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Author Topic: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village  (Read 100439 times)

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Cave-o-sapien

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #275 on: October 30, 2017, 01:40:38 pm »
0

Is Werewolf the star of the set so far?
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LastFootnote

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #276 on: October 30, 2017, 02:08:02 pm »
+5

It'll be interesting to see how the rest of the cards turn out, but it seems that intentional efforts were made with the doom cards shown to reduce how degenerate they can be in most kingdoms (compared with, e.g., Cultist, Mountebank, Swindler).

I'd say this is true. There's a reason Vampires can't gain Vampires, even though that would have been very thematic.
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FemurLemur

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #277 on: October 30, 2017, 02:12:26 pm »
+2

I drew Locusts and hit my opponent's Royal Blacksmith. There was no replacement. The debt was not even paid off yet. That is way swingier than Swindler.
I don't see this as a flaw with the Hexes. Your opponent knows Locusts is 1 of 12 possible attacks. They should not have bought Royal Blacksmith.
I stopped reading there.
Why even reply then?

"Lol I don't even read opposing viewpoints. Isn't my ignorance cute you guys?"
Let me help you by rephrasing my

I stopped reading there.



Snark aside, your argument relies upon a strawman of my position which I have already corrected others on. You should have kept reading after all.

As others have already pointed out, you just can't forego getting a strong card on the off-chance that it gets trashed. That's just a way to lose more games.

I've responded to those people. Read those responses instead of assuming that I take the idiot's position.

You're acting like you have no responses to Locusts. I'm saying you have at least two, one of which is to not build a deck with all of your eggs in one basket. The other is to ignore the Locusts. Your problem is that you want to do the latter but then pretend you've done the former. You want to have your cake and eat it too: to buy your Royal Blacksmith, but have zero risk of losing it. Well sorry, that's how a game with Royal Blacksmith may normally work, but perhaps today, there's a Swindler on the table. Complaining about the Swindler won't actually do anything about it. It's still there. Make the best deck you can under the circumstances. Or don't. It's your call. But concluding "I lost my Royal Blacksmith to Swindler one time, therefore Swindler is a problem" is just stupid. You lost the Royal Blacksmith because you bought the Royal Blacksmith, didn't have any sufficiently reliable ways to protect it from the Swindler, and Dominion is a game heavily influenced by shuffle luck. The only reason you're upset now is because you thought low probability = zero probability. A reasonable person would have either looked at the scenario and said "Well, that's frustrating, but those are the dice I chose to roll", OR would say "I could have built a better deck". Those are the only two outcomes.

Either you could have done something differently or you couldn't. If you truly can't build a Royal Blacksmith deck that that was better than a Swindler deck, then you should've built a Swindler deck instead of Royal Blacksmith. Or perhaps your Royal Blacksmith deck is definitely better than any Swindler deck, and you just got bad luck. Welcome to Dominion man, there's shuffle luck here. Like a lot of it. All over the place. I don't know why you're just now realizing this. We could remove all of the Kingdom Cards and play a Dominion variant with only the base cards, and this would still be true. You would still lose some games due to a 1 in 200 fluke where your opponents draw their treasures in the exact order they need, and you draw yours in the worst possible order, even if you both have identical decks. I'm sorry that you seem to think that low probability = zero probability. Or perhaps just that Dominion isn't already chock full of extraordinarily low probability scenarios (it is, btw).

It's possible that Locusts influence the luck way too much, but my original point was that I remain unconvinced. Your one anecdote from one specific game is not enough, given that we don't even know if that person made the most optimal play. Clearly for it to be a serious issue it needs to be low frequency, high severity, and low player agency. You have not yet convinced me that anything other than low frequency is the case. "Royal Blacksmith trashed by Locusts, therefore Locusts are broken" is nowhere near a comprehensive enough argument. Acting standoffish and misrepresenting my argument is even less convincing.

