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Author Topic: What did we get wrong before?  (Read 2339 times)

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Cave-o-sapien

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What did we get wrong before?
« on: November 03, 2017, 06:21:23 pm »
+3

Now that we have a lot of first impressions of Nocturne and a bit of time to kill before it's fully released, I was wondering what were some of the worst takes in previous sets after previews or early play?
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JW

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Re: What did we get wrong before?
« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2017, 06:27:23 pm »
+22

The occasions where you want to open Urchin/Urchin are pretty uncommon, the number where you want to open Urchin/Urchin/Urchin has got be close to zero. You get no economic development that way.

I do agree with you that Mercenary is being underrated here. It's still a great advantage to be the person playing the discard attack most turns. But it's not being underrated by very much. Mercenary is a really awkward card to get into a deck and use effectively, so it's hard to call this a strong card.

Urchin/Merc is crazy good, so unfortunately (if one doesn't like it) a lot of boards require going for it. From a strategy point of view, the simple answer is just "you have to go for Mercenary." The Merc on play effect is incredibly strong the first few times you do it. Trash two cards and probably buy a $5, that's nuts. And of course Urchin's cantripiness, and the Merc trashing means the attacks get played a lot more often, you can be constantly under attack.

Getting Mercenary first is a huge boost, but getting it second usually means you are able to attack longer into the game. In some situations that late attack hurts more. I have lost or nearly lost a lot games by blowing it after getting a huge lead with Merc luck   because I didn't account for my opponent attacking me late into the game. It's very easy to green too early once you have a clean Merc deck because you feel way ahead. I would advocate being patient in Mercenary games, take your time and build. This is true of Goons/Militia/Ghost Ship games too.

I don't have any special insights into how to counter it, it's a discard attack so there are the obvious things like draw to X. I think a lot of people forget how good the Lab variants are against discard attacks in general. The best way to beat discarders is to draw your deck. I don't believe much in the fill your deck with ok junk approach to fighting discarders, it's almost always better to try and thin and have 3 really awesome cards in hand.

If you want to ignore Merc entirely, you probably need to wait for a special board: one that doesn't reward deck thinning. Something like Duke maybe.
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Gherald

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Re: What did we get wrong before?
« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2017, 06:29:13 pm »
+6

Not sure of the timeline but I remember WW saying Doctor is better than Chapel
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Burning Skull

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Re: What did we get wrong before?
« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2017, 06:30:09 pm »
0

The occasions where you want to open Urchin/Urchin are pretty uncommon,

that's a good one :)


I remember people overbuying Candlestick Makers after Guilds were out. Wandering Winder has some YouTube videos where he like piles them.

Witherweaver

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Re: What did we get wrong before?
« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2017, 06:50:54 pm »
+7

In before 'hunting party gets increasingly worse when stacked'.

Edit: Correct quote uses 'progressively'.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2017, 07:26:44 pm by Witherweaver »
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Gherald

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Re: What did we get wrong before?
« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2017, 07:11:58 pm »
+3

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Witherweaver

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Re: What did we get wrong before?
« Reply #6 on: November 03, 2017, 07:28:39 pm »
+5

My personal predictions on these Nocturne cards:

They will be good when they're good, and bad when they're bad, and okay when they're neither.
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vishwathg

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Re: What did we get wrong before?
« Reply #7 on: November 03, 2017, 10:25:09 pm »
+3

@above:

"And when they're up they're up, and when they're down they're down, and when they're only halfway up they're neither up nor down."
« Last Edit: November 03, 2017, 10:26:20 pm by vishwathg »
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pacovf

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Re: What did we get wrong before?
« Reply #8 on: November 04, 2017, 01:06:59 am »
0

No one saw Jack of all Trades, Rebuild or Ill Gotten Gains as single card strategies when they first came out. They were first thought to be weak, neutral and useless, respectively, IIRC.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: What did we get wrong before?
« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2017, 01:24:22 am »
+2

No one saw Jack of all Trades, Rebuild or Ill Gotten Gains as single card strategies when they first came out. They were first thought to be weak, neutral and useless, respectively, IIRC.

I very distinctly remember a quote from WanderingWinder that stated Rebuild was one of the strongest cards in the game, and this was months before it was ever implemented online.
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Cuzz

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Re: What did we get wrong before?
« Reply #10 on: November 04, 2017, 07:26:50 am »
+5

No one saw Jack of all Trades, Rebuild or Ill Gotten Gains as single card strategies when they first came out. They were first thought to be weak, neutral and useless, respectively, IIRC.

