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Author Topic: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village  (Read 122983 times)

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Cave-o-sapien

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #200 on: October 27, 2017, 04:47:30 pm »
+1

It's like complaining about your Terminals colliding. If you're mad that your Turn 3 seems to sometimes be two Smithies, and sometimes just one, maybe you should stop buying two Smithies on the opening. It's not that Smithy is a "swingy" card. It's buyer's remorse.

The probability of those two terminals colliding on T3 or T4 is about 30%. The probability of getting hexed and losing your Royal Blacksmith, assuming you have, say, 20 cards in your deck, is about 0.5%. Surely there is a bit of a difference?

Not arguing for or against Hexes here, just saying that avoiding to buy Royal Blacksmith because Hexes kinda sounds like a losing move.

By this logic, you wouldn't buy a Mountebank if Swindler was out, because it could get turned into a Duchy.
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crj

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #201 on: October 27, 2017, 04:47:56 pm »
+1

Incidentally, I've only just noticed: Locusts are beneficial if they hit a Curse, trashing it and giving you nothing in return, aren't they?
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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #202 on: October 27, 2017, 04:52:02 pm »
+1

Incidentally, I've only just noticed: Locusts are beneficial if they hit a Curse, trashing it and giving you nothing in return, aren't they?

Yep!
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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #203 on: October 27, 2017, 04:58:42 pm »
+1

And then my opponent's War trashed my Ghost...

Arguably that’s a problem with Ghost’s cost. All the Spirits could have cost more, and Exorcist could have been adjusted accordingly, but then Will-o’-Wisps couldn’t draw Imps.

Presumably a way around this (if costs of the spirits were increased) would be to have worded Will-o’-Wisps as "Reveal the top card of your deck. If it is a Spirit or costs 2 coins or less, put it into your hand." This would mean that Will-o’-Wisps could also draw Ghosts. An increase in cost would also have made the spirits combo better with trash for benefit cards, protected Ghost against War, and improved what you can gain when Locusted. It might have been too much of a buff in addition to being slightly wordier.
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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #204 on: October 27, 2017, 05:03:09 pm »
+5

From the games I have played, it looks like the luck factor introduced by Boons and Hexes is negligible next to all the luck that already existed in Dominion to begin with.

And then my opponent's War trashed my Ghost...

Arguably that’s a problem with Ghost’s cost. All the Spirits could have cost more, and Exorcist could have been adjusted accordingly, but then Will-o’-Wisps couldn’t draw Imps.

Well, really it's just a problem with trashing attacks being able to hit difficult-to-acquire cards. It also happens with Swindler and Mercenary, Swindler and Travellers, etc.
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TheSeal

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #205 on: October 27, 2017, 05:07:15 pm »
0

Add me to the list of those who find Hexes more bad than Boons are good. Misery can be brutal and it's completely out of your control. Unless something like Lighthouse is in the game, it's purely random. I think that's what bothers me most about Hexes. It's random bad stuff that cannot be well controlled and therefore is not distributed remotely evenly across the players.

Back to Misery there is no way to remove it. If you are in a game with a lot of cards that draw Hexes, you're going to get it. It seems the only defense is to make sure you buy as many Hex drawing cards as your opponent which  sucks if that's not a strategy you would prefer. It reminds me of a knight battle. You have to buy knights because your opponent is snapping them up. The difference is once all the knights have trashed each other you can get about the business of the game. With Hexes it never ends.

Alright one of you strategy wonks, please tell me where I'm wrong and how to protect. against Hexes more generally.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2017, 05:10:37 pm by TheSeal »
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AJD

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #206 on: October 27, 2017, 05:12:13 pm »
+5

I mean, in a sense, the way to remove Misery is "play Monument twice".
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ThetaSigma12

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #207 on: October 27, 2017, 05:16:22 pm »
0

I mean, in a sense, the way to remove Misery is "play Monument twice".

This. Misery often seems more brutal than it actually is. It's no worse than losing the Curse split 6-4 with no trashing, or your opponent getting 2 more tokens than you. Even then, what percentage of games do you win by only 2 or fewer points? I generally win my games by at least a 5 or 6 point margin.

2 VP is very marginal. When your opponent gets a Harem, you don't think, man, what a lead.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2017, 05:18:12 pm by ThetaSigma12 »
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Awaclus

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #208 on: October 27, 2017, 05:19:57 pm »
+2

Add me to the list of those who find Hexes more bad than Boons are good. Misery can be brutal and it's completely out of your control. Unless something like Lighthouse is in the game, it's purely random. I think that's what bothers me most about Hexes. It's random bad stuff that cannot be well controlled and therefore is not distributed remotely evenly across the players.

