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Author Topic: Reminder tokens?  (Read 979 times)

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ackmondual

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Reminder tokens?
« on: October 24, 2017, 12:12:59 am »
0

Played a 4p game, and completely forgot to cue my opponents if they wanted to trash any Fools Gold in hand when I bought Province.  :-[  And then a 2nd time.  :-[  They never bought one themselves (game with Colony).  There was Wall, so that would've been net 0, but with Tomb, it's +1 VP.  The Gold probably would've been more useful given deck dilution (we had 25 to 37 cards in our deck by game's end).  Regardless, it wasn't something we could rewind since they don't remember if they had any FG in their hand at time of purchases.  At least we remembered to trigger Inn's "Upon gain" ability, and Chancellor's "flip deck" one.


I'm thinking a token on top of the Province pile would've did the trick.  Ideally, a mini dry-erase board so that we could write "Fool's Gold", or abbreviate it "FG" if it can't fit that much text.  Separate tokens for each instance of reminder would be sweet, but too costly.  Otherwise, a generic token would at least be a visual reminder that we were supposed to do SOMETHING seems to be in order

Your experiences?
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LastFootnote

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Re: Reminder tokens?
« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2017, 12:40:01 am »
+4

In my opinion, players should say aloud the cards they are playing and buying/gaining. Basically, narrate their turn. If you announce "I'm buying a Province", its up to them to realize they have Fool's Gold in hand, etc.

But even in the absence of narration, man, it's their responsibility to notice when you're getting a Province. Fool's Gold's reaction is optional; if they're not paying attention, their loss. They should not get to rewind, etc.
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ackmondual

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Re: Reminder tokens?
« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2017, 10:03:58 am »
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In my opinion, players should say aloud the cards they are playing and buying/gaining. Basically, narrate their turn. If you announce "I'm buying a Province", its up to them to realize they have Fool's Gold in hand, etc.

But even in the absence of narration, man, it's their responsibility to notice when you're getting a Province. Fool's Gold's reaction is optional; if they're not paying attention, their loss. They should not get to rewind, etc.
I rewind if possible as a courtesy.  Sometimes, we do miss mandatory triggers and such, so all the more reason to do so.  While it is up to them, you could argue that all the memory issues that the game design strives to eliminate could also be "the player's loss". [shrug]
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J Reggie

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Re: Reminder tokens?
« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2017, 10:07:24 am »
+1

In my opinion, players should say aloud the cards they are playing and buying/gaining. Basically, narrate their turn. If you announce "I'm buying a Province", its up to them to realize they have Fool's Gold in hand, etc.

But even in the absence of narration, man, it's their responsibility to notice when you're getting a Province. Fool's Gold's reaction is optional; if they're not paying attention, their loss. They should not get to rewind, etc.

I remember the rulebook explicitly saying to announce what cards you're playing.

ackmondual

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Re: Reminder tokens?
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2017, 03:26:00 am »
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In my opinion, players should say aloud the cards they are playing and buying/gaining. Basically, narrate their turn. If you announce "I'm buying a Province", its up to them to realize they have Fool's Gold in hand, etc.

But even in the absence of narration, man, it's their responsibility to notice when you're getting a Province. Fool's Gold's reaction is optional; if they're not paying attention, their loss. They should not get to rewind, etc.

I remember the rulebook explicitly saying to announce what cards you're playing.
Not the issue.  I announced I'm buying a Province.  We forget because there can a lot of things going on in the game, and we're only human.  You may as well decry people who form "trees" when playing action cards because it helps them keep track of how many +Actions they have left, even though the rule book does mention you're suppose to say things like "Village, +2 actions" out loud.
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crj

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Re: Reminder tokens?
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2017, 10:41:07 am »
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In my opinion, players should say aloud the cards they are playing and buying/gaining.
My pet peeve is people not making it clear which thing they're doing. Especially with Lost City, for some reason, I've been in games where people ended up drawing both too many cards and too few on various occasions.
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MatthewCA

