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LastFootnote

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Bonus Preview #1: Crypt
« on: October 23, 2017, 08:02:50 am »
+34

Hello, and welcome to the first Nocturne bonus preview. Today I’m going to talk about Crypt.



Crypt is yet another Night-Duration card. But unlike most Duration cards, Crypt may stay in play for several turns, providing you with an ongoing benefit. When you play a Crypt, you set aside any number of Treasure cards you have in play, and you get to put one back into your hand as an extra card at the start of each of your turns until they run out. It’s like you got to use each Treasure twice!

Often you’ll just set aside all the Treasures you have in play, but probably not every time. Maybe you’ll play two Crypts in the same turn and want to split your Treasures between them, or maybe you just won’t want to have all of your Treasures trapped in a Crypt. Or perhaps you might prefer them to sit in your Crypt for as long as possible! You won’t have to draw those Coppers for a while.

I’ll be back each day this week with another bonus preview. I plan to continue posting them around 8:00 AM Eastern Time, 5:00 AM Pacific Time. See you again tomorrow!
« Last Edit: October 24, 2017, 02:39:31 pm by LastFootnote »
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Re: Bonus Preview #1: Crypt
« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2017, 08:13:02 am »
+1

A cool Mint variant.
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Re: Bonus Preview #1: Crypt
« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2017, 08:24:06 am »
+1

I've been dissapointed by the art so far. Crypt looks weriedly off center and a little to much like a sketch.
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Re: Bonus Preview #1: Crypt
« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2017, 08:26:54 am »
+1

Man, this is a cool card. Like an Archive but you can control what you set aside. I read it wrong at first and thought each turn you could set aside more treasures, which would be pretty darn good.

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Re: Bonus Preview #1: Crypt
« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2017, 08:32:23 am »
+1

A cool Mint variant.

Strikes me as more of an Herbalist variant.
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Re: Bonus Preview #1: Crypt
« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2017, 08:52:37 am »
0

Looks like I wasn't so far off with my speculations on how Night cards work. They mostly use resources produced during your regular turn, although I'm still kinda curious whether there will be one to take away coins you produced. I did not expect the sub-theme of "on-buy Durations". So far so good.

I've been dissapointed by the art so far. Crypt looks weriedly off center and a little to much like a sketch.

Oh god yes. Devil's Workshop is scary to look at for all the wrong reasons.

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Re: Bonus Preview #1: Crypt
« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2017, 09:02:47 am »
0

Nice card, I wonder if the treasure cards can be put in any order or have to be shuffled.
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Re: Bonus Preview #1: Crypt
« Reply #7 on: October 23, 2017, 09:04:04 am »
+2

Nice card, I wonder if the treasure cards can be put in any order or have to be shuffled.
Based on how Archive works, I'd say you can pick which one you get each turn.
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Re: Bonus Preview #1: Crypt
« Reply #8 on: October 23, 2017, 09:07:21 am »
0

A cool Mint variant.

Strikes me as more of an Herbalist variant.

You get to remove Treasure cards from your deck (although only temporarily), so it functions pretty similarly to Mint.
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Re: Bonus Preview #1: Crypt
« Reply #9 on: October 23, 2017, 09:08:45 am »
+2

Why does the treasure need to be set aside face down? Your opponent saw which treasures you played and he also sees what you set aside, so this is not really about hidden information.

Thes same clause is used for Haven, but there it exist to avoid that you know what you set aside. Gear uses it too, but there you take all your cards back after you played it, so it does not really matter which way they are faced. Also your opponent has no idea what you set aside. Save, in contrast, feels very similiar to this card and it does not use this clause.

It is not really important, but I am just curious.

Edit: And Archive states explicitly that you may look at them.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2017, 09:11:00 am by BBL »
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Re: Bonus Preview #1: Crypt
« Reply #10 on: October 23, 2017, 09:10:30 am »
+6

Why does the treasure need to be set aside face down? Your opponent saw which treasures you played and he also sees what you set aside, so this is not really about hidden information.