Inb4 somebody strawmans my argument into "Wow, Femur says that you should buy Swindler over Royal Blacksmith"


Edit: Or since we're talking about a card with debt in the cost, substitute "Swindler" with literally any card that has a low probability to mess up your plan. Swindler technically does already in some edge cases (RBs are already empty, or Swindler keeps hitting your RB the turn before you would draw it and gaining you a new one that you won't get until a reshuffle).
« Last Edit: October 30, 2017, 02:31:45 pm by FemurLemur »
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ThetaSigma12

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #278 on: October 30, 2017, 02:28:58 pm »
+6

Wow. FemurLemur says you should buy Swindler over Royal Blacksmith.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2017, 05:55:01 pm by ThetaSigma12 »
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Asper

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #279 on: October 30, 2017, 02:32:38 pm »
0

Throneability isn't a great way to judge a card's strength because most of the time there are no throne variants. Werewolf is definitely a stronger Hexer than Skulk because it's non-terminal.
Completely agreed. I brought up throneability mostly in connection with how degenerate can the card be at it's worst.

Personally, I hope it doesn't get any worse than it is with Werewolf...
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Jeebus

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #280 on: October 30, 2017, 05:18:29 pm »
0


You keep saying Swindler, but the topic was Locusts. Swindlering a Royal Blacksmith gets you another one. Not so with Locusts. Other than that, I did read the entire post this time, and I remain as unconvinced as you - unconvinced that getting Royal Blacksmith removed from your deck doesn't falls into all three categories of low frequency, high severity, and low player agency. Swindler is actually way more predictable.

Cave-o-sapien

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #281 on: October 30, 2017, 05:39:35 pm »
0

It'll be interesting to see how the rest of the cards turn out, but it seems that intentional efforts were made with the doom cards shown to reduce how degenerate they can be in most kingdoms (compared with, e.g., Cultist, Mountebank, Swindler).

I'd say this is true. There's a reason Vampires can't gain Vampires, even though that would have been very thematic.

I thought it seemed anti-thematic at first, too; but on second thought, I'm good with the thematic fit. One wouldn't expect a newly-turned vampire be nearly as powerful as the alpha Vampire.

On the other hand, I do like that (some) Zombies can make other Zombies.
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markusin

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #282 on: October 30, 2017, 05:48:58 pm »
0


You keep saying Swindler, but the topic was Locusts. Swindlering a Royal Blacksmith gets you another one. Not so with Locusts. Other than that, I did read the entire post this time, and I remain as unconvinced as you - unconvinced that getting Royal Blacksmith removed from your deck doesn't falls into all three categories of low frequency, high severity, and low player agency. Swindler is actually way more predictable.

Not to mention that Famine, War, and maybe Bad Omens can skip over the Royal Blacksmith just like Swindler would.
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mameluke

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #283 on: October 30, 2017, 05:57:02 pm »
0

Throneability isn't a great way to judge a card's strength because most of the time there are no throne variants. Werewolf is definitely a stronger Hexer than Skulk because it's non-terminal.
Completely agreed. I brought up throneability mostly in connection with how degenerate can the card be at it's worst.

Personally, I hope it doesn't get any worse than it is with Werewolf...

My first game with Werewolf had Vampire in it, too. My opponent got an early Vampire and kept gaining Werewolves, using one or two for draw and then spent the rest of the turn in the Night phase sending hexes my way. It wasn't much fun.
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Cave-o-sapien

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #284 on: October 30, 2017, 06:27:04 pm »
0

My first game with Werewolf had Vampire in it, too. My opponent got an early Vampire and kept gaining Werewolves, using one or two for draw and then spent the rest of the turn in the Night phase sending hexes my way. It wasn't much fun.

Small sample size and all that, but a T1/T2 Vampire with other good 5-cards seems really strong (but not uniquely strong among 5-costs). It will be interesting to see where we rank it after a few months of regular play.
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FemurLemur

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #285 on: October 30, 2017, 07:31:17 pm »
0

You keep saying Swindler, but the topic was Locusts. Swindlering a Royal Blacksmith gets you another one. Not so with Locusts. Other than that, I did read the entire post this time,

Swindler was to get us off of the topic of a theoretical new card and onto one which we are all already familiar with, in order to get you to stop misrepresenting what I had previously said as some kind of one size fits all rule of how to address Locusts.

Are you sure you read it? I could swear I edited the post and addressed the Swindler thing already, like, 3 hours before you posted your response...

As for your main response regarding frequency, severity, and player agency, that's totally fine if you are unconvinced, but you are the one who made a claim (that Locusts was too swingy), so it's not really my job to convince you in this exchange.
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FemurLemur

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #286 on: October 30, 2017, 07:35:46 pm »
0


You keep saying Swindler, but the topic was Locusts. Swindlering a Royal Blacksmith gets you another one. Not so with Locusts. Other than that, I did read the entire post this time, and I remain as unconvinced as you - unconvinced that getting Royal Blacksmith removed from your deck doesn't falls into all three categories of low frequency, high severity, and low player agency. Swindler is actually way more predictable.

