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Author Topic: Is it okay to buy Possession?  (Read 4374 times)

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Asper

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Re: Is it okay to buy Possession?
« Reply #50 on: November 11, 2017, 06:48:28 am »
+4

Personally, I think Alchemy wouldn't be as horribly received if it had better cards. That looks like a truism at first, but the point is that the potion mechanic, while not necessarily universally loved, still has lots of fans. But Alchemy is a tiny expansion, and of that expansion, at least two cards are so weak they are basically not there, one is Possession, and Scrying Pool has all that makes Spy bad, just on a card that's useful enough to be played often. If the set had more than just a few cards that are actually fun to play with, people wouldn't dislike it as much.

But yeah, we'll never know. I know I wouldn't bet money on Alchemy second edition.

crj

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Re: Is it okay to buy Possession?
« Reply #51 on: November 11, 2017, 10:30:28 am »
0

Trouble is, Alchemy also has some awesome-looking cards.

I'd love to play it some more, but we don't have the expansion where I usually play, and people aren't keen.

This is in part because of that one time player A Possessed player B and "for fun" had them play King's Court - Possession. Needless to say, B then won by Possessing C three times over, which kinda threw the game. Nobody seemed very keen after that. )-8
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Accatitippi

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Re: Is it okay to buy Possession?
« Reply #52 on: November 11, 2017, 11:58:04 am »
+1

Personally, I think Alchemy wouldn't be as horribly received if it had better cards. That looks like a truism at first, but the point is that the potion mechanic, while not necessarily universally loved, still has lots of fans. But Alchemy is a tiny expansion, and of that expansion, at least two cards are so weak they are basically not there, one is Possession, and Scrying Pool has all that makes Spy bad, just on a card that's useful enough to be played often. If the set had more than just a few cards that are actually fun to play with, people wouldn't dislike it as much.

But yeah, we'll never know. I know I wouldn't bet money on Alchemy second edition.

I agree wholeheartedly. And it's sad because some of Alchemy's cards are great, but the bad cards have a net negative effect on the expansion's perception.
I suspect that Alchemy without Possession, PS, and Transmute would have made a more popular product than Alchemy.
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FemurLemur

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Re: Is it okay to buy Possession?
« Reply #53 on: November 11, 2017, 03:01:33 pm »
+1

I don't like the idea of 1 card being given special "sorta-banned" rules, yet also only for online play. If the card is unfun and the majority of people just don't like it, just errata it out of existence like what happened with Scout, Great Hall, etc. People can still play with those cards at home if they want, nothing's stopping them.

If it's still an official Dominion card that exists for all official purposes, then having it be the one and only card that can't show up in full random online games makes online games more different from IRL play than it has to be, and gives it a special status that no other card in the game has.
IRL you can simply not put out cards you don't like. The online version is moving in the direction of matching that, being more like the physical version, not less. The idea is to only allow 5 cards banned, rather than as many as you want, because if you can ban lots of cards you can game the system (you can game the system with just 5 bans but it won't amount to much).

We don't have this feature yet (due to it needing an interface) and Possession is the card most likely to make many banned lists. People are agreeing not to play with it and having 9-card kingdoms and that makes the game less fun. So.

Again you can still play with Possession online by manually adding it to your game. It's not gone, it just doesn't get picked out for you.

As somebody who was originally skeptical of this idea, I've come around to seeing it as a good thing. Even people who game it are at best gaming 10 cards* out of existence (5 of which would be the least popular cards, and 5 of which are the ones they suck the most with- if you're lucky the 5 most hated cards are also among your 10 worst cards). You're probably not going to become the highest rated player just by ditching the 5-10 cards you're the worst with. Plus it's not like you're the only player given that luxury. If we really wanted, we could all attempt to game the system to our cold little hearts content until the system is so chaotic and unanalyzable that it doesn't matter. Meanwhile everyone else is having a more pleasant experience, and the players who just focus on playing the game and getting better will probably actually do better than if they worried about calculating optimal bans.

Plus, Masquerade turns are too freaking slow relative to their fun factor online, so I'm kinda glad I can ban that...

