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Author Topic: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village  (Read 30133 times)

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NZacharias

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #100 on: October 26, 2017, 01:20:08 pm »
+2

I like the idea behind all the cards. But hex's seem extremly controlling and can force really slog decks if there are more than one hex cards. However the only reason that there is more than one hex card is because the game is trying to put as many nocturne cards in there as possible. Only time will tell how controlling and random these will be in actual games. Most of them are weak attacks anyways. Also boons are only reliable with druid, otherwise you're playing off of luck, which is despised in a higher level environment.
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SuperHans

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #101 on: October 26, 2017, 01:29:13 pm »
+1

I like the idea behind all the cards. But hex's seem extremly controlling and can force really slog decks if there are more than one hex cards. However the only reason that there is more than one hex card is because the game is trying to put as many nocturne cards in there as possible. Only time will tell how controlling and random these will be in actual games. Most of them are weak attacks anyways. Also boons are only reliable with druid, otherwise you're playing off of luck, which is despised in a higher level environment.
As someone who doesn't have dominion online, I am interested to hear from those that do what their experience has been so far with the hexes. How swingy are they? Are they still fun to play with despite the added luck involved?
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Awaclus

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #102 on: October 26, 2017, 01:43:06 pm »
+2

I like the idea behind all the cards. But hex's seem extremly controlling and can force really slog decks if there are more than one hex cards. However the only reason that there is more than one hex card is because the game is trying to put as many nocturne cards in there as possible. Only time will tell how controlling and random these will be in actual games. Most of them are weak attacks anyways. Also boons are only reliable with druid, otherwise you're playing off of luck, which is despised in a higher level environment.
As someone who doesn't have dominion online, I am interested to hear from those that do what their experience has been so far with the hexes. How swingy are they? Are they still fun to play with despite the added luck involved?

You don't need to "have" Dominion Online, just go on the website and play.
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Jeebus

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #103 on: October 26, 2017, 01:52:31 pm »
0

I'm realizing that the -$1 and -1 Card tokens from Adventurers are States under a different name. It's certainly more practical to have their effects printed on the items in front of you, rather than on the cards that dispense them.

This makes me think about Possession. Given that there's no new Possession errata, the Possessor doesn't receive Boons or Hexes or take States that the Possessed would.

Jeebus

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #104 on: October 26, 2017, 01:56:48 pm »
0

Yeah, the Hexes seem maybe even more swingy than the Boons. War and Locusts, while being swingy themselves, could be brutal. But Envious and Deluded can often effectively strip you of a turn, which is devastating. The other 8 are not that bad.

markusin

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #105 on: October 26, 2017, 01:57:40 pm »
+1

Can we stop and appreciate the mind-blowingness of a card that looks like something you actually would want, but also comes with a Gold?

It's kinda like Marauder, except you get the Gold sooner and you can spend the Gold without having to keep playing Skulk. And it gives +Buy.

Or it's an admission that Gold is overcosted at $6.
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SuperHans

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #106 on: October 26, 2017, 02:01:18 pm »
0

I like the idea behind all the cards. But hex's seem extremly controlling and can force really slog decks if there are more than one hex cards. However the only reason that there is more than one hex card is because the game is trying to put as many nocturne cards in there as possible. Only time will tell how controlling and random these will be in actual games. Most of them are weak attacks anyways. Also boons are only reliable with druid, otherwise you're playing off of luck, which is despised in a higher level environment.
As someone who doesn't have dominion online, I am interested to hear from those that do what their experience has been so far with the hexes. How swingy are they? Are they still fun to play with despite the added luck involved?

You don't need to "have" Dominion Online, just go on the website and play.
TIL.
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markusin

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #107 on: October 26, 2017, 02:02:51 pm »
+1

You know, there is all this talk of Boons being weakish and/or random, but I am quite fond of Idol. I guess because Idol can give out curses, making the game lean towards a slog anyway, and Idol itself is a treasure that cannot be drawn dead.

Cursed Village is situationally very strong as an effect, but Lost City is like always strong.
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The_Tricksta

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #108 on: October 26, 2017, 02:30:29 pm »
+3

Envy truly has a masterpiece as its artwork, as we seem to have gathered here, pondering about what we're seeing here.

I'm more wondering how the fish got in the bottle.