Not to mention that Famine, War, and maybe Bad Omens can skip over the Royal Blacksmith just like Swindler would.

Multiple Swindlers also won't get in each others' ways, whereas multiple Hexes can.

Not that it matters. Because, y'know, I already cautioned against fixating on Swindler itself. I was just talking about any card with low probabilities of messing up your plans.
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markusin

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #287 on: October 30, 2017, 08:15:07 pm »
+1


You keep saying Swindler, but the topic was Locusts. Swindlering a Royal Blacksmith gets you another one. Not so with Locusts. Other than that, I did read the entire post this time, and I remain as unconvinced as you - unconvinced that getting Royal Blacksmith removed from your deck doesn't falls into all three categories of low frequency, high severity, and low player agency. Swindler is actually way more predictable.

Not to mention that Famine, War, and maybe Bad Omens can skip over the Royal Blacksmith just like Swindler would.

Multiple Swindlers also won't get in each others' ways, whereas multiple Hexes can.

Not that it matters. Because, y'know, I already cautioned against fixating on Swindler itself. I was just talking about any card with low probabilities of messing up your plans.

I think in general, early Hexes are especially powerful, because there is only so much you can build by the time you have to suffer against them. Having say Famine or War skip over your opening buy during the second shuffle will suck, but on the other hand the discard attacks will be fairly tame by then.

Edit: well, considering the chance of getting the right Hex to hit the right target, I guess it's similar to Sea Hag hitting the opponent's Sea Hag. We've seen that before, but it's not like that isn't devastating.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2017, 08:23:48 pm by markusin »
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Asper

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #288 on: November 02, 2017, 11:15:14 pm »
0

So I mentioned this before, but is there any reason why Locusts doesn't give you a Curse when it trashes a Curse? I mean, obviously all games with Hexes have Curses. I'm not sure whether this is an oversight or meant to tie in with the "random" theme of Boons and Hexes. Or was the idea here just, nah, that's not going to happen often enough to be worth the one word?
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LastFootnote

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #289 on: November 02, 2017, 11:49:42 pm »
0

So I mentioned this before, but is there any reason why Locusts doesn't give you a Curse when it trashes a Curse? I mean, obviously all games with Hexes have Curses. I'm not sure whether this is an oversight or meant to tie in with the "random" theme of Boons and Hexes. Or was the idea here just, nah, that's not going to happen often enough to be worth the one word?

Not going to happen enough to be worth one word. Although maybe in reality it will. Pretty sure that was the thinking, though.
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Donald X.

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #290 on: November 03, 2017, 03:33:01 am »
+5

So I mentioned this before, but is there any reason why Locusts doesn't give you a Curse when it trashes a Curse? I mean, obviously all games with Hexes have Curses. I'm not sure whether this is an oversight or meant to tie in with the "random" theme of Boons and Hexes. Or was the idea here just, nah, that's not going to happen often enough to be worth the one word?
Many of the things I regret in published Dominion cards involve me adding extra words to try to squeeze out extra play value from something. These days I struggle to not do that. So I do not just add a word for an uncommon situation.

It was no secret that Locusts could trash a Curse. And I have seen it trash Curses. And those were good times, net happiness increased.
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Gherald

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #291 on: November 03, 2017, 06:56:10 am »
0

The comparison/contrast with Swindler is again useful. A enjoyable and key aspect of attacks like Swindler is knowing when to spam it and when to not. For example, the common enough situation of a Swindler board with no trashing. Opening one Swindler is generally a no-brainer there, and double Swindler is very often smart, but those Swindlers have an expiration date: once the curse pile is empty, you run the risk of turning your opponent's curses back into coppers. So what do you do? Play Swindler less often, don't buy one to replace those that get turned into Silvers or worse, and hope your opponent is dumb enough to keep spamming the attack. I have won games where the VP difference was the curses I used to have that my opponent turned back into coppers.

In the case of Doom attacks, we've just got a lot of random crap going on all the time. You might devastate your opponent's deck, or you might help him by trashing a curse or activating his menagerie or draw-to-X or whatever. No one has any real clue how things are going to play out, all you can do is try to out-attack your opponent and hope fate is more on your side than theirs.

