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Author Topic: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village  (Read 29418 times)

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Eran of Arcadia

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #125 on: October 26, 2017, 04:13:09 pm »
+6

My play group will humor me and play with mine sometimes

But that's in the base set . . .
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Ankenaut

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #126 on: October 26, 2017, 04:18:39 pm »
+2

Yup! Also Embargo Tokens. I just don't like the components. The actual mechanics are really fun. We don't even use the playmats irl. I don't want to have to dig through my boxes/storage solution for a piece of cardboard every time one specific card comes out on the table. I mean, Donald X made the right call from a design perspective on the playmats for user friendliness reasons- no doubt about it. They just aren't for me. And I wish the Adventures tokens had a more card-centric way of doing things. But that's just because I'm a card junky. Every non-card thing included gets in the way of my irrational need to own many, many different pretty cards.

The reason I'm ok with the 3 main metal tokens is because they have an additive quality to them that makes them more convenient than cards. For instance, if you're gonna design a mechanic around VP's that don't clog your deck, you have three options as far as I can tell: have players write down the running tally on a piece of paper (Let's call this the Milton Bradley method- which is the worst possible method), have a ton of extra cards that say "+1VP" on them that people set aside when gained, or have them be tokens. With cards, I have to pick up the stack and flip through to count how many I have. With tokens I can just glance down at them. So those make sense. Adventures Tokens though, don't save me time, just physical table space. Taking an Adventures token probably takes just as long as taking a State. So yeah, States are cool. End of rant  :P
I am sympathetic to this viewpoint. I like Adventures a lot, but do think it's a bummer that you have to get out a thing of chits to play with it. I do not mind the coins and VP, though I wouldn't have made Seaside without having more uses for the tokens in it (the prototype had not had tokens - Embargo itself went on the pile, treasures went on the mat for Pirate Ship).

I made it a point to not use tokens in Nocturne, since the last two sets had them. It's a thing though that they open up design space for simple cards; if you want to make more simple cards, you really want them.

I have two sets of 6 token storage bins: one set for all the metal tokens (1VP,2VP,5VP,Debt,Coin,Embargo), one set for the Adventures cardboard tokens (divided by color). The nice thing about the metal tokens is that they are generally useful among multiple sets, and multiple cards -- Embargo being the exception. The Adventures tokens are only useful with Adventures, and even then usually only a couple of tokens per player. Empires is the last expansion, and it introduced Debt; I can see future expansions having more debt cards. It's harder to see a reuse of the Adventures tokens. Unfortunately, the token bins are the hardest thing to integrate into my Dominion storage solution.

I'm sure the nice metal tokens are expensive, and that is a factor in play when deciding to make an expansion with them. I wouldn't mind seeing an expansion with more cards which use the metal tokens. I'm just not sure if the Adventures tokens are worth it.

I like the Adventures tokens, but it sounds like we need to someone to design some token-replacements out of those transparent playing cards. You could just drop them on the pile and still see the card underneath, but they'd only take up the space of a card and you could store them in a nice neat little stack.
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Jacob marley

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #127 on: October 26, 2017, 04:31:22 pm »
0

With the caveat that I have only played a very few games with Hexes, I have to say that they are the first mechanic introduced in Nocturne that I'm not liking at first glance.  The few games I have played seem extra swingy and sloggy (in an unfun manner).  In one, with Werewolf and Skulk, we each got 2 Skulks, and my opponent was able to hit 5/8 at will but I couldn't get above 4 to save my life, so while I was getting totally destroyed by hexes, he was skating to an easy blowout.  This out of nearly identical openings.

I know that more time is needed, but for now, I'm just not thrilled about the hexes.
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blaisepascal

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #128 on: October 26, 2017, 04:34:08 pm »
+1


I like the Adventures tokens, but it sounds like we need to someone to design some token-replacements out of those transparent playing cards. You could just drop them on the pile and still see the card underneath, but they'd only take up the space of a card and you could store them in a nice neat little stack.

Oooh, I like that idea. You'd have to arrange it so that none of the appropriate icons overlapped when stacked. Perhaps a row of icons per color, and one icon type per column... Let me think on it some.
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Asper

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #129 on: October 26, 2017, 04:38:35 pm »
+8

This is not about Werewolf. It's about the fact that fan cards have become incredibly good here on fds (not all, obviously). People exchange ideas with each other, inspire each other, learn the pitfalls others already fell into. I know for a fact that my cards, including my personal favs like Road, Werewolf, Necromancer and Sunken City, would suck a lot more if I didn't have the whole fan card sub forum to give me feedback and inspire me. By refusing to even so much as look at fan card threads, Donald X strips himself of the synergy effect we fan card designers enjoy.
It does not seem possible that you spend as much time on your cards as I spend on mine, and lots of people comment on my cards. Whatever their flaws, they are not lacking in input of time or feedback.