Did someone bother to bottle the fish up and release it into the ocean? Did a sadistic fish mother decide to put one of her eggs into a bottle and then this guy grew up in there somehow?

Are these anthropomorphic fish sentient? Do they have a civilization that could rival our own? Are we going to see more of this little guy's story?

There are so many things this picture makes me reflect upon. But in the end this fish is going to realize that they're going to be forever stuck within the confines of their prison unable to live the life of their brethren.
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King Leon

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #109 on: October 26, 2017, 02:37:14 pm »
0

So, Locusts can be very brutal, but at least they trash Curses, Hovels and Poor Houses. Trashing Overgrown Estate or Fortress is very funny, so is remodeling a Necropolis to a Peddler. Sometimes even downgrading Province to a Duchy may be useful, if that gives you one dead card less in you next hand.
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tim17

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #110 on: October 26, 2017, 02:39:40 pm »
+5

I think the envy art would make more sense if the envious fish was watching the other fish play dominion nocturne.
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markusin

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #111 on: October 26, 2017, 02:46:20 pm »
+1

I think the envy art would make more sense if the envious fish was watching the other fish play playtest dominion nocturne.

FTFY
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Donald X.

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #112 on: October 26, 2017, 03:35:20 pm »
+15

This is not about Werewolf. It's about the fact that fan cards have become incredibly good here on fds (not all, obviously). People exchange ideas with each other, inspire each other, learn the pitfalls others already fell into. I know for a fact that my cards, including my personal favs like Road, Werewolf, Necromancer and Sunken City, would suck a lot more if I didn't have the whole fan card sub forum to give me feedback and inspire me. By refusing to even so much as look at fan card threads, Donald X strips himself of the synergy effect we fan card designers enjoy.
It does not seem possible that you spend as much time on your cards as I spend on mine, and lots of people comment on my cards. Whatever their flaws, they are not lacking in input of time or feedback.

Years ago, I made a Netrunner expansion. A large one, a standalone. I tried to fix the problems I felt Netrunner had - mainly too many vanilla cards, but also how tracing and viruses worked. And I made new mechanics. I polished it up, made some decks, had some fun. Then one day FFG decided to revive Netrunner. And they had made a game of mine, Infiltration, and were trying to get me to make Star Wars Dominion. And, this is relevant though you know it, I'm the guy who made Dominion. I'm that guy. I have like proven experience designing cards, and also I was someone they wanted to get on the good side of.

I told them, hey I made a bunch of Netrunner cards. They were not interested in seeing them. They were making their own cards.

Welcome to the club! I do not want to see your fan cards. I'm making my own cards.
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Donald X.

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #113 on: October 26, 2017, 03:38:17 pm »
+8

What is going on in the Envy art?
Asking the important questions. Seriously, I don't understand what I'm seeing.
I think that's fish in a bottle, envious of the other fish?

The artists were told they could make the Hexes surreal, though only a few did. And I remembered how great the art on Ill-Gotten Gains was, and we asked Jason Slavin, who hadn't worked for us in some years, to do some pieces. And I mean they're great; Envy is a little confusing but it's a cool image. Bad Omens is him too.
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Donald X.

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #114 on: October 26, 2017, 03:42:33 pm »
+2

Yup! Also Embargo Tokens. I just don't like the components. The actual mechanics are really fun. We don't even use the playmats irl. I don't want to have to dig through my boxes/storage solution for a piece of cardboard every time one specific card comes out on the table. I mean, Donald X made the right call from a design perspective on the playmats for user friendliness reasons- no doubt about it. They just aren't for me. And I wish the Adventures tokens had a more card-centric way of doing things. But that's just because I'm a card junky. Every non-card thing included gets in the way of my irrational need to own many, many different pretty cards.

The reason I'm ok with the 3 main metal tokens is because they have an additive quality to them that makes them more convenient than cards. For instance, if you're gonna design a mechanic around VP's that don't clog your deck, you have three options as far as I can tell: have players write down the running tally on a piece of paper (Let's call this the Milton Bradley method- which is the worst possible method), have a ton of extra cards that say "+1VP" on them that people set aside when gained, or have them be tokens. With cards, I have to pick up the stack and flip through to count how many I have. With tokens I can just glance down at them. So those make sense. Adventures Tokens though, don't save me time, just physical table space. Taking an Adventures token probably takes just as long as taking a State. So yeah, States are cool. End of rant  :P
I am sympathetic to this viewpoint. I like Adventures a lot, but do think it's a bummer that you have to get out a thing of chits to play with it. I do not mind the coins and VP, though I wouldn't have made Seaside without having more uses for the tokens in it (the prototype had not had tokens - Embargo itself went on the pile, treasures went on the mat for Pirate Ship).

