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Author Topic: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village  (Read 29495 times)

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Witherweaver

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #225 on: October 28, 2017, 12:56:23 pm »
+2

In other words, play enough Werewolves consistently enough, and your opponent will usually be hurt the amount you expect him to be.

And how much is that?

More than you think  ;)

90-93%
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Awaclus

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #226 on: October 28, 2017, 12:59:35 pm »
+2

In other words, play enough Werewolves consistently enough, and your opponent will usually be hurt the amount you expect him to be.

And how much is that?

More than you think  ;)

90-93%

What does it mean to be 90-93% hurt?
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LastFootnote

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #227 on: October 28, 2017, 01:05:13 pm »
+5

In other words, play enough Werewolves consistently enough, and your opponent will usually be hurt the amount you expect him to be.

And how much is that?

More than you think  ;)

90-93%

What does it mean to be 90-93% hurt?

I don’t know, but it sounds pretty brutal.
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Jeebus

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #228 on: October 28, 2017, 01:42:35 pm »
+1

I'm not sure I really get the idea that boons and hexes are more swingy than a lot of other existing cards. Perhaps the randomness is a little more in-your-face obvious. But there's plenty of cards that have something of a "random" effect when you play them:

Playing Smithy as your first/last action: gives anywhere from + to +. Like Harvest but way swingier.

Swindler is obvious, and people have complained about the swingyness before.

Black Market - maybe buy a great card, maybe get no good options.

Golem - Play 2 cards, but you don't know which 2.

Tournament - Maybe a Ruined Village, maybe a Peddler.

Gold - While not swingy when you play it, just as random in terms of when you draw it. Maybe it gets you a Province, maybe you already had more than without it.

Militia - Maybe your opponent discards 2 Estates and does care, maybe you just turned an amazing turn into a do-nothing turn. More obvious with Minion.

So yeah, I can see that the "take 1 of 12 random effects" feels more random. Maybe because there's more options, but I think people would complains just as much if it were 2 boons in the pile instead of 12. But aside from the fact that there has always been a huge amount of luck in Dominion, the answer to all of these cards has always been the same... play them often and expect the averages to work out to the way they should. In other words, play enough Werewolves consistently enough, and your opponent will usually be hurt the amount you expect him to be.

Black Market is actually my most hated card and I view it as way too swingy. Tournament is also up there, and so is Swindler. So comparing Boons to these cards is actually not helping your point. I disagree about the others. You often know what's left in your deck when you play Smithy, but the main point is that it's the deck you crafted. Golem likewise will hit the Actions you put in it. Of course it could hit two terminals when you're hoping for +Action, but that's the same as starting your turn with two Smithies and no Villages, the inherent luck of Dominion, and again connected to how you composed your deck. Gold and Militia: You're just talking about shuffle luck really, which is inherent to Dominion. Your ultimate point seems to be kind of, Dominion already has a big element of luck, so a card that introduces more luck makes no difference.

Minotaur

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #229 on: October 28, 2017, 01:45:45 pm »
+5

That makes Werewolf an Action - Night - Attack - Doom card. The Courtiers all like Dame Josephine, but they like Werewolves too.


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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #230 on: October 28, 2017, 02:34:30 pm »
+3

I'm not sure I really get the idea that boons and hexes are more swingy than a lot of other existing cards. Perhaps the randomness is a little more in-your-face obvious. But there's plenty of cards that have something of a "random" effect when you play them:
The difference, as I see it, is that normal cards have random effects based on the contents of your deck, which you have intentionally crafted over the course of the game, but you have no control over what appears in the Boon deck. Sometimes you're just going to get a Silver whether you like it or not.

That's a fair point.
I think this, in a nutshell, is why Hexes have been getting a lot of hate. "You make your own shuffle luck" no longer applies now. There are ways to strategically deal with other attacks when you at least know the type of attack you'll be hit by them. With junking attacks you can get more trashers or sifters. With trashing attacks you can buffer your deck with cheap junk. With handsize attacks you can get draw-up-to-x or build an engine that can draw itself even with a reduced handsize.

How do you prepare for a Hex, though? You can't, really. It's just a random annoyance that you have to swallow. Personally, I'm not at the point where I absolutely hate Doom cards, but it's definitely not my favorite mechanic.
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Asper

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #231 on: October 28, 2017, 02:38:30 pm »
+4

In other words, play enough Werewolves consistently enough, and your opponent will usually be hurt the amount you expect him to be.

And how much is that?

More than you think  ;)

90-93%

What does it mean to be 90-93% hurt?

I don’t know, but it sounds pretty brutal.

But not as brutal as one might assume.

trivialknot

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #232 on: October 28, 2017, 02:48:36 pm »
+1

I'm not sure about hexes, but in general, the strategy for dealing with random chance, is to always play your best, even when you're far ahead or far behind.  When you're ahead you want to be able to overcome any bad luck, and when you're behind you want to make sure that if you get lucky you can turn it into victory.
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Minotaur

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #233 on: October 28, 2017, 02:48:44 pm »
+2

In other words, play enough Werewolves consistently enough, and your opponent will usually be hurt the amount you expect him to be.

And how much is that?

More than you think  ;)

90-93%

What does it mean to be 90-93% hurt?

I don’t know, but it sounds pretty brutal.

But not as brutal as one might assume.

I'm pretty heckin wrecked overall, but my left foot's never been better.
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Asper

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #234 on: October 28, 2017, 02:54:26 pm »
+1

If I had to sort Nocturne mechanics from favourite to least favourite, I'd certainly put Heirlooms best, the sub-theme of unique cards second, night somewhere in the midlle, and Boons/Hexes lowest. I can't really decide which is better or worse. They are the same thing, just that one is "good random thing" and the other is "bad random thing". I can just say that having Gold in hand and then being randomly hit by Envy has this minion-esque "Great, now my hand's worthless" feeling. It's not great.

Gubump

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #235 on: October 28, 2017, 03:27:11 pm »
+1

I personally find the Boons to be a lot less swingy than the Hexes.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #236 on: October 28, 2017, 03:42:45 pm »
+7

In other words, play enough Werewolves consistently enough, and your opponent will usually be hurt the amount you expect him to be.

And how much is that?

More than you think  ;)

90-93%

What does it mean to be 90-93% hurt?

I don’t know, but it sounds pretty brutal.

But not as brutal as one might assume.

More brutal when compared to less brutal attacks.
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FemurLemur

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #237 on: October 28, 2017, 03:54:21 pm »
0

I drew Locusts and hit my opponent's Royal Blacksmith. There was no replacement. The debt was not even paid off yet. That is way swingier than Swindler.

I don't see this as a flaw with the Hexes. Your opponent knows Locusts is 1 of 12 possible attacks. They should not have bought Royal Blacksmith.
If their Royal Blacksmith is one of 17 cards in their deck, then being hexed has only a 1 in 200 chance of trashing their Royal Blacksmith.

Avoiding an otherwise good strategy because of a 1 in 200 risk is not winning play.

That's not my recommendation. Don't "avoid an otherwise good strategy", replace it with a better strategy. One not susceptible to that 1 in 200 risk. We could talk all day about "otherwise good strategies", but the point is that, it wasn't a good strategy if there was another one available which wouldn't have gotten ruined by Locusts.

If you want to argue that there isn't always a strategy available that isn't susceptible, that's fine. But please don't misrepresent my point. But I'm not suggesting that you play a sub-optimal strategy to save yourself from a 1 in 200 chance of disaster.

Edit: I shouldn't assume you intended to misrepresent me
« Last Edit: October 28, 2017, 04:28:16 pm by FemurLemur »
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FemurLemur

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #238 on: October 28, 2017, 04:17:58 pm »
+4

I drew Locusts and hit my opponent's Royal Blacksmith. There was no replacement. The debt was not even paid off yet. That is way swingier than Swindler.

I don't see this as a flaw with the Hexes. Your opponent knows Locusts is 1 of 12 possible attacks. They should not have bought Royal Blacksmith.

I stopped reading there.

Why even reply then?

"Lol I don't even read opposing viewpoints. Isn't my ignorance cute you guys?"
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Donald X.

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #239 on: October 28, 2017, 05:13:01 pm »
+13

Black Market is actually my most hated card and I view it as way too swingy. Tournament is also up there, and so is Swindler. So comparing Boons to these cards is actually not helping your point. I disagree about the others. You often know what's left in your deck when you play Smithy, but the main point is that it's the deck you crafted. Golem likewise will hit the Actions you put in it. Of course it could hit two terminals when you're hoping for +Action, but that's the same as starting your turn with two Smithies and no Villages, the inherent luck of Dominion, and again connected to how you composed your deck. Gold and Militia: You're just talking about shuffle luck really, which is inherent to Dominion. Your ultimate point seems to be kind of, Dominion already has a big element of luck, so a card that introduces more luck makes no difference.
As I endlessly enjoy pointing out, actual data shows that Black Market is one of the cards that most means that we expect the better player to win in games using it, while Smithy is at the other end of the spectrum, making our knowledge of player skill especially less useful for predicting the winner. Tournament is firmly on the "good for the better player" side, though not way at the top like Black Market; Swindler is in fact swingy.