Years ago, I made a Netrunner expansion. A large one, a standalone. I tried to fix the problems I felt Netrunner had - mainly too many vanilla cards, but also how tracing and viruses worked. And I made new mechanics. I polished it up, made some decks, had some fun. Then one day FFG decided to revive Netrunner. And they had made a game of mine, Infiltration, and were trying to get me to make Star Wars Dominion. And, this is relevant though you know it, I'm the guy who made Dominion. I'm that guy. I have like proven experience designing cards, and also I was someone they wanted to get on the good side of.

I told them, hey I made a bunch of Netrunner cards. They were not interested in seeing them. They were making their own cards.

Welcome to the club! I do not want to see your fan cards. I'm making my own cards.

I assumed you would say this and to be honest, I mostly brought it up because I would have regretted not doing so. The rest is your decision and I admit I understand your sentiment. It's your game and your cards, just like other people (including me) have their things that they want to do themselves. Thanks for sharing the Netrunner story. It puts things into perspective. That concludes this topic for me. Thanks for answering the way you did.

Witherweaver

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #130 on: October 26, 2017, 04:39:25 pm »
+1


I like the Adventures tokens, but it sounds like we need to someone to design some token-replacements out of those transparent playing cards. You could just drop them on the pile and still see the card underneath, but they'd only take up the space of a card and you could store them in a nice neat little stack.

Oooh, I like that idea. You'd have to arrange it so that none of the appropriate icons overlapped when stacked. Perhaps a row of icons per color, and one icon type per column... Let me think on it some.

I think it would be better to just have a colored card with text/icon that can go under the pile.  It can be the same width (or maybe slightly wider) but only has to be about half the height.  Maybe you might find it annoying to keep moving under piles, but I don't think it would be too bad.  Multiple 'tokens' can just stagger so all can be seen.
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Asper

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #131 on: October 26, 2017, 05:21:32 pm »
+3

After further examination, the thing in the bottle has arms. It sits there grumpily, having its arms crossed. I first thought it was its chin, but it's not. So yeah, definitely an amphibian.

SuperHans

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #132 on: October 26, 2017, 05:24:39 pm »
+2

After further examination, the thing in the bottle has arms. It sits there grumpily, having its arms crossed. I first thought it was its chin, but it's not. So yeah, definitely an amphibian.
Aha. I see it now. I actually like it, but it is a bit strange.
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4est

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #133 on: October 26, 2017, 05:30:30 pm »
+1

A lot of people in this thread have noted the random/swingy nature of the Hexes, and that they seem "more bad" than the Boons are good.  I agree that the randomness can make them a bit annoying to defend against or plan around, however, I do have to commend Donald X. on designing the Doom cards (that we've seen so far) carefully so that excessive Hexing is usually tricky to pull off:

With two of the Doom cards, players themselves control when or if they get Hexed (Cursed Village and Leprechaun).  Skulk Hexes other players but itís a terminal stop card that gains another stop card, so playing several in succession is very difficult.  It is possible for Werewolf to hand out Hexes quite rapidly, but itís dual nature frequently tempts players to use it as a Smithy instead, especially if it's the only draw on the board.  Unlike something like Cultist which can very quickly ruin other playersí decks, I donít think weíve seen any overly oppressive Doom cards.

While there certainly is potential of unfortunately swingy moments with Hexes, I donít think any of them will be overbearing.  Iíve been impressed with how intuitive the Nocturne mechanics introduced so far are, and I think Hexes will actually be kind of fun and interesting most of the timeómore fun than Ruins anyway. 

P.S. I just played a game where my opponent bought a Cursed Village after drawing their deck, only to have Locusts immediately trash it.  Obviously, that doesnít happen every time, but hey that sure did give us a laugh.   
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Tozar

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #134 on: October 26, 2017, 05:33:15 pm »
+1

I Princed a Skulk today.  It was pretty sweet to hit with that Hex every turn.
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SCSN

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #135 on: October 26, 2017, 05:33:45 pm »
+17

I am not sure that hexes are the most luck-based attacks.

There once was a card in Intrigue
Whose presence ignited a krieg
Where a card bought to play
Would be swindled away
And replaced by a useless misbreed.
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Jeebus

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #136 on: October 26, 2017, 06:01:07 pm »
+1

First game with Hexing (Skulk).

I drew Locusts and hit my opponent's Royal Blacksmith. There was no replacement. The debt was not even paid off yet. That is way swingier than Swindler.

Fortunately it's only one of the 12 Hexes. Wait a minute... that makes Hexing more swingy, not less.  :(

LastFootnote

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #137 on: October 26, 2017, 06:04:05 pm »
+1

First game with Hexing (Skulk).

