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Author Topic: The Dominion Cards List 2017 edition - brainstorming  (Read 9460 times)

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faust

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The Dominion Cards List 2017 edition - brainstorming
« on: October 27, 2017, 06:08:06 am »
+8

With all the excitement over Nocturne previews, it's easy to forget our thrid most favorite passtime: Making brackets lists.

In order to justifiably call the next cards lists a 2017 one, voting for it should at least start in 2017. There's not terribly much time left.

Nocturne release is currently scheduled for mid-November, starting the cards list before that seems like a bad idea.

Since Avist indicated he likely won't have the energy to compile and post all the lists in the nice exhaustive format we've had so far, I thought it would be a nice idea to turn this into a community effort. So, after polling, we would have 1 person responsible for the writeup of each list. That way, we could have all the results online quicker and don't risk burnout.

My suggestion would be to use all of December for voting and present the results starting January.

Notcurne also opens some questions on new things to be ranked. Some suggestions:

- rankings for Boons and Hexes. This is pretty obvious I assume. What's the best Boon to get? What's the worst Hex to dish out? I think it would offer nice insights into what small vanilla-ish bonuses are "worth".
- starting cards ranking. With Heirlooms and Shelters, there are now 12 different cards you could have in your starting deck. Would be interesting to see what's the strongest and what's weak. We'll finally be able to answer whether an Overgrown Estate is cooler than a reuglar one.
- non-supply card rankings. So far, we only have a list for Prizes that isn't terribly interesting. Nocturne offers a whole bunch of new non-supply cards. I could imagine doing something along those lines.

So what does the community think? Is there interest in some collaboration?
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Re: The Dominion Cards List 2017 edition - brainstorming
« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2017, 06:42:16 am »
+1

Some random thoughts:
  • Would it be easier to not do the whole cards ranking? With so many cards that seems like it would take forever, maybe in the 4+ hour range. Splitting it up into just the separate costs might be easier for most people. I don't think the complete card list is very helpful anyway.
  • We're definitely removing the 12 ditched cards from the list, right? I think it's pointless to include them.
  • The cards will be up online as soon as the expansion gets released, so people will be playing a lot more games in the first weeks then they normally do. Starting ranking around Thanksgiving (and ending January/February) should give plenty of time for everyone to form an opinion.
  • If we could post all the results in a shorter timespan that would be nice. I know Qvist got burned out last year, but even at full pace, it took weeks to get through one list. I would prefer it if we could have all the results out in the period of about one month. Your suggestion of different people doing different lists is a great idea, I wouldn't mind taking a smaller one myself.
  • I'd like to keep the arrows that show the increase/decrease from last year, but the other things could probably be cut, especially for the smaller lists.

Also, here's a list of what lists I think we're doing:
  • -
  • +
  • Boons
  • Hexes
  • Knights
  • Landmarks
  • Events
  • Ruins
  • Card Art

Notably, I don't think it's worth having the "favourite cards" list. A starting card list would be interesting that had Copper, Estate, Shelters, and Heirlooms and you ranked which ones were best to start with.
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Re: The Dominion Cards List 2017 edition - brainstorming
« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2017, 06:43:13 am »
+4

Good idea overall.

Hexes and Boons definitely should get their list.

Ranking Starting cards is kinda funny, but in all honesty kinda wonky the way you put it. We all know which Shelter is #1. Ranking Heirlooms is funny, even though their position should be weighed in ranking their Kingdom cards.

Non-supply cards ranking is probably too messy to be any good.

We should make a list for Castles though. They were probably too hard to understand for last years ranking.
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Re: The Dominion Cards List 2017 edition - brainstorming
« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2017, 06:48:48 am »
0

Good idea overall.

Hexes and Boons definitely should get their list.

Ranking Starting cards is kinda funny, but in all honesty kinda wonky the way you put it. We all know which Shelter is #1. Ranking Heirlooms is funny, even though their position should be weighed in ranking their Kingdom cards.

