Hand was then Hermit and 4 Coppers.
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Re: Asking for Undo
« Reply #37 on: November 10, 2017, 12:21:28 pm »
+5

That doesnt comply with that one game where i played militia and ended my turn seeing a hand with Hermit 3C 1 Estate.

My Opponent then asked if he could undo and discard other card to millitia wich i granted. My new Hand was then Hermit and 4 Coppers.

My guess is something else was different too, probably something you thought of as unimportant.
I could even be the order you played your treasures in. They would be cleaned up in a different order, and your shuffling would start differently.
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Re: Asking for Undo
« Reply #38 on: November 13, 2017, 11:33:20 am »
0

When I ask for an undo by clicking on the link for it, nothing happens.  Are there setting related to this, like does my opponent have an "auto-deny" set or something?
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Re: Asking for Undo
« Reply #39 on: November 13, 2017, 11:40:47 pm »
+1

Do you find it poor manners to be denied an undo?  There are situations where it is an obvious mistake, such as pressing the end turn button instead of the end actions button.

I have gotten back into the game recently since I left at the end of the iso days.  I haven't had problems with impolite players on .games until today when I had two players who refused undos.  I am fully aware that I might be the asshole by blocking those people, but I'm not aware of the conventions.  Is that not an asshole move to refuse a quick undo?  I'm happy to follow the norms of the community, no matter how cutthroat it is or not, but I want to know how people stand on refusing an undo.  Am I doing these players wrong by resigning and blocking them?  Is it normal to refuse an undo and still be someone people want to play with?

I can see games where I grant Undo even with them gleaming knowledge.  Some of the best and most fun games I've played were ones where I lost.
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Re: Asking for Undo
« Reply #40 on: November 14, 2017, 12:15:20 am »
+2

Do you find it poor manners to be denied an undo?  There are situations where it is an obvious mistake, such as pressing the end turn button instead of the end actions button.

I have gotten back into the game recently since I left at the end of the iso days.  I haven't had problems with impolite players on .games until today when I had two players who refused undos.  I am fully aware that I might be the asshole by blocking those people, but I'm not aware of the conventions.  Is that not an asshole move to refuse a quick undo?  I'm happy to follow the norms of the community, no matter how cutthroat it is or not, but I want to know how people stand on refusing an undo.  Am I doing these players wrong by resigning and blocking them?  Is it normal to refuse an undo and still be someone people want to play with?

I can see games where I grant Undo even with them gleaming knowledge.  Some of the best and most fun games I've played were ones where I lost.
If I didn't have fun in games where I lost, I would have never bought 10 boxes full of Dominion cards.
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Asper

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Re: Asking for Undo
« Reply #41 on: November 14, 2017, 06:06:20 am »
0

I recently ended my buy phase with 7$ and two buys left. I didn't ask for undo. On the other hand, it was one of the few games where it was clear I was going to win.

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Re: Asking for Undo
« Reply #42 on: November 14, 2017, 12:56:30 pm »
0

I recently ended my buy phase with 7$ and two buys left. I didn't ask for undo. On the other hand, it was one of the few games where it was clear I was going to win.
Edge case: Estates and Duchies were gone, it was a sure thing that you wouldn't be able to shuffle again this game, and Wall was in the game.
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