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Author Topic: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village  (Read 29488 times)

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Asper

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #75 on: October 26, 2017, 11:12:08 am »
+7

Hey Asper and other people literally posting fan cards in here, many people on these forums enjoy Preview threads when new expansions come out, so maybe try not to make them suck for the person who brings them to us.

You're right, it has no place here and was uncalled for to post it. I'll edit it out. Either way, I said what I felt I had to say. The offer stands.

werothegreat

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #76 on: October 26, 2017, 11:19:36 am »
+3

Hey Asper and other people literally posting fan cards in here, many people on these forums enjoy Preview threads when new expansions come out, so maybe try not to make them suck for the person who brings them to us.

You're right, it has no place here and was uncalled for to post it. I'll edit it out. Either way, I said what I felt I had to say. The offer stands.

Re:offer: maybe Donald wants to make up his own cards rather than outsourcing that? He's Artisan-al like that.
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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #77 on: October 26, 2017, 11:22:05 am »
0

What is going on in the Envy art?

The only thing I can think of is that he is "green with envy".
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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #78 on: October 26, 2017, 11:26:12 am »
0

Okay, a challenge: Look through the fan card threads here and tell me there's not a single fan card that you feel you'd rather have had in the game than one specific official card. I doubt you'll be able to do that.

And it's not like I wasn't willing to freely give away any and all of my cards and many people here feel the same. Somehow, games like Smallworld have produced fan generated content en masse without any problem, so this legal reservation seems not at all convincing to me, especially if the ideas in question are offered for free.

I'll admit, having your Edicts officially implemented in the game would be really cool. But, in general, if you only get 1 expansion every year-ish (which as far as I know is by no means a guaranteed thing), do you really want it to be composed of stuff you could've already owned if you visited a local print shop?

Smallworld has different publishers who may be willing to take different levels of legal risk. Perhaps Dominion's various publishers aren't. Maybe if Donald X tried really hard then he could convince them, but is that really worth the extra work when he could just focus on making his own cards and not have to consult legal counsel? Also, we aren't qualified to speak to how many problems the Smallworld publishers/designers ran into along the way. If I were organizing a fan expansion for my game, you can bet there'd be an NDA in place, including a clause that says they cannot talk about the NDA.

Maybe you would be willing to sign a very broad agreement, but that doesn't mean it would be so easy to get everyone else to go for it. But all of this is kinda moot anyway, because it's not like he doesn't at least hear about concepts through the grapevine. I'm sure "An Action-Attack that gives out Debt" has either made it back to him via playtesters, or came into his head during development. The more likely assumption isn't that he isn't aware of the concept, it's that he tried it and didn't like it enough to include it over something else or is saving it for later.
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trivialknot

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #79 on: October 26, 2017, 11:28:01 am »
+1

So looking at the hexes, we have:

4 muckers (Greed, Famine, Bad Omens, Haunting)
3 hand size attacks (Fear, Poverty, Haunting)
3 junkers (Greed, Plague, Locusts)
2 trashers (War, Locusts)
2 payload reducers (Envy, Delusion)
3 VP reducers (Misery, Plague, Locusts)

It occurs to me that the older categorization scheme for attacks needs an update.
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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #80 on: October 26, 2017, 11:28:28 am »
+4

What's so confusing about the Envy art? It's a fish-like creature inside a bottle being envious of the fish-like creatures that aren't inside a bottle. Exactly what the creature is is not the point, you don't have to focus on that.
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Asper

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #81 on: October 26, 2017, 11:32:38 am »
0

Okay, a challenge: Look through the fan card threads here and tell me there's not a single fan card that you feel you'd rather have had in the game than one specific official card. I doubt you'll be able to do that.

And it's not like I wasn't willing to freely give away any and all of my cards and many people here feel the same. Somehow, games like Smallworld have produced fan generated content en masse without any problem, so this legal reservation seems not at all convincing to me, especially if the ideas in question are offered for free.

I'll admit, having your Edicts officially implemented in the game would be really cool. But, in general, if you only get 1 expansion every year-ish (which as far as I know is by no means a guaranteed thing), do you really want it to be composed of stuff you could've already owned if you visited a local print shop?

