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Author Topic: The Poor House challenge: how much money can you lose?  (Read 531 times)

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jonaskoelker

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The Poor House challenge: how much money can you lose?
« on: October 29, 2017, 02:56:48 pm »
+2

As the title says, the Poor House challenge is this: play poor house in a kingdom of your design, such as to maximize [the amount of money you have before playing Poor House] minus [the amount of money you have after playing Poor House]. That is, maximize the net loss.

This is not quite the same as maximizing the amount of treasures you reveal: if you have $0, play Poor House and reveal 5 treasures, you have $0 afterwards as well, for a net loss of $0 rather than 1. If you had $1+ and made the same play, you would lose $1. To lose money, you must first have that money (modulo the +$4 from Poor House).

I'm highly confident that the worst possible score is -5: if your +$1 token is on Poor House and you reveal no treasures, you gain $5, which is the same as losing -$5.

I'm even more confident that the best score is greater than 0 ;)

Here are some variables you might want to tweak when picking a kingdom:
  • The number of players in the game (2-6).
  • Whether or not to use Colonies.
  • Whether or not to use Shelters.
  • Whether to have 0-2 or a greater number of events plus landmarks.
  • The size of the Black Market deck (from 0 up to the number of randomizers not in the kingdom).
Pick whichever set of variables you like the best. Colonies without Prosperity randomizers is cool too, likewise for Shelters and Dark Ages. If your kingdom is within the limitations of recommended play and/or what the online implementation allows, you win double the bragging rights ;)

Your opponents play as follows: they never play any cards. They never buy anything. When one of them has to make a decision not covered by these rules, they all resign and the game ends.
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jonaskoelker

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Re: The Poor House challenge: how much money can you lose?
« Reply #1 on: October 29, 2017, 02:57:34 pm »
0

Leaderboard

3 players:

287 (pending clarification)

253 (pending clarification)

List of treasures

Not including Nocturne, I think Dominion has 29 non-basic treasures. Grouped by cost, and bracketed when they interact weirdly with the supply, they are:

(2) 0*: (Diadem), (Spoils)
(2) 2: Coin of the Realm, Fool's Gold
(3) 3: <Humble Castle>, Loan, Masterpiece
(1) 3p: Philosopher's Stone
(3) 4: [Rocks], Quarry, Talisman
(14) 5: Cache, Capital, Charm, Contraband, Counterfeit, Crown, Horn of Plenty, Ill-Gotten Gains, [Plunder], Relic, Royal Seal, Stash, Treasure Trove, Venture
(2) 6: {Harem}, Hoard
(1) 7: Bank
(1) 8<8>: [Fortune]

The amount in the supply, by bracket type, is:
(): 0,
<>: 1 or 2 (and has the Victory type)
[]: 5
{}: 8 or 12 (and has the Victory type)
« Last Edit: November 03, 2017, 03:52:11 pm by jonaskoelker »
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jonaskoelker

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Re: The Poor House challenge: how much money can you lose?
« Reply #2 on: October 29, 2017, 03:05:55 pm »
0

Here's a terribly awfully poor* solution: (* of course the pun is intended)

Kingdom: Ratcatcher, Baker, Poor House, Villa, whatever — Events/Landmarks: Expedition.

Open Baker + Poor House, get a Ratcatcher on your second shuffle.
Use Baker to gain 2 5 coin tokens.
Use Ratcatcher to trash 3xEstate, 1xCopper and 1xBaker, then put Ratcatcher on the mat.
Once this is set up, your deck is [Poor House, 6xCopper].
Buy Expedition. On your next hand, spend 2 coin tokens for $2, then play Poor House revealing 6xCopper, taking you to $0.
On your next hand, spend 5 coin tokens, buy Villa, play Villa, then play Poor House revealing 6xCopper, taking you to $0.

Net loss = $2

This works for all combinations of variables.

