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[allanfieldhouse]

There was a big discussion in one of the Nocturne threads about how strong Ghost Town is. To illustrate its strengths and weaknesses, the discussion got derailed onto Caravan and Tactician variants (because, obviously). People looking to discuss the new cards don't want to see that stuff though, so hey, here's a new thread for it!

First an (arbitrary) definition. When I say "delayed effect", what I mean is an effect that triggers at the start of your next turn.

One side of the argument was that delayed effects are inherently weaker than an immediate effect. An easy example of this is comparing Lab and Caravan (we all agree Caravan is weaker than Lab). Each card gives you net +1 card, but Caravan waits until next turn to do it.

The counter argument is that Caravan is weaker, not because the draw is delayed, but only because the card has to stay out for 2 turns every time it's played.

After thinking about it, I tend to agree with the second opinion. An extra card drawn at the very start of your turn is much more valuable than an extra card at some point in the middle. To illustrate this, imagine a card called DiscardCaravan. The text is exactly the same as Caravan, except there's a new line that says "Discard this card during cleanup on the turn you played it." This means that in a draw-your-deck engine, you can play all of your DiscardCaravans every turn (and get a bonus from each of them at the start of each turn).

Now compare having 5 DiscardCaravans to 5 Labs. If you're drawing your deck, both situations would give you +5 cards per turn. The DiscardCaravan is way better though because you get your bonus cards right at the start of your turn rather than the middle, and it's pretty hard to dud when you're starting with a 10 card hand.

Obviously you will want different things in different situations, but this example clearly indicates that all things being equal, in a draw-your-deck engine, delayed draw is simply better than immediate draw.

What do you guys think? Are there holes in my analysis? Does any of this actually make a difference in how card strength is evaluated? Does it make any difference if the draw card was terminal or not? Do delayed +actions behave similarly to delayed +cards?

[ThetaSigma12]

Here's 3 more pages of interesting discussion from a long time ago: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=290.msg634337#msg634337

[Jack Rudd]

Here's a simpler way to turn Caravan into DiscardCaravan: leave the card text as it is, and remove "Duration" from its list of types.

[theory]

I think both sides are correct.  A Silver that said "+$2 on your next turn" blows.  It is even worse if it has to stay out until then.

But a modified Smithy that said "+3 cards on your next turn" is not that bad.  In fact in many scenarios it would even be better than regular Smithy, even if it has to stay out.

The difference is simply that unlike +$, or any other resource, +cards is super valuable at the start of a turn, both because you have more optionality and because you have no risk of drawing dead.

[Mic Qsenoch]

Dominion is a game with finite turns (sometimes very finite). A better turn now can have nonlinear effects on what your deck looks like X turns from now. The first time you play Lab your turn is generally better than the one where you play DiscardCaravan, and this may have far-reaching effects. You also have less control over the timing of shuffles whenever the draw is forced at the start of your turn, which may mean missing opportunities to gain key cards and put them into the deck before a shuffle.

[LastFootnote]

I think both sides are correct.  A Silver that said "+$2 on your next turn" blows.  It is even worse if it has to stay out until then.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but a Treasure-Duration that gives +$2 both now and on your next turn was tested for Adventures. It cost $6 and was still almost always an automatic buy over Gold. It's strong payload.

EDIT: Regardless, it was way too similar to Merchant Ship for my taste, so I'm glad it died.

[Mic Qsenoch]

I think both sides are correct.  A Silver that said "+$2 on your next turn" blows.  It is even worse if it has to stay out until then.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but a Treasure-Duration that gives +$2 both now and on your next turn was tested for Adventures. It cost $6 and was still almost always an automatic buy over Gold. It's strong payload.

I believe theory's card doesn't give $2 now.

[LastFootnote]

I think both sides are correct.  A Silver that said "+$2 on your next turn" blows.  It is even worse if it has to stay out until then.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but a Treasure-Duration that gives +$2 both now and on your next turn was tested for Adventures. It cost $6 and was still almost always an automatic buy over Gold. It's strong payload.

I believe theory's card doesn't give $2 now.

Aha. When I read "Silver", I assumed it also gave +$2 now. Sorry about that. Yes, a delayed Silver would be just awful.

EDIT: Another development tidbit is that we had a similar discussion during Adventures testing vis a vis Haunted Woods. And based on Donald's simulator, DelayedSmithy-BM beats Smithy-BM (assuming DelayedSmithy costs $4).

[allanfieldhouse]

Thanks for the "3 more pages" link. I'll have to read that over. Of course everything has been discussed at least once before.

The delayed Silver example does seem like it would suck. The distinction is that you don't (usually) care when in your turn you get your +$ or +Buys. On the other hand, you really care about having +cards and +actions at the beginning of your turn.

The DelayedSmithy example is really interesting. I guess it's also a lot harder to draw your stuff dead with that card compared to Smithy.

[DG]

EDIT: Another development tidbit is that we had a similar discussion during Adventures testing vis a vis Haunted Woods. And based on Donald's simulator, DelayedSmithy-BM beats Smithy-BM (assuming DelayedSmithy costs $4).

And presumably this would be because there is more self-synergy between DelayedSmithys than there is with normal Smithys, by avoiding terminal collision.

I can remember someone (RR?) putting together a chart that took Council Room data (of played matches on Isotropic) and correlated all the Dominion cards based on how they were used. Wharf was more closely associated with the laboratory family than the smithy family and I expect this is the reason why.

[allanfieldhouse]

Okay, back from Theta's linked thread. It's interesting that the majority of the discussion there was concerning the relative value of a card that does nothing this turn but is +1 card +1 action next turn. Which is obviously quite similar to Ghost Town (but minus the magical Night phase technology). Obviously, being a Night card makes GT much better than it would be otherwise. Plus the on-gain.

[trivialknot]

Duration cards have a bunch of effects all rolled up into one.  The cards stay out for additional turns.  You get some of the bonuses on a later turn instead of this turn.  And the bonuses are at the beginning of that turn rather than the middle of this turn.

Having resources now instead of next turn is nice, because you can invest those resources to improve your deck.  Having resources at the beginning of a turn rather than the middle is also nice, because you can invest those resources to improve your turn.

We could imagine a Haunted Woods variant that says:

Advanced Haunted Woods
+1 Action
At the beginning of your next turn, spend an action.  If you do, draw 3 cards.

And that seems pretty bad because spending your action at the beginning of your turn prevents you from investing that action throughout the turn (e.g. by playing a village).  This is a pretty clear case where you'd prefer to have the +1 Action at the beginning of your next turn, instead of now.

We can also imagine a village variant:

Timewarp village
+1 Action.  Lose a timewarp token.
In games with this, at the beginning of each turn you may take +1 Card +1 Action and take a timewarp token.  Repeat any number of times.  If you end a turn with any timewarp tokens, reset your turn and forget everything you learned about the order of your deck.

It should be obvious that this is better than an ordinary Village because having those resources at the beginning of your turn is better than getting them in the middle of the turn when you play the village.  Of course, the implementation is terrible/impossible.  I think if you wanted to seriously implement the concept, you would have it give you +1 card +1 Action on the turn after you gain it, and on every turn after you play it.

[allanfieldhouse]

I think if you wanted to seriously implement the concept, you would have it give you +1 card +1 Action on the turn after you gain it, and on every turn after you play it.

I see what you did there...