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Author Topic: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village  (Read 29493 times)

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Cave-o-sapien

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #150 on: October 26, 2017, 08:22:19 pm »
+2

Yeah, Donald asked for surreal art for the Hexes. Some ended up more surreal than others.
We've had the Puerto Rico and Carcassonne homages in Dominion already; maybe it was Dixit's turn?

That's perfect. It is totally a Dixit card.
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Asper

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #151 on: October 26, 2017, 08:32:44 pm »
0

It also sucked because it was so swingy, hitting one persons Provence and another persons copper.

...how were you guys playing Saboteur?

They weren't...? :P

Eran of Arcadia

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #152 on: October 26, 2017, 08:54:09 pm »
0

Yeah, Donald asked for surreal art for the Hexes. Some ended up more surreal than others.
We've had the Puerto Rico and Carcassonne homages in Dominion already; maybe it was Dixit's turn?

That's perfect. It is totally a Dixit card.

Glad I'm not the only one who thought that.
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Chappy7

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #153 on: October 26, 2017, 09:10:21 pm »
+3

The artwork on Haunting is incredible.  Super creepy.
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SuperHans

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #154 on: October 26, 2017, 10:43:13 pm »
0

Played a game with Leprechaun, Werewolf, and Pooka with no other trashers. My first hex trashed his cursed gold after he already used it on his opening. That was rough.

Pooka is fantastic. Without any other trashers, the cursed gold becomes so tempting to use each time it comes into the hand and so frustrating that I couldn't trash it with Pooka. Cool relationship between the cards.

Leprechaun seemed difficult to activate. I ended up avoiding him altogether because by the time I was finally able to lay seven down consistently the game was over. This seems like it will be fairly situational. Hard to say at this point whether hexing yourself is worth the gold. Looking forward to the analytics on that one.

Werewolf was great. I love this card. It led to some tough choices between attacking my opponent and drawing more cards. Paired with village, the smithy effect seemed like the better option than attacking my opponent.
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Kirian

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #155 on: October 26, 2017, 11:00:54 pm »
+1

Skulk, because it comes with a Gold, is just killer--you often will want to buy it just for the $4 Gold, Hexes are a bonus.

It isn't a $4 Gold. It also gives you a terminal stop card that doesn't give you any money.

People open Sea Hag and it (1) doesn't even offer a +Buy and (2) stops working after 10 total plays.  If you weren't planning on many other stop cards, Skulk is significantly better.
The way I look at Skulk, sans interactions which make a big difference, is: one of the hexes is Poverty, discard down to 3 cards in hand. If Skulk always did that, then a hand with Skulk plus Gold is like a hand with Militia plus Copper, with +1 Buy. If Militia gave +1 Buy and came with a Copper, would it look too strong at $4?


While I take your point, I think looking at Skulk sans interactions misses a lot in terms of deciding power.  Skulk, alone, once per shuffle, obviously isn't that great.  Getting it once per turn is OK.  But when you're able to play multiple Skulks in one turn, the attacks often stack.  KC-Militia attacks you once; KC-Sea Hag hits you with three Curses... unless the Curses run out.  KC-Skulk attacks you three times, in varying ways that can stack.

Haunting, Greed, and Envy: You now have a Copper and a topdeck for your next turn, and I hope you topdecked that Gold before you knew it would become a Copper.

Bad Omens, Poverty, and Delusion: Your deck has two Coppers on top, you have three cards in hand, and you can't buy Action cards.

But hey, I could be wrong!  We all thought Jack would be terrible and it's a top $4.  Maybe in games that aren't Nocturne-heavy, Skulk will suck.
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werothegreat

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #156 on: October 26, 2017, 11:17:04 pm »
+4

The artwork on Haunting is incredible.  Super creepy.

A pity we didn't get something similar for Ghost, instead of glow-y Cher.
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Chappy7

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #157 on: October 26, 2017, 11:36:51 pm »
0

The artwork on Haunting is incredible.  Super creepy.

A pity we didn't get something similar for Ghost, instead of glow-y Cher.

Yeah, I guess she is more of the friendly ghost type.  Not one you call the ghostbusters for.

On that note, I actually think lots of the boons and hexes look really nice.  Well done artists
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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #158 on: October 27, 2017, 02:25:02 am »
+1

Maybe in games that aren't Nocturne-heavy, Skulk will suck.
That's interesting since my first hypothesis would be that it's more relevant in games where there are few other Nocturne cards. But who knows.

--
Someone asked me in a game today "What's your opinion on boons and hexes?" and I said, "Just that keeping track of the decks is annoying work"

They responded "Exactly. I think it's the worst thing to happen to Dominion ever. Roll a die, see what you get!"

That has a fair amount of truth to it. Eventually we'll be better at keeping track of them and knowing what's left, but do we want to be? Is it fun?

