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Cave-o-sapien

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Etiquette in Dominion Online
« on: October 31, 2017, 01:40:59 am »
+27

(After threatening to do so several times, I finally wrote down some of my thoughts on this. Let me know what you think. Feedback is appreciated).

Dominion Online Etiquette
or How to Not be Mad Online


Years ago, in a game of Carcassonne on Xbox Live, I played a city tile with a follower on it near my human opponent’s unfinished city. This is a standard move in Carcassonne – indeed it’s the whole basis of the game. Apparently he didn’t like that. In fact, he was so upset he unleashed the most profane, vulgar tirade I had ever heard directed at another human being. Over a game of Carcassonne. I was shocked, stunned. I subsequently muted all people who weren't on my friends list.

Online gaming doesn’t have to be that way. It can be as civil and courteous as face-to-face gaming1. With feedback from others, I’ve compiled here a list of dos and don’ts to hopefully help make Dominion Online a pleasant experience for all. I assume a 2-player game. Most of them apply equally well to multiplayer games.

Do Assume good faith. You've come to play a game of Dominion, and you're hoping to have a good time. In the absence of other evidence, assume that your opponent is in the same position.

Do say something at the start of the game. This doesn’t need to be a lengthy introduction, just a brief gesture that acknowledges that you are playing against another human. You can say ‘hi’, ‘gl hf’ (good luck, have fun!) or even offer an emoji handshake 🤝.

Don’t be offended if your opponent says nothing. Some people are playing on clients that don’t allow them to easily type in the chat window. Some have a limited vocabulary in your language. It’s also true that some people simply don’t like saying ‘hi’ to other people. Maybe they’re afraid of a chatty game?

Don’t chat your opponent to death if they don’t respond. Some people like chatty games, some people don’t. Try to figure this out and act accordingly.

Do let your opponent know if you need to step away for a moment. A simple ‘brb’ (‘be right back’) is almost universally understood.

Don’t try to change how quickly your opponent plays. If they are playing slowly in a deliberate attempt to force you to resign (‘slow-rolling’) then you should resign, blacklist and report them. If they are playing at a natural pace that is slower than you’d like, it’s impolite to hector them.

Do blacklist players you would rather not play against again.

Don’t whine about luck. A simple ‘ugh’ every now and then is certainly forgivable but claiming that your opponent is only winning because of unbelievable luck is not very respectful and probably a sign you should take a break.

Do acknowledge your opponent’s bad luck and your own good luck. You pulled Locusts and trashed their Overlord? “Ouch. Sorry. That’s harsh.” Be humble. Sometimes you are winning because of your unbelievable luck.

Do acknowledge the awesome or interesting things your opponent does. “Wow, good call on the second Raze!” or “That’s the best Pixie engine I’ve ever seen!” Again, not everyone likes a chatty game, but it’s a rare person that doesn’t like a compliment.

Do acknowledge your opponent at the end of the game, including when you resign. A common expression here is ‘gg’ – shorthand for ‘good game2.’ If you think your opponent played particularly well, a common shorthand is ‘wp’ for ‘well-played’.

Don’t say ‘gg’ before the end of the game unless you are going to resign immediately. In some gaming circles, ‘gg’ is interpreted as, “You’ve got this. I concede.” If you don’t follow a ‘gg’ with a resignation, your opponents may see it as taunting, poor sportsmanship, or a meta-gaming tactic3.

Do end the game quickly if you have the win in hand. Of course, you should make sure you have the win, but needlessly prolonging your turn to squeeze out a few more points is not very sporting.

1Because no one ever gets mad in person, right?
2Nothing is more awkward than complaining all game, pseudo-conceding and then winning. With your IRL gaming friends this might be an endearing foible (at least I hope so); outside the context of friendship it’s just annoying.
3There is a lot of debate about whether the winner should say ‘gg’ first, or if that is considered a form of poor sportsmanship or even taunting. Unfortunately, this can lead to a silent standoff at the end of the game where neither player says anything. Personally, I’d rather something be said, even if there’s a small chance of it being misinterpreted.

« Last Edit: November 03, 2017, 05:54:49 pm by Cave-o-sapien »
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JW

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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2017, 02:00:02 am »
+9

Another reason why some people are not very chatty is that they may not know much English. Hard to respond to someone chatting in English if you don’t know the language! I don’t find an opponent resigning during my turn to be a problem- if I want to see how the turn would have gone, or even the turn after that, I can continue against a bot.
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Skumpy

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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2017, 02:08:06 am »
+6

For the last "Don't", I feel that sometimes, it's faster to play some cards to be sure you have sufficient resources to win than it is to carefully count your hand to see if it's exactly enough for a 1 point victory. But really good overall, and it would be nice to see more players of all skill levels follow that point in particular; same as in sports, chess, etc, when the game's over, it's classy to end it quick  :)
« Last Edit: October 31, 2017, 02:32:12 am by Skumpy »
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Awaclus

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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2017, 03:33:32 am »
+3

Do: acknowledge your opponent at the end of the game. A common convention is for the losing player to say ‘gg’ (good game) first, and the winner to respond in kind. The winner saying ‘gg’ first is seen in some circles as taunting or poor sportsmanship, especially if it’s prior to the end of the game. If you win and your opponent says nothing, a simple ‘thanks for the game’ is fine.

However, "thanks for the game" is probably going to be interpreted as "I'm not going to play another game".
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Polk5440

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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #4 on: October 31, 2017, 10:04:25 am »
+5

Do: Blacklist players you do not want to play against again.
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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2017, 10:08:37 am »
+6

Resigning during an opponent's turn is fine. They can continue with bots if they really want to click through their turn.
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Polk5440

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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2017, 10:35:21 am »
+3

Don’t: whine about luck. A simple ‘ugh’ every now and then is warranted and certainly forgivable – and I would always allow a ‘ffs’ when Warrior trashes a Warrior or Sea Hag hags a Sea Hag – but claiming that your opponent is “a lucky boy” or is only winning because of unbelievable luck is not very respectful and probably a sign you should take a break.

Strike the parenthetical ("and I would always allow a ‘ffs’ when Warrior trashes a Warrior or Sea Hag hags a Sea Hag"). Not everyone would appreciate that comment. I certainly would not.

Quote
Do: acknowledge your opponent’s bad luck and your own good luck. You pulled Locusts from the Hex deck and trashed their Overlord? “Oh man, sorry. That’s harsh.” Be humble. Sometimes you are a lucky boy and you are winning mostly because of your unbelievable luck.

I would strike this point entirely or strike everything before "Be humble". If you keep it, say "lucky" instead of "a lucky boy".

Quote
Do: acknowledge your opponent at the end of the game. A common convention is for the losing player to say ‘gg’ (good game) first, and the winner to respond in kind. The winner saying ‘gg’ first is seen in some circles as taunting or poor sportsmanship, especially if it’s prior to the end of the game. If you win and your opponent says nothing, a simple ‘thanks for the game’ is fine.

Don’t: say ‘gg’ before the end of the game unless you are going to resign. In this context, ‘gg’ is usually interpreted as, “You’ve got this. I concede.” If you don’t follow this with a resignation, it may come across as a meta-gaming tactic2.

Keep the focus on politeness. If you insist on including something like this, I would rewrite as follows:

Do: Acknowledge your opponent at the end of the game.

Don’t: Say ‘gg’ before the end of the game, unless you are going to resign immediately. In some gaming circles ‘gg’ is interpreted as, “You’ve got this. I concede.” If you don’t follow a `gg' with a resignation, your opponents may see it as taunting, poor sportsmanship, or a meta-gaming tactic2.

Quote
Don’t: resign in the middle of your opponent’s turn. 

I agree, but others may not. It seems way less impolite than the other things on this list. Strike it.

Quote
Don’t: run up the score. Victory margin counts for nothing. If you can end the game quickly on your turn, do it. With rare exceptions, your opponent does not want or need to see your amazing engine one more time.

Strike or reword. "Victory margin counts for nothing" is a very ratings-implementation-specific statement.

Do: End the game quickly if you have the win in hand.

-----

Also, stylistically, I think it would be better to either capitalize the first word after the colon in each paragraph or remove the colon.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2017, 01:45:31 pm by Polk5440 »
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Drab Emordnilap

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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #7 on: October 31, 2017, 11:01:58 am »
+2

Is it possibly worth being more verbose with the abbreviations, like how you were with "gl hf"? Someone reading an article about online gaming etiquette may not know what "gg" or "ffs" stand for.
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Chappy7

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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #8 on: October 31, 2017, 11:10:58 am »
+1

Is it possibly worth being more verbose with the abbreviations, like how you were with "gl hf"? Someone reading an article about online gaming etiquette may not know what "gg" or "ffs" stand for.