(Edits in bold and strikethrough; thanks to Qvist for finding a brain fart on my part.)
« Last Edit: October 29, 2017, 07:11:19 pm by jonaskoelker »
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Qvist

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Re: The Poor House challenge: how much money can you lose?
« Reply #3 on: October 29, 2017, 04:49:21 pm »
+3

How do you spend coin tokens before playing Poor House?
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humcalc216

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Re: The Poor House challenge: how much money can you lose?
« Reply #4 on: October 29, 2017, 06:27:11 pm »
+4

I can get 253 (edit), which I'm sure can be optimized significantly.

Kingdom: (Note: I'm intentionally not using Nocturne cards)
Fool's Gold (bane)
Black Market
Cache
Capital
Charm
Contraband
Royal Seal
Treasure Trove
Harem
Hoard
Bank

BM Deck contains (at minimum): Hermit, Lurker, Young Witch, Poor House, Fortune, Philosopher's Stone, Bandit Camp, Tournament, Rocks, Plunder, Talisman, Ill-Gotten Gains, Humble Castle, Crown, Stash, Horn of Plenty, Coin of the Realm, Loan, Quarry, Venture, Counterfeit, Relic, Bazaar, Mining Village

Setup: Deck contains 10 Madmen, a Trusty Steed, a Diadem, a Poor House, 15 Spoils, 11 (edit) Platina, 10 Banks, 10 Capitals, and all but one card of every other kingdom pile.  It's a 3-player game, so there are 12 Harems (of which you have 11).  You also have one copy of every treasure in the Black Market.  Assuming I counted correctly, this is 267 treasures.  Additionally, you have a Bazaar and a Mining Village, and you still have a Bandit Camp.  (You also probably have other cards in your deck, such as a Tournament, a Province, and the Lurker which you used to get the Hermit back a bunch of times and get more Madmen, but these cards don't matter.)

Start: You have 5 Madmen in hand and 5 on top of your deck

Play 8 Madmen to draw your deck.  Play Bazaar, Mining Village (trashing it), and Bandit Camp.  Play 9 Black Markets.  On the ninth one, play Treasure Trove (gaining the last Copper and Gold), then 5 Capitals, then 8 Banks, then a Fortune, for a total of $258.  Play Steed for coins and Silvers (gaining the last Silver).  Play Madman to draw the new treasures.  Play Poor House.

Your hand contains 253 treasures, assuming I counted correctly.  Before you reveal your hand, you had $264.  Afterward, you have $11, for a score of 253.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2017, 09:34:09 pm by humcalc216 »
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jonaskoelker

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Re: The Poor House challenge: how much money can you lose?
« Reply #5 on: October 29, 2017, 06:51:40 pm »
0

How do you spend coin tokens before playing Poor House?
Uhh, by cheating I guess :D
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jonaskoelker

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Re: The Poor House challenge: how much money can you lose?
« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2017, 06:59:16 pm »
0

I can get [...] which I'm sure can be optimized significantly.
I think it can :)

Setup: Deck contains [...] 12 Platina, 10 Banks, 10 Capitals [...].  It's a 3-player game.
Doesn't that mean the game has already ended on the 3-pile condition?
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humcalc216

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Re: The Poor House challenge: how much money can you lose?
« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2017, 07:07:26 pm »
0

Right.  I meant to have only 2 piles empty.  So subtract 1 from my total.
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crj

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Re: The Poor House challenge: how much money can you lose?
« Reply #8 on: October 29, 2017, 09:08:51 pm »
+4

How do you spend coin tokens before playing Poor House?
Villa?
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faust

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Re: The Poor House challenge: how much money can you lose?
« Reply #9 on: October 30, 2017, 05:35:53 am »
+3

I can get 253 (edit), which I'm sure can be optimized significantly.