Smallworld has different publishers who may be willing to take different levels of legal risk. Perhaps Dominion's various publishers aren't. Maybe if Donald X tried really hard then he could convince them, but is that really worth the extra work when he could just focus on making his own cards and not have to consult legal counsel? Also, we aren't qualified to speak to how many problems the Smallworld publishers/designers ran into along the way. If I were organizing a fan expansion for my game, you can bet there'd be an NDA in place, including a clause that says they cannot talk about the NDA.

Maybe you would be willing to sign a very broad agreement, but that doesn't mean it would be so easy to get everyone else to go for it. But all of this is kinda moot anyway, because it's not like he doesn't at least hear about concepts through the grapevine. I'm sure "An Action-Attack that gives out Debt" has either made it back to him via playtesters, or came into his head during development. The more likely assumption isn't that he isn't aware of the concept, it's that he tried it and didn't like it enough to include it over something else or is saving it for later.

I'm okay with all you say here except that I don't know what the debt attack references. But yes, I see why you can't just compare publishers, especially as RGG is basically a single person.

Hey Asper and other people literally posting fan cards in here, many people on these forums enjoy Preview threads when new expansions come out, so maybe try not to make them suck for the person who brings them to us.

You're right, it has no place here and was uncalled for to post it. I'll edit it out. Either way, I said what I felt I had to say. The offer stands.

Re:offer: maybe Donald wants to make up his own cards rather than outsourcing that? He's Artisan-al like that.

I know he does and I'm not saying he should outsource it. I just say that drawing from a big pool of experience provides you with more than drawing from a small pool. I won't say any more about this. If anybody wants to discuss this topic, maybe somewhere else.

Asper

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #82 on: October 26, 2017, 11:34:04 am »
+1

What's so confusing about the Envy art? It's a fish-like creature inside a bottle being envious of the fish-like creatures that aren't inside a bottle. Exactly what the creature is is not the point, you don't have to focus on that.

Maybe it's a Kappa. I'd love to have Kappas in Dominion.
Edit: On second thought, while the one in the foreground kind of looks the part, the others don't. No idea.

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #83 on: October 26, 2017, 11:34:23 am »
+4

What's so confusing about the Envy art? It's a fish-like creature inside a bottle being envious of the fish-like creatures that aren't inside a bottle. Exactly what the creature is is not the point, you don't have to focus on that.
Actually that helped me quite a bit. I couldn't tell it was a bottle. I thought it was maybe a helmet blowing by in the wind.

Envy art < Harem art
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luser

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #84 on: October 26, 2017, 11:35:21 am »
+1

got my opponent i am sorry worthy moment.
we both open salvager/silver.
opponent on turn 3 buys cursed village, gets war which trashes his salvager before he could play it once.
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trivialknot

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #85 on: October 26, 2017, 11:39:04 am »
+4

I thought that what DXV has said about fan cards is, creating cards isn't the hard part, creating cards is the fun part.  Testing cards is the hard part.

What's so confusing about the Envy art? It's a fish-like creature inside a bottle being envious of the fish-like creatures that aren't inside a bottle. Exactly what the creature is is not the point, you don't have to focus on that.
After staring at it for a while I see it.  But there are a couple things that are weird.  First, the biggest fish on the left doesn't really look like a fish, it looks like someone's arm is reaching out from the ocean and they painted a little fish face on it.  Also, I don't understand how the fish can possibly get trapped in the bottle, or why the bottle is tied with string.  I wonder if it's supposed to be a plastic bag, which seems anachronistic.  I don't dislike the art, it's just confusing at first glance.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #86 on: October 26, 2017, 11:42:25 am »
+2

I'd been wondering if there would be an Action-Night card. Queue hundreds of questions about if it uses an action if you play it during your action phase, or if it counts as an action in play if you play it during your Night phase (nothing we know of cares about that), etc., despite the fact that the rules framework of the game makes it so that all these things should be clear to anyone playing Nocturne.
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Awaclus

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #87 on: October 26, 2017, 11:45:44 am »
+4

First, the biggest fish on the left doesn't really look like a fish, it looks like someone's arm is reaching out from the ocean and they painted a little fish face on it.  Also, I don't understand how the fish can possibly get trapped in the bottle, or why the bottle is tied with string.