Back to Misery there is no way to remove it. If you are in a game with a lot of cards that draw Hexes, you're going to get it. It seems the only defense is to make sure you buy as many Hex drawing cards as your opponent which  sucks if that's not a strategy you would prefer. It reminds me of a knight battle. You have to buy knights because your opponent is snapping them up. The difference is once all the knights have trashed each other you can get about the business of the game. With Hexes it never ends.

Alright one of you strategy wonks, please tell me where I'm wrong and how to protect. against Hexes more generally.

Well, Misery is exactly as brutal as your opponent discarding an Action card to Arena. It's just a point swing, it doesn't matter whether you're losing points or your opponent is gaining them.
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Cave-o-sapien

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #209 on: October 27, 2017, 05:21:57 pm »
+6

I mean, in a sense, the way to remove Misery is "play Monument twice".

This. Misery often seems more brutal than it actually is. It's no worse than losing the Curse split 6-4 with no trashing, or your opponent getting 2 more tokens than you. Even then, what percentage of games do you win by only 2 or fewer points? I generally win my games by at least a 5 or 6 point margin.

2 VP is very marginal. When your opponent gets a Harem, you don't think, man, what a lead.

Crucially, Misery isn’t clogging your deck. It’s probably often more benign than a Ruins.
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markusin

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #210 on: October 27, 2017, 06:08:39 pm »
0

Misery is just there to remind you maybe have to worry about Hexes this game. By itself, Misery is tolerable, but it comes in games that also have War, Locusts, Bad Omens, and the like. It's part of the "death by a thousand cuts" threat pushed by Hexes.

Thinking about it some more, Misery is unlikely to hurt too bad because most cards that feature Hexes help explosive engine strategies. Werewolf is draw, Vampire is a gainer and trasher, Cursed Village is a pretty (very?) good village, Skulk has +buy. In such games, there are definitely worse Hexes. Really, Leprechaun is the odd one that might find itself in games where one province a turn is the best you can hope for, and there Misery can hurt.
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TheSeal

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #211 on: October 27, 2017, 06:18:38 pm »
+1

In all the cases mentioned, I have some way to respond. I can buy a Harem. I can take advantage of the Arena. I can increase by draw to compensate for the extra curses or ruins in my hand. I have nothing with in my control to directly compensate for Misery.

In a game I just played, I had a one Province lead. I had more than enough money to buy the last Province. My opponent played a Vampire which gave me Envious. He bought a Duchy on that turn and I couldn't buy any points on mine. My opponent was able to buy the last Province on his next turn.  That win did not come through smart play on my opponent's part or an error on mine. It was just dumb luck. I'd been leading throughout the game the my opponent was not far behind. I new I had more money and more draw than my opponent. Based on that, I bought that second to the last Province rather than a Duchy as I would when I'm not sure if I could buy the last one on my next turn.

Maybe with more play they'll grow on my but right now I feel like Hexes just introduce too much luck into the game.
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Gherald

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #212 on: October 27, 2017, 06:33:14 pm »
+1

But is it something we want to play all the time? Repeated games of? Pseudo-competitively? I think not. What we've seen of Nocturne so far will probably make it one of the least-liked expansions, out of all of them. It's not bad, it's okay -- it's just not rising to any level of greatness. I'd rather play with Alchemy than Nocturne, mmk?
I don't get this criticism at all. Hexes are at worst a Cursing or Saboteur-like effect, which are/were regular features of Dominion. Why does the fact that Hex is often less bad than the worst case suddenly make it an unattractive concept?
It's not a matter of which one is worse, it's a matter of which can be predited. Cursing is predictable, hexing isn't. I know what happens if I choose to play my Witch as my last action vs. something else. I don't know what's going to happen when making a decision to hex or not to hex with my Skulk or Werewolf. Maybe my hex will trash your only Warrior and win the game, or maybe it will let your Menagerie proc and actually help you get off a great turn. Who the hell knows?

To be fair, your example of Cursing is cherry-picked. If I play Militia, it also might not hurt my opponent at all. Knights are even more likely to whiff, and likewise spies.
That was SCSN's example, but it applies just as well to Militia. I know within about 5 seconds of looking at the initial board whether I want to buy 0, 1, or possibly more than one Militia that game. I can foresee under what circumstances playing one can be good for me, or not good for me.

Whereas I have no idea (or at least very little patience for tracking) whether choosing to proc a hexer like Skulk or Werewolf is going to be worth it, vs other things I could choose to do with my action/draw economy.