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Re: Reminder tokens?
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2017, 11:42:29 am »
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If you're playing with newer players, I would say something as a courtesy the first couple time I trigger an interactive ability. Like the Lost City, the first  couple I buy, if announce it and remind other players to draw a card, but I probably won't do that all game. Or if other people are telling me to draw extra cards when they buy Lost City, I'll say it all game. It kinda depends on the group you're playing with.
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dedicateddan

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Re: Reminder tokens?
« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2017, 05:31:02 pm »
+9

I remember the rulebook explicitly saying to announce what cards you're playing.
I play Village. 
I play Moat.
I play Village.
I play Workshop, gaining Moat.
I play Village. 
I play Moat.
I play Village.
I play Workshop, gaining Village.
I play Village. 
I play Moat.
I play Village.
I play Workshop, gaining Moat.
I play Village. 
I play Moat.
I play Village.
I play Workshop, gaining Workshop.
I play Village.
I play Workshop, gaining Silver.
I play 3 Copper.
I buy Village.
I ... need a glass of water.
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Cave-o-sapien

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Re: Reminder tokens?
« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2017, 06:00:14 pm »
+2

 
If you're playing with newer players, I would say something as a courtesy the first couple time I trigger an interactive ability. Like the Lost City, the first  couple I buy, if announce it and remind other players to draw a card, but I probably won't do that all game. Or if other people are telling me to draw extra cards when they buy Lost City, I'll say it all game. It kinda depends on the group you're playing with.

But there's no choice with Lost City. The other players must draw a card. There exist scenarios where this would be a bad thing for them.

This is different than say, Fool's Gold, which has an optional ability.
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MatthewCA

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Re: Reminder tokens?
« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2017, 09:21:07 am »
+1

If you're playing with newer players, I would say something as a courtesy the first couple time I trigger an interactive ability. Like the Lost City, the first  couple I buy, if announce it and remind other players to draw a card, but I probably won't do that all game. Or if other people are telling me to draw extra cards when they buy Lost City, I'll say it all game. It kinda depends on the group you're playing with.

But there's no choice with Lost City. The other players must draw a card. There exist scenarios where this would be a bad thing for them.

This is different than say, Fool's Gold, which has an optional ability.

Then it still depends on who you are playing with. If you're playing with people who know the cards, people who you play with IRL like weekly, then you gotta have some trust that they will do their best to follow the rules on the cards. Politely saying something to them isn't against the rules.

If you're teaching someone, I believe it's your responsibility to be a good teacher and help your opponents keep track of mandatory interactive abilities. Optional interactive abilities (like Fools Gold) should be brought up, but it's hard for new players to not become dependant on you reminding them that reaction abilities are a thing. (How many times have you asked a brand new player if they have a Moat after you played a Militia?) However, you don't want to rob them of the experience of discovering a synergy or combo on their own.

Its a fine line, and I really don't see the harm in putting some kind of reminder token on a table to help people keep track of the abilities in a specific game. Many other games provide a player board or card with helpful info so people don't have to remember everything, while trying to learn a new game too.
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Chris is me

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Re: Reminder tokens?
« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2017, 09:30:34 am »
+9

I remember the rulebook explicitly saying to announce what cards you're playing.
I play Village. 
I play Moat.
I play Village.
I play Workshop, gaining Moat.
I play Village. 
I play Moat.
I play Village.
I play Workshop, gaining Village.
I play Village. 
I play Moat.
I play Village.
I play Workshop, gaining Moat.
I play Village. 
I play Moat.
I play Village.
I play Workshop, gaining Workshop.
I play Village.
I play Workshop, gaining Silver.
I play 3 Copper.
I buy Village.
I ... need a glass of water.

Do... do you not do this? Does anyone not do this? I’ve always done this. I’ve also always provided water :)

Obviously you can skip the phrase “I Play”, as most people do, and as the game goes on you can get lazier about announcing zero consequence things.