Yeah that's me.  I don't know ffs.  Love dominion, so I play online.  Other than that, I don't spend much time online. 
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markusin

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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #9 on: October 31, 2017, 11:21:57 am »
0

Is it possibly worth being more verbose with the abbreviations, like how you were with "gl hf"? Someone reading an article about online gaming etiquette may not know what "gg" or "ffs" stand for.

Yeah that's me.  I don't know ffs.  Love dominion, so I play online.  Other than that, I don't spend much time online.



ffs: for f***'s sake

I think that's what it stands for. Not a very pretty thing to say.
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Chappy7

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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #10 on: October 31, 2017, 11:25:49 am »
+3

Is it possibly worth being more verbose with the abbreviations, like how you were with "gl hf"? Someone reading an article about online gaming etiquette may not know what "gg" or "ffs" stand for.

Yeah that's me.  I don't know ffs.  Love dominion, so I play online.  Other than that, I don't spend much time online.


ffs: for f***'s sake

I think that's what it stands for. Not a very pretty thing to say.

So many of my games make sense now! Thanks
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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #11 on: October 31, 2017, 11:27:21 am »
+9

It stands for forum.fominionstrategy.com.
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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #12 on: October 31, 2017, 11:40:42 am »
+4

One thing that annoys me is people starting to talk during my turn.
It interrupts the flow.
I try my best to only chat during my own turn.
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Awaclus

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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #13 on: October 31, 2017, 11:58:01 am »
+9

One thing that annoys me is people starting to talk during my turn.
It interrupts the flow.
I try my best to only chat during my own turn.

I, on the other hand, have been trying to only chat during my opponent's turn so that I don't waste their time (and mine as well) typing instead of playing. It never even hit me that it can bother someone.
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Deadlock39

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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #14 on: October 31, 2017, 12:28:24 pm »
+14

I strive to always be polite, but some find it rude if I talk during their turn, and others find it rude if I talk on my own turn. Unfortunately, there are also folks who find it rude if I don't talk at all. The only solution is to quit dominion. :(

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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #15 on: October 31, 2017, 01:05:36 pm »
0

One thing that annoys me is people starting to talk during my turn.
It interrupts the flow.
I try my best to only chat during my own turn.

I, on the other hand, have been trying to only chat during my opponent's turn so that I don't waste their time (and mine as well) typing instead of playing. It never even hit me that it can bother someone.

Same.  It seems to work when we both just respond during the other's turn.  I don't see how this is a problem. 
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tripwire

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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #16 on: October 31, 2017, 01:30:00 pm »
+5

Generally I agree with these points, and think it's useful that such an article exists.

That being said, this rubbed me the wrong way:

Sometimes you are a lucky boy

Generally, I think it's a good idea to be as inclusive as possible, especially when discussing a hobby that is often assumed to be less welcoming to women.


On another note, when is it appropriate to discuss strategy, if ever? Sometimes I want to give advice because I genuinely want to help someone become a better player, but I can see how this might inevitably come off as condescending to some people. Is it just always a bad idea unless you are praising your opponent or criticizing your own play?
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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #17 on: October 31, 2017, 01:41:25 pm »
+2

I strive to always be polite, but some find it rude if I talk during their turn, and others find it rude if I talk on my own turn. Unfortunately, there are also folks who find it rude if I don't talk at all. The only solution is to quit dominion. :(

Or players can wear signs that specify their preferred rules of communication.

Example:
- greetings, please
- talk to me on my turn
- always say "gg" at the end of the game
     - unless I am raging at you

Or, you know, live with the fact that you are rude sometimes.

The worst is when I see a "gg" or a "well played" right as I click the button to leave the table. That makes me feel awful.
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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #18 on: October 31, 2017, 02:12:50 pm »
+2

One thing that annoys me is people starting to talk during my turn.
It interrupts the flow.
I try my best to only chat during my own turn.

I, on the other hand, have been trying to only chat during my opponent's turn so that I don't waste their time (and mine as well) typing instead of playing. It never even hit me that it can bother someone.

Same.  It seems to work when we both just respond during the other's turn.  I don't see how this is a problem.
This is a small annoyance for me, not a big problem.
Often they start talking in the middle of a long turn or during buy phase thinking time.
I then lose concentration at the chat ping and have to start counting or planning buys again.
It also feel rude to me not to respond, so I think about responding (even if I don't end up replying) before continuing my turn.
I'm not claiming to be right.
Just trying to show that etiquette is complicated.
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Cave-o-sapien

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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #19 on: October 31, 2017, 02:20:00 pm »
+1

Lots of good feedback so far. Thank you and keep it coming.

I will respond to a few things here and then incorporate some changes into a new version later this evening or tomorrow.

That being said, this rubbed me the wrong way:

Sometimes you are a lucky boy

Generally, I think it's a good idea to be as inclusive as possible, especially when discussing a hobby that is often assumed to be less welcoming to women.

In my first draft, at the point where I say it's not respectful to say "lucky boy", I actually pointed out that it is doubly inconsiderate to assume your opponent is male. Sounds like I should've left this in. The callback to "lucky boy" was meant as a continuation of that criticism, but that's too subtle and should be changed.

ffs: for f***'s sake

I think that's what it stands for. Not a very pretty thing to say.

Agree. It is incongruous of me to complain about vulgarity in my introduction and then rationalize using this expression. I will remove it.

--Lots of helpful suggestions--

Also, stylistically, I think it would be better to either capitalize the first word after the colon in each paragraph or remove the colon.

Thank you for these. I will incorporate many of them, and agree on your stylistic point.

However, "thanks for the game" is probably going to be interpreted as "I'm not going to play another game".

Excellent point. I hadn't considered that because I typically play one game against an opponent and then go back to automatch. Maybe some people find THAT rude.


Also: I should say that I've broken most of these recommendations at one point or another, but I strive not to break them, and I think that's part of what motivated me to do this.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2017, 02:21:28 pm by Cave-o-sapien »
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Cave-o-sapien

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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #20 on: October 31, 2017, 02:24:05 pm »
0

On another note, when is it appropriate to discuss strategy, if ever? Sometimes I want to give advice because I genuinely want to help someone become a better player, but I can see how this might inevitably come off as condescending to some people. Is it just always a bad idea unless you are praising your opponent or criticizing your own play?

Oh, I meant to say something about this, too. This is really tough and I don't know what, if anything, to recommend.

I can say that some of the best advice I've received in games has been after I made a comment or complaint about bad luck.
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Cave-o-sapien

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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #21 on: October 31, 2017, 02:27:02 pm »
0

Another reason why some people are not very chatty is that they may not know much English. Hard to respond to someone chatting in English if you don’t know the language!

Yes, of course. I wanted to discuss language issues in the first point, but ultimately left it out. I should definitely include it one of those two places.
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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #22 on: October 31, 2017, 04:05:18 pm »
+2

I think something deserves to be said on the issue of speed.
I play quite slowly (well, slow when compared to less slow players anyway) and i have received some rage from players complaining that I'm "slow as fuck" and "a pain to play against", among other things. I think playing unrated games against inexperienced players leaves me more exposed to this sort of thing.

Anyway, if for any reason you didn't quite like your opponent's company, stay quiet and silently blacklist them. No need to be rude.
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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #23 on: October 31, 2017, 05:58:27 pm »
0

Is it possibly worth being more verbose with the abbreviations, like how you were with "gl hf"? Someone reading an article about online gaming etiquette may not know what "gg" or "ffs" stand for.

Indeed, i like to see a blog post or something with a nice overview of all those abbreviatons. In the beginning when i was playing online, and i saw "gg", i just tought my opponent accidentally hit those keys an their keyboard or something. After a while i realised a lot of people were doing that so i looked up what it meant, but it's actually not really a simple thing to google, it would be nice that if i google "dominion gg" or something would lead me to a list of abbreviatons.
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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #24 on: October 31, 2017, 06:36:58 pm »
0

I feel like all of the Dos are good things to do, but it's not bad or impolite to not do them. While it's polite to chat to your opponent/s if they're up for it, there's no obligation to do so.
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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #25 on: October 31, 2017, 07:22:41 pm »
+9

Here's my guiding principle (stolen, in a fashion, from Wikipedia):

Do: Assume good faith. You've come to play a game of Dominion, and you're hoping to have a good time. In the absence of other evidence, assume that your opponent is in the same position. Of course, if they start acting otherwise, it's up to you to decide how much slack to cut them.
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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #26 on: October 31, 2017, 11:55:48 pm »
+4

I typically say gg whether I win or lose.
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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #27 on: November 01, 2017, 12:51:27 am »
+4

Years ago, in a game of Carcassonne on Xbox Live, I played a castle tile with a follower on it near my human opponent’s unfinished castle.
You mean "city", not "castle". I know a lot of people say "castle", but since the introduction of the Bridges, Castles and Bazaars expansion, it's been pretty confusing.
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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #28 on: November 01, 2017, 06:44:19 pm »
+1

I typically say gg whether I win or lose.