Thes same clause is used for Haven, but there it exist to avoid that you know what you set aside. Gear uses it too, but there you take all your cards back after you played it, so it does not really matter which way they are faced. Also your opponent has no idea what you set aside. Save, in contrast, feels very similiar to this card and it does not use this clause.

It is not really important, but I am just curious.

Your opponent doesn't know which cards you already put in your hand abd which are still there.
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Re: Bonus Preview #1: Crypt
« Reply #11 on: October 23, 2017, 09:10:55 am »
+8

A cool Mint variant.

Strikes me as more of an Herbalist variant.

Herbalist basically counts against your hand size, when this is purely additive.

That said, calling it a “Mint variant” is still one of those totally ridiculous comparisons with just enough of a grain of truth to them that some think they’re useful; a classic Awaclus post. Any attempt to engage this babblery won’t end with anyone being satisfied with anything.

The way it’s like Mint is that it takes Treasures out of your shuffle, like temporary trashing. That’s a lot more like Archive than Mint, but it’s cool that you can use the Treasures first and then get rid of them, and it’s cool that you don’t have to get cards from the deck vs in play for setting aside purposes.
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Re: Bonus Preview #1: Crypt
« Reply #12 on: October 23, 2017, 09:13:27 am »
+3

Courtier has plenty to gossip about in Nocturne ("a non-action card with 3 types!?").

This card, wow. It's like a super Treasure Save, but you don't have to hold back any treasures for spending and it is not hurt by discard attacks. What's more, it can help set up major card combos/synergies even if you lack trashing. You can have a major turn where you draw all your treasures, then set them aside with Crypt, and next turn you'll just have you Action cards and maybe some Estates. This lets you, say, expend more actions on playing Bridge than on draw.

Has a nice interaction with Counting House, and cool alt-treasure like Crown and Fortune.

Still have to avoid the Storyteller problem of letting a card lock up your economy.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2017, 09:15:27 am by markusin »
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Re: Bonus Preview #1: Crypt
« Reply #13 on: October 23, 2017, 09:18:16 am »
+14

This may be the best Capital synergy yet!

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Re: Bonus Preview #1: Crypt
« Reply #14 on: October 23, 2017, 10:09:43 am »
+3

This may be the best Capital synergy yet!

Seems really good for Capital, besides that it will set them aside if you play multiple Capitals and don't want the debt.

Another good synergy with Encampment to save Plunders and Golds. I also REALLY like fact that you can hide away coppers.
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Re: Bonus Preview #1: Crypt
« Reply #15 on: October 23, 2017, 10:19:53 am »
0

Pretty good card, pseudo trashing ability to pull coppers out of your deck for a while.

Feels like a decent way to ensure you get some money in hand without clogging an engine as it removes itself from play for at least half of your shuffles.

Synergies I can see as a terrible player:

Capital: As mentioned above, probably one of the easiest ways to handle avoiding the downside of Capital, since it doesn't cost an action or a buy.

Philosopher's stone: why are you buying philosopher's stone? Well, if you're going to find a way to use it effectively, this is probably the one as it allows you to ensure it will come up as you are on your last hand before reshuffling.

Talisman: Get an extra play out of Talisman each time you play it, pretty good, but feels like you usually would just rather buy more talismans since you are usually seeking a 3 pile ending with talismans.

Quarry: Might be interesting setting it aside in anticipation of a reshuffle or knowing what's left in your deck preparing for a big turn, clearing out all your coppers could make a no trashing board viable for mega-turn engine in casual play.