*Obviously in reality the real numbers are much more complicated, because it'll be more like "You are x% likely to see card A, y% likely to see card B, etc." but let's not split hairs here. At best you guarantee 10 cards you never play with by gaming the system.
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FemurLemur

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Re: Is it okay to buy Possession?
« Reply #54 on: November 11, 2017, 03:28:10 pm »
+1

Personally, I think Alchemy wouldn't be as horribly received if it had better cards. That looks like a truism at first, but the point is that the potion mechanic, while not necessarily universally loved, still has lots of fans. But Alchemy is a tiny expansion, and of that expansion, at least two cards are so weak they are basically not there, one is Possession, and Scrying Pool has all that makes Spy bad, just on a card that's useful enough to be played often. If the set had more than just a few cards that are actually fun to play with, people wouldn't dislike it as much.

But yeah, we'll never know. I know I wouldn't bet money on Alchemy second edition.

I agree.

Me personally, I don't care about the strength of Alchemy cards so much as I care about there not being many of them. For a 2nd type of currency, there's really very few cards that use it, and the ratio shrinks with every expansion (for obvious reasons). At the time of release, about 10% of released cards used Potions, and I think 15%-25% might be best for a secondary currency. Today, about 3% of cards use Potions. The problem is that buying that potion has to really be worth it, but you don't want the Potion costing cards to be so good that the Potion becomes an auto-buy. So the interesting decisions seem to come from having 2 or 3 Alchemy cards out. Obviously, as Donald X has pointed out many times, you could just houserule it so that if an Alchemy card comes out then you put out at least one more. But you know, at this point in time we've seen all of those combinations so many times.

Of course, we all know the history of how Alchemy got this way, with it originally being the last big expansion planned and then getting split in half. No use crying over spilled milk. I mentioned that only about 3% of cards today use Potions, but at the same time I can't fault Donald X for that. Why would you release more cards from the least popular expansion when you have plenty of fun new ideas that don't have that negative association? Especially given that- up until Adventures- there was a lot of hesitation to do anything resembling an "expansion to the expansion".

All I can say is that I definitely wouldn't want an Alchemy 2nd Edition. If there were ever going to be anything else Alchemy related, I would want it to be a new expansion of cards using Potions. A 2nd Edition wouldn't fix all of the issues in my opinion.

Not that I'm betting my money on that either. But I'd be happy if it existed.
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enfynet

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Re: Is it okay to buy Possession?
« Reply #55 on: November 11, 2017, 04:16:18 pm »
0

I wonder how broken it would be to replace a Copper with a Potion if Alchemy cards are out? You aren't at risk of missing the shuffle that way.
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drsteelhammer

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Re: Is it okay to buy Possession?
« Reply #56 on: November 11, 2017, 04:27:24 pm »
+8

I wonder how broken it would be to replace a Copper with a Potion if Alchemy cards are out? You aren't at risk of missing the shuffle that way.

Pretty bad/broken/awful.

1) It kills the potion mechanic (potion is an opportunity cost, the strength of the potion cards revolve around having to invest into potion first, otherwise they'd be super strong)

2) Sometimes you want Potions late, and it's irritating why you would have to start with them in those games (aka vineyard,golem, posssession)

3) Hitting 3 Potion is already annoying on the second shuffle, but imagine one player getting a Familiar and one player getting nothing instead.
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Accatitippi

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Re: Is it okay to buy Possession?
« Reply #57 on: November 11, 2017, 06:34:15 pm »
+1

I agree.

Me personally, I don't care about the strength of Alchemy cards so much as I care about there not being many of them. For a 2nd type of currency, there's really very few cards that use it, and the ratio shrinks with every expansion (for obvious reasons).
[...]

I don't know. I'm not bothered that there is only one card that uses Urchin as secundary currency. Or Hermit, or Devil's Workshop, or Province (ok, it's five, but you know what I mean), or Curses.

Donald has moved away from the idea of a common secondary currency and is doing more and more "upgrade" cards, which fill a very similar niche, are more exciting and probably also allow more flexibility in design.
Still, I sort of wish that he'd clean up the whole Potion thing. Not sure what it would take, but even just a couple of fixes and replacements would help make Alchemy feel more like a part of modern Dominion and less like the dull disowned expansion that you should buy last.

#aNewHomeForAlchemist
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FemurLemur

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Re: Is it okay to buy Possession?
« Reply #58 on: November 11, 2017, 07:53:53 pm »
0

I agree.