I made it a point to not use tokens in Nocturne, since the last two sets had them. It's a thing though that they open up design space for simple cards; if you want to make more simple cards, you really want them.
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Awaclus

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #115 on: October 26, 2017, 03:47:44 pm »
+2

The artists were told they could make the Hexes surreal, though only a few did. And I remembered how great the art on Ill-Gotten Gains was, and we asked Jason Slavin, who hadn't worked for us in some years, to do some pieces. And I mean they're great; Envy is a little confusing but it's a cool image. Bad Omens is him too.

I found his portfolio on Google and he has some super kickass art there.
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Donald X.

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #116 on: October 26, 2017, 03:49:10 pm »
+2

Maybe you would be willing to sign a very broad agreement, but that doesn't mean it would be so easy to get everyone else to go for it. But all of this is kinda moot anyway, because it's not like he doesn't at least hear about concepts through the grapevine. I'm sure "An Action-Attack that gives out Debt" has either made it back to him via playtesters, or came into his head during development. The more likely assumption isn't that he isn't aware of the concept, it's that he tried it and didn't like it enough to include it over something else or is saving it for later.
I try not to hear about things through the grapevine!

It was obvious that you could try to give out debt with an attack. You want it to be like Swamp Hag, because otherwise, you could lock players out, and if you tone it down enough that you aren't doing that, it looks like Bridge Troll giving out the -$1 token, which we already have; the big difference is it's cumulative with Bridge Troll, which isn't great. And well I did do Tax. It's kind of a dud though I enjoy the set-up, the set-up is what kept it alive.
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JThorne

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #117 on: October 26, 2017, 03:50:19 pm »
+5

Quote
...and were trying to get me to make Star Wars Dominion.

Special kudos for not doing that.

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pacatak

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #118 on: October 26, 2017, 03:52:28 pm »
+1

Actually, i would have loved star wars dominion
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Witherweaver

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #119 on: October 26, 2017, 03:54:27 pm »
+5

Actually, i would have loved star wars dominion

Good news!
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Donald X.

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #120 on: October 26, 2017, 03:54:59 pm »
+9

I thought that what DXV has said about fan cards is, creating cards isn't the hard part, creating cards is the fun part.  Testing cards is the hard part.
I don't want to stress "hard" too much, but yes, making cards is especially fun, and not what most of the job is; you make them, and then you play them, which is good times even sometimes when they're broken, and then you tweak them repeatedly and argue over wordings and so on, a process that varies with the cards but time-wise utterly dwarfs the making-stuff-up part. The bad parts of the work are far removed from the good parts; things like proofreading everything repeatedly and still missing that the moon isn't on the States and Greed has the wrong artist credit (it's actually Claus Stephan), or telling fans that you don't want to see their cards.
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Donald X.

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #121 on: October 26, 2017, 03:57:24 pm »
+7

Skulk, because it comes with a Gold, is just killer--you often will want to buy it just for the $4 Gold, Hexes are a bonus.

It isn't a $4 Gold. It also gives you a terminal stop card that doesn't give you any money.

People open Sea Hag and it (1) doesn't even offer a +Buy and (2) stops working after 10 total plays.  If you weren't planning on many other stop cards, Skulk is significantly better.
The way I look at Skulk, sans interactions which make a big difference, is: one of the hexes is Poverty, discard down to 3 cards in hand. If Skulk always did that, then a hand with Skulk plus Gold is like a hand with Militia plus Copper, with +1 Buy. If Militia gave +1 Buy and came with a Copper, would it look too strong at $4?
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Donald X.