It's fun in a novel, "Yay, new expansion!" way. It's even fun in a "Okay we've played a lot of regular Dominion today, let's spice things up with some random boons and hexes!" sort of way.

But is it something we want to play all the time? Repeated games of? Pseudo-competitively? I think not. What we've seen of Nocturne so far will probably make it one of the least-liked expansions, out of all of them. It's not bad, it's okay -- it's just not rising to any level of greatness. I'd rather play with Alchemy than Nocturne, mmk?

Of course that's faint criticism, we're talking about the 11th expansion to an already amazingly replayable game. But for a bottom line: Would I buy Nocturne? From what I see here so far..no. I'd rather use that same money to buy the base game and gift it to a random acquaintance, than have Nocturne be a thing.
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Accatitippi

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #159 on: October 27, 2017, 02:52:20 am »
+1

Yesterday I played a goons-werewolf game.
At some point I got up to speed and could attack with two ww every turn.
My first three double-ww turns:
Goons-poverty-haunting (duh)
Goons-bad omens-famine (chancellor is back, in attack form)
Goons-envy-delusion (opponent has no silver nor gold)

Remind me how hexes are supposed to hurt my opponent?
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Asper

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #160 on: October 27, 2017, 02:57:27 am »
+1

I'd rather play with Alchemy than Nocturne, mmk?

Dude, I'm with you on the skepticism on the random nature of Boons and Hexes, but Alchemy? Even if you decided to only ever play without Boons and Hexes (although I think Druid can't count because it's not random in-game), you'll have more cards left than Alchemy has in total. Are you telling me that Pooka, Faithful Hound, Sheperd and Cemetary are bad cards? Worse than Transmute or more annoying than Possession?

Cave-o-sapien

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #161 on: October 27, 2017, 02:59:51 am »
0

Maybe in games that aren't Nocturne-heavy, Skulk will suck.
That's interesting since my first hypothesis would be that it's more relevant in games where there are few other Nocturne cards. But who knows.

--
Someone asked me in a game today "What's your opinion on boons and hexes?" and I said, "Just that keeping track of the decks is annoying work"

They responded "Exactly. I think it's the worst thing to happen to Dominion ever. Roll a die, see what you get!"

That was me. Obviously it's way too early to draw any conclusions (and this bit of hyperbole was likely induced by Hex fatigue), but  my initial impression isn't very favorable after several games.

I'm also worried about having to track them to stay competitive.
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Asper

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #162 on: October 27, 2017, 03:03:08 am »
0

I'm also worried about having to track them to stay competitive.

I really hope having to track them will never be important enough to force me to actually do it... I guess I might just shuffle the pile every time it's used in my real-life group, or at least after every turn or something.

SevenSpirits

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #163 on: October 27, 2017, 03:10:51 am »
+2

I suspect playing online, where the representation of boons and hexes is so transient and hard to follow, is making them seem worse than they would when you can see the pile in front of you.

Perhaps interface improvements online can also help to make tracking them less annoying.
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Donald X.

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #164 on: October 27, 2017, 03:38:20 am »
+2

The way I look at Skulk, sans interactions which make a big difference, is: one of the hexes is Poverty, discard down to 3 cards in hand. If Skulk always did that, then a hand with Skulk plus Gold is like a hand with Militia plus Copper, with +1 Buy. If Militia gave +1 Buy and came with a Copper, would it look too strong at $4?


While I take your point, I think looking at Skulk sans interactions misses a lot in terms of deciding power.
Possibly I could have phrased that better. I meant: "The way I look at Skulk, sans interactions (which make a big difference), is..."

I was talking about Remodels and so on though, not stacking Hexes. Stacking hexes is an issue, but the full set of hexes addresses it a bunch of ways. When you hex someone multiple times in a turn, you tend to undo some of the damage, and whiff more.
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Co0kieL0rd

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #165 on: October 27, 2017, 04:55:00 am »
0

I played several games with Werewolf yesterday and boy, can it be brutal. In an engine you mostly draw with it but of there's other draw, you might be able to play multiple Werewolf in your Night phase every turn. In a kingdom with no villages or trashing, the Werewolf split becomes as crucial as with Minion or Cultist. This is due to the facts that you can get away with gaining all the Werewolves you can get and, I think, it's the only attack in the game that both can easily be stacked and stays potent for the entire game. This can lead to slogs start similar to Cultist-BM games but due to Envy and all those handsize and topdeck attacks either stagnate or, whoever has more Werewolves just wins. But it's going to be a long and painful game for both players until the end.
With that said, if you stack Doom attacks every turn, it becomes unimportant which Hexes you get hit with. You just deal with the fact that your deck is bad and your turns are bad.
I still like Werewolf. I liked Cultist too when I first got Dark Ages. But most Cultist games are boring because Cultist-BM crushes most other decks. This should happen less with Werewolf since the draw can't be chained and it's got no payload option, like Minion. But when Werewolf is the powerhouse on the board, the game might be awful from start to finish. I just hope it's not going to be that case often.
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Asper