Non-supply cards ranking is probably too messy to be any good.

We should make a list for Castles though. They were probably too hard to understand for last years ranking.

I second all of this
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Re: The Dominion Cards List 2017 edition - brainstorming
« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2017, 06:55:31 am »
+1

Ranking Starting cards is kinda funny, but in all honesty kinda wonky the way you put it. We all know which Shelter is #1. Ranking Heirlooms is funny, even though their position should be weighed in ranking their Kingdom cards.

I mean ranking them all together. So you have a list of Copper, Estate, Necro, Hovel, Overgrown Estate, Goat, Cursed Gold, Haunted Mirror, Lucky Coin, Pasture, and the 2 unknown heirlooms and you'd rank them in the order you'd want them as starting cards. It seems no weirder than it is to rank the Landmarks.
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Re: The Dominion Cards List 2017 edition - brainstorming
« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2017, 07:49:55 am »
+5

I would personally argue against having Events as a separate list. It seems enough to do them at their respective price point.
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Re: The Dominion Cards List 2017 edition - brainstorming
« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2017, 07:53:19 am »
+2

Ranking Heirlooms is funny, even though their position should be weighed in ranking their Kingdom cards.
I disagree that the Heirlooms should be considered in ranking their connected cards. That's like weighing the position of Dark Ages cards by the fact that they might bring Shelters into play.
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Re: The Dominion Cards List 2017 edition - brainstorming
« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2017, 08:02:50 am »
+7

Yeah, I don't think a kingdom card should get more points just because it has a powerful Heirloom. You should take synergy/anti-synergy with the Heirloom into account when making your own rankings though, since it's guaranteed to be present every time.
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Re: The Dominion Cards List 2017 edition - brainstorming
« Reply #8 on: October 27, 2017, 08:10:26 am »
+10

Yeah, I don't think a kingdom card should get more points just because it has a powerful Heirloom. You should take synergy/anti-synergy with the Heirloom into account when making your own rankings though, since it's guaranteed to be present every time.

Right.  Rate Shepherd knowing you'll have an extra Victory card in your deck to start with, don't rate it as "wow my Estates are worth 1 extra !"
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Re: The Dominion Cards List 2017 edition - brainstorming
« Reply #9 on: October 27, 2017, 08:12:44 am »
+1

Yeah, I don't think a kingdom card should get more points just because it has a powerful Heirloom. You should take synergy/anti-synergy with the Heirloom into account when making your own rankings though, since it's guaranteed to be present every time.

It absolutely should get more points for a powerful Heirloom. That’s supplied with the card every time, and a consequence of the card’s presence in the kingdom. The same way Baker is made better by giving you a free Coin token. I don’t think the model some people use of “how good is it to buy this card” as a proxy for total strength is really the full picture of a card’s strength anymore. I think “how much stronger is the average kingdom given the inclusion of this card” is a lot more powerful of a metric.

Look at Events. Events that you only buy once or never, for a marginal effect at the time, can have a huge impact on how the board is played, and we don’t say the event is “weak” just because it’s influence isn’t explicitly borne out in every game it’s present in.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2017, 08:14:35 am by Chris is me »
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Re: The Dominion Cards List 2017 edition - brainstorming
« Reply #10 on: October 27, 2017, 08:52:26 am »
+3

“how much stronger is the average kingdom given the inclusion of this card” is a lot more powerful of a metric.
How does one evaluate the "strength" of a kingdom? What does that even mean?
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Re: The Dominion Cards List 2017 edition - brainstorming
« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2017, 10:04:59 am »
0

It absolutely should get more points for a powerful Heirloom. That’s supplied with the card every time, and a consequence of the card’s presence in the kingdom. The same way Baker is made better by giving you a free Coin token. I don’t think the model some people use of “how good is it to buy this card” as a proxy for total strength is really the full picture of a card’s strength anymore. I think “how much stronger is the average kingdom given the inclusion of this card” is a lot more powerful of a metric.