(I do think Hexes and Boons are probably more fun with physical cards than they are online...but there are other opportunity costs to having a physical 11th expansion. This one doesn't pass muster with what we've previewed so far. Which is fine, there are 10 others worth having.)
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tastor

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #213 on: October 27, 2017, 06:34:49 pm »
0

In all the cases mentioned, I have some way to respond. I can buy a Harem. I can take advantage of the Arena. I can increase by draw to compensate for the extra curses or ruins in my hand. I have nothing with in my control to directly compensate for Misery.

In a game I just played, I had a one Province lead. I had more than enough money to buy the last Province. My opponent played a Vampire which gave me Envious. He bought a Duchy on that turn and I couldn't buy any points on mine. My opponent was able to buy the last Province on his next turn.  That win did not come through smart play on my opponent's part or an error on mine. It was just dumb luck. I'd been leading throughout the game the my opponent was not far behind. I new I had more money and more draw than my opponent. Based on that, I bought that second to the last Province rather than a Duchy as I would when I'm not sure if I could buy the last one on my next turn.

Maybe with more play they'll grow on my but right now I feel like Hexes just introduce too much luck into the game.

I mean, that is unlucky and I feel for you, but it sounds like you were tied before you bought that second to last (your fourth) Province, so it could have just as easily meant that you drew 3 or 4 Provinces on that last turn and been in the exact same situation where your opponent bought a Duchy and then a Province to win. Which would also be super unlucky but not out of the scope of the game as it stands.
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Cave-o-sapien

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #214 on: October 27, 2017, 06:46:40 pm »
0

That was SCSN's example, but it applies just as well to Militia. I know within about 5 seconds of looking at the initial board whether I want to buy 0, 1, or possibly more than one Militia that game. I can foresee under what circumstances playing one can be good for me, or not good for me.

Whereas I have no idea (or at least very little patience for tracking) whether choosing to proc a hexer like Skulk or Werewolf is going to be worth it, vs other things I could choose to do with my action/draw economy.

And of course, the complement to this: how to respond to an opponent investing in Doom cards.
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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #215 on: October 27, 2017, 06:53:50 pm »
+2

After further examination, the thing in the bottle has arms. It sits there grumpily, having its arms crossed. I first thought it was its chin, but it's not. So yeah, definitely an amphibian.
Aha. I see it now. I actually like it, but it is a bit strange.
It looks like some kind of Dino-Murloc-Frog thing to me. Probably one of my favourite art pieces in all of Dominion.
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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #216 on: October 27, 2017, 08:16:59 pm »
+4

I drew Locusts and hit my opponent's Royal Blacksmith. There was no replacement. The debt was not even paid off yet. That is way swingier than Swindler.

I don't see this as a flaw with the Hexes. Your opponent knows Locusts is 1 of 12 possible attacks. They should not have bought Royal Blacksmith.

I stopped reading there.

Kirian

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #217 on: October 27, 2017, 10:23:38 pm »
0

In all the cases mentioned, I have some way to respond. I can buy a Harem. I can take advantage of the Arena. I can increase by draw to compensate for the extra curses or ruins in my hand. I have nothing with in my control to directly compensate for Misery.

In a game I just played, I had a one Province lead. I had more than enough money to buy the last Province. My opponent played a Vampire which gave me Envious. He bought a Duchy on that turn and I couldn't buy any points on mine. My opponent was able to buy the last Province on his next turn.  That win did not come through smart play on my opponent's part or an error on mine. It was just dumb luck. I'd been leading throughout the game the my opponent was not far behind. I new I had more money and more draw than my opponent. Based on that, I bought that second to the last Province rather than a Duchy as I would when I'm not sure if I could buy the last one on my next turn.

Maybe with more play they'll grow on my but right now I feel like Hexes just introduce too much luck into the game.

I mean, that is unlucky and I feel for you, but it sounds like you were tied before you bought that second to last (your fourth) Province, so it could have just as easily meant that you drew 3 or 4 Provinces on that last turn and been in the exact same situation where your opponent bought a Duchy and then a Province to win. Which would also be super unlucky but not out of the scope of the game as it stands.

The thing is, almost any other Hex wouldn't have caused the loss.  Poverty possibly--they said more than enough to buy Province, so maybe they were holding GGS and other crap.  Plague if both players really were tied and they broke PPR, but context suggests they had a 7- or 8-point lead after buying the PP. Even Locusts hitting a Province would have been fine.

Maybe that's the thing that is everyone's sticking point.  It's highly random and swingy.  Note that no other attack in the game can cause what happened here; the closest thing is Legionary, which (assuming they held GGSXX) might force a Duchy buy.  Only Envy can possibly give -$10 or higher to your opponent's next turn.
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Donald X.