I drew Locusts and hit my opponent's Royal Blacksmith. There was no replacement. The debt was not even paid off yet. That is way swingier than Swindler.

Fortunately it's only one of the 12 Hexes. Wait a minute... that makes Hexing more swingy, not less.  :(

If only there had been a Ruins they could have gained!
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ThetaSigma12

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #138 on: October 26, 2017, 06:12:00 pm »
+2

Locusts is definitely the biggest offender for swingness. It's realllly bad. I appreciate Donald trying to make "trash the top card of your deck" work, but this is kinda a proof that it really doesn't.
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Jacob marley

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #139 on: October 26, 2017, 06:13:45 pm »
0

Just played an BV/Werewolf deck.  My opponent ragequit.  I continued against the Rat, got 8 werewolves and was routinely hitting him with 5 hexes per turn.  (I also played pathfinder on BV, so was overdrawing even with less than half my werewolves as action.)
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Jacob marley

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #140 on: October 26, 2017, 06:15:48 pm »
0

Locusts is definitely the biggest offender for swingness. It's realllly bad. I appreciate Donald trying to make "trash the top card of your deck" work, but this is kinda a proof that it really doesn't.

Yeah, I don't get locust.  After Donald admits that Sab was bad and gets rid of it, he goes and brings it back in a form that you don't even have to buy in order to use.
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Cave-o-sapien

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #141 on: October 26, 2017, 06:20:41 pm »
+6

Locusts is definitely the biggest offender for swingness. It's realllly bad. I appreciate Donald trying to make "trash the top card of your deck" work, but this is kinda a proof that it really doesn't.

Yeah, I don't get locust.  After Donald admits that Sab was bad and gets rid of it, he goes and brings it back in a form that you don't even have to buy in order to use.

I thought the main problem with Saboteur was that it sucked the most for the person who bought it.
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Jacob marley

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #142 on: October 26, 2017, 06:40:00 pm »
0

It also sucked because it was so swingy, hitting one persons Provence and another persons copper.
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ThetaSigma12

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #143 on: October 26, 2017, 06:51:32 pm »
+7

It also sucked because it was so swingy, hitting one persons Provence and another persons copper.

...how were you guys playing Saboteur?
« Last Edit: October 26, 2017, 07:21:19 pm by ThetaSigma12 »
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hypercube

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #144 on: October 26, 2017, 06:56:18 pm »
0

I played a few games with Cursed Village and Skulk today where I was able to consistently play 3-4 Skulks per turn. I might rather have had 4 Monuments but unlike all the other $4 attacks it continues to hurt with repeated plays and doesn't stop when the curses run out.

Overall I don't know if I'm going to come around to the swinginess of the Hexes, especially since it seems that you could get a major benefit by tracking the deck for Leprechaun and Cursed Village. I have a hard enough time tracking my own deck, y'know?
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Jack Rudd

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #145 on: October 26, 2017, 07:17:18 pm »
+1

Locusts is definitely the biggest offender for swingness. It's realllly bad. I appreciate Donald trying to make "trash the top card of your deck" work, but this is kinda a proof that it really doesn't.

Yeah, I don't get locust.  After Donald admits that Sab was bad and gets rid of it, he goes and brings it back in a form that you don't even have to buy in order to use.

I thought the main problem with Saboteur was that it sucked the most for the person who bought it.
Saboteur was terribroken. When it was good, it was very very good, and when it was bad, it was horrid.
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Donald X.

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #146 on: October 26, 2017, 07:38:12 pm »
+2

Saboteur had multiple problems, only one of which was some people not liking Knight-family attacks. Some people do and still I go light on them.
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Asper

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #147 on: October 26, 2017, 07:47:40 pm »
+4

Locusts is definitely the biggest offender for swingness. It's realllly bad. I appreciate Donald trying to make "trash the top card of your deck" work, but this is kinda a proof that it really doesn't.

Yeah, I don't get locust.  After Donald admits that Sab was bad and gets rid of it, he goes and brings it back in a form that you don't even have to buy in order to use.

I thought the main problem with Saboteur was that it sucked the most for the person who bought it.
Saboteur was terribroken. When it was good, it was very very good, and when it was bad, it was horrid.

It always was good at sabotaging SOMEONE's deck, though.

Hockey Mask

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #148 on: October 26, 2017, 07:50:57 pm »
+1

Let's bow our heads in memory of Saboteur.
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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #149 on: October 26, 2017, 08:21:14 pm »
+9

Yeah, Donald asked for surreal art for the Hexes. Some ended up more surreal than others.
We've had the Puerto Rico and Carcassonne homages in Dominion already; maybe it was Dixit's turn?
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