Kingdom: (Note: I'm intentionally not using Nocturne cards)
Fool's Gold (bane)
Black Market
Cache
Capital
Charm
Contraband
Royal Seal
Treasure Trove
Harem
Hoard
Bank

BM Deck contains (at minimum): Hermit, Lurker, Young Witch, Poor House, Fortune, Philosopher's Stone, Bandit Camp, Tournament, Rocks, Plunder, Talisman, Ill-Gotten Gains, Humble Castle, Crown, Stash, Horn of Plenty, Coin of the Realm, Loan, Quarry, Venture, Counterfeit, Relic, Bazaar, Mining Village

Setup: Deck contains 10 Madmen, a Trusty Steed, a Diadem, a Poor House, 15 Spoils, 11 (edit) Platina, 10 Banks, 10 Capitals, and all but one card of every other kingdom pile.  It's a 3-player game, so there are 12 Harems (of which you have 11).  You also have one copy of every treasure in the Black Market.  Assuming I counted correctly, this is 267 treasures.  Additionally, you have a Bazaar and a Mining Village, and you still have a Bandit Camp.  (You also probably have other cards in your deck, such as a Tournament, a Province, and the Lurker which you used to get the Hermit back a bunch of times and get more Madmen, but these cards don't matter.)

Start: You have 5 Madmen in hand and 5 on top of your deck

Play 8 Madmen to draw your deck.  Play Bazaar, Mining Village (trashing it), and Bandit Camp.  Play 9 Black Markets.  On the ninth one, play Treasure Trove (gaining the last Copper and Gold), then 5 Capitals, then 8 Banks, then a Fortune, for a total of $258.  Play Steed for coins and Silvers (gaining the last Silver).  Play Madman to draw the new treasures.  Play Poor House.

Your hand contains 253 treasures, assuming I counted correctly.  Before you reveal your hand, you had $264.  Afterward, you have $11, for a score of 253.

You can rather easily improve on this by

1. on the last Black Market play, buy Mandarin from the Black Market to topdeck all Treasures you played so far and be able to draw them with the last Madman (before that, make sure you played enough Treasures to get at least $293).
2. Replace one of your kingdom treasures with Crown, put Ferry+Inheritance in the kingdom, inherit Crowns. In 3p, this can give you a maximum of 21 Estate-Crowns that are also Treasures.


This puts the maximum score (for 3p) up to 287. (EDIT: Had to remove $1 due to the Crown set aside by Inheritance).

Also, I'm pretty sure you can put a bunch of gainers in the Black Market in order to gain all the remaining Treasures in the supply.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2017, 05:44:27 am by faust »
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jonaskoelker

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Re: The Poor House challenge: how much money can you lose?
« Reply #10 on: October 30, 2017, 01:41:02 pm »
0

How do you spend coin tokens before playing Poor House?
Villa?
Just for the sake of clarity and accuracy: first I posted a wrong solution, then Qvist pointed out the problem, then I edited my solution, then you posted "Villa?" — That Villa is the correct response is obvious now, but only thanks to Qvist catching my, uh, "omission of a detail" in the first place.
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humcalc216

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Re: The Poor House challenge: how much money can you lose?
« Reply #11 on: October 30, 2017, 03:43:02 pm »
0

I can get 253 (edit), which I'm sure can be optimized significantly.

Kingdom: (Note: I'm intentionally not using Nocturne cards)
Fool's Gold (bane)
Black Market
Cache
Capital
Charm
Contraband
Royal Seal
Treasure Trove
Harem
Hoard
Bank

BM Deck contains (at minimum): Hermit, Lurker, Young Witch, Poor House, Fortune, Philosopher's Stone, Bandit Camp, Tournament, Rocks, Plunder, Talisman, Ill-Gotten Gains, Humble Castle, Crown, Stash, Horn of Plenty, Coin of the Realm, Loan, Quarry, Venture, Counterfeit, Relic, Bazaar, Mining Village

Setup: Deck contains 10 Madmen, a Trusty Steed, a Diadem, a Poor House, 15 Spoils, 11 (edit) Platina, 10 Banks, 10 Capitals, and all but one card of every other kingdom pile.  It's a 3-player game, so there are 12 Harems (of which you have 11).  You also have one copy of every treasure in the Black Market.  Assuming I counted correctly, this is 267 treasures.  Additionally, you have a Bazaar and a Mining Village, and you still have a Bandit Camp.  (You also probably have other cards in your deck, such as a Tournament, a Province, and the Lurker which you used to get the Hermit back a bunch of times and get more Madmen, but these cards don't matter.)