Any other 5 cost treasure: Feels questionable at best, unless you're also taking advantage of pulling coppers out of your deck on a low-no trash power board. I would usually just rather purchase another copy of an expensive treasure after buying a quality trasher.
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Re: Bonus Preview #1: Crypt
« Reply #16 on: October 23, 2017, 10:21:28 am »
+1

Hard to see how this is best used. The thinning effect seems hard to set up; first you need to hit $5, and then you need to draw it with lots of your junk Treasure, and even then it's only temporary. A better use is to ensure you have cards you want in your starting hand; but then again there are not many reasons you'd want specifically Treasures in your starting hand. Overall I think it's on the weak side.
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Re: Bonus Preview #1: Crypt
« Reply #17 on: October 23, 2017, 10:31:28 am »
+1

A cool Mint variant.

Strikes me as more of an Herbalist variant.

Herbalist basically counts against your hand size, when this is purely additive.

That said, calling it a “Mint variant” is still one of those totally ridiculous comparisons with just enough of a grain of truth to them that some think they’re useful; a classic Awaclus post. Any attempt to engage this babblery won’t end with anyone being satisfied with anything.

The way it’s like Mint is that it takes Treasures out of your shuffle, like temporary trashing. That’s a lot more like Archive than Mint, but it’s cool that you can use the Treasures first and then get rid of them, and it’s cool that you don’t have to get cards from the deck vs in play for setting aside purposes.

I was only thinking about the on-play effect of Mint so it makes a little more sense now, as opposed to almost none before.
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Re: Bonus Preview #1: Crypt
« Reply #18 on: October 23, 2017, 11:02:17 am »
+2

I think this will be nice with storyteller. Storyteller can provide a large amount of treasures to hide, and Crypt then improves the Storyteller you draw at the start each turn.

It will also be big with Feodum, and can perhaps be a way to pull a Feodum strategy on an engine.

Overall very unique and hard to judge.
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Re: Bonus Preview #1: Crypt
« Reply #19 on: October 23, 2017, 11:42:27 am »
+1

This is good for selective trashing. You get this early, stash away a bunch of coppers, then trash them or Miser them one at a time. Also works like Baker for smoothing.
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Re: Bonus Preview #1: Crypt
« Reply #20 on: October 23, 2017, 11:46:52 am »
+1

This is good for selective trashing. You get this early, stash away a bunch of coppers, then trash them or Miser them one at a time. Also works like Baker for smoothing.
Speaking of which, it's a way to guarantee Coppers in your starting hand for Ratcatcher.
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Re: Bonus Preview #1: Crypt
« Reply #21 on: October 23, 2017, 01:51:49 pm »
+1

Very interesting.

Obvious comparison is to Archive. This, like Archive, is a not-a-terminal-action which adds one card to your hand for some turns.

Pro: it's easier to steer.
Pro: it can't be drawn dead.
Pro: has the potential to boost a larger number of hands.
Con: has the potential to boost a smaller number of hands.
Con: it doesn't add cards to your hand on the turn you play it.
Not sure if good, bad, indifferent or just different: it only sets aside treasures. (This increases your deck's Estate density if/while you have any.)

If you're playing BM, you have to hit $8 off of the other 4 cards in hand to get a Province, which takes a money density of $2/card. That sounds like a tall order. On the other hand, the closer you get, the more high-valued treasures you get to replay on your next 1-4 turns, which sounds like it almost guarantees a Province. BM with Crypt and a bit of terminal draw sounds like a really nice flavor of BM.

In engines, hmm... you can temporarily thin out your Copper while you trash down and build up, but the opportunity cost is another $5'er. Also, the Coppers will come back. Do you try to juggle the Coppers between two Crypts? If you have cards set aside with two Crypts, one of them has to run out before you can set cards aside again. Hm, maybe if your trashing is one card per turn, it's worthwhile to set aside a big chunk, then trash the incoming cards one by one.

When you're up to the point where your engine draws deck, do you really want to set aside multiple of your payload treasures? I don't think so. If I'm right, then if you have two Crypts setting aside one Gold each in an alternating pattern, you must draw one Crypt+Gold pair on each of your turns, rather than Gold+Gold if you had no Crypts, so that's a wash—except it goes wonky if you miss a turn. I see Salvager and Remodel as good Crypt partners: they trash Estates early and make good use of Crypts once they have outlived their usefulness.

