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Author Topic: The Dominion Cards List 2017 edition - brainstorming  (Read 9457 times)

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Chappy7

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Re: The Dominion Cards List 2017 edition - brainstorming
« Reply #25 on: October 27, 2017, 06:17:46 pm »
+2

Just an idea, do we need to rate every single card now in the game? What's wrong with like a top 25 or top 50 in each of the proposed categories? I know how much we like being completionists but the amount of work required to make these lists is immense, even for a team. So my suggestion is to cut the workload.

I like seeing the bottom of the list as well.  As a beginning player the complete lists helped me a lot.  It was hard for me to believe that pirate ship was bad, and without the list, it would have taken me a while to learn. 
Now that I'm not a beginner, it is still tons of fun to see a whole list.
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LibraryAdventurer

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Re: The Dominion Cards List 2017 edition - brainstorming
« Reply #26 on: October 27, 2017, 07:32:13 pm »
0

Ranking the cards doesn't take nearly as long if you base it on your list from last year, and I think last year's lists may still be available.

I have no interest in ranking knights, landmarks, ruins, or art.

Qvist

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Re: The Dominion Cards List 2017 edition - brainstorming
« Reply #27 on: October 28, 2017, 11:23:46 am »
+5

- Ranking Hexes and Boons will be fun I think
- Ranking Heirlooms doesn't make any sense as we didn't rank Shelters either. I mean they are not meant to be equal in strenght anyway. Goat is likely to be the strongest anyway.
- Ranking Non-Supply cards makes even less sense, given different cost and ways to get them. Like Madman is one of the strongest without doubt.

I like theory's idea, but I won't code that because I don't have the time. I have already 3 different methods to rank the cards. One of them should fit the needs for everyone. As there is still confusion, you don't need to do the compare method. You can also just assign numbers for strength. I will try to make that clear this time.

Qvist

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Re: The Dominion Cards List 2017 edition - brainstorming
« Reply #28 on: October 28, 2017, 11:28:03 am »
+8

Oh and regarding presenting the results. Having different people present them is actually a neat idea. I am still against presenting them all at once because I like the speculations and the discussion that rise from that. But raising the parts to like 15 or 20 cards at one and having different people presenting each part sounds pretty good.

werothegreat

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Re: The Dominion Cards List 2017 edition - brainstorming
« Reply #29 on: October 28, 2017, 03:26:59 pm »
0

I like comparing 2 cards with each other.  It might be bias, but I don't think I'll like comparing 4 cards at once.
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Qvist

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Re: The Dominion Cards List 2017 edition - brainstorming
« Reply #30 on: October 28, 2017, 06:56:09 pm »
0

Well wero, you can just choose the ranking/rating option you prefer, an additional wouldn't hurt.

Anyway, really like the idea now that I thought about it, to let different people present the results.
Feel free to apply if you are interested in the #cardlists channel in discord (preferred) or PM me here.
The more people apply, the less cards each person might have to present, I am aiming for about 15 per person.

Beyond Awesome

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Re: The Dominion Cards List 2017 edition - brainstorming
« Reply #31 on: October 28, 2017, 07:07:42 pm »
0

I like Theory's idea. Simply put, there are so many cards now, we need a faster more efficient way to rank cards, especially if we are going to try and get a strong voting population.
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Qvist

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Re: The Dominion Cards List 2017 edition - brainstorming
« Reply #32 on: October 28, 2017, 07:10:11 pm »
0

I like Theory's idea. Simply put, there are so many cards now, we need a faster more efficient way to rank cards, especially if we are going to try and get a strong voting population.

Like I said, you can for now just assign numbers to each card and that is a decent and fast way to rank them, faster than any other method, just not as precise.

Cuzz

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Re: The Dominion Cards List 2017 edition - brainstorming
« Reply #33 on: October 31, 2017, 10:52:04 am »
0

I like Theory's idea. Simply put, there are so many cards now, we need a faster more efficient way to rank cards, especially if we are going to try and get a strong voting population.

I like theory's idea a lot. It seems pretty fun and efficient, and doesn't require a huge commitment from any individual. I think it also requires a little more thoughtfulness than just 2 cards at a time.
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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: The Dominion Cards List 2017 edition - brainstorming
« Reply #34 on: October 31, 2017, 02:15:13 pm »
0

I think ranking the Boons and Hexes would be interesting, even if it's pointless strategy-wise because they're random. We already rank the ruins even though those are random.

I don't see the point in ranking Heirlooms though, or even how you could do it. They're all at different price points, but you get them for free. Doesn't this mean the most expensive one is automatically the best? Though I admit that I'm curious about people's opinions on Hovel vs Overgrown Estate. Hovel has the decency to get rid of itself, but Overgrown Estate has the on-trash bonus and the Victory type...
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AJD

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Re: The Dominion Cards List 2017 edition - brainstorming
« Reply #35 on: October 31, 2017, 03:27:43 pm »
0

I think ranking the Boons and Hexes would be interesting, even if it's pointless strategy-wise because they're random.