Same. I started saying it because I thought that it was always the polite thing to do, as in "show you're not a sore loser by saying gg", or say gg when you win just to show your opponent that you're trying to be a good sport about it and not rub it in that you won 85 to 30 or something like that. I mean, which is better: saying "hahaha you suck! Look at me I won by 55 points!" or just saying "Good game!"?

As an aside, in principle I do agree with that running up the score as high as you can just to run up the score as high as you can is a jerkish thing to do, but I do have two exceptions to that rule:
1. Games with Kingdoms that warrant the building of a well-oiled Goons Engine, these games can also (but don't have to) involve Dominate. I mean, in these types of scenarios, when one player gets going, it's almost impossible for that player not to run up the score, as far as I know.
2. Games with my Brother  (he generally runs up the score on me when he can, especially if we're playing online, so it's only fair for me to do it back to him when I can, although these days one of us usually just resigns when it's clear that the other one has pulled together a game-winning engine :P)
Note: Exception 2 usually happens in Goons games, with Dominate (but not always with Dominate)

EDITS: Additional wording and phrasing added in for additional clarification
« Last Edit: November 01, 2017, 06:53:39 pm by Trogdor the Burninator »
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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #29 on: November 01, 2017, 07:22:18 pm »
+10

and I would always allow a ‘ffs’

I disagree with this. People generally have different viewpoints on profanity. Somebody who says "FFS" even as an acronym would annoy me. If you're trying to be polite, I would suggest avoiding profanity as much as possible (unless you know they're OK with it).
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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #30 on: November 02, 2017, 02:08:01 am »
+3

I mean, which is better: saying "hahaha you suck! Look at me I won by 55 points!" or just saying "Good game!"?
It's also better to hit someone with a club than to shoot them with a gun.
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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #31 on: November 02, 2017, 02:24:06 am »
0

I know people that get mad when you tell them they did well when they think otherwise, not because they think you are being impolite, but because the disconnect puts them in a tough spot: either they accept the compliment even though they disagree with it, or they don't and need to explain why they aren't; in both cases, it puts extra emotional stress on themselves when they are already dealing with the dissatisfaction with their performance.

This is not about Dominion, but other competitive scenes, though I think it still applies, and it's something to keep in mind when saying "gg" I guess.
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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #32 on: November 02, 2017, 07:10:58 am »
+5

Resigning during an opponent's turn is fine. They can continue with bots if they really want to click through their turn.

I generally think it’s best to ask if it’s the middle of their turn, especially if it’s the last turn. People enjoy playing their engine out. That’s really why they’re all here. Suddenly interrupting that without warning, especially when it only saves you maybe 30 seconds when the game will finish, is a Dick Move.
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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #33 on: November 02, 2017, 07:30:56 am »
0

Resigning during an opponent's turn is fine. They can continue with bots if they really want to click through their turn.

I generally think it’s best to ask if it’s the middle of their turn, especially if it’s the last turn. People enjoy playing their engine out. That’s really why they’re all here. Suddenly interrupting that without warning, especially when it only saves you maybe 30 seconds when the game will finish, is a Dick Move.

30 seconds? Man, I do it when it saves me 2.
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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #34 on: November 02, 2017, 07:51:01 am »
+2

Resigning during an opponent's turn is fine. They can continue with bots if they really want to click through their turn.

I generally think it’s best to ask if it’s the middle of their turn, especially if it’s the last turn. People enjoy playing their engine out. That’s really why they’re all here. Suddenly interrupting that without warning, especially when it only saves you maybe 30 seconds when the game will finish, is a Dick Move.

I consider asking in this spot to be poor etiquette.
You are giving them two options.
Say yes, in which case you may as well have just resigned.
Or say no, making them feel rude for denying your request.
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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #35 on: November 02, 2017, 08:27:28 am »
+2

Do: acknowledge your opponent at the end of the game. A common convention is for the losing player to say ‘gg’ (good game) first, and the winner to respond in kind. The winner saying ‘gg’ first is seen in some circles as taunting or poor sportsmanship, especially if it’s prior to the end of the game. If you win and your opponent says nothing, a simple ‘thanks for the game’ is fine.

Don’t: say ‘gg’ before the end of the game unless you are going to resign. In this context, ‘gg’ is usually interpreted as, “You’ve got this. I concede.” If you don’t follow this with a resignation, it may come across as a meta-gaming tactic2.

Are there any non-ambiguous abbreviations if you want to be polite at the end of the game? I used 'gg' before even when winning, as it is quick to type and I do not want to annoy my opponent by writing a long response instead of finishing the turn. 'Good game' strikes me as a fairly neutral summary of 'This was a fun game, you played well and fair. Thanks for your time, I enjoyed playing with you. Good luck for further matches'.  I know that some people use the term sacastically, but shouldn't the default expectation be that it is meant what has been said if there is no other indication?
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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #36 on: November 02, 2017, 09:31:59 am »
+3

Resigning during an opponent's turn is fine. They can continue with bots if they really want to click through their turn.

I generally think it’s best to ask if it’s the middle of their turn, especially if it’s the last turn. People enjoy playing their engine out. That’s really why they’re all here. Suddenly interrupting that without warning, especially when it only saves you maybe 30 seconds when the game will finish, is a Dick Move.

30 seconds? Man, I do it when it saves me 2.

And of course, people universally hold your behavior in the highest of regard.
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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #37 on: November 02, 2017, 10:28:40 am »
+1

Resigning during an opponent's turn is fine. They can continue with bots if they really want to click through their turn.

I generally think it’s best to ask if it’s the middle of their turn, especially if it’s the last turn. People enjoy playing their engine out. That’s really why they’re all here. Suddenly interrupting that without warning, especially when it only saves you maybe 30 seconds when the game will finish, is a Dick Move.

30 seconds? Man, I do it when it saves me 2.

And of course, people universally hold your behavior in the highest of regard.

Oh wow, I read that as "2 minutes" up until now.
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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #38 on: November 02, 2017, 10:39:37 am »
+2

Resigning during an opponent's turn is fine. They can continue with bots if they really want to click through their turn.

I generally think it’s best to ask if it’s the middle of their turn, especially if it’s the last turn. People enjoy playing their engine out. That’s really why they’re all here. Suddenly interrupting that without warning, especially when it only saves you maybe 30 seconds when the game will finish, is a Dick Move.

I consider asking in this spot to be poor etiquette.
You are giving them two options.
Say yes, in which case you may as well have just resigned.
Or say no, making them feel rude for denying your request.

I think if you are here to play dominion, you should finish the game, whether you win or lose.  You don't see people quitting in the middle of basketball games or in the middle of a soccer match, even if they are losing badly.  We're not here just to win as many games as we can in the fastest time (at least most of us aren't) we're here to play dominion.  When I'm winning, I like to finish the game.  Finishing against a bot is lame.  They just wreck the other person's deck and buy silvers for days.
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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #39 on: November 02, 2017, 10:56:31 am »
+4

We're not here just to win as many games as we can in the fastest time (at least most of us aren't) we're here to play dominion.

Yeah exactly, we're here to play Dominion, not watch our opponent clicking pointlessly when the game is already over.
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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #40 on: November 02, 2017, 01:57:44 pm »
+2

Regarding speed of players .. I totally don't mind players being slow, and it's never a blockable offense, unless they're slow-playing (not just slow but when it's intentional .. that's an entire different can of worms). In fact, more often than not I think players should play slower and think more. That being said .. What is the best way to kindly ask a player to play faster? And are there certain scenarios where it is and is not warranted? I've had a simple "hey would you mind playing a bit faster?" get all sorts of reactions --
"ok"
"i'm reading what the cards do"
"whoops i thought i was waiting for you"
"ya sorry my boss walked in"
"@#$%* @#$@$!!!"
etc.
« Last Edit: November 02, 2017, 01:58:57 pm by Dingan »
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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #41 on: November 02, 2017, 02:00:15 pm »
+1

You could always ask "connection issues?" and hope they take the hint. And then if it turns out to be actual connection issues, that works out fine too.
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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #42 on: November 02, 2017, 02:48:41 pm »
+2

We're not here just to win as many games as we can in the fastest time (at least most of us aren't) we're here to play dominion.