Maybe Crypt really shines in Good Stuff decks? If you don't draw your entire deck, setting aside and replaying multiple high-value treasures is probably okayish-to-fine-to-great; it seems to get the most out of the upside with relatively little of the downside.
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Re: Bonus Preview #1: Crypt
« Reply #22 on: October 23, 2017, 02:11:40 pm »
0

I don’t know how good it will be, but I like it!
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Re: Bonus Preview #1: Crypt
« Reply #23 on: October 23, 2017, 02:48:10 pm »
+1

It's a way to protect Platinum and other expensive treasures from Bandit attacks.
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Re: Bonus Preview #1: Crypt
« Reply #24 on: October 23, 2017, 03:09:01 pm »
+1

I just watched Qvist play a Capital/Crypt game.  It looks bonkers, but also really wonky.  In order for it to work, you need to set aside all your Capitals with Crypt, but then you can only get one Capital out from it each turn.  It appears the Capital split is important.
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Re: Bonus Preview #1: Crypt
« Reply #25 on: October 23, 2017, 03:18:53 pm »
+1

It should be useful in a set with any card that functions better with a particular treasure card, like Alchemist or Merchant.
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Re: Bonus Preview #1: Crypt
« Reply #26 on: October 23, 2017, 03:51:18 pm »
0

It's a way to protect Platinum and other expensive treasures from Bandit attacks.

Even without attacks, a $5 Treasure Scheme is more attractive than it would be with just Gold and below.
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Re: Bonus Preview #1: Crypt
« Reply #27 on: October 23, 2017, 03:57:56 pm »
+1

This card will really hate being drawn with Curses, Ruins, and Victory cards.  Slogs, junk attacks, and Militias will hurt.

I wonder if drawing your deck and then setting aside two or three Crypts loaded with Gold+Silver will be viable often.  With a little +Buy and enough treasure and draw, you could get 2-3 provinces now and then one every turn.  It sounds kewl, but can you actually pull it off fast enough to win over other strategies?  Or maybe two Provinces now + a Duchy every turn will suffice?  Or if you're behind, 3-4 Duchies now and a Province or Duchy every turn?
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Re: Bonus Preview #1: Crypt
« Reply #28 on: October 23, 2017, 04:11:56 pm »
0

It's probably a bad strategy, but if you Bonfire your Crypt, can you keep all your set aside Treasure out of play forever?
« Last Edit: October 23, 2017, 04:13:39 pm by ephesos »
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Re: Bonus Preview #1: Crypt
« Reply #29 on: October 23, 2017, 04:14:30 pm »
+3

It's probably a bad strategy, but if you Bonfire your Crypt, can you keep all your set aside Treasure out of play forever?

You can’t Bonfire Crypt as the Night phase occurs after the Buy phase (I guess you can Bonfire it in future turns?)

Additionally, the effect is not contingent on the card remaining in play, so Bonfiring the Night card will have no effect.
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Re: Bonus Preview #1: Crypt
« Reply #30 on: October 23, 2017, 04:18:07 pm »
0

If it worked though, it would be an excellent strategy (assuming you get there before you've already trashed almost all of your Treasures with Bonfire).
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Re: Bonus Preview #1: Crypt
« Reply #31 on: October 23, 2017, 04:21:01 pm »
0

It's probably a bad strategy, but if you Bonfire your Crypt, can you keep all your set aside Treasure out of play forever?

You can’t Bonfire Crypt as the Night phase occurs after the Buy phase (I guess you can Bonfire it in future turns?)

Additionally, the effect is not contingent on the card remaining in play, so Bonfiring the Night card will have no effect.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking: it's a Duration, so it stays in play and you can Bonfire it next turn after pulling off your best Treasure.