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=2798.msg47781#msg47781

It is not even clear if adding "receive a Boon" to a card would reduce our ability to predict the winner (based on player skill) for games using it, vs. if it didn't have that text (and ignoring how much the card favored the better player to begin with). It should make the card more random, but ability to evaluate cards is significant. Maybe the good players have a better grip on how much of a benefit "receive a Boon" is, on when to do the optional things, on how the board is affected.

But perception is everything. If people don't like Black Market because they think it means the impact of skill is reduced, then they don't like Black Market, and them being wrong there doesn't matter. If you think Militia is fine but Skulk is too random, well, I don't know if Skulk would be above or below Militia on that chart, I don't have the data and it isn't obvious to me, but it doesn't matter in terms of you liking the cards. If you hate Skulk that's that, you hate it.
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Gherald

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #240 on: October 28, 2017, 06:22:42 pm »
+1

Agreed with DX that Black Market is an amazing card for skilled players. I smile every time I see it in the kingdom.

Many things about Dominion are random, beginning the first shuffling of 3 estates and 7 treasures into your starting deck. So when you evaluate a card with instructions and play that add additional randomness (which practically all cards do to varying degrees), you should also evaluate how many interesting and skillful decisions it adds to the game. Black Market pretty much does that in spades and better than any other single card. It's amazing to play with.

It is not even clear if adding "receive a Boon" to a card would reduce our ability to predict the winner (based on player skill) for games using it, vs. if it didn't have that text (and ignoring how much the card favored the better player to begin with). It should make the card more random, but ability to evaluate cards is significant. Maybe the good players have a better grip on how much of a benefit "receive a Boon" is, on when to do the optional things, on how the board is affected.
This is completely on point; I've certainly gotten a lot better at evaluating boons in just the past few days, and this isn't surprising to me.

The real question has always been: are boons fun to evaluate and keep track of? Overall I don't think so, partly due to the online interface not being so great. So far my verdict is "Meh. I can do without these."
Quote
But perception is everything. If people don't like Black Market because they think it means the impact of skill is reduced, then they don't like Black Market, and them being wrong there doesn't matter. If you think Militia is fine but Skulk is too random, well, I don't know if Skulk would be above or below Militia on that chart, I don't have the data and it isn't obvious to me, but it doesn't matter in terms of you liking the cards. If you hate Skulk that's that, you hate it.
Hexes are another matter, I very much dislike them. They are swingy in the way that Swindler is swingy -- maybe even more so -- but what makes them worse is they are much harder to counter than Swindler.

When Swindler is on the board without Fairgrounds and Farmland, it's easy to counter. You evaluate how many Swindlers you want based on your action/draw economy (opening double Swindler is often a good play), and you buy a lot of high-cost and especially $6 and $8 cost cards as soon as possible, instead of investing in too many things that will become Duchies. You also want to turn your opponent's Silvers into extra Swindlers if they have enough terminals that you'll make them collide...a surprising number of otherwise decent players miss this and give their opponents a new Silver.

But hexes? Hexes are a nasty roulette. There's varying ways to counter each one, but how do you know which ones are going to hit you? You'd like to be prepared for a plethora of low-probability events, but doing so is expensive and slows you down. The simplest strategy seems to be to try to Hex your opponent a little bit more than they hex you, similar to "winning the curse split". Except it's all a much more random crapshoot.
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Donald X.

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #241 on: October 28, 2017, 06:46:28 pm »
+6

Hexes are another matter, I very much dislike them.
These forums are there for you, even if you just want to use them to repeat over and over how much you hate these cards. They won't be breaking into your house and forcing themselves into your games; maybe next expansion.
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Gherald

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #242 on: October 28, 2017, 07:09:37 pm »
+4

That’s not really fair. Sorry to be criticizing your work, but I think I've done so constructively -- not repetitiously. I thought the comparison/contrast to how Swindler plays was pretty useful.
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Cave-o-sapien

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #243 on: October 28, 2017, 07:42:48 pm »
+1

Hexes are another matter, I very much dislike them.
These forums are there for you, even if you just want to use them to repeat over and over how much you hate these cards. They won't be breaking into your house and forcing themselves into your games; maybe next expansion.

Yikes. Not a great look.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #244 on: October 28, 2017, 08:05:26 pm »
+2

That’s not really fair. Sorry to be criticizing your work, but I think I've done so constructively -- not repetitiously.



I completely understand your point about being able to play around and counter most attacks, and I agree with it. I also find that that makes for good gameplay. But having some attacks that aren't like that doesn't magically make the attacks that are disappear. It doesn't even make them that much less common; the set has Idol and Raider as more "traditional" attacks.

I can think of Hexes like Treasure Map. If my opponent connects Treasure Maps on turn 5, man there was no way I could prepare for that either. There are an endless number of things in Dominion that I can't play around. Even some attacks are that way in some games. If I have no trashing or sifting available, how do I play around my opponent's Witch? That's right, I play my own Witches as much as possible and try to win the split. Likewise with Militia and no good way to counter it, etc.