Yeah exactly, we're here to play Dominion, not watch our opponent clicking pointlessly when the game is already over.

Part of playing dominion is losing (Yes, that includes watching other players have good turns). In any kind of contest you should be a gracious loser.  Finish what you started.  You shouldn't just quit whenever you feel like it.  Unless you're playing solitaire.  Then go for it.  In fact, if you don't like watching other players do well, you should probably stick with solitaire in the first place.
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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #43 on: November 02, 2017, 03:14:05 pm »
+3

Personally, I wish my opponents would resign some games I'm winning. It's just as boring for me as them.

Also, I sometimes get players complain for me not greening sooner and overbuilding. My long turns piss some players. ???
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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #44 on: November 02, 2017, 03:34:32 pm »
+4

Part of playing dominion is losing (Yes, that includes watching other players have good turns).

No, it includes admitting defeat by resigning.

In any kind of contest you should be a gracious loser.  Finish what you started.  You shouldn't just quit whenever you feel like it.

Resigning isn't quitting. The moment I resign, the game is finished, and I'm the loser.

Unless you're playing solitaire.

No, I don't like playing solitaire and that's why I prefer for my opponent to resign as soon as they have no chance of winning so that we can start a new game instead of having me play solitaire for a while, and I return the favor when I have no chance of winning.
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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #45 on: November 02, 2017, 03:39:25 pm »
0

Do you just quit when you play in real life?

Whatever, yall can do what you want.  Whenever my opponents resign it feels rude to me.  The exception is when I get a message like "I think you have this one.  Another game?" or at least "wp gg"

When someone just resigns it feels like a rage quit, even though I know it often isn't.  Just doesn't feel very sportsmanlike. 
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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #46 on: November 02, 2017, 03:54:01 pm »
+8

Yes, I've resigned 2-player Dominion games in real life.

Resigning when you believe you cannot win is common practice in many competitive 2-player games: Chess, Go, Magic: The Gathering, Hearthstone.

Also, this topic has been discussed at length in the past.
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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #47 on: November 02, 2017, 03:58:44 pm »
+2

The sports analogy you used also isn’t great, because sports is usually entertainment and the teams agreed to provide gameplay for a fixed amount of time to the ticket holders. Additionally, most major sports leagues do not allow for true resignation.
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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #48 on: November 02, 2017, 04:09:38 pm »
0

Personally, I wish my opponents would resign some games I'm winning. It's just as boring for me as them.

Also, I sometimes get players complain for me not greening sooner and overbuilding. My long turns piss some players. ???

I find these factors to be related. Some players complain about long turns because they aren't used to seeing big engines. When you build a big engine they don't see that it's going to let you win by greening in a small number of turns, and they don't resign because the VP counter indicates that they are ahead on points (though they are not going to win).
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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #49 on: November 02, 2017, 04:32:02 pm »
+1

Do you just quit when you play in real life?

Yeah, if I know I'm going to lose.

The exception is when I get a message like "I think you have this one.  Another game?" or at least "wp gg"

The resignation itself already contains that message. It's the opponent acknowledging that you've won.
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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #50 on: November 02, 2017, 04:42:14 pm »
0

Part of playing dominion is losing (Yes, that includes watching other players have good turns).

No, it includes admitting defeat by resigning.

In any kind of contest you should be a gracious loser.  Finish what you started.  You shouldn't just quit whenever you feel like it.

Resigning isn't quitting. The moment I resign, the game is finished, and I'm the loser.

Unless you're playing solitaire.

No, I don't like playing solitaire and that's why I prefer for my opponent to resign as soon as they have no chance of winning so that we can start a new game instead of having me play solitaire for a while, and I return the favor when I have no chance of winning.
This is pretty much why I don't play online. There's no way you would enjoy playing a game against me.
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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #51 on: November 02, 2017, 05:01:26 pm »
0

The sports analogy you used also isn’t great, because sports is usually entertainment and the teams agreed to provide gameplay for a fixed amount of time to the ticket holders. Additionally, most major sports leagues do not allow for true resignation.

Actually, there are relevant analogs in combat sports. Many MMA fights, for example, end in submission or TKO. The former is directly analogous to resigning in Dominion. The latter doesn't happen, because we don't have third-party referees to stop the game, but there are times where it arguably should happen. I have been in games where it was technically impossible (based on available points) for the losing player to come back and win.
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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #52 on: November 02, 2017, 05:23:25 pm »
+14

WeedGoku69 here and I figured I'd drop by to give a few pointers on etiquette.

At the beginning of the game greet your opponent by saying:
"Hi, I am WeedGoku"

Pause for around 2 seconds, then type:
"69"

If your opponent types anything else into chat, kindly remind them that:
"I am WeedGoku69"

While playing, try to maximize your APM (action cards per minute).

If you spot a money game, resign immediately.

It's always nice to close out the game with class. If you thought your opponent played well, compliment them with a "gg" and an estimate of their power level.

That just about covers it! If you follow these tips, you should have an enjoyable experience on Dominion Online!
« Last Edit: November 02, 2017, 05:26:33 pm by WeedGoku69 »
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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #53 on: November 02, 2017, 07:31:01 pm »
+5

I also like to finish my turn, but I also think resigning in the middle of someone else's turn is fine, especially because you can continue against bot. (if it's your last turn or last couple of turn's and you're winning anyway, it doesn't matter how stupid the bot is, as long as you have fun playing your deck the way you wanted to)

For al these "do's and don'ts" you're talking about here, there's no right answer: some people prefer you resign when you're losing, some people not. Some people like chat, some people not. You can't know until you asked, and if it's to difficult to ask, it's simple: do what you like the best, then at least one of you two is happy, and there's a 50/50 percent chance the other one is also happy. (and try to remember: there's no other reason to play this game then to have fun)
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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #54 on: November 03, 2017, 01:00:18 pm »
+2

How often do people say 'gg' to (primarily) literally mean that it was a good game? To me, it's equivalent to shaking hands after a face-to-face game.
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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #55 on: November 03, 2017, 01:14:12 pm »
+2

Sometimes when I think it was an actually bad game (either poorly played, or an unfun slog, or really bad shuffle luck), I close with “thanks for the game” instead of “gg”.
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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #56 on: November 03, 2017, 01:30:19 pm »
+1

New version, with many of the changes/additions suggested in this thread. As I have been from the start, I'm still unsure how best to address the post-game 'gg'.

Feedback is appreciated. Let me know if I cut out something that you thought was good, added something awful or neglected a change you thought was important.
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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #57 on: November 03, 2017, 01:46:50 pm »
+7

As I have been from the start, I'm still unsure how best to address the post-game 'gg'.
It depends on whether you think this guide should, ahem, describe online etiquette as it exists, or prescribe how it ought to be ;)
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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #58 on: November 03, 2017, 01:47:49 pm »
+3

As I have been from the start, I'm still unsure how best to address the post-game 'gg'.
It depends on whether you think this guide should, ahem, describe online etiquette as it exists, or prescribe how it ought to be ;)

Triggered.
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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #59 on: November 03, 2017, 02:38:36 pm »
+1

How often do people say 'gg' to (primarily) literally mean that it was a good game? To me, it's equivalent to shaking hands after a face-to-face game.

It's the equivalent of saying "good" when someone asks you how your day is going. It's the automatic polite thing to do regardless of whether it's true or not.
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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #60 on: November 03, 2017, 02:55:01 pm »
0

How often do people say 'gg' to (primarily) literally mean that it was a good game? To me, it's equivalent to shaking hands after a face-to-face game.

It's the equivalent of saying "good" when someone asks you how your day is going. It's the automatic polite thing to do regardless of whether it's true or not.

Yeah, as the winner. As the loser, it's the equivalent of saying "how is your day going?".
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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #61 on: November 04, 2017, 03:17:24 pm »
+5

As an aside, I think in chess proper etiquette is that you should resign in a clearly losing position (at least at the higher levels). This to me seems like a better comparison than sports or something.
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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #62 on: November 04, 2017, 03:20:36 pm »
0

So maybe this should be "Higher level etiquette in Dominion online."