Me personally, I don't care about the strength of Alchemy cards so much as I care about there not being many of them. For a 2nd type of currency, there's really very few cards that use it, and the ratio shrinks with every expansion (for obvious reasons).
[...]
I don't know. I'm not bothered that there is only one card that uses Urchin as secundary currency. Or Hermit, or Devil's Workshop, or Province (ok, it's five, but you know what I mean), or Curses.

I'm not really sure what you're saying. Could you please clarify?
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Gherald

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Re: Is it okay to buy Possession?
« Reply #59 on: November 11, 2017, 08:11:45 pm »
+2

Mercenary costs one Urchin trash
Madman costs one Hermit trash
Imp costs a Devil's Workshop play (or an Exorcist trashing a 3+ cost)
Prizes cost a Province discard
Quest costs 2 Curses

--
I don't know why people dislike Alchemy so much... Possession aside, Familiar should cost 2P but that's about it.
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Asper

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Re: Is it okay to buy Possession?
« Reply #60 on: November 11, 2017, 08:16:34 pm »
+1

Mercenary costs one Urchin trash
Madman costs one Hermit trash
Imp costs a Devil's Workshop play (or an Exorcist trashing a 3+ cost)
Prizes cost a Province discard
Quest costs 2 Curses

--
I don't know why people dislike Alchemy so much... Possession aside, Familiar should cost 2P but that's about it.

Have you ever played a 2-hour IRL Scrying Pool game or tried to make a feasible strategy out of Transmute?

Gherald

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Re: Is it okay to buy Possession?
« Reply #61 on: November 11, 2017, 10:04:46 pm »
0

I played Transmute+Bonfire today and won easily.

IRL Scrying Pool games are simple enough to avoid--though in some ways faster because you can tell people to just "discard if it's an action"
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popsofctown

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Re: Is it okay to buy Possession?
« Reply #62 on: November 11, 2017, 10:40:37 pm »
0

I just think Scrying Pool isn't that interesting.  I don't think the 0-1 Silver call successfully sorts the wheat from the chaff in player skill.
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enfynet

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Re: Is it okay to buy Possession?
« Reply #63 on: November 12, 2017, 12:19:12 am »
0

I wonder how broken it would be to replace a Copper with a Potion if Alchemy cards are out? You aren't at risk of missing the shuffle that way.

Pretty bad/broken/awful.

1) It kills the potion mechanic (potion is an opportunity cost, the strength of the potion cards revolve around having to invest into potion first, otherwise they'd be super strong)

2) Sometimes you want Potions late, and it's irritating why you would have to start with them in those games (aka vineyard,golem, posssession)

3) Hitting 3 Potion is already annoying on the second shuffle, but imagine one player getting a Familiar and one player getting nothing instead.
I guess I was figuring the starting deck would be EEECCCCCCP, and like Shelters or Heirlooms the Potion would not be a supply pile. Now your opening hands can get those Potion cost cards without worrying about missing that shuffle. You don't pay the opportunity cost on a Buy, but you are stuck with it unless you trash it. I'm going to try it next time Potion cards come up, just because I want to see how much it affects those first few turns.

1. So I agree with this, they would be strong, but its equal for everyone. Maybe this version of Potion would be like Cursed Gold, where you gain a curse by playing it...

2. It's irritating to start with Estates and Copper, too right?

3. It really just deflects that randomness to the opening hands instead of that first shuffle. Starting hands would be 2/4P, 3/3P, 4/2P, 5/1P instead of the 3/4, 2/5 of a non-Potion game.
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CPiGuy

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Re: Is it okay to buy Possession?
« Reply #64 on: November 12, 2017, 05:38:58 pm »
0

Donald just asked me to temporarily ban possession until we get the banned cards feature up.
I agreed to do that and will release it in a day or two.

I guess that settles this threads question.

Just curious, will this feature be part of your previously announced Thursday update, since you haven't implemented it yet?
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markus

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Re: Is it okay to buy Possession?
« Reply #65 on: November 13, 2017, 03:05:29 am »
0

Donald just asked me to temporarily ban possession until we get the banned cards feature up.
I agreed to do that and will release it in a day or two.

I guess that settles this threads question.

Just curious, will this feature be part of your previously announced Thursday update, since you haven't implemented it yet?