I don't like this. It's not terrible, it's novel, it's something different, yada yada. But it's not living up to the high standard of what Dominion was before Nocturne.
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Jeebus

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #292 on: November 03, 2017, 10:02:30 am »
+3

and hope fate is more on your side than theirs.

You mean doom. ...Sorry. :p

LastFootnote

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #293 on: November 03, 2017, 10:23:56 am »
+2

The comparison/contrast with Swindler is again useful. A enjoyable and key aspect of attacks like Swindler is knowing when to spam it and when to not. For example, the common enough situation of a Swindler board with no trashing. Opening one Swindler is generally a no-brainer there, and double Swindler is very often smart, but those Swindlers have an expiration date: once the curse pile is empty, you run the risk of turning your opponent's curses back into coppers. So what do you do? Play Swindler less often, don't buy one to replace those that get turned into Silvers or worse, and hope your opponent is dumb enough to keep spamming the attack. I have won games where the VP difference was the curses I used to have that my opponent turned back into coppers.

In the case of Doom attacks, we've just got a lot of random crap going on all the time. You might devastate your opponent's deck, or you might help him by trashing a curse or activating his menagerie or draw-to-X or whatever. No one has any real clue how things are going to play out, all you can do is try to out-attack your opponent and hope fate is more on your side than theirs.

I don't like this. It's not terrible, it's novel, it's something different, yada yada. But it's not living up to the high standard of what Dominion was before Nocturne.

I think I've done so constructively -- not repetitiously.

Are you just feeling like you’re not being heard? Trust me, you are. Your message has been received. Hexes are worse than Swindler’s attack because there’s less strategy around them. Got it.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2017, 10:27:59 am by LastFootnote »
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mee

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #294 on: November 03, 2017, 12:41:02 pm »
0

just wondering how that village will play with night cards since you will have a lot of dead cards in hand b4 the night phase
it seems weird that Donald would put in a card that discourages the other cards in the set
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markusin

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #295 on: November 03, 2017, 01:25:18 pm »
0

just wondering how that village will play with night cards since you will have a lot of dead cards in hand b4 the night phase
it seems weird that Donald would put in a card that discourages the other cards in the set

Rebuild game out in the set that introduced Shelters. I think it's fine if a card isn't as strong overall in games heavy with its own expansion than it is in full random.

Then again, maybe we should not look to Rebuild for examples.
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tastor

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #296 on: November 03, 2017, 04:52:22 pm »
+1

just wondering how that village will play with night cards since you will have a lot of dead cards in hand b4 the night phase
it seems weird that Donald would put in a card that discourages the other cards in the set

Don't think it discourages them so much as they just don't directly combo. But then, neither does big draw which is your usual go to combo with a village. You still get the actions and the first one you play on an ordinary turn will draw 2 cards which isn't anything to sneeze at.

For that matter, though, any village is already redundant with Night cards because you don't need those extra actions in the first place. They are definitely a shift in the usual engine paradigm.
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SuperHans

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #297 on: November 03, 2017, 05:37:56 pm »
+1

just wondering how that village will play with night cards since you will have a lot of dead cards in hand b4 the night phase
it seems weird that Donald would put in a card that discourages the other cards in the set
Not all cards synergize.
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Cave-o-sapien

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #298 on: November 03, 2017, 05:50:24 pm »
+2

Are you just feeling like you’re not being heard? Trust me, you are. Your message has been received. Hexes are worse than Swindler’s attack because there’s less strategy around them. Got it.

It seems like you see someone complaining about something and parroting the same thing over and over.

I see someone trying to understand and articulate what it is they dislike about that thing.

I don't see why the latter is so objectionable. You may disagree with it, but I think it's interesting.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #299 on: November 03, 2017, 06:07:28 pm »
+2

Are you just feeling like you’re not being heard? Trust me, you are. Your message has been received. Hexes are worse than Swindler’s attack because there’s less strategy around them. Got it.

It seems like you see someone complaining about something and parroting the same thing over and over.

I see someone trying to understand and articulate what it is they dislike about that thing.

I don't see why the latter is so objectionable. You may disagree with it, but I think it's interesting.

And I’m just trying to say, “I understand and accept your point.”
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