And then it swung to, these are OP single card strategies that are impossible to counter when they are out and are ruining Dominion.
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Cave-o-sapien

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Re: What did we get wrong before?
« Reply #11 on: November 04, 2017, 10:54:21 am »
+10

No one saw Jack of all Trades, Rebuild or Ill Gotten Gains as single card strategies when they first came out. They were first thought to be weak, neutral and useless, respectively, IIRC.

And then it swung to, these are OP single card strategies that are impossible to counter when they are out and are ruining Dominion.

How many times has Dominion been ruined now? I've lost track.
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markusin

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Re: What did we get wrong before?
« Reply #12 on: November 04, 2017, 11:16:20 am »
+2

No one saw Jack of all Trades, Rebuild or Ill Gotten Gains as single card strategies when they first came out. They were first thought to be weak, neutral and useless, respectively, IIRC.

And then it swung to, these are OP single card strategies that are impossible to counter when they are out and are ruining Dominion.

I think IGG has suffered the most power dropoff of those three. Rebuild still gets modest support each expansion, and Jack of all Trades has its uses in engines and whatnot.

What was the opinion of Governor when that came out?
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pacovf

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Re: What did we get wrong before?
« Reply #13 on: November 04, 2017, 12:40:53 pm »
0

No one saw Jack of all Trades, Rebuild or Ill Gotten Gains as single card strategies when they first came out. They were first thought to be weak, neutral and useless, respectively, IIRC.

And then it swung to, these are OP single card strategies that are impossible to counter when they are out and are ruining Dominion.

I think only Rebuild got this sort of language applied to it. The advice with the other two was that it was strong, but that there were better things to do depending on the kingdom, and that you had to be on the lookout for them. For Rebuild, the usual piece of advice was (is?) just to mirror.
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Awaclus

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Re: What did we get wrong before?
« Reply #14 on: November 04, 2017, 12:47:22 pm »
0

For Rebuild, the usual piece of advice was (is?)

Was.
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Cuzz

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Re: What did we get wrong before?
« Reply #15 on: November 04, 2017, 01:49:27 pm »
+2

No one saw Jack of all Trades, Rebuild or Ill Gotten Gains as single card strategies when they first came out. They were first thought to be weak, neutral and useless, respectively, IIRC.

And then it swung to, these are OP single card strategies that are impossible to counter when they are out and are ruining Dominion.

I think only Rebuild got this sort of language applied to it. The advice with the other two was that it was strong, but that there were better things to do depending on the kingdom, and that you had to be on the lookout for them. For Rebuild, the usual piece of advice was (is?) just to mirror.

I was thinking about this post http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=1338.msg21617#msg21617
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Stealth Tomato

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Re: What did we get wrong before?
« Reply #16 on: November 06, 2017, 11:38:41 am »
0

No one saw Jack of all Trades, Rebuild or Ill Gotten Gains as single card strategies when they first came out. They were first thought to be weak, neutral and useless, respectively, IIRC.

And then it swung to, these are OP single card strategies that are impossible to counter when they are out and are ruining Dominion.

I think IGG has suffered the most power dropoff of those three. Rebuild still gets modest support each expansion, and Jack of all Trades has its uses in engines and whatnot.

What was the opinion of Governor when that came out?

High level games turned into Governor races a lot for awhile. Weaker players still use the cards function of Governor way too much.
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Accatitippi

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Re: What did we get wrong before?
« Reply #17 on: November 06, 2017, 06:01:27 pm »
+8

In before 'hunting party gets increasingly worse when stacked'.

Edit: Correct quote uses 'progressively'.

Reading the same blog post, I found this other pearl:
"First reaction is that [Harvest] is a little too strong."

Plz nerf Hrvest
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NoMoreFun

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Re: What did we get wrong before?
« Reply #18 on: November 06, 2017, 09:18:02 pm »
+2

Terminal "+$3" and "Gain a Gold" in general
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crj

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Re: What did we get wrong before?
« Reply #19 on: November 08, 2017, 03:58:40 pm »
+13

How many times has Dominion been ruined now? I've lost track.
Just once. In Dark Ages.
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Seprix

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Re: What did we get wrong before?
« Reply #20 on: November 09, 2017, 10:11:28 pm »
+2

How many times has Dominion been ruined now? I've lost track.
Just once. In Dark Ages.