Start: You have 5 Madmen in hand and 5 on top of your deck

Play 8 Madmen to draw your deck.  Play Bazaar, Mining Village (trashing it), and Bandit Camp.  Play 9 Black Markets.  On the ninth one, play Treasure Trove (gaining the last Copper and Gold), then 5 Capitals, then 8 Banks, then a Fortune, for a total of $258.  Play Steed for coins and Silvers (gaining the last Silver).  Play Madman to draw the new treasures.  Play Poor House.

Your hand contains 253 treasures, assuming I counted correctly.  Before you reveal your hand, you had $264.  Afterward, you have $11, for a score of 253.

You can rather easily improve on this by

1. on the last Black Market play, buy Mandarin from the Black Market to topdeck all Treasures you played so far and be able to draw them with the last Madman (before that, make sure you played enough Treasures to get at least $293).
2. Replace one of your kingdom treasures with Crown, put Ferry+Inheritance in the kingdom, inherit Crowns. In 3p, this can give you a maximum of 21 Estate-Crowns that are also Treasures.


This puts the maximum score (for 3p) up to 287. (EDIT: Had to remove $1 due to the Crown set aside by Inheritance).

Also, I'm pretty sure you can put a bunch of gainers in the Black Market in order to gain all the remaining Treasures in the supply.

Another way to improve it:

Have a Hireling and a Procession in the Black Market.  Have enough Hirelings played so your entire deck is in your hand to start the turn.  Have a Vault from the Black Market. Play a village of some sort, then play Vault, discarding all your Treasures.  Then, play Madmen to redraw them all, then play Poor House.


And, yes, you can have enough gainers in the BM.  Just switch out some expensive unused Kingdom treasures for cheaper ones.  With Throne Room, King's Court, and Royal Carriage, you can play 3 Artisans, 3 Altars, and 3 Forges.  You can then Workshop/Ironworks/Engineer/Armory/Whatever to gain the rest.  (And, of course, save a Madman to draw them all.)  In this scenario, you need to discard a few extra cards to your Vault, but you have all the stuff from the BM you're gonna Forge, so it all works.
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jonaskoelker

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Re: The Poor House challenge: how much money can you lose?
« Reply #12 on: October 31, 2017, 03:38:53 am »
0

Have a Vault from the Black Market. Play a village of some sort, then play Vault, discarding all your Treasures. Then, play Madmen to redraw them all, then play Poor House.
I think all might be a bit many, unless you can draw enough with Madman revealing only non-treasure cards. But you can probably do at least about half.

Disclaimer: I haven't done the math in detail.
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crj

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Re: The Poor House challenge: how much money can you lose?
« Reply #13 on: October 31, 2017, 11:23:43 am »
+1

It feels like the template for a provably optimal solution is:
• Black Market in the kingdom
• Bank in the Kingdom
• All the other kingdom piles, including a Bane, are the biggest (most cards) Treasure piles you can find
• Gain one Black Market and every Treasure in the supply, bar those you have to leave behind to avoid piling out.
• Gain one of every other kind of Treasure in the game from Black Market
• Pick up Hermit and Lurker from the Black Market. Acquire ten Madmen
• Pick up Tactician, Royal Blacksmith, Council Room, King's Court, Royal Carriage
• Pick up a Counting House and a Scavenger
• Pick up some gainers and villages
• Pick up a Bandit Camp; collect all the Spoils
• Pick up then play a Tournament; get Diadem
• Pick up Poor House!