The Possession ban is already implemented.
http://forum.shuffleit.nl/index.php?topic=604.msg10646#msg10646
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CPiGuy

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Re: Is it okay to buy Possession?
« Reply #66 on: November 13, 2017, 12:30:39 pm »
0

Donald just asked me to temporarily ban possession until we get the banned cards feature up.
I agreed to do that and will release it in a day or two.

I guess that settles this threads question.

Just curious, will this feature be part of your previously announced Thursday update, since you haven't implemented it yet?

The Possession ban is already implemented.
http://forum.shuffleit.nl/index.php?topic=604.msg10646#msg10646

I was referring to the banned cards feature.
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Accatitippi

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Re: Is it okay to buy Possession?
« Reply #67 on: November 13, 2017, 12:40:02 pm »
0

Donald just asked me to temporarily ban possession until we get the banned cards feature up.
I agreed to do that and will release it in a day or two.

I guess that settles this threads question.

Just curious, will this feature be part of your previously announced Thursday update, since you haven't implemented it yet?

The Possession ban is already implemented.
http://forum.shuffleit.nl/index.php?topic=604.msg10646#msg10646

I was referring to the banned cards feature.

AFAIK, it's implemented server-side, but it still needs a UI counterpart in the client. I haven't seen any ETA for that.
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FemurLemur

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Re: Is it okay to buy Possession?
« Reply #68 on: November 14, 2017, 09:17:18 am »
0

Mercenary costs one Urchin trash
Madman costs one Hermit trash
Imp costs a Devil's Workshop play (or an Exorcist trashing a 3+ cost)
Prizes cost a Province discard
Quest costs 2 Curses

--
I don't know why people dislike Alchemy so much... Possession aside, Familiar should cost 2P but that's about it.

Ahhh thank you! So he was saying that the opportunity cost for those cards is a second currency?

I'm not sure I agree that Upgrade/Traveller style cards count as a secondary currency. For one, Urchin, Hermit, DW, Province, and Curse all do something alone and have their own functions, which are modified into also having gaining power. On the other hand, Coins and Potions (as in the abstract spent/unspent things given to you by cards, not the cards themselves) are always buying power (which you can sometimes also use in functional ways like with Storyteller). When you play an Urchin Card, you don't get one "Unspent Urchin", and then look in the supply and see Mercenary which has a cost of 0 Coin currency and 1 "Urchin" currency.

Even Debt doesn't really count as a currency, because it's really more of a cost modifier in the same way that Overpay is. Ie it's shorthand for "If you don't have enough Coins for this, you can pay what you have now and pay the rest later over as many turns as you want, but you can't Buy again until this is fully paid for", but the payment is still being made in Coins. Coins and Potions are really the only existing currencies.

(Dear god, please don't let this turn into a debate about fiat money...)
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FemurLemur

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Re: Is it okay to buy Possession?
« Reply #69 on: November 14, 2017, 09:21:59 am »
+2

I know what Alchemy needs in order to breath new life into the Potion mechanic: Potion Debt ;)
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Cave-o-sapien

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Re: Is it okay to buy Possession?
« Reply #70 on: November 14, 2017, 03:19:13 pm »
+1

I know what Alchemy needs in order to breath new life into the Potion mechanic: Potion Debt ;)

And green potions. 
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pacovf

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Re: Is it okay to buy Possession?
« Reply #71 on: November 14, 2017, 03:25:41 pm »
+1

I know what Alchemy needs in order to breath new life into the Potion mechanic: Potion Debt ;)

And green potions.

Those are worse, they donít restore health too.
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CPiGuy

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Re: Is it okay to buy Possession?
« Reply #72 on: December 28, 2017, 09:14:54 pm »
+1

Donald just asked me to temporarily ban possession until we get the banned cards feature up.
I agreed to do that and will release it in a day or two.

I guess that settles this threads question.

Just curious, will this feature be part of your previously announced Thursday update, since you haven't implemented it yet?

The Possession ban is already implemented.
http://forum.shuffleit.nl/index.php?topic=604.msg10646#msg10646

I was referring to the banned cards feature.

AFAIK, it's implemented server-side, but it still needs a UI counterpart in the client. I haven't seen any ETA for that.

It's been a while; is there any ETA on implementing the banned cards feature yet?
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