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #218 on: October 27, 2017, 10:33:55 pm »
+5

Maybe that's the thing that is everyone's sticking point.  It's highly random and swingy.  Note that no other attack in the game can cause what happened here; the closest thing is Legionary, which (assuming they held GGSXX) might force a Duchy buy.  Only Envy can possibly give -$10 or higher to your opponent's next turn.
Militia for example can do that. You were going to draw your deck and do whatever amount of stuff, but with only 3 cards in hand, drew to 3 stops.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #219 on: October 28, 2017, 12:48:21 am »
+4

I'm not sure I really get the idea that boons and hexes are more swingy than a lot of other existing cards. Perhaps the randomness is a little more in-your-face obvious. But there's plenty of cards that have something of a "random" effect when you play them:

Playing Smithy as your first/last action: gives anywhere from + to +. Like Harvest but way swingier.

Swindler is obvious, and people have complained about the swingyness before.

Black Market - maybe buy a great card, maybe get no good options.

Golem - Play 2 cards, but you don't know which 2.

Tournament - Maybe a Ruined Village, maybe a Peddler.

Gold - While not swingy when you play it, just as random in terms of when you draw it. Maybe it gets you a Province, maybe you already had more than without it.

Militia - Maybe your opponent discards 2 Estates and does care, maybe you just turned an amazing turn into a do-nothing turn. More obvious with Minion.

So yeah, I can see that the "take 1 of 12 random effects" feels more random. Maybe because there's more options, but I think people would complains just as much if it were 2 boons in the pile instead of 12. But aside from the fact that there has always been a huge amount of luck in Dominion, the answer to all of these cards has always been the same... play them often and expect the averages to work out to the way they should. In other words, play enough Werewolves consistently enough, and your opponent will usually be hurt the amount you expect him to be.
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Cave-o-sapien

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #220 on: October 28, 2017, 01:26:25 am »
0

In other words, play enough Werewolves consistently enough, and your opponent will usually be hurt the amount you expect him to be.

And how much is that?
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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #221 on: October 28, 2017, 02:22:58 am »
+1

In all the cases mentioned, I have some way to respond. I can buy a Harem. I can take advantage of the Arena. I can increase by draw to compensate for the extra curses or ruins in my hand. I have nothing with in my control to directly compensate for Misery.

In a game I just played, I had a one Province lead. I had more than enough money to buy the last Province. My opponent played a Vampire which gave me Envious. He bought a Duchy on that turn and I couldn't buy any points on mine. My opponent was able to buy the last Province on his next turn.  That win did not come through smart play on my opponent's part or an error on mine. It was just dumb luck. I'd been leading throughout the game the my opponent was not far behind. I new I had more money and more draw than my opponent. Based on that, I bought that second to the last Province rather than a Duchy as I would when I'm not sure if I could buy the last one on my next turn.

Maybe with more play they'll grow on my but right now I feel like Hexes just introduce too much luck into the game.


This is also not much different than when you build that awesome sturdy engine only to lose to a much worse deck due to a very unlikely dud in a crucial moment. And I can assure you I have both won and lost a great number of games that way. 


In all I have been tending to compare hexes to Swindler, it can range from game winning to just do nothing. And while Swindler is certainly not a card that receives a lot of love around here, we have certainly managed to learned not to mind it much, I think... So I guess hexes should be fine as well  :)
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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #222 on: October 28, 2017, 03:08:37 am »
+4

In other words, play enough Werewolves consistently enough, and your opponent will usually be hurt the amount you expect him to be.

And how much is that?

More than you think  ;)
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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #223 on: October 28, 2017, 12:32:40 pm »
+4

I'm not sure I really get the idea that boons and hexes are more swingy than a lot of other existing cards. Perhaps the randomness is a little more in-your-face obvious. But there's plenty of cards that have something of a "random" effect when you play them:
The difference, as I see it, is that normal cards have random effects based on the contents of your deck, which you have intentionally crafted over the course of the game, but you have no control over what appears in the Boon deck. Sometimes you're just going to get a Silver whether you like it or not.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #224 on: October 28, 2017, 12:35:44 pm »
0

I'm not sure I really get the idea that boons and hexes are more swingy than a lot of other existing cards. Perhaps the randomness is a little more in-your-face obvious. But there's plenty of cards that have something of a "random" effect when you play them:
The difference, as I see it, is that normal cards have random effects based on the contents of your deck, which you have intentionally crafted over the course of the game, but you have no control over what appears in the Boon deck. Sometimes you're just going to get a Silver whether you like it or not.

That's a fair point.
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