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #166 on: October 27, 2017, 07:20:18 am »
0

I played several games with Werewolf yesterday and boy, can it be brutal. In an engine you mostly draw with it but of there's other draw, you might be able to play multiple Werewolf in your Night phase every turn. In a kingdom with no villages or trashing, the Werewolf split becomes as crucial as with Minion or Cultist. This is due to the facts that you can get away with gaining all the Werewolves you can get and, I think, it's the only attack in the game that both can easily be stacked and stays potent for the entire game. This can lead to slogs start similar to Cultist-BM games but due to Envy and all those handsize and topdeck attacks either stagnate or, whoever has more Werewolves just wins. But it's going to be a long and painful game for both players until the end.
With that said, if you stack Doom attacks every turn, it becomes unimportant which Hexes you get hit with. You just deal with the fact that your deck is bad and your turns are bad.
I still like Werewolf. I liked Cultist too when I first got Dark Ages. But most Cultist games are boring because Cultist-BM crushes most other decks. This should happen less with Werewolf since the draw can't be chained and it's got no payload option, like Minion. But when Werewolf is the powerhouse on the board, the game might be awful from start to finish. I just hope it's not going to be that case often.

Well, it has a very strong self-synergy. I haven't played with Werewolf itself, but with a related card, and a card that's either a Smithy or something you can play without actions is bound to boost itself. I wonder how Werewolf/BM fares. Maybe this Werewolf actually likes Silvers.

Asper

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #167 on: October 27, 2017, 07:23:15 am »
+1

I suspect playing online, where the representation of boons and hexes is so transient and hard to follow, is making them seem worse than they would when you can see the pile in front of you.

Perhaps interface improvements online can also help to make tracking them less annoying.

That was my feeling exactly. My first game with Boons had both Druid and Fool. I had no idea what was going on, and not being able to quickly see the Druid Boons certainly didn't help. It's probably going to be far easier in real life.

Donald X.

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #168 on: October 27, 2017, 07:48:10 am »
+13

They responded "Exactly. I think it's the worst thing to happen to Dominion ever. Roll a die, see what you get!"
Well I'm hoping I haven't killed Dominion. It's out of my hands now; the cards are printed.

From the beginning I worried that there would be people who didn't like the Boons. I imagined people being all, "when is my strategy to do one of twelve random things? Never, that's right." What kept the Boons going was that actual people always liked them. The playtesters liked them; the strangers who came through to play at my table liked them. I only have so much data, but it was relentlessly positive. When it was time to post the previews for Boons/Hexes, I worried that the people in the forums would hate them. But if I set up a release event in a game store, everyone who tries the set will like them. I'm not worried at all there. I've had the experience.

One thing about this expansion was, I wanted to make sure the game still had stuff to offer to the masses of Dominion players, the regular players, that don't go online to find out how bad Silver is or whatever. The bulk of the people who play Dominion. Empires was heavily skewed towards expert players. So Nocturne is trying to have more things for casual players. If somehow that works out perfectly, and the casual players find out (somehow) and buy up the set, and at the same time the experts pass on it, well I make out there. At the same time, I've played tons of Dominion, and know a thing or two, and I had lots of fun playing Nocturne, and ditto for my playtesters. It did not seem lacking in joy for serious players. And playtesting lasted many moons; we did not just tire of it.

But I mean, I can't decide how people feel. I don't know how representative my samples are. Good luck, Donald X.!
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werothegreat

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #169 on: October 27, 2017, 07:59:59 am »
+2

Maybe in games that aren't Nocturne-heavy, Skulk will suck.
That's interesting since my first hypothesis would be that it's more relevant in games where there are few other Nocturne cards. But who knows.

--
Someone asked me in a game today "What's your opinion on boons and hexes?" and I said, "Just that keeping track of the decks is annoying work"

They responded "Exactly. I think it's the worst thing to happen to Dominion ever. Roll a die, see what you get!"

That has a fair amount of truth to it. Eventually we'll be better at keeping track of them and knowing what's left, but do we want to be? Is it fun?

It's fun in a novel, "Yay, new expansion!" way. It's even fun in a "Okay we've played a lot of regular Dominion today, let's spice things up with some random boons and hexes!" sort of way.

But is it something we want to play all the time? Repeated games of? Pseudo-competitively? I think not. What we've seen of Nocturne so far will probably make it one of the least-liked expansions, out of all of them. It's not bad, it's okay -- it's just not rising to any level of greatness. I'd rather play with Alchemy than Nocturne, mmk?