Resign never comes to mind, for me.
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sitnaltax

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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #63 on: November 05, 2017, 12:54:59 pm »
+2

As an aside, I think in chess proper etiquette is that you should resign in a clearly losing position (at least at the higher levels). This to me seems like a better comparison than sports or something.

I agree on this point (and your judgment of chess etiquette matches my experience).

On the other hand, a chess game tends to decrease in complexity as the game goes on, while a Dominion game often increases in complexity. Based on a miscount of the buys, or an overlook on piles, or missing the possibility of a dud hand, what's obviously a dead won game to one player might not be such to the other. So there are very few Dominion games played at a relatively advanced level where I'd consider not resigning be bad etiquette.
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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #64 on: November 05, 2017, 07:15:20 pm »
+11

Whenever I loose, I accuse people of hacking, just like I do whenever I play people online.
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Reykjavik

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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #65 on: December 25, 2017, 03:42:49 pm »
+3

You should not say gg until the game is over. You can say gg and resign, ending the game, but saying gg while you are either winning or it isn't clear who will win is poor etiquette.

Resigning is also fine if you have no chance of winning. I think playing it out if you have a slim chance is the way to go but if it is extremely improbable, I don't mind a resignation.

As for ending the game quickly, not everyone knows how close a margin they can get away with and still guarantee victory, and not everyone knows when they have clearly lost, and sometimes the margin needed is quite large. In an engine with explosive potential for points, for example with goons, groundskeeper, or kings court/monument, with loads of vp per turn, a large margin is necessary to safely approach the endgame. New players also may not spot that they are down too far to have any possibility of winning, and keep playing even though they will lose when the game ends no matter what. Further, if you aren't confident of your deck tracking and you don't know if your alt-vp will quite be enough buying just the last silk road, it is fine to play a slightly longer turn to ensure you get the points you need.

One thing I would add is to not play attacks that aren't necessary. Don't make them discard to militia unless you need the coins, don't play a witch when they could have a moat unless you need the cards, or the curse vp will make a difference. You playing 3 actions doesn't take much time, but forcing them to make a decision takes a lot longer.
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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #66 on: December 25, 2017, 11:10:47 pm »
0

You should not say gg until the game is over. You can say gg and resign, ending the game, but saying gg while you are either winning or it isn't clear who will win is poor etiquette.

Resigning is also fine if you have no chance of winning. I think playing it out if you have a slim chance is the way to go but if it is extremely improbable, I don't mind a resignation.

As for ending the game quickly, not everyone knows how close a margin they can get away with and still guarantee victory, and not everyone knows when they have clearly lost, and sometimes the margin needed is quite large. In an engine with explosive potential for points, for example with goons, groundskeeper, or kings court/monument, with loads of vp per turn, a large margin is necessary to safely approach the endgame. New players also may not spot that they are down too far to have any possibility of winning, and keep playing even though they will lose when the game ends no matter what. Further, if you aren't confident of your deck tracking and you don't know if your alt-vp will quite be enough buying just the last silk road, it is fine to play a slightly longer turn to ensure you get the points you need.

One thing I would add is to not play attacks that aren't necessary. Don't make them discard to militia unless you need the coins, don't play a witch when they could have a moat unless you need the cards, or the curse vp will make a difference. You playing 3 actions doesn't take much time, but forcing them to make a decision takes a lot longer.

I say gg during a game if it is exciting and/or interesting.
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markusin

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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #67 on: December 25, 2017, 11:37:40 pm »
+1

You should not say gg until the game is over. You can say gg and resign, ending the game, but saying gg while you are either winning or it isn't clear who will win is poor etiquette.

Resigning is also fine if you have no chance of winning. I think playing it out if you have a slim chance is the way to go but if it is extremely improbable, I don't mind a resignation.

As for ending the game quickly, not everyone knows how close a margin they can get away with and still guarantee victory, and not everyone knows when they have clearly lost, and sometimes the margin needed is quite large. In an engine with explosive potential for points, for example with goons, groundskeeper, or kings court/monument, with loads of vp per turn, a large margin is necessary to safely approach the endgame. New players also may not spot that they are down too far to have any possibility of winning, and keep playing even though they will lose when the game ends no matter what. Further, if you aren't confident of your deck tracking and you don't know if your alt-vp will quite be enough buying just the last silk road, it is fine to play a slightly longer turn to ensure you get the points you need.

One thing I would add is to not play attacks that aren't necessary. Don't make them discard to militia unless you need the coins, don't play a witch when they could have a moat unless you need the cards, or the curse vp will make a difference. You playing 3 actions doesn't take much time, but forcing them to make a decision takes a lot longer.

Some people will say "gg" early when assuming their opponent is able to end the game or is otherwise super far ahead. Said opponent might not see things that way from their perspective and get confused by the "gg". I happens often on streams where two players are able to discuss this mismatch in perceptions afterwards, but against random opponents this is much less likely to happen.
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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #68 on: December 26, 2017, 02:47:17 am »
+1

You should not say gg until the game is over. You can say gg and resign, ending the game, but saying gg while you are either winning or it isn't clear who will win is poor etiquette.

Resigning is also fine if you have no chance of winning. I think playing it out if you have a slim chance is the way to go but if it is extremely improbable, I don't mind a resignation.

As for ending the game quickly, not everyone knows how close a margin they can get away with and still guarantee victory, and not everyone knows when they have clearly lost, and sometimes the margin needed is quite large. In an engine with explosive potential for points, for example with goons, groundskeeper, or kings court/monument, with loads of vp per turn, a large margin is necessary to safely approach the endgame. New players also may not spot that they are down too far to have any possibility of winning, and keep playing even though they will lose when the game ends no matter what. Further, if you aren't confident of your deck tracking and you don't know if your alt-vp will quite be enough buying just the last silk road, it is fine to play a slightly longer turn to ensure you get the points you need.

One thing I would add is to not play attacks that aren't necessary. Don't make them discard to militia unless you need the coins, don't play a witch when they could have a moat unless you need the cards, or the curse vp will make a difference. You playing 3 actions doesn't take much time, but forcing them to make a decision takes a lot longer.

I say gg during a game if it is exciting and/or interesting.

Your opponents probably interpret that as you being passive-aggressive about being in a losing position.
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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #69 on: December 26, 2017, 10:24:58 am »
0

You should not say gg until the game is over. You can say gg and resign, ending the game, but saying gg while you are either winning or it isn't clear who will win is poor etiquette.

Resigning is also fine if you have no chance of winning. I think playing it out if you have a slim chance is the way to go but if it is extremely improbable, I don't mind a resignation.

As for ending the game quickly, not everyone knows how close a margin they can get away with and still guarantee victory, and not everyone knows when they have clearly lost, and sometimes the margin needed is quite large. In an engine with explosive potential for points, for example with goons, groundskeeper, or kings court/monument, with loads of vp per turn, a large margin is necessary to safely approach the endgame. New players also may not spot that they are down too far to have any possibility of winning, and keep playing even though they will lose when the game ends no matter what. Further, if you aren't confident of your deck tracking and you don't know if your alt-vp will quite be enough buying just the last silk road, it is fine to play a slightly longer turn to ensure you get the points you need.

One thing I would add is to not play attacks that aren't necessary. Don't make them discard to militia unless you need the coins, don't play a witch when they could have a moat unless you need the cards, or the curse vp will make a difference. You playing 3 actions doesn't take much time, but forcing them to make a decision takes a lot longer.

I say gg during a game if it is exciting and/or interesting.

Your opponents probably interpret that as you being passive-aggressive about being in a losing position.

Maybe, but given the context, I kind of doubt it. Most times when I say it it isn't clear who is ahead.
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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #70 on: December 26, 2017, 10:32:08 am »
+2

You should not say gg until the game is over. You can say gg and resign, ending the game, but saying gg while you are either winning or it isn't clear who will win is poor etiquette.

Resigning is also fine if you have no chance of winning. I think playing it out if you have a slim chance is the way to go but if it is extremely improbable, I don't mind a resignation.

As for ending the game quickly, not everyone knows how close a margin they can get away with and still guarantee victory, and not everyone knows when they have clearly lost, and sometimes the margin needed is quite large. In an engine with explosive potential for points, for example with goons, groundskeeper, or kings court/monument, with loads of vp per turn, a large margin is necessary to safely approach the endgame. New players also may not spot that they are down too far to have any possibility of winning, and keep playing even though they will lose when the game ends no matter what. Further, if you aren't confident of your deck tracking and you don't know if your alt-vp will quite be enough buying just the last silk road, it is fine to play a slightly longer turn to ensure you get the points you need.