The fish can possibly get trapped in the bottle because the art is supposed to convey an emotion, not document an event.
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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #88 on: October 26, 2017, 11:50:56 am »
+2

First, the biggest fish on the left doesn't really look like a fish, it looks like someone's arm is reaching out from the ocean and they painted a little fish face on it.  Also, I don't understand how the fish can possibly get trapped in the bottle, or why the bottle is tied with string.

The fish can possibly get trapped in the bottle because the art is supposed to convey an emotion, not document an event.

Yeah, Donald asked for surreal art for the Hexes. Some ended up more surreal than others. I love the Bad Omens art, though.

And thanks for describing the Envy art, Awaclus. I have to admit I didn't see the bottle myself. I mean I saw the top, but assumed it was some weird thing floating in the air, having not seen the glass.

I think it would be conveyed even better if the fish-man were working a tedious office job while inside the bottle.  8)
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allanfieldhouse

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #89 on: October 26, 2017, 11:51:09 am »
0

Man, Cursed Village looks awesome. It seems like we've been getting a lot of "half an engine in a box" cards recently. Lost City, City Quarter, and Cursed Village are all cards that can single-handedly give you all your draw and actions. Interestingly, they all have on-buy penalties (if you consider CQ's high debt cost a penalty).
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FemurLemur

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #90 on: October 26, 2017, 12:00:23 pm »
0

Okay, a challenge: Look through the fan card threads here and tell me there's not a single fan card that you feel you'd rather have had in the game than one specific official card. I doubt you'll be able to do that.

And it's not like I wasn't willing to freely give away any and all of my cards and many people here feel the same. Somehow, games like Smallworld have produced fan generated content en masse without any problem, so this legal reservation seems not at all convincing to me, especially if the ideas in question are offered for free.

I'll admit, having your Edicts officially implemented in the game would be really cool. But, in general, if you only get 1 expansion every year-ish (which as far as I know is by no means a guaranteed thing), do you really want it to be composed of stuff you could've already owned if you visited a local print shop?

Smallworld has different publishers who may be willing to take different levels of legal risk. Perhaps Dominion's various publishers aren't. Maybe if Donald X tried really hard then he could convince them, but is that really worth the extra work when he could just focus on making his own cards and not have to consult legal counsel? Also, we aren't qualified to speak to how many problems the Smallworld publishers/designers ran into along the way. If I were organizing a fan expansion for my game, you can bet there'd be an NDA in place, including a clause that says they cannot talk about the NDA.

Maybe you would be willing to sign a very broad agreement, but that doesn't mean it would be so easy to get everyone else to go for it. But all of this is kinda moot anyway, because it's not like he doesn't at least hear about concepts through the grapevine. I'm sure "An Action-Attack that gives out Debt" has either made it back to him via playtesters, or came into his head during development. The more likely assumption isn't that he isn't aware of the concept, it's that he tried it and didn't like it enough to include it over something else or is saving it for later.

I'm okay with all you say here except that I don't know what the debt attack references. But yes, I see why you can't just compare publishers, especially as RGG is basically a single person.

Sorry, the debt attack isn't referencing anything you've said here, it's just an example of a concept that I've seen made into a fan card but not an official one. Basically what I'm saying there is: for almost any fan card concept, I'm sure Donald X has thought of it or has had it proposed to him. So he doesn't really need to look at fan cards for ideas.

But yeah, I'll drop it now so as not to derail things too far  :)
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Kirian

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #91 on: October 26, 2017, 12:00:38 pm »
+1

Skulk, because it comes with a Gold, is just killer--you often will want to buy it just for the $4 Gold, Hexes are a bonus.

It isn't a $4 Gold. It also gives you a terminal stop card that doesn't give you any money.