Of course that's faint criticism, we're talking about the 11th expansion to an already amazingly replayable game. But for a bottom line: Would I buy Nocturne? From what I see here so far..no. I'd rather use that same money to buy the base game and gift it to a random acquaintance, than have Nocturne be a thing.

Dude, I'm buying this set for Ghost and Leprechaun alone.
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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #170 on: October 27, 2017, 08:11:45 am »
+3

But is it something we want to play all the time? Repeated games of? Pseudo-competitively? I think not. What we've seen of Nocturne so far will probably make it one of the least-liked expansions, out of all of them. It's not bad, it's okay -- it's just not rising to any level of greatness. I'd rather play with Alchemy than Nocturne, mmk?

I don't get this criticism at all. Hexes are at worst a Cursing or Saboteur-like effect, which are/were regular features of Dominion. Why does the fact that Hex is often less bad than the worst case suddenly make it an unattractive concept?

Personally I'm very excited about Nocturne; it looks more interesting to me than Adventures (but not Empires). I too would rather play with Alchemy in the end, but that's because currently my favorite expansions are, in this order: Dark Ages, Alchemy, Empires, Nocturne.
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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #171 on: October 27, 2017, 08:37:01 am »
+3

For what it is worth: Nocturne is my favorite expansion so far. I like how it adds many small decisions in the lower cost spectrum, creating plenty of space for creativity. Heirlooms are just splendid. Night Cards shake up the game in a very simple and elegant manner which one would not expect to be possible in the ELVENTH expansion. Both theme and art are spot on.

Boon effects are trivial enough to not seriously thwart anyone's strategy. In addition, Druid and Pixie offer phantastic solutions to minimize randomness further.

Hexes really are a mixed bag, I could have lived without them. Creating a stackeable blend of the least desired effects of Dominion is not necessarily a recipe for popularity. But Attacks in general rarely get much love. The way the mechanic is set up really does its best to mitigate the effects, as Donald pointed out already. And from a gameplay perspective it makes the game definitely more interesting. It changes the focus from strategy to tactics: You need to make the best of your deck as is, rather than following the plan that you laid out, when you looked at the kingdom. I can see how it feels annoying for players who love the strategic part of Dominion, but skill in any game involves strategy AND tactics. A good deal of Dominion's fun is the joy of overcoming its inherent randomness to the point where there is no randomness left anymore. Hexes make it harder to reach that point, but, as with shuffling, it is a question of probability and how you mitigate risks of failure.

And as always: You can ban the cards you do not like. I have good hopes that ShuffleIT eventually will offer this feature for ranked games to.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2017, 08:43:16 am by BBL »
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Asper

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #172 on: October 27, 2017, 09:25:23 am »
0

While I fully embrace the thought to offer something for the "mass" of players (they deserve fun games, too), I worry that the most casual bits are also so much at once that it might scare casual players away. For instance, Fool feels like the most casual card in the set to me, due to its "uncontrollable" nature, but it also has all those components: A State that gets passed around and does something every turn, the Boon stack, a non-supply card, and a Heirloom (which is probably the most simple part). The other Fate and Doom cards don't go as far, but they still come with a stack of cards and additional components.

On the other hand, people also kind of love components. More stuff = more value. And then Nocturne has a kick-ass popular theme. I bet there'll be lots of casual players buying the game just because it has vampires and stuff. So it's probably going to be alright.

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #173 on: October 27, 2017, 09:29:58 am »
0

But is it something we want to play all the time? Repeated games of? Pseudo-competitively? I think not. What we've seen of Nocturne so far will probably make it one of the least-liked expansions, out of all of them. It's not bad, it's okay -- it's just not rising to any level of greatness. I'd rather play with Alchemy than Nocturne, mmk?
I don't get this criticism at all. Hexes are at worst a Cursing or Saboteur-like effect, which are/were regular features of Dominion. Why does the fact that Hex is often less bad than the worst case suddenly make it an unattractive concept?
It's not a matter of which one is worse, it's a matter of which can be predited. Cursing is predictable, hexing isn't. I know what happens if I choose to play my Witch as my last action vs. something else. I don't know what's going to happen when making a decision to hex or not to hex with my Skulk or Werewolf. Maybe my hex will trash your only Warrior and win the game, or maybe it will let your Menagerie proc and actually help you get off a great turn. Who the hell knows?

You can try to track the Boon and Hex decks if you want to play optimally. I'd rather just not play with Nocturne at all, there are plenty of more enjoyable expansions. Pretty much all the others, as far as I'm concerned.
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ObtusePunubiris

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #174 on: October 27, 2017, 09:33:19 am »
+3

If I may be so bold as to speak for the casuals...Don't worry, we're gonna be fine.

And I'm not buying it just because it has vampires either.

I'm getting it for the werewolves. Ah-ooooo-oo-oo-ooooooo!
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