But also, if you move Crypt to the trash, what happens to all the cards underneath it? Do they move with it (in which case, does Crypt lose track of them because they're also in the trash), or do they stay behind (in which case, Crypt loses track of them because they're no longer underneath Crypt)?
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Re: Bonus Preview #1: Crypt
« Reply #32 on: October 23, 2017, 04:32:34 pm »
0

It's probably a bad strategy, but if you Bonfire your Crypt, can you keep all your set aside Treasure out of play forever?

You can’t Bonfire Crypt as the Night phase occurs after the Buy phase (I guess you can Bonfire it in future turns?)

Additionally, the effect is not contingent on the card remaining in play, so Bonfiring the Night card will have no effect.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking: it's a Duration, so it stays in play and you can Bonfire it next turn after pulling off your best Treasure.

But also, if you move Crypt to the trash, what happens to all the cards underneath it? Do they move with it (in which case, does Crypt lose track of them because they're also in the trash), or do they stay behind (in which case, Crypt loses track of them because they're no longer underneath Crypt)?

Doesn't work, just like processing a Haven doesn't move the set-aside cards in the trash. The card still gets resolved like normal.

Edit: Sorry, I misread.

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Re: Bonus Preview #1: Crypt
« Reply #33 on: October 23, 2017, 04:57:18 pm »
0

It's probably a bad strategy, but if you Bonfire your Crypt, can you keep all your set aside Treasure out of play forever?

You can’t Bonfire Crypt as the Night phase occurs after the Buy phase (I guess you can Bonfire it in future turns?)

Additionally, the effect is not contingent on the card remaining in play, so Bonfiring the Night card will have no effect.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking: it's a Duration, so it stays in play and you can Bonfire it next turn after pulling off your best Treasure.

But also, if you move Crypt to the trash, what happens to all the cards underneath it? Do they move with it (in which case, does Crypt lose track of them because they're also in the trash), or do they stay behind (in which case, Crypt loses track of them because they're no longer underneath Crypt)?

This is answered by what I already said. The effect of the action (or Night card) is not dependent on the card remaining in play. The effect is “set” or “put in motion” on-play, regardless of what happens to the card that initiated it.
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Re: Bonus Preview #1: Crypt
« Reply #34 on: October 23, 2017, 05:25:12 pm »
0

It's probably a bad strategy, but if you Bonfire your Crypt, can you keep all your set aside Treasure out of play forever?

You can’t Bonfire Crypt as the Night phase occurs after the Buy phase (I guess you can Bonfire it in future turns?)

Additionally, the effect is not contingent on the card remaining in play, so Bonfiring the Night card will have no effect.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking: it's a Duration, so it stays in play and you can Bonfire it next turn after pulling off your best Treasure.

But also, if you move Crypt to the trash, what happens to all the cards underneath it? Do they move with it (in which case, does Crypt lose track of them because they're also in the trash), or do they stay behind (in which case, Crypt loses track of them because they're no longer underneath Crypt)?

This is answered by what I already said. The effect of the action (or Night card) is not dependent on the card remaining in play. The effect is “set” or “put in motion” on-play, regardless of what happens to the card that initiated it.
True, the effect happening isn't dependent on Crypt being in play, but what does that effect do? The effect says to put Treasures that are under Crypt into your hand, and there are no Treasures under Crypt anymore, since it's in the trash. It's like Ironworks-Trader: Crypt expects there to be a Treasure underneath it, and there isn't, so the Crypt effect does nothing and the cards remain out of play.
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ObtusePunubiris

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Re: Bonus Preview #1: Crypt
« Reply #35 on: October 23, 2017, 05:31:39 pm »
+2

It's probably a bad strategy, but if you Bonfire your Crypt, can you keep all your set aside Treasure out of play forever?

You can’t Bonfire Crypt as the Night phase occurs after the Buy phase (I guess you can Bonfire it in future turns?)