I think if there is a MANDATORY side effect (Council Room / Lost City) you are absolutely obligated to make sure your opponents do it. You can’t say “well it’s on you” for the good stuff but be on their ass about attacks, that’s just inconsistent, and imo a form of cheating. You don’t *need* to check in on people about optional stuff but I think it’s nice to announce “oh you guys can get the Vault effect now” or whatever.
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AJD

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Re: Reminder tokens?
« Reply #11 on: November 02, 2017, 03:10:11 pm »
+5

Player 1, reading card aloud: “...trashes one of them costing from 3 to 6...
Player 2: Aw, so much for my Devil’s Workshop.
Player 1: ...and discards the rest. If a Knight is trashed by this, trash this.” Okay, now I have 1 action left, so I—
Player 2: Hold up, aren’t you going to trash Sir Destry?
Player 1: Wait, why?
« Last Edit: November 02, 2017, 03:14:22 pm by AJD »
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Kirian

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Re: Reminder tokens?
« Reply #12 on: November 03, 2017, 01:15:32 am »
+2

Player 1, reading card aloud: “...trashes one of them costing from 3 to 6...
Player 2: Aw, so much for my Devil’s Workshop.
Player 1: ...and discards the rest. If a Knight is trashed by this, trash this.” Okay, now I have 1 action left, so I—
Player 2: Hold up, aren’t you going to trash Sir Destry?
Player 1: Wait, why?

Of course the linguist would point this one out.
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Awaclus

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Re: Reminder tokens?
« Reply #13 on: November 03, 2017, 07:59:58 am »
+1

I remember the rulebook explicitly saying to announce what cards you're playing.
I play Village. 
I play Moat.
I play Village.
I play Workshop, gaining Moat.
I play Village. 
I play Moat.
I play Village.
I play Workshop, gaining Village.
I play Village. 
I play Moat.
I play Village.
I play Workshop, gaining Moat.
I play Village. 
I play Moat.
I play Village.
I play Workshop, gaining Workshop.
I play Village.
I play Workshop, gaining Silver.
I play 3 Copper.
I buy Village.
I ... need a glass of water.

Do... do you not do this? Does anyone not do this?

I do this:

Two actions
One action
Two actions
One action, I gain a Moat
Two actions
One action
Two actions
One action, I gain a Village
Two actions
One action
Two actions
One action, I gain a Moat
Two actions
One action
Two actions
One action, I gain a Workshop
Two actions
One action, I gain a Silver
I have three and buy a Village
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ackmondual

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Re: Reminder tokens?
« Reply #14 on: November 07, 2017, 03:48:31 am »
0

Sample turn for us...
[Play action card]
[Play action card]
Playing Silver - 2 coins
Playing Fool's Gold - 3 coins
Playing Fool's Gold - 7 coins
Playing Silver - 9 coins
Buying a Province

!! But whatdya know?  We all forgot about FG because we were so into the game!  (Dominion has that effect).  So ergo, that's why a reminder token would've been nice.
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ackmondual

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Re: Reminder tokens?
« Reply #15 on: November 07, 2017, 03:51:26 am »
+2

I remember the rulebook explicitly saying to announce what cards you're playing.
I play Village. 
I play Moat.
I play Village.
I play Workshop, gaining Moat.
I play Village. 
I play Moat.
I play Village.
I play Workshop, gaining Village.
I play Village. 
I play Moat.
I play Village.
I play Workshop, gaining Moat.
I play Village. 
I play Moat.
I play Village.
I play Workshop, gaining Workshop.
I play Village.
I play Workshop, gaining Silver.
I play 3 Copper.
I buy Village.
I ... need a glass of water.

Actually, the rules say you're supposed to be saying how many actions you have.  You don't do as follows?  ???