But it's redundant to score the Heirlooms separately and also add their scores to their respective kingdom cards' scores.
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Re: The Dominion Cards List 2017 edition - brainstorming
« Reply #12 on: October 27, 2017, 10:35:47 am »
+2

“how much stronger is the average kingdom given the inclusion of this card” is a lot more powerful of a metric.
How does one evaluate the "strength" of a kingdom? What does that even mean?

This is as subjective and blurry of a question as “how does one evaluate the strength of a card”.
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Re: The Dominion Cards List 2017 edition - brainstorming
« Reply #13 on: October 27, 2017, 10:37:07 am »
0

It absolutely should get more points for a powerful Heirloom. That’s supplied with the card every time, and a consequence of the card’s presence in the kingdom. The same way Baker is made better by giving you a free Coin token. I don’t think the model some people use of “how good is it to buy this card” as a proxy for total strength is really the full picture of a card’s strength anymore. I think “how much stronger is the average kingdom given the inclusion of this card” is a lot more powerful of a metric.

But it's redundant to score the Heirlooms separately and also add their scores to their respective kingdom cards' scores.

Scoring them separately and also adding them is totally fine, because the Heirloom list is gonna be separate from the Supply list (see: Prizes). Death Cart makes you gain two Ruins, and you don’t “not consider that” just because the Ruins are separately scored...
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Awaclus

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Re: The Dominion Cards List 2017 edition - brainstorming
« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2017, 10:39:06 am »
+1

Death Cart makes you gain two Ruins, and you don’t “not consider that” just because the Ruins are separately scored...

Because that depends on you buying Death Cart.
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Re: The Dominion Cards List 2017 edition - brainstorming
« Reply #15 on: October 27, 2017, 10:50:48 am »
+2

So first a disclaimer: I never totally understood how the previous ranking system worked, but for me, it was a big turn off that it took sooooo long to rank all the cards. Is there any way it could be split into more manageable sections? I would be totally on board if it was, but frankly I find it hard to justify spending an unreal amount of time ranking the cards. Maybe instead of rating a bunch of cards against each other, people could just arrange them from least to most powerful.

I realize this would be a big change to the ranking system, I just wanted to throw this out there.
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Re: The Dominion Cards List 2017 edition - brainstorming
« Reply #16 on: October 27, 2017, 11:26:31 am »
+3

I would be totally on board if it was, but frankly I find it hard to justify spending an unreal amount of time ranking the cards. Maybe instead of rating a bunch of cards against each other, people could just arrange them from least to most powerful.

You could already do that in the past rankings. Rating the cards against each other was just an alternative (default) way to rank them, but it would still ultimately give you an order from least to most powerful. It was also possible to combine the different methods so that you would do most of the work in one mode and then do the fine tuning in the other.
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Re: The Dominion Cards List 2017 edition - brainstorming
« Reply #17 on: October 27, 2017, 12:11:31 pm »
+1

Just an idea, do we need to rate every single card now in the game? What's wrong with like a top 25 or top 50 in each of the proposed categories? I know how much we like being completionists but the amount of work required to make these lists is immense, even for a team. So my suggestion is to cut the workload.
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Re: The Dominion Cards List 2017 edition - brainstorming
« Reply #18 on: October 27, 2017, 12:37:15 pm »
+7

I strongly, strongly recommend whoever is making the list to try out MaxDiff sorting.

Basically, humans suck at ranking long lists of things.  Is Cutpurse the 47th best card?  Or the 48th?

So instead, we create a system where people are given randomly-selected sets of 4 cards, and asked to rank the best and worst out of those 4.  It's easy, and ends up producing a ton of data for very little mental cost.

http://www.mdrginc.com/market-research-best-practies-can-improve-college-football-ranking-system/

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Re: The Dominion Cards List 2017 edition - brainstorming
« Reply #19 on: October 27, 2017, 12:52:40 pm »
0

I strongly, strongly recommend whoever is making the list to try out MaxDiff sorting.