It's easy to think of Hexes as this strictly-bad-for-the-game element. But the thing is, it's been an immensely popular mechanic with basically everybody I playtested with. In my usual group, for example, it took a long time for them to come around to Boons (partly because early on the Boon deck wasn't nearly as good), but they liked Hexes immediately. There's just something about flipping over that Hex card and seeing what you get. And—although this doesn't apply to most of the folks I play with—some people love "take that" elements, and Hexes are a grab bag of endless variety for them. It is a shame that the full Boon/Hex experience doesn't translate as cleanly to an online implementation.

Yikes. Not a great look.

Jesus, have some empathy.
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Gherald

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #245 on: October 28, 2017, 08:47:08 pm »
0

I take your point about a T5 treasure map, a fine analogy in some ways. But I like Treasure Map, because I feel like that has more agency. Deciding to go for Treasure Map is a risk, one which seldom pays off without good enablers (warehouse, haven, topdeckers, whatever) -- and using those enablers to proc it is a skill.

Hexing people and being hexed throughout the game doesn't have any of that agency or skill for me. It's just a flood of random stuff to deal with -- which takes away rather than adds to everything else I like about Dominion.
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Donald X.

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #246 on: October 28, 2017, 08:51:08 pm »
+5

Hexes are another matter, I very much dislike them.
These forums are there for you, even if you just want to use them to repeat over and over how much you hate these cards. They won't be breaking into your house and forcing themselves into your games; maybe next expansion.

Yikes. Not a great look.
I'm there for you for however you want to look at me, even if it's "he's that awful guy." I mean I helplessly look at people through whatever tinted glasses too. When you say you don't like hexes, I think, bummer, I hope most people like them. When you say, "Yikes. Not a great look," I think, phew, there's someone I don't care about pleasing. How's that look for ya.
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Jeebus

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #247 on: October 28, 2017, 09:14:48 pm »
0

As I endlessly enjoy pointing out, actual data shows that Black Market is one of the cards that most means that we expect the better player to win in games using it, while Smithy is at the other end of the spectrum, making our knowledge of player skill especially less useful for predicting the winner.

Yes, I've heard that before, but now I think I can give a clear response. I will assume that it's true. And it makes sense, because Black Market gives you many options to choose from, 3 each time you play it (well, on average less than 3, since you can't always afford all 3). So it's comparable to the "+" tokens from Adventures: many options that will reward the player who chooses wisely. But the thing is, can't it also be the case that Black Market introduces a lot of randomness into the game? If both players are reasonably good (which is the case when I play online), the question is much less who will make the better choice, as it is, who will get the opportunity. The opportunity to get that sorely needed village or trasher or junker (especially if it's early in the game of course). So I stand by my assertion.

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #248 on: October 28, 2017, 09:34:06 pm »
0

Quote
the question is much less who will make the better choice, as it is, who will get the opportunity.
Who will get the opportunity is the question you (Jeebus) most notice, but it is not as important as making many good choices -- not only which and when and whether to buy, but also how to play the cards as they come up and combine them with the rest of the kingdom into a winning deck that responds well to what your opponent is doing (and the cards they got) . There are enormously enjoyable decisions and complexities here that you are flat-out ignoring when you assess the card, so your assessment is very much lacking. You can stand by your assertion as you like, but it's very simplistic and wrong.
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Awaclus

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #249 on: October 28, 2017, 09:45:17 pm »
0

Yes, I've heard that before, but now I think I can give a clear response. I will assume that it's true. And it makes sense, because Black Market gives you many options to choose from, 3 each time you play it (well, on average less than 3, since you can't always afford all 3). So it's comparable to the "+" tokens from Adventures: many options that will reward the player who chooses wisely. But the thing is, can't it also be the case that Black Market introduces a lot of randomness into the game? If both players are reasonably good (which is the case when I play online), the question is much less who will make the better choice, as it is, who will get the opportunity. The opportunity to get that sorely needed village or trasher or junker (especially if it's early in the game of course). So I stand by my assertion.

I don't think Black Market is a high skill card because it gives you three options to choose from. It's almost always obvious which one of the three is the best for your deck. Rather, it's a high skill card because of the randomness — you have to be able to judge how likely things are, how bad is it if they don't go the way you'd like, how to prepare for it in advance, and how to deal with it after the fact when things didn't go the way you would have liked. The same is true for Hexes, you need those same skills in order to perform well in games with Dooms.

Black Market has the extra skill intensive qualities of being asymmetrical and doing a different thing every time you play it, too, which are also present in Hexes to a smaller degree.
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