People open Sea Hag and it (1) doesn't even offer a +Buy and (2) stops working after 10 total plays.  If you weren't planning on many other stop cards, Skulk is significantly better.
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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #92 on: October 26, 2017, 12:04:00 pm »
+6

I think it would be conveyed even better if the fish-man were working a tedious office job while inside the bottle.  8)

Tedious office jobs aren't always horrible. Sometimes while trapped in your bottle you can check out Dominion Expansion Previews and post to the forums.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #93 on: October 26, 2017, 12:09:22 pm »
+3

Can we stop and appreciate the mind-blowingness of a card that looks like something you actually would want, but also comes with a Gold?
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trivialknot

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #94 on: October 26, 2017, 12:09:37 pm »
+3

As I was with boons, I'm initially skeptical of hexes as a concept.  They introduce a big luck factor, and a fairly obvious one.  There are a lot of non-obvious luck factors in dominion, particularly shuffle skips (which newbies are mostly unaware of) and turn spikiness, but whenever you draw a hex, the luck is staring you in the face.

I thought DXV put stock into the Richard Garfield philosophy of luck vs skill.  Richard Garfield seems to think it is best that a game starts out with a greater luck factor, and that the luck factor should decrease over time as the fanbase becomes more serious and competitive.

I wonder if there was a deliberate decision to introduce more luck, or if hexes just seemed like an idea worth doing regardless of what they did to the luck factor.  Or maybe it turns out that hexes don't introduce all that much luck, and it only appears that way because the luck is more obvious than it is for other mechanics.
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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #95 on: October 26, 2017, 12:12:43 pm »
+2

People open Sea Hag and it (1) doesn't even offer a +Buy and (2) stops working after 10 total plays.  If you weren't planning on many other stop cards, Skulk is significantly better.

I think it's fair to note that Sea Hag's attack is probably about twice as harsh as getting a Hex. It's like, uh, Plague and Haunting rolled into one. And it's an attack you want to do super early, and it's reliable at doing it.

But yes, possibly Skulk is the stronger card overall. (I have no idea.)
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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #96 on: October 26, 2017, 12:17:22 pm »
+7

I think it's fair to note that Sea Hag's attack is probably about twice as harsh as getting a Hex.
...
But yes, possibly Skulk is the stronger card overall. (I have no idea.)

Oh man, tell that to 2012-2014 dominion players and watch them freak out. A $4 attack that might be stronger than Sea Hag?!?

Edit: In before Awaclus quotes me -- I'm not talking about a group of two thousand dominion players...
« Last Edit: October 26, 2017, 12:19:17 pm by allanfieldhouse »
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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #97 on: October 26, 2017, 01:07:03 pm »
0

What's so confusing about the Envy art? It's a fish-like creature inside a bottle being envious of the fish-like creatures that aren't inside a bottle. Exactly what the creature is is not the point, you don't have to focus on that.

NO WAY.  The other fish envy the bottle.

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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #98 on: October 26, 2017, 01:10:08 pm »
+4

What's so confusing about the Envy art? It's a fish-like creature inside a bottle being envious of the fish-like creatures that aren't inside a bottle. Exactly what the creature is is not the point, you don't have to focus on that.

NO WAY.  The other fish envy the bottle.

Plot twist: they both envy the other.
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Re: Previews #4: Werewolf, Skulk, Cursed Village
« Reply #99 on: October 26, 2017, 01:13:34 pm »
+1

People open Sea Hag and it (1) doesn't even offer a +Buy and (2) stops working after 10 total plays.  If you weren't planning on many other stop cards, Skulk is significantly better.

I think it's fair to note that Sea Hag's attack is probably about twice as harsh as getting a Hex. It's like, uh, Plague and Haunting rolled into one. And it's an attack you want to do super early, and it's reliable at doing it.

But yes, possibly Skulk is the stronger card overall. (I have no idea.)
For me, Marauder is the comparison that came to mind..It's 1 cycle faster, and it likes TfB more (since you get to keep or TfB the gold), and of course the buy is always nice to have around.

I don't quite know how to compare the effect of being ruined to being hexed. Depends on how much trashing there is, of course -- with no trashing, junk really hurts. With average trashing maybe they're about the same overall, but hexes are really random so I'm no good at estimating their effects yet.
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