One thing I would add is to not play attacks that aren't necessary. Don't make them discard to militia unless you need the coins, don't play a witch when they could have a moat unless you need the cards, or the curse vp will make a difference. You playing 3 actions doesn't take much time, but forcing them to make a decision takes a lot longer.

I say gg during a game if it is exciting and/or interesting.

Your opponents probably interpret that as you being passive-aggressive about being in a losing position.

Maybe, but given the context, I kind of doubt it. Most times when I say it it isn't clear who is ahead.

If a game is interesting/exciting, then it is maybe worth your time to spell out what you mean and say "this is a good game" or something to that effect. Why risk ruining a player's mood by giving them a chance to misinterpret a "gg".
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Chappy7

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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #71 on: December 26, 2017, 11:38:20 am »
0

You should not say gg until the game is over. You can say gg and resign, ending the game, but saying gg while you are either winning or it isn't clear who will win is poor etiquette.

Resigning is also fine if you have no chance of winning. I think playing it out if you have a slim chance is the way to go but if it is extremely improbable, I don't mind a resignation.

As for ending the game quickly, not everyone knows how close a margin they can get away with and still guarantee victory, and not everyone knows when they have clearly lost, and sometimes the margin needed is quite large. In an engine with explosive potential for points, for example with goons, groundskeeper, or kings court/monument, with loads of vp per turn, a large margin is necessary to safely approach the endgame. New players also may not spot that they are down too far to have any possibility of winning, and keep playing even though they will lose when the game ends no matter what. Further, if you aren't confident of your deck tracking and you don't know if your alt-vp will quite be enough buying just the last silk road, it is fine to play a slightly longer turn to ensure you get the points you need.

One thing I would add is to not play attacks that aren't necessary. Don't make them discard to militia unless you need the coins, don't play a witch when they could have a moat unless you need the cards, or the curse vp will make a difference. You playing 3 actions doesn't take much time, but forcing them to make a decision takes a lot longer.

I say gg during a game if it is exciting and/or interesting.

Your opponents probably interpret that as you being passive-aggressive about being in a losing position.

Maybe, but given the context, I kind of doubt it. Most times when I say it it isn't clear who is ahead.

If a game is interesting/exciting, then it is maybe worth your time to spell out what you mean and say "this is a good game" or something to that effect. Why risk ruining a player's mood by giving them a chance to misinterpret a "gg".

That's way too much work.  My poor fingers might fall off if I type all of those letters.
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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #72 on: December 26, 2017, 12:25:05 pm »
+13

i really like it when people say 'gg' before the game ends, because of that i sometimes notice a 3-pile which i otherwise wouldn't have seen :p
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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #73 on: December 27, 2017, 10:18:41 am »
+3

You should not say gg until the game is over. You can say gg and resign, ending the game, but saying gg while you are either winning or it isn't clear who will win is poor etiquette.

Resigning is also fine if you have no chance of winning. I think playing it out if you have a slim chance is the way to go but if it is extremely improbable, I don't mind a resignation.

As for ending the game quickly, not everyone knows how close a margin they can get away with and still guarantee victory, and not everyone knows when they have clearly lost, and sometimes the margin needed is quite large. In an engine with explosive potential for points, for example with goons, groundskeeper, or kings court/monument, with loads of vp per turn, a large margin is necessary to safely approach the endgame. New players also may not spot that they are down too far to have any possibility of winning, and keep playing even though they will lose when the game ends no matter what. Further, if you aren't confident of your deck tracking and you don't know if your alt-vp will quite be enough buying just the last silk road, it is fine to play a slightly longer turn to ensure you get the points you need.

One thing I would add is to not play attacks that aren't necessary. Don't make them discard to militia unless you need the coins, don't play a witch when they could have a moat unless you need the cards, or the curse vp will make a difference. You playing 3 actions doesn't take much time, but forcing them to make a decision takes a lot longer.

I say gg during a game if it is exciting and/or interesting.

Your opponents probably interpret that as you being passive-aggressive about being in a losing position.

Maybe, but given the context, I kind of doubt it. Most times when I say it it isn't clear who is ahead.

If a game is interesting/exciting, then it is maybe worth your time to spell out what you mean and say "this is a good game" or something to that effect. Why risk ruining a player's mood by giving them a chance to misinterpret a "gg".

I like to think I've never played someone emotionally fragile enough to have their mood ruined by me being perceived as passive aggressive.
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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #74 on: December 27, 2017, 11:50:25 pm »
+5

gg
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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #75 on: December 28, 2017, 12:06:37 am »
+1

"gg" : handshake after a ballgame :: "Great Game. Thanks!" : verbal congratulations and victor acknowledgment after a ballgame
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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #76 on: December 28, 2017, 12:41:40 am »
0

Okay so now there's this thing where the end of the game is announced, and then you click a thing and it shows you the final score and so on. Do you say gg before or after clicking the thing?
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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #77 on: December 28, 2017, 12:43:06 am »
0

You should not say gg until the game is over. You can say gg and resign, ending the game, but saying gg while you are either winning or it isn't clear who will win is poor etiquette.

Resigning is also fine if you have no chance of winning. I think playing it out if you have a slim chance is the way to go but if it is extremely improbable, I don't mind a resignation.

As for ending the game quickly, not everyone knows how close a margin they can get away with and still guarantee victory, and not everyone knows when they have clearly lost, and sometimes the margin needed is quite large. In an engine with explosive potential for points, for example with goons, groundskeeper, or kings court/monument, with loads of vp per turn, a large margin is necessary to safely approach the endgame. New players also may not spot that they are down too far to have any possibility of winning, and keep playing even though they will lose when the game ends no matter what. Further, if you aren't confident of your deck tracking and you don't know if your alt-vp will quite be enough buying just the last silk road, it is fine to play a slightly longer turn to ensure you get the points you need.

One thing I would add is to not play attacks that aren't necessary. Don't make them discard to militia unless you need the coins, don't play a witch when they could have a moat unless you need the cards, or the curse vp will make a difference. You playing 3 actions doesn't take much time, but forcing them to make a decision takes a lot longer.

I say gg during a game if it is exciting and/or interesting.

Your opponents probably interpret that as you being passive-aggressive about being in a losing position.

Maybe, but given the context, I kind of doubt it. Most times when I say it it isn't clear who is ahead.

If a game is interesting/exciting, then it is maybe worth your time to spell out what you mean and say "this is a good game" or something to that effect. Why risk ruining a player's mood by giving them a chance to misinterpret a "gg".

I like to think I've never played someone emotionally fragile enough to have their mood ruined by me being perceived as passive aggressive.

Well, it would put me on edge if you said that to me in the middle of a game, and I would make an effort not to chat with you for the rest of the game in case you decide to explode due to my "luck" or whatever
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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #78 on: December 28, 2017, 01:00:28 am »
+2

Okay so now there's this thing where the end of the game is announced, and then you click a thing and it shows you the final score and so on. Do you say gg before or after clicking the thing?

I like to say it before, mostly because the current message ".... has left the table" is misleading. Unless you say something before clicking it makes it look like you just left without saying anything.
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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #79 on: December 30, 2017, 02:36:33 am »
0

Has anyone else noticed people resigning at the very beginning of a game? I've noticed lately that like 5% of games people will just leave after like 5 seconds. Is it because there are cards they don't recognize/like? Is it because they are already unlucky (e.g. opening 5/2 on a board where 4/3 is much better)? Or what? Just wondering if anyone else has seen this I guess ..

Or maybe people just don't like playing with me  :-\
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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #80 on: December 30, 2017, 07:22:59 am »
0

Has anyone else noticed people resigning at the very beginning of a game? I've noticed lately that like 5% of games people will just leave after like 5 seconds. Is it because there are cards they don't recognize/like? Is it because they are already unlucky (e.g. opening 5/2 on a board where 4/3 is much better)? Or what? Just wondering if anyone else has seen this I guess ..

Or maybe people just don't like playing with me  :-\

I once had an opponent resign several games in a row on turn 1 after they lost one game and kept getting automatched against me.
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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #81 on: December 30, 2017, 10:51:19 pm »
+1

Has anyone else noticed people resigning at the very beginning of a game? I've noticed lately that like 5% of games people will just leave after like 5 seconds. Is it because there are cards they don't recognize/like? Is it because they are already unlucky (e.g. opening 5/2 on a board where 4/3 is much better)? Or what? Just wondering if anyone else has seen this I guess ..

Or maybe people just don't like playing with me  :-\

I once had an opponent resign several games in a row on turn 1 after they lost one game and kept getting automatched against me.