Then:
• Put Royal Carriage in reserve
• Play Tactician the turn before (10 cards)
• Play King's Court, triple Royal Blacksmith (23 cards)
• Call Royal Carriage on KC, triple Council Room (34 cards)
• Play Madmen; draw your deck
• Play Black Market. Play lots of Treasure (but not one-shots like Counterfeit or Spoils)
• Buy Mandarin from the Black Market deck; topdeck your Treasures
• Play Scavenger, Counting House, some more Madmen
• Use a village/gainer chain to pick up the final Treasures from the Supply
• Play one final Madman to bring everything into hand
• Play Poor House

That can plainly draw more than enough cards (literally thousands). If you play a few Banks, it's plain the amount of spending money you accumulate will vastly exceed the number of Treasures you have. Then, you play Poor House with all your Treasures in hand.

Meanwhile, Black Market is the only non-Treasure Kingdom pile.
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jonaskoelker

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Re: The Poor House challenge: how much money can you lose?
« Reply #14 on: October 31, 2017, 02:24:28 pm »
0

I can get 253 (edit), which I'm sure can be optimized significantly.

By my count, you get:
  • Kingdom: 94 — 9*9 (piles) + 11 Harems + 2 from the empty piles
  • Black Market: 16
  • Copper: 60 - 7 - 7 - 1 (3 player game)
  • Silver, Potion, Gold, Platinum: 40-1, 16-1, 30-1, 12-1
Total: 249, before playing any treasures. Including treasures played it gets even lower than that.

Where and why do you think we differ?
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jonaskoelker

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Re: The Poor House challenge: how much money can you lose?
« Reply #15 on: October 31, 2017, 02:49:16 pm »
0

You can rather easily improve on this by

1. on the last Black Market play, buy Mandarin.
2. Replace one of your kingdom treasures with Crown, put Ferry+Inheritance in the kingdom, inherit Crowns. In 3p, this can give you a maximum of 21 Estate-Crowns that are also Treasures.


On top of, I think, 249 in humcalc216's solution, you add at most 19 more, because I didn't deduct played treasures from the 249, and you can add at most 19 Estates without emptying piles further.

That gives your solution a total of 268 revealed treasures (and a net money loss of at most [that minus 4]).

Where do you think the difference comes from?
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faust

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Re: The Poor House challenge: how much money can you lose?
« Reply #16 on: November 01, 2017, 02:38:20 am »
0

I can get 253 (edit), which I'm sure can be optimized significantly.

By my count, you get:
  • Kingdom: 94 — 9*9 (piles) + 11 Harems + 2 from the empty piles
  • Black Market: 16
  • Copper: 60 - 7 - 7 - 1 (3 player game)
  • Silver, Potion, Gold, Platinum: 40-1, 16-1, 30-1, 12-1
Total: 249, before playing any treasures. Including treasures played it gets even lower than that.

Where and why do you think we differ?
humcalc's solution adds the last Silver, Gold, Copper in the course of the turn. Plus you can get your opponents' starting Coppers via Masquerade.

EDIT: But I didn't calculate myself, so it may well be that humcalc's number is off.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2017, 02:39:31 am by faust »
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jonaskoelker

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Re: The Poor House challenge: how much money can you lose?
« Reply #17 on: November 03, 2017, 03:39:08 pm »
0

humcalc's solution adds the last Silver, Gold, Copper in the course of the turn. Plus you can get your opponents' starting Coppers via Masquerade.

humcalc's solution doesn't mention Masquerade, so that can't make up the difference. Three more treasures can't make up a difference of 4, especially when I start factoring in played treasures.

Regarding stealing Coppers with Masquerade, the way I stipulated how opponents behave this may be difficult:
Your opponents play as follows: they never play any cards. They never buy anything. When one of them has to make a decision not covered by these rules, they all resign and the game ends.