I don't think it's pointless strategy-wise for the Boons; it's relevant to when it's a good decision to buy Druid or trash Pixie.
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Dingan

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Re: The Dominion Cards List 2017 edition - brainstorming
« Reply #36 on: October 31, 2017, 03:52:57 pm »
0

+1 for just making a top-X list and bottom-X list for each pricepoint.

It comes back to what these lists are actually used for. When I first started looking at them, pretty much the only takeaways I remember having were 'What are the best cards that tend to dominate whatever Kingdoms they're in?', and 'What are the worst that should I should avoid unless I have a good reason to get them?' ... "Huh, there must really be something to this Ambassador card - guess I'll try it out." "Wait, having a Duchess is usually worse than having nothing at all?" Etc.

Do I really care if Cutpurse is better than Poacher or if Knights are better than Bridge Troll (whatever "better" even means in this context)? Like, how will that information in a vacuum ever be useful when evaluating a Kingdom with those 2 cards, especially to a beginner or intermediate player looking at these lists for the first time? EDIT: I realize you could make this argument about any 2 cards. But blindly buying Mountebank instead of Harvest every time you have $5 is not a terrible rule to follow - I would not be able to say the same about the middle-100-or-so cards.

Oh and it would also make the ranking easier.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2017, 04:10:55 pm by Dingan »
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Jacob marley

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Re: The Dominion Cards List 2017 edition - brainstorming
« Reply #37 on: October 31, 2017, 05:16:09 pm »
+4

We should only rank things we buy.  That means cards and events. 

Heirlooms, boons, hexes and landmarks are not things we buy, they either are just there in set up or are given randomly.

Events should be combined with cards of the same price point, since they compete directly with those cards for your buys.
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trivialknot

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Re: The Dominion Cards List 2017 edition - brainstorming
« Reply #38 on: October 31, 2017, 06:31:49 pm »
+2

I am okay with any ranking system, as long as it doesn't involve me doing thousands of comparisons.  (You need about 2000 pairwise comparisons to sort 300 cards.)  I think the person who actually writes the code is the one who gets to decide on the details.  I don't want to make demands for other people to do more work than they're willing to do.

For stuff like events, landmarks, heirlooms, boons, etc., I am in favor of ranking them all.  Honestly I don't think ranking heirlooms makes much sense, but the thing is, ranking 7 cards takes a tiny fraction of the time that it takes to rank the $5-costs.  So if there's even a small fraction of people in the dominion community who would enjoy the ranking, why not do it?  It's just so easy.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2017, 06:33:39 pm by trivialknot »
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Rabid

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Re: The Dominion Cards List 2017 edition - brainstorming
« Reply #39 on: November 01, 2017, 08:49:29 am »
0

I strongly, strongly recommend whoever is making the list to try out MaxDiff sorting.

Basically, humans suck at ranking long lists of things.  Is Cutpurse the 47th best card?  Or the 48th?

So instead, we create a system where people are given randomly-selected sets of 4 cards, and asked to rank the best and worst out of those 4.  It's easy, and ends up producing a ton of data for very little mental cost.

http://www.mdrginc.com/market-research-best-practies-can-improve-college-football-ranking-system/

Reminds me of this site for MTG:
http://www.draftaholicsanonymous.com/p1p1-ixalan/
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Re: The Dominion Cards List 2017 edition - brainstorming
« Reply #40 on: November 01, 2017, 10:11:27 am »
0

The all cards list was always optional. You can just choose not to do it, as I’ve been doing. I don’t really have any interest in doing it with this many cards.

The other lists are more manageable as is.

I’d recommend Theory’s method for the all-cards list and the existing methods for the others, unless they are linked somehow and this isn’t possible.
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markusin

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Re: The Dominion Cards List 2017 edition - brainstorming
« Reply #41 on: November 01, 2017, 11:25:37 am »
0

The all cards list was always optional. You can just choose not to do it, as I’ve been doing. I don’t really have any interest in doing it with this many cards.

The other lists are more manageable as is.

I’d recommend Theory’s method for the all-cards list and the existing methods for the others, unless they are linked somehow and this isn’t possible.

For the all-cards list, I did that by first doing the rankings for all the individual costs, then popping from the top of those lists onto the next slot in the full list. You compare maybe 4-6 cards (each the current top card of their respective lists) each time this way, picking the best one to go next.

But the all-cards list is optional anyway.
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faust

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Re: The Dominion Cards List 2017 edition - brainstorming
« Reply #42 on: December 01, 2017, 05:03:34 am »
0

So, is there something happening here?
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Re: The Dominion Cards List 2017 edition - brainstorming
« Reply #43 on: December 01, 2017, 09:49:32 am »
0

So, is there something happening here?

Qvist is updating the database and will post on FDS in a couple days.
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