Yeah, I'll have stuff like this happen to me occasionally; I guess I just assume that my opponent doesn't want to play against me.

I did have an opponent once who looked at the board, saw scrying pool on it, said "to boring", and resigned. (I know it was because of scrying pool because he told me so during a series of comments in our next game, where he voiced his disapproval of my choice to play an engine)
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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #82 on: January 11, 2018, 05:52:02 pm »
0

Is it bad etiquette to do something that requires meaningless opponent input after you've effectively ended the game? So e.g. you buy the last Province, then play a Raider (barring edge cases like opponent getting points from Tunnel-Gold-Museum). I can certainly see how this would be annoying to the opponent, but I guess I have a habit of just mindlessly clicking through whatever SHiT prompts me for at the end of the game that is meaningless -- exchanging Travelers, paying debt, etc. And vice versa - I mindlessly click stuff when I see my opponent has ended the game and I'm prompted to do stuff (like discard). I guess I just don't think about it that much / don't care, but I have noticed it seems to piss people off every once in a while. Curious what the consensus is.
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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #83 on: January 11, 2018, 06:52:46 pm »
+1

I would be annoyed, but not enough to complain.
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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #84 on: January 12, 2018, 01:27:20 am »
+1

Is it bad etiquette to do something that requires meaningless opponent input after you've effectively ended the game? So e.g. you buy the last Province, then play a Raider (barring edge cases like opponent getting points from Tunnel-Gold-Museum). I can certainly see how this would be annoying to the opponent, but I guess I have a habit of just mindlessly clicking through whatever SHiT prompts me for at the end of the game that is meaningless -- exchanging Travelers, paying debt, etc. And vice versa - I mindlessly click stuff when I see my opponent has ended the game and I'm prompted to do stuff (like discard). I guess I just don't think about it that much / don't care, but I have noticed it seems to piss people off every once in a while. Curious what the consensus is.

Well, it's poor etiquette, but it's also their own fault for not resigning at the point where you already bought the last Province.
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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #85 on: January 12, 2018, 03:25:51 am »
+2

Is it bad etiquette to do something that requires meaningless opponent input after you've effectively ended the game? So e.g. you buy the last Province, then play a Raider (barring edge cases like opponent getting points from Tunnel-Gold-Museum). I can certainly see how this would be annoying to the opponent, but I guess I have a habit of just mindlessly clicking through whatever SHiT prompts me for at the end of the game that is meaningless -- exchanging Travelers, paying debt, etc. And vice versa - I mindlessly click stuff when I see my opponent has ended the game and I'm prompted to do stuff (like discard). I guess I just don't think about it that much / don't care, but I have noticed it seems to piss people off every once in a while. Curious what the consensus is.
Mindlessly clicking through Travellers is actually dangerous if the game ended in a Traveller pileout.

On topic, I don't think it matters much when your opponent can always resign. I try to not make my opponent do more than necessary when I already know I can end the game, but they don't know. For example, with a Legionary in hand and enough buying power to end it, don't reveal the Gold.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2018, 03:27:29 am by faust »
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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #86 on: January 12, 2018, 05:54:24 am »
+1

Mindlessly clicking through Travellers is actually dangerous if the game ended in a Traveller pileout.

Does this mean that you can undo a three-pile ending if one of those piles is Page or Peasant and you played that card during your turn? I never knew that.
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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #87 on: January 12, 2018, 06:16:04 am »
+1

Mindlessly clicking through Travellers is actually dangerous if the game ended in a Traveller pileout.

Does this mean that you can undo a three-pile ending if one of those piles is Page or Peasant and you played that card during your turn? I never knew that.

Yes. It doesn't matter if three piles were empty at some earlier point during your turn, it's only checked at the end.
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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #88 on: January 12, 2018, 12:02:06 pm »
+2

Is it bad etiquette to do something that requires meaningless opponent input after you've effectively ended the game? So e.g. you buy the last Province, then play a Raider (barring edge cases like opponent getting points from Tunnel-Gold-Museum). I can certainly see how this would be annoying to the opponent, but I guess I have a habit of just mindlessly clicking through whatever SHiT prompts me for at the end of the game that is meaningless -- exchanging Travelers, paying debt, etc. And vice versa - I mindlessly click stuff when I see my opponent has ended the game and I'm prompted to do stuff (like discard). I guess I just don't think about it that much / don't care, but I have noticed it seems to piss people off every once in a while. Curious what the consensus is.
Mindlessly clicking through Travellers is actually dangerous if the game ended in a Traveller pileout.

On topic, I don't think it matters much when your opponent can always resign. I try to not make my opponent do more than necessary when I already know I can end the game, but they don't know. For example, with a Legionary in hand and enough buying power to end it, don't reveal the Gold.

Thinking about such things might take more time than just revealing the Gold.
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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #89 on: January 12, 2018, 12:20:27 pm »
+1

Does this mean that you can undo a three-pile ending if one of those piles is Page or Peasant and you played that card during your turn? I never knew that.
Ambassador is the classic way to have an empty pile become non-empty.
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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #90 on: January 12, 2018, 01:38:18 pm »
+1

Does this mean that you can undo a three-pile ending if one of those piles is Page or Peasant and you played that card during your turn? I never knew that.
Ambassador is the classic way to have an empty pile become non-empty.

Encampment might be the most common way this happens these days.
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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #91 on: January 12, 2018, 01:49:59 pm »
+1

Is it bad etiquette to do something that requires meaningless opponent input after you've effectively ended the game? So e.g. you buy the last Province, then play a Raider (barring edge cases like opponent getting points from Tunnel-Gold-Museum). I can certainly see how this would be annoying to the opponent, but I guess I have a habit of just mindlessly clicking through whatever SHiT prompts me for at the end of the game that is meaningless -- exchanging Travelers, paying debt, etc. And vice versa - I mindlessly click stuff when I see my opponent has ended the game and I'm prompted to do stuff (like discard). I guess I just don't think about it that much / don't care, but I have noticed it seems to piss people off every once in a while. Curious what the consensus is.

There's a real balance between playing your turn as normal and playing not to run up the score or needlessly prolong the game. I'm sure there are cases where people have tried to be overly-considerate and subsequently make a game-deciding mistake.
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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #92 on: January 17, 2018, 09:07:57 am »
0

Legionary.

This was a real issue. I try my best to play nice, but I also like to win. Legionary creates a real issue since this misclic is so obvious and so severe for the opponent if they grant it. First time it happened to me and I let it pass just because I didn't want my opponent to come in the position to choose between sportsmanship and will to win- it was my mistake, fair enough. Later on though he did the same one, and this was at a much more critical stage, if the attack would have hit me I would most probably lose. I denied, I don't want to lose. My opponent went mad.

Did I wrong? I mean, from isotropic I learnt that misclics is part of Dominion Online in one way or another. Don't play careless. Most mistakes don't effect the opponent directly and is easy to grant, but this one, man.. I really wish it wasn't there, in what situation do you not want to reveal the gold? 

Dear opponent, I'm sorry. I hope I don't have to do it again, but honestly I think I would've..

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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #93 on: January 17, 2018, 09:13:10 am »
+2

When up against someone I know would not forgive a misclick, I take a good look at the area my cursor is in everytime before my finger even touches the left button. Of course this takes longer. Want to play more games in the same time? Undo my misclicks and foolish mistakes.
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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #94 on: January 17, 2018, 04:28:24 pm »
+4

Legionary.

This was a real issue. I try my best to play nice, but I also like to win. Legionary creates a real issue since this misclic is so obvious and so severe for the opponent if they grant it. First time it happened to me and I let it pass just because I didn't want my opponent to come in the position to choose between sportsmanship and will to win- it was my mistake, fair enough. Later on though he did the same one, and this was at a much more critical stage, if the attack would have hit me I would most probably lose. I denied, I don't want to lose. My opponent went mad.

Did I wrong? I mean, from isotropic I learnt that misclics is part of Dominion Online in one way or another. Don't play careless. Most mistakes don't effect the opponent directly and is easy to grant, but this one, man.. I really wish it wasn't there, in what situation do you not want to reveal the gold? 