Damn you Beggar.
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Witherweaver

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Re: What did we get wrong before?
« Reply #21 on: November 10, 2017, 11:25:27 am »
0

How many times has Dominion been ruined now? I've lost track.
Just once. In Dark Ages.

Damn you Beggar.

He's a Vagrant.
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Awaclus

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Re: What did we get wrong before?
« Reply #22 on: November 10, 2017, 11:32:40 am »
0

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enfynet

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Re: What did we get wrong before?
« Reply #23 on: November 10, 2017, 03:27:56 pm »
+2

I'm pretty sure the Cultist was the first to ruin Dominion.
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Witherweaver

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Re: What did we get wrong before?
« Reply #24 on: November 10, 2017, 03:32:32 pm »
+4

I'm pretty sure the Cultist was the first to ruin Dominion.

Death Cart ruined it for me.
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Asper

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Re: What did we get wrong before?
« Reply #25 on: November 13, 2017, 09:52:22 am »
+5

No one saw Jack of all Trades, Rebuild or Ill Gotten Gains as single card strategies when they first came out. They were first thought to be weak, neutral and useless, respectively, IIRC.

And then it swung to, these are OP single card strategies that are impossible to counter when they are out and are ruining Dominion.

How many times has Dominion been ruined now? I've lost track.

Dominion itself can't get ruined by specific cards. Games with specific cards can well be.

ConMan

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Re: What did we get wrong before?
« Reply #26 on: November 13, 2017, 06:09:16 pm »
+6

No one saw Jack of all Trades, Rebuild or Ill Gotten Gains as single card strategies when they first came out. They were first thought to be weak, neutral and useless, respectively, IIRC.

And then it swung to, these are OP single card strategies that are impossible to counter when they are out and are ruining Dominion.

How many times has Dominion been ruined now? I've lost track.

Dominion itself can't get ruined by specific cards. Games with specific cards can well be.
Nah man, ever since Silver it's just been downhill all the way.
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Cuzz

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Re: What did we get wrong before?
« Reply #27 on: November 14, 2017, 08:30:38 am »
+3

No one saw Jack of all Trades, Rebuild or Ill Gotten Gains as single card strategies when they first came out. They were first thought to be weak, neutral and useless, respectively, IIRC.

And then it swung to, these are OP single card strategies that are impossible to counter when they are out and are ruining Dominion.

How many times has Dominion been ruined now? I've lost track.

Dominion itself can't get ruined by specific cards. Games with specific cards can well be.
Nah man, ever since Silver it's just been downhill all the way.

The Silver Test: If your copy of the game came with Silvers, return it for a refund.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2017, 10:21:29 am by Cuzz »
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Seprix

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Re: What did we get wrong before?
« Reply #28 on: November 14, 2017, 09:34:45 am »
+3

While this card seems strong, I'm going to come out now and say this card isn't that great, and if there is already trashing and card draw, i'd consider ignoring this card altogether.

lol

The same pitfall that trapped people into buying too many Villages and trapped many people into buying too many Universities will now trap people into buying too many Villas.

The lack of drawing power by Villa makes Villa almost strictly worse than Village, but it's +Buy and +$1 in addition to it's ability to continue a turn make it alright.

I was so busy calling Villa a bad Village that I underappreciated how good the on-gain is.

Enchantress makes Rebuild slightly worse.

"slightly"

I also proposed a Debt system where you typed it as [8] but really now people just type 8D so that could be considered wrong.
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ghost_of_jonts

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Re: What did we get wrong before?
« Reply #29 on: November 14, 2017, 09:37:48 am »
+1

Nah man, ever since Silver it's just been downhill all the way.

Yesterday I played a wharf engine with Raid and Conquest. I agree that Silver is way too OP.
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FemurLemur

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Re: What did we get wrong before?
« Reply #30 on: November 16, 2017, 09:54:37 am »
+1

No one saw Jack of all Trades, Rebuild or Ill Gotten Gains as single card strategies when they first came out. They were first thought to be weak, neutral and useless, respectively, IIRC.
And then it swung to, these are OP single card strategies that are impossible to counter when they are out and are ruining Dominion.
How many times has Dominion been ruined now? I've lost track.

My favorite will always be this one. So melodramatic.

I seem to remember an article that said something like "IGG shows just how bad a card has to be in order to give a Curse on-gain". It's interesting for me to reflect back on that, because even though I initially thought IGG was good, I totally conformed to that article writer's belief under the assumption that they must know better than me. I eventually came around, but it serves as a personal reminder to take initial opinions with a grain of salt.
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