However, if you Crown a Thief and your opponents have at most 3 non-treasure cards in their decks you're guaranteed to hit a treasure, if they have one in their draw/discard pile. So long as they only have Copper and have at least one, Cutpurse is guaranteed to provide Thief a target. Once you have stolen everyone's Copper, you can use Masquerade to trade Copper for Estate and use Cutpurse+Thief to steal back the Copper, effectively stealing one estate.

If you use Native Village to draw your deck (rather than Madman) you don't have to depend on shuffle luck: you will always be able to eventually put your entire deck into your hand; on those turns, you will have 2+ actions, enough for either Masquerade on its own or Cutpurse followed by Crown+Thief. (If you use Lurker/Hermit into Madman to draw your deck, you may need to gain too many cards. Maybe not, but the analysis is a lot easier with Native Village.)

So I think your solution gets 249 (humcalc's base score) + 19 (20 Estates but -1 Crown) + 14 (Coppers) = 282 total, plus any treasures gained and later drawn on the megaturn. That's still not the 287 you claimed—it's either +3 gains by imitating humcalc, or 15 gains if you are right that you can gain all the treasures in the supply, maybe 16 if you can also gain an Estate.
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humcalc216

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Re: The Poor House challenge: how much money can you lose?
« Reply #18 on: November 04, 2017, 05:36:32 pm »
0

I think my original solution may have miscounted Coppers in a 3-player game.  I picked 3 players to make Harem a 12-card pile, but 7 extra coppers would be more treasures than 2 extra Harems (because in 2-player we'd use something other than Harem) and 4 Estate-Crowns, which my original solution did not consider.  So, there's a good chance my score is off by 7, but I'm too lazy to go back and recount everything to make sure.

Regarding stealing Coppers with Masquerade, the way I stipulated how opponents behave this may be difficult:
Your opponents play as follows: they never play any cards. They never buy anything. When one of them has to make a decision not covered by these rules, they all resign and the game ends.

However, if you Crown a Thief and your opponents have at most 3 non-treasure cards in their decks you're guaranteed to hit a treasure, if they have one in their draw/discard pile. So long as they only have Copper and have at least one, Cutpurse is guaranteed to provide Thief a target. Once you have stolen everyone's Copper, you can use Masquerade to trade Copper for Estate and use Cutpurse+Thief to steal back the Copper, effectively stealing one estate.
This is why I didn't use Masquerade.  And I didn't use Thief because it's removed (though maybe that's not a good enough reason).  And, does having to pass an Estate from a hand of 3 Estates count as a "decision"?

As far as gaining all of the remaining supply treasures, it's definitely possible.  In my solution, Treasure Trove gains you the Copper and Gold, and you can start with all of 2 piles.  In my solution, that was originally Banks an Capitals, but let's make it Platina and Banks.  We need to gain Silver, Potion, and 9 Kingdom Treasures.  Let's assume those are Fool's Gold, Loan, Talisman, Crown, Venture, Capital, Royal Seal, Charm, and Harem.  Here's how we can gain everything:
Silver: Trusty Steed
Potion: Workshop (BM)
Crown, Venture, Capital: KC (BM)-Artisan (BM)
Talisman, Royal Seal, Charm: Royal Carriage (BM) called on KC, KC-Altar (BM), trashing Fortress (BM) 3 times
Fool's Gold, Loan: Engineer (BM), trashing it
Harem: Forge (BM), trashing Tournament and Lurker
Throw enough extra Villages into the BM to let us play all these.


And, the amount of draw from 10 Madmen is insane.  From a 5-card hand, you can get up to 3074 cards in hand by playing 10 Madmen, and 386 from 7 Madmen, which is plenty to draw this deck.  And, it's easy enough to start with your whole deck in hand at the start of the turn.  I presented a solution for this, and others have presented other solutions as well.
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