Basically, humans suck at ranking long lists of things.  Is Cutpurse the 47th best card?  Or the 48th?

So instead, we create a system where people are given randomly-selected sets of 4 cards, and asked to rank the best and worst out of those 4.  It's easy, and ends up producing a ton of data for very little mental cost.

http://www.mdrginc.com/market-research-best-practies-can-improve-college-football-ranking-system/

Unless I missed something on that link, lots of methodology details aren't given.

1) How many total teams were in the set? All ~130 teams in the FBS?

2) How many rounds of voting were there per participant?

2000 participants is a lot more than we would get here, I imagine (the 2015 list had ~100 participants?) and we have many more cards to rank than there are FBS teams.



With the aim of making the analysis more tractable, I think we should ask everyone what they think the top X cards are, then take the union of those cards as the set to rank.
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Re: The Dominion Cards List 2017 edition - brainstorming
« Reply #20 on: October 27, 2017, 12:59:11 pm »
+1

The number of participants is not important.  The question is how many times each person is willing to vote.  Basically you show people, over and over again, a random set of 4 cards, asking them what is the best and what is the worst.  After enough iterations you have some solid Bayesian data on how those cards are tiered.
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Re: The Dominion Cards List 2017 edition - brainstorming
« Reply #21 on: October 27, 2017, 01:09:42 pm »
0

We could definitely get some more people to vote by putting it on the blog, BGG, and maybe even on ShuffleIT's forum.
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Re: The Dominion Cards List 2017 edition - brainstorming
« Reply #22 on: October 27, 2017, 02:09:15 pm »
0

The number of participants is not important.  The question is how many times each person is willing to vote.  Basically you show people, over and over again, a random set of 4 cards, asking them what is the best and what is the worst.  After enough iterations you have some solid Bayesian data on how those cards are tiered.

As I see it, there are two key considerations to the number of people:

1) Spreading out the work of ranking.

2) Obtaining data that is meaningful for your question.

I'd argue that N is important for both, but that doesn't mean it has to be large.
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Re: The Dominion Cards List 2017 edition - brainstorming
« Reply #23 on: October 27, 2017, 02:50:34 pm »
+8

Yeah, I don't think a kingdom card should get more points just because it has a powerful Heirloom. You should take synergy/anti-synergy with the Heirloom into account when making your own rankings though, since it's guaranteed to be present every time.

It absolutely should get more points for a powerful Heirloom. That’s supplied with the card every time, and a consequence of the card’s presence in the kingdom. The same way Baker is made better by giving you a free Coin token. I don’t think the model some people use of “how good is it to buy this card” as a proxy for total strength is really the full picture of a card’s strength anymore. I think “how much stronger is the average kingdom given the inclusion of this card” is a lot more powerful of a metric.

Look at Events. Events that you only buy once or never, for a marginal effect at the time, can have a huge impact on how the board is played, and we don’t say the event is “weak” just because it’s influence isn’t explicitly borne out in every game it’s present in.

Do people actually take the extra coin token into account when evaluating the strength of Baker? That seems really odd to me. It has nothing to do with your decision whether to buy the card or not.
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Re: The Dominion Cards List 2017 edition - brainstorming
« Reply #24 on: October 27, 2017, 06:05:04 pm »
0

I strongly, strongly recommend whoever is making the list to try out MaxDiff sorting.

Basically, humans suck at ranking long lists of things.  Is Cutpurse the 47th best card?  Or the 48th?

So instead, we create a system where people are given randomly-selected sets of 4 cards, and asked to rank the best and worst out of those 4.  It's easy, and ends up producing a ton of data for very little mental cost.

http://www.mdrginc.com/market-research-best-practies-can-improve-college-football-ranking-system/
Well that would require someone to implement such a thing. The current system has the distinct advantage that it already exists.
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