Dear opponent, I'm sorry. I hope I don't have to do it again, but honestly I think I would've..
Yes, you did do wrong.
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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #95 on: January 17, 2018, 06:42:54 pm »
0

Hey, I have a somewhat related question.  I had a game the other day, and my opponent seemed pretty upset that I was getting "lucky" (my chariot race got me lots of points.  I trashed all my coppers and estates and he had lots of spoils, so it didn't seem too lucky to me) at the end of the game he/she said "gg, nl"  what is nl?
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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #96 on: January 17, 2018, 08:23:06 pm »
+3

Hey, I have a somewhat related question.  I had a game the other day, and my opponent seemed pretty upset that I was getting "lucky" (my chariot race got me lots of points.  I trashed all my coppers and estates and he had lots of spoils, so it didn't seem too lucky to me) at the end of the game he/she said "gg, nl"  what is nl?
Let me UrbanDictionary that for you. https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=NL
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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #97 on: January 17, 2018, 08:57:03 pm »
+3

Hey, I have a somewhat related question.  I had a game the other day, and my opponent seemed pretty upset that I was getting "lucky" (my chariot race got me lots of points.  I trashed all my coppers and estates and he had lots of spoils, so it didn't seem too lucky to me) at the end of the game he/she said "gg, nl"  what is nl?
Let me UrbanDictionary that for you. https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=NL

I think he probably meant "nice luck"
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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #98 on: January 20, 2018, 02:24:15 pm »
0

Did I wrong? I mean, from isotropic I learnt that misclics is part of Dominion Online in one way or another. Don't play careless. Most mistakes don't effect the opponent directly and is easy to grant, but this one, man.. I really wish it wasn't there, in what situation do you not want to reveal the gold? 

Dear opponent, I'm sorry. I hope I don't have to do it again, but honestly I think I would've..

Yeah you did wrong and you're obviously not sorry.
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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #99 on: January 20, 2018, 02:36:03 pm »
0

Did I wrong? I mean, from isotropic I learnt that misclics is part of Dominion Online in one way or another. Don't play careless. Most mistakes don't effect the opponent directly and is easy to grant, but this one, man.. I really wish it wasn't there, in what situation do you not want to reveal the gold? 

Dear opponent, I'm sorry. I hope I don't have to do it again, but honestly I think I would've..

Yeah you did wrong and you're obviously not sorry.

Murgh. You're wrong. I'm sorry that the misclick-possibility is there to begin with, since I think it shouldn't be. But alright, then I press the undo button myself the first time and ignore the feeling that I'm a prick doing so. If you read my post you should notice that I'm uncertain what decision that is seen as the unsportful one. My judgement was that the sportful move is to not asking to undo a legionary-misclick. fd that's wrong I change and will ask about it in the future.
It feels weird though.

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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #100 on: January 20, 2018, 02:42:44 pm »
+3

It's not clear from your post whether you got an undo on your own misclick.

If you did not ask for an undo, or if you asked for an undo and was not granted one, then I think your move wasn't unsporting at all.  It wasn't sporting, but it also isn't unsporting.  It's just baseline expected behavior.

If you did get an undo, then I think your move is slightly unsporting.  But I wouldn't consider it egregiously out of line.  One never has an obligation to agree to an undo, except maybe if the opponent had granted one to you.
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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #101 on: January 20, 2018, 03:10:42 pm »
0

It's not clear from your post whether you got an undo on your own misclick.

If you did not ask for an undo, or if you asked for an undo and was not granted one, then I think your move wasn't unsporting at all.  It wasn't sporting, but it also isn't unsporting.  It's just baseline expected behavior.

If you did get an undo, then I think your move is slightly unsporting.  But I wouldn't consider it egregiously out of line.  One never has an obligation to agree to an undo, except maybe if the opponent had granted one to you.

I didn't ask for it and maybe I should have mentioned that, but I don't really like to use the chat so that didn't cross my mind.

I mean, I've been reading a lot about what is seen as courtesy about undoes on the forum and it surprises me a little that two people can say "you did wrong" without even explaining why on issues like these. Why have undoes as a choice if it's so clearly wrong to deny something that will cause you to loose? Me and my friends go for never ask for undoes since we miss isotroopic and it's hard to remember to change track when playing with strangers but I'm trying to, I promise..

 

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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #102 on: January 20, 2018, 03:19:27 pm »
0

I mean, I've been reading a lot about what is seen as courtesy about undoes on the forum and it surprises me a little that two people can say "you did wrong" without even explaining why on issues like these. Why have undoes as a choice if it's so clearly wrong to deny something that will cause you to loose?

Because sometimes people are working on a small screen, or have a jumpy internet connection, or for any number of reasons they obviously misclick. You did wrong because you knew it was a misclick and that your opponent had played better than you, so you did something that you knew was unsportsmanlike because you wanted to win regardless.
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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #103 on: January 20, 2018, 03:24:00 pm »
+7

It's not like it's morally wrong to deny no-info undos or anything, I'm just going to blacklist you if you do.
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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #104 on: January 20, 2018, 07:40:03 pm »
+1

Legionary.

This was a real issue. I try my best to play nice, but I also like to win. Legionary creates a real issue since this misclic is so obvious and so severe for the opponent if they grant it. First time it happened to me and I let it pass just because I didn't want my opponent to come in the position to choose between sportsmanship and will to win- it was my mistake, fair enough. Later on though he did the same one, and this was at a much more critical stage, if the attack would have hit me I would most probably lose. I denied, I don't want to lose. My opponent went mad.

Did I wrong? I mean, from isotropic I learnt that misclics is part of Dominion Online in one way or another. Don't play careless. Most mistakes don't effect the opponent directly and is easy to grant, but this one, man.. I really wish it wasn't there, in what situation do you not want to reveal the gold? 

Dear opponent, I'm sorry. I hope I don't have to do it again, but honestly I think I would've..
Yes, you did do wrong.

I think it's totally fair. You didn't ask for it yourself, so it's logical you don't want to grant it to the other person. The difficult thing is your opponent probably didn't realize it allready happened once t you, so maybe you just should have said it that way in the hope they would understand and get less mad.
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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #105 on: January 21, 2018, 03:36:49 am »
+1

Legionary.

This was a real issue. I try my best to play nice, but I also like to win. Legionary creates a real issue since this misclic is so obvious and so severe for the opponent if they grant it. First time it happened to me and I let it pass just because I didn't want my opponent to come in the position to choose between sportsmanship and will to win- it was my mistake, fair enough. Later on though he did the same one, and this was at a much more critical stage, if the attack would have hit me I would most probably lose. I denied, I don't want to lose. My opponent went mad.

Did I wrong? I mean, from isotropic I learnt that misclics is part of Dominion Online in one way or another. Don't play careless. Most mistakes don't effect the opponent directly and is easy to grant, but this one, man.. I really wish it wasn't there, in what situation do you not want to reveal the gold? 

Dear opponent, I'm sorry. I hope I don't have to do it again, but honestly I think I would've..
Yes, you did do wrong.

I think it's totally fair. You didn't ask for it yourself, so it's logical you don't want to grant it to the other person.
No, that has nothing to do with logic, only with imposing your own views about what is correct behaviour on others.
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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #106 on: January 21, 2018, 04:06:36 am »
+8

Why have undoes as a choice if it's so clearly wrong to deny something that will cause you to loose?
The undo feature is there because of all the people that want it, including Jay and Stef.

No-new-information undos should be automatically granted (except conceivably in the controversial case of, you know your top card due to e.g. Courtyard but then forget it and play something that draws it or whatever). They aren't because that would be more work, and Stef has been working on other things.

As long as the software does not automatically grant no-new-information undos, it's up to you whether or not you want to grant them. I recommend always granting opponent undos (except silly extremes like undoing to the start of the game) and never asking for your own. Builds character. When testing online Nocturne, I did use undos though. The bot never complained, and I've got plenty of character.
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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #107 on: April 21, 2018, 01:54:27 pm »
+15

Is this good "good luck" etiquette?

Opponent when the game starts: "good luck!"
*I open 5/2 on a Count/Alms board*
Opponent: "#$@#$% $#% SO F$#%^&G LUCKY! @#$$#"
Me: "hey, you said 'good luck!'"
Opponent: "that's not what i meant"
*opponent yells more profanities, resigns*
« Last Edit: April 21, 2018, 01:58:09 pm by Dingan »
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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #108 on: April 22, 2018, 12:37:26 pm »
+2

It's optimal for all of your opponents to be very lucky, because then when you win you can credit your skill, and when you lose you can chalk it up to bad luck.
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Re: Etiquette in Dominion Online
« Reply #109 on: May 21, 2018, 08:26:47 pm »
0

Hey everyone, my name on there is Mediocre. Just wanted to point out that Parmenas is particularly rude and I have heard this from other players as well. He complains relentlessly, always loses due to bad luck and always rubs it in when he wins.
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