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Author Topic: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town  (Read 19672 times)

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Cave-o-sapien

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #200 on: December 14, 2017, 03:28:45 pm »
0

That's how Donald originally had it, for like one game. It just destroyed turns, I believe.

I suspected that might have been the case. I'm probably underestimating how strong its "targeted" attack is if used carefully.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2017, 06:44:38 pm by Cave-o-sapien »
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Gazbag

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #201 on: December 14, 2017, 06:26:33 pm »
0

I find Raider strange, if you can't trash Copper then it's just a big Cutpurse thing, but if you have trashed your Coppers then your deck is often in a state where discarding 1 card doesn't do much either and it hurts about as much as Urchin. I can see a small window where your deck is starting to kick off but you still have a few Coppers/Estates left where the attack could be devastating, but things would have to line up right and I'm not sure how often I'd want to spend a $6 buy on a stop card at that stage. I guess it can punish early greening maybe?

It seems better than the first 1 or 2 Golds in Big Money, but that's only come up for me once so far and my Raiders missed the shuffle a few times so it didn't work out well on that occasion. But if they don't miss it's clearly better than Gold so I assume that was just a bad game, small sample and all that.
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markusin

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #202 on: December 14, 2017, 07:56:04 pm »
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Sometimes Urchin is a good card. Raider is that with a delayed Gold effect (but maybe you need 2).
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faust

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #203 on: December 15, 2017, 01:17:26 am »
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Sometimes Urchin is a good card. Raider is that with a delayed Gold effect (but maybe you need 2).
Not really; the times when Urchin shines is mostly when you make your opponent draw big hands with Governor/Council Room, and then have them discard down to 4. Raider can't do that.
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Chris is me

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #204 on: December 15, 2017, 09:24:05 am »
0

Raider sucks lol

Like, ďsucksĒ in dominion is relative, thereís still times youíll buy it, thereís still boards for it, and if it kills a turn once it was probably worth it. But damn itís expensive and hard to make work for a payoff greater than forcing a Copper discard. Buying two cards to force a discard attack every turn that seems to miss more easily than Militia, a card you only need one of... and having those cards cost $6... Ugh.

At least itís competitive with Gold once an engine is consistently set up. And if you are lucky and careful enough to force a Village discard its awesome.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2017, 09:25:41 am by Chris is me »
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weesh

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #205 on: December 15, 2017, 10:35:22 am »
+1

out of the 8 or so times I've seen it played, it completely wrecked someone's turn twice.
i'm so glad it's a duration, and I don't have to face the same one every turn.

Quote
Never get more than two.

Any particular reason?  It seems like a card that stacks decently well, since you could get a weak card on the first discard, and then force a strong discard.
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Chappy7

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #206 on: December 15, 2017, 10:56:13 am »
+2

out of the 8 or so times I've seen it played, it completely wrecked someone's turn twice.
i'm so glad it's a duration, and I don't have to face the same one every turn.

Quote
Never get more than two.

Any particular reason?  It seems like a card that stacks decently well, since you could get a weak card on the first discard, and then force a strong discard.

Only if they had more than 5 cards in their hand in the first place. 
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crj

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #207 on: December 15, 2017, 07:28:15 pm »
+1

Raider sucks lol
[...]
At least itís competitive with Gold once an engine is consistently set up.
So what would a fair price be for a Night-Duration card that was just "At the start of your next turn, +$3"?
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Asper

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #208 on: December 15, 2017, 09:58:25 pm »
+1

Raider sucks lol
[...]
At least itís competitive with Gold once an engine is consistently set up.
So what would a fair price be for a Night-Duration card that was just "At the start of your next turn, +$3"?

5$, I'd say. It wouldn't be great compared to other 5$ s that give +3$, simply because in the very early game it's worse than those and in the midgame you could have Gold instead, but I don't see it at 4$, honestly. Some people will say 4$ is enough, but I'd rather give such a card a little extra boost, or some slight additional downside to make it work for 4$.

crj

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #209 on: December 15, 2017, 11:13:23 pm »
+1

$4 or $5 is my instinct, too.

Costing an extra $1 or $2 and incorporating an attack that will usually be vexatious and situationally pretty nasty seems fair enough to me.
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ipofanes

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #210 on: January 08, 2018, 03:57:10 am »
+3

There is a benefit of damaging the current turn while boosting the next one, and of not taking an Action slot. Otherwise, you could wonder how Den of Sin is $5 while Moat is $2, or while Enchantress is $3.
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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #211 on: January 09, 2018, 02:00:15 am »
0

It varies, right?  When the turn you damage buys a 2$ card that'd you'd happily spend 4 on, then shoots your next turn that would have been a 3$ turn to a 5 or six, that's sweet.  But if it sends you from 5$ to 8$, and you don't have a +buy and it's early, you probably don't gain that much (probably you buy the Province anyway, but it's not really a powerful pickup too early).
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ipofanes

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #212 on: January 09, 2018, 07:52:43 am »
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Your first example hints at an early Encampment/Gold gambit.

You cannot foresee the next hand exactly, but a conclusion would be that you can make a mediocre turn a bad turn but not a bad turn a visit to Baths, as your next tern will already be good enough.
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faust

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #213 on: January 09, 2018, 08:27:26 am »
+1

There is a benefit of damaging the current turn while boosting the next one, and of not taking an Action slot. Otherwise, you could wonder how Den of Sin is $5 while Moat is $2, or while Enchantress is $3.
Den of Sin is $5 because it's an Expedition the turn you buy it.
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Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

Chase Adolphson

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #214 on: April 23, 2018, 03:28:11 am »
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Ghost town should cost more. It's basically a lost city.
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ipofanes

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #215 on: April 23, 2018, 03:52:06 am »
+1

Ghost town should cost more. It's basically a lost city.