Additionally, the effect is not contingent on the card remaining in play, so Bonfiring the Night card will have no effect.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking: it's a Duration, so it stays in play and you can Bonfire it next turn after pulling off your best Treasure.

But also, if you move Crypt to the trash, what happens to all the cards underneath it? Do they move with it (in which case, does Crypt lose track of them because they're also in the trash), or do they stay behind (in which case, Crypt loses track of them because they're no longer underneath Crypt)?

This is answered by what I already said. The effect of the action (or Night card) is not dependent on the card remaining in play. The effect is “set” or “put in motion” on-play, regardless of what happens to the card that initiated it.
True, the effect happening isn't dependent on Crypt being in play, but what does that effect do? The effect says to put Treasures that are under Crypt into your hand, and there are no Treasures under Crypt anymore, since it's in the trash. It's like Ironworks-Trader: Crypt expects there to be a Treasure underneath it, and there isn't, so the Crypt effect does nothing and the cards remain out of play.

I believe "While any remain" refers to "Set aside", not "under this."  So in essence it means, "While any remain set aside..." which is not necessarily dependent upon them being under Crypt.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2017, 05:33:18 pm by ObtusePunubiris »
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Donald X.

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Re: Bonus Preview #1: Crypt
« Reply #36 on: October 23, 2017, 05:56:48 pm »
+5

Using Bonfire on Crypt will not stop the effect. Sorry Bonfire doesn't say non-duration; fortunately people normally do not want to trash their durations.
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Cave-o-sapien

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Re: Bonus Preview #1: Crypt
« Reply #37 on: October 23, 2017, 07:22:05 pm »
0

Using Bonfire on Crypt will not stop the effect. Sorry Bonfire doesn't say non-duration; fortunately people normally do not want to trash their durations.

So it's similar to a Processed Hireling?
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Robz888

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Re: Bonus Preview #1: Crypt
« Reply #38 on: October 23, 2017, 10:03:03 pm »
0

I quite like Crypt. Just having some Coppers not in your deck for a couple turns is pretty nice.
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jonaskoelker

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Re: Bonus Preview #1: Crypt
« Reply #39 on: October 24, 2017, 02:34:49 pm »
0

I just watched Qvist play a Capital/Crypt game.

I assume it's this one. I watched it too, and Capital/Crypt is pretty bonkers. Unlike Capital/Mandarin, it looks like this one depends on trashing—or some other way of lining up your Capital with your Crypt.

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FemurLemur

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Re: Bonus Preview #1: Crypt
« Reply #40 on: October 24, 2017, 03:34:57 pm »
+1

I've been dissapointed by the art so far. Crypt looks weriedly off center and a little to much like a sketch.

I don't mind the art, but I'm not too crazy about the inconsistent white text on black background (for Night-Durations: some of the text is white and some is black, and for all night cards: they left the number on the coin symbol black, even when it appears in the body of the card description). I would have preferred if the Night cards had been purple or light grey so black text could still work. But I'm sure I'll get used to it.

Also, the yellow set icon is going to bother me a lot more than it should.

But a Quality of Life change I am pretty excited about is having the use of an Heirloom determined by the presence of a specific Kingdom card, as opposed to using similar logic as Shelters or Platinum/Colony. I mean, there are actual balance reasons for that too, as they were clearly designed with the companion card in mind. But still, it's nice all the same.
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popsofctown

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Re: Bonus Preview #1: Crypt
« Reply #41 on: October 25, 2017, 12:39:10 am »
0

This thing has seemed crazy skill intensive when I play with it.  The complexity of what's gonna miss the reshuffle, what's going to be saved for a key turn, whether you should store fewer than the full amount of treasures so you can redraw it, attempts to use it as a pseudo trasher on boards with no trashing or only estate trashing but good engine pieces, then like, the normal is this as good as the other 5's right now.

Really sweet card.

The archive one isn't sweet like that mostly because it sucks.
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