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #122 on: October 26, 2017, 04:04:17 pm »
+7

I wonder if there was a deliberate decision to introduce more luck, or if hexes just seemed like an idea worth doing regardless of what they did to the luck factor.  Or maybe it turns out that hexes don't introduce all that much luck, and it only appears that way because the luck is more obvious than it is for other mechanics.
I wasn't trying to introduce more luck, but I was trying to introduce more fun. The set is trying extra to appeal to players who are in it for good times.

I have been worried about boons/hexes every step of the way; would people actually like "now do one of 12 random things." The big thing always was, that everyone always liked them.

I am not sure that hexes are the most luck-based attacks. The most popular attack is I think Jester; sometimes it Curses them, sometimes it misses, sometimes it gains you a Lab.
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Ankenaut

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #123 on: October 26, 2017, 04:09:50 pm »
0

In moments like this, I really wish Donald would look at fan card threads once in a while.

Do not imagine that Donald X. didn't think of having a Silver interaction in Werewolf.

This is not about Werewolf. It's about the fact that fan cards have become incredibly good here on fds (not all, obviously). People exchange ideas with each other, inspire each other, learn the pitfalls others already fell into. I know for a fact that my cards, including my personal favs like Road, Werewolf, Necromancer and Sunken City, would suck a lot more if I didn't have the whole fan card sub forum to give me feedback and inspire me. By refusing to even so much as look at fan card threads, Donald X strips himself of the synergy effect we fan card designers enjoy.

Most of the fun with fan cards comes in thinking them up and talking about them. My play group will humor me and play with mine sometimes, but they have zero interest in other people's fan cards. If Donald ever stopped working on Dominion, I'd be all for someone else taking over and continuing to roll out content if we were pretty sure it was of similar pace and quality. If Dominion were to churn out cards at MtG pace or we were just getting a bunch of variants of existing mechanics, I'd probably stop buying them.
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blaisepascal

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #124 on: October 26, 2017, 04:12:49 pm »
0

Yup! Also Embargo Tokens. I just don't like the components. The actual mechanics are really fun. We don't even use the playmats irl. I don't want to have to dig through my boxes/storage solution for a piece of cardboard every time one specific card comes out on the table. I mean, Donald X made the right call from a design perspective on the playmats for user friendliness reasons- no doubt about it. They just aren't for me. And I wish the Adventures tokens had a more card-centric way of doing things. But that's just because I'm a card junky. Every non-card thing included gets in the way of my irrational need to own many, many different pretty cards.

The reason I'm ok with the 3 main metal tokens is because they have an additive quality to them that makes them more convenient than cards. For instance, if you're gonna design a mechanic around VP's that don't clog your deck, you have three options as far as I can tell: have players write down the running tally on a piece of paper (Let's call this the Milton Bradley method- which is the worst possible method), have a ton of extra cards that say "+1VP" on them that people set aside when gained, or have them be tokens. With cards, I have to pick up the stack and flip through to count how many I have. With tokens I can just glance down at them. So those make sense. Adventures Tokens though, don't save me time, just physical table space. Taking an Adventures token probably takes just as long as taking a State. So yeah, States are cool. End of rant  :P
I am sympathetic to this viewpoint. I like Adventures a lot, but do think it's a bummer that you have to get out a thing of chits to play with it. I do not mind the coins and VP, though I wouldn't have made Seaside without having more uses for the tokens in it (the prototype had not had tokens - Embargo itself went on the pile, treasures went on the mat for Pirate Ship).

I made it a point to not use tokens in Nocturne, since the last two sets had them. It's a thing though that they open up design space for simple cards; if you want to make more simple cards, you really want them.

I have two sets of 6 token storage bins: one set for all the metal tokens (1VP,2VP,5VP,Debt,Coin,Embargo), one set for the Adventures cardboard tokens (divided by color). The nice thing about the metal tokens is that they are generally useful among multiple sets, and multiple cards -- Embargo being the exception. The Adventures tokens are only useful with Adventures, and even then usually only a couple of tokens per player. Empires is the last expansion, and it introduced Debt; I can see future expansions having more debt cards. It's harder to see a reuse of the Adventures tokens. Unfortunately, the token bins are the hardest thing to integrate into my Dominion storage solution.

I'm sure the nice metal tokens are expensive, and that is a factor in play when deciding to make an expansion with them. I wouldn't mind seeing an expansion with more cards which use the metal tokens. I'm just not sure if the Adventures tokens are worth it.

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