 I play Village.  +2 actions
I play Moat. 1+ actions
I play Village.  2+ actions
I play Workshop, gaining Moat. 1+ actions
I play Village.  2+ actions
I play Moat. 1+ actions
I play Village. 2+ actions
I play Workshop, gaining Village. 1+ actions
I play Village.   +2 actions
I play Moat. +1 actions
I play Village. +2 actions
I play Workshop, gaining Moat.  1+ actions
I play Village.  2+ actions
I play Moat.  +1 actions
I play Village.  +2 actions
I play Workshop, gaining Workshop. 1+ actions
I play Village.  +2 actions
I play Workshop, gaining Silver.  +1 actions
I play 3 Copper.
I buy Village.
I ... need a glass of water.
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jonaskoelker

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Re: Reminder tokens?
« Reply #16 on: November 14, 2017, 09:02:45 am »
+1

I put Mountain Pass on top of the Province pile, in order to not forget it.

Maybe putting a Gold* sideways on top of the Province pile would serve as a reminder? Or else a coin* token?

That way, when you manipulate the Province pile you will also have to manipulate some kind of reminder. Of course, it's everyone who doesn't manipulate the Province who should be reminded, so the reminder to you is that you should remind them. That's different from my Mountain Pass trick, so I'm not confident it'll work as well, but it'll probably be an improvement.

(* Other cards put debt, VP and Embargo tokens on piles—I don't think coin tokens on piles is a thing yet; that's why I suggest that specific token. Gold is unlikely to pile out, and it's related to the effect of the reaction.)
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faust

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Re: Reminder tokens?
« Reply #17 on: November 14, 2017, 09:06:40 am »
+4

I don't think coin tokens on piles is a thing yet
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jonaskoelker

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Re: Reminder tokens?
« Reply #18 on: November 14, 2017, 12:33:11 pm »
+1

I think if there is a MANDATORY side effect (Council Room / Lost City) you are absolutely obligated to make sure your opponents do it. You can’t say “well it’s on you” for the good stuff but be on their ass about attacks, that’s just inconsistent, and imo a form of cheating. You don’t *need* to check in on people about optional stuff but I think it’s nice to announce “oh you guys can get the Vault effect now” or whatever.

For optional effects, e.g. Fool's Gold, I don't think you're cheating if you abstain from pointing my options out to me (while making damn well sure I discard to your Militia). I do think you're playing hardball if you do that, and I play softball, so we should both find new opponents. (* "you" is the general you, not Chris-is-me.)

Last I checked, the tournament rules of M:tG obligates both (all) players to track the game state and ensure that only valid moves are made. I think that makes good sense. Under such a rule, a tournament official can sanction a player if they e.g. don't remind their opponent(s) to draw from Council Room. Deliberately pushing the game towards an invalid game state smells like cheating to me.

Not doing an optional thing is a valid move, though, so this doesn't obligate players to remind their opponents who leave $2 unspent that they can discard their Wine Merchant. Reminding your opponent is Good Guy Greg territory. Not doing so is maybe Scumbag Steve territory.

[...] MANDATORY [...]. You can’t say “well it’s on you” for the good stuff but be on their ass about attacks
(emphasis-by-bolding is mine.) Note the change in adjective. If what you're saying is "not reminding your opponents about mandatory effects (that happen to usually be beneficial) is cheating", then I think I agree. If you're saying "not reminding your opponents of optional and (usually) beneficial effects while reminding them of (usually) detrimental effects is cheating" then I strongly disagree. Within some subset of the gray area, the latter might be unsportsmanlike conduct, perhaps, but that's different from cheating.
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jonaskoelker

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Re: Reminder tokens?
« Reply #19 on: November 14, 2017, 01:42:12 pm »
0

I don't think coin tokens on piles is a thing yet
Trade Route.
Oh hey, indeed. It hasn't been obvious in any online Dominion I've ever seen that these are coin tokens, but the rulebook says so.
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