The delayed effect is a Lost City, but the delay comes with a price (mostly by missing reshuffles/being effective only every 2nd engine turns). Lighthouse is not a Peddler, Caravan is not a Laboratory.

The question is if there should be a penalty to being a Night card as opposed to a cantrip +action duration action card. Action card can be trashed for benefit by Sacrifice and Zombie Apprentice, they are not skipped by Wandering Minstrel, they don't interrupt a series of cards drawn by Scrying Pool, can be Advanced, can be played before Tactician and before Haunted Forest takes effect, deliver a +Action to Ironmonger and so on. The on-buy effect of some of these Night cards should balance this out, so I would agree that Ghost Town would be bought at $4 too.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2018, 08:54:19 am by ipofanes »
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Chase Adolphson

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #216 on: April 23, 2018, 03:55:26 am »
0

Ghost town should cost more. It's basically a lost city.

The delayed effect is a Lost City, but the delay comes with a price (mostly by missing reshuffles/being effective only every 2nd engine turns). Lighthouse is not a Peddler, Caravan is not a Laboratory.

The question is if there should be a penalty to being a Night card as opposed to a cantrip duration action card. Action card can be trashed for benefit by Sacrifice and Zombie Apprentice, they are not skipped by Wandering Minstrel, they don't interrupt a series of cards drawn by Scrying Pool, can be Advanced, can be played before Tactician and before Haunted Forest takes effect, deliver a +Action to Ironmonger and so on. The on-buy effect of some of these Night cards should balance this out, so I would agree that Ghost Town would be bought at $4 too.


In most games I would buy it at five
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Chris is me

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #217 on: April 23, 2018, 07:32:17 am »
+8

Ghost town should cost more. It's basically a lost city.

The delayed effect is a Lost City, but the delay comes with a price (mostly by missing reshuffles/being effective only every 2nd engine turns). Lighthouse is not a Peddler, Caravan is not a Laboratory.

The question is if there should be a penalty to being a Night card as opposed to a cantrip duration action card. Action card can be trashed for benefit by Sacrifice and Zombie Apprentice, they are not skipped by Wandering Minstrel, they don't interrupt a series of cards drawn by Scrying Pool, can be Advanced, can be played before Tactician and before Haunted Forest takes effect, deliver a +Action to Ironmonger and so on. The on-buy effect of some of these Night cards should balance this out, so I would agree that Ghost Town would be bought at $4 too.


In most games I would buy it at five

You'd also buy Tunnel at five tho
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crj

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #218 on: April 23, 2018, 10:09:20 am »
+3

Ghost town should cost more. It's basically a lost city.
Ignoring the more detailed discussion, it's not basically a Lost City, even in the simplest terms.

When you play a Village, you end up with 1 more action than you started with (playing Village costs an action and removes a card from your hand, then you draw another card and get 2 actions).

When you play a Lost City, you end up with 1 more action and 1 more card than you started with.

When you play a Ghost Town, you end up with 1 more action than you started with (playing it removes a card from your hand but doesn't cost an action, then you draw another card and get an action). That makes it very firmly a kind of "village". not a kind of "laboratory".

I think Ghost Town is a good card, in the sense that it adds interest to the game rather than that it's mega strong. Compared with vanilla Village, it has a series of upsides and downsides which make it play very differently in practice:
  • You can play it the turn after you buy it, without waiting for a reshuffle
  • It can't be drawn dead
  • It gives its benefit at start of turn, when it's most valuable
  • It's in play for two turns, so shuffles through more slowly and can only be played at most once every other turn
  • It's no help to you on your current turn
  • It's not an action, so interactions fail with all sorts of things (throne rooms, Adventures tokens, Vassal/Herald/Golem, Ironworks/Ironmonger, and so on.)
Is it better or worse than a normal Village? That's hard to tell, and very situational. $3 seems a fair price, and in any case how often will you ever have the choice between the two?

(In any case, Ghost Town has lovely art. (-8 )
« Last Edit: April 23, 2018, 11:18:18 am by crj »
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ipofanes

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #219 on: April 23, 2018, 10:32:48 am »
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I think Cursed Village is a good card

That irritated me a lot.
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crj

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #220 on: April 23, 2018, 11:19:14 am »
+1

That irritated me a lot.
Sorry - fixed.

Am I the only person who finds it really hard to remember which is which? Two thematically-similar Night villages in the same set.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #221 on: April 23, 2018, 11:36:35 am »
+2

That irritated me a lot.
Sorry - fixed.

Am I the only person who finds it really hard to remember which is which? Two thematically-similar Night villages in the same set.

Cursed Village isn't Night...
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Chase Adolphson

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #222 on: April 23, 2018, 06:37:51 pm »
0

Ghost town should cost more. It's basically a lost city.

The delayed effect is a Lost City, but the delay comes with a price (mostly by missing reshuffles/being effective only every 2nd engine turns). Lighthouse is not a Peddler, Caravan is not a Laboratory.

The question is if there should be a penalty to being a Night card as opposed to a cantrip duration action card. Action card can be trashed for benefit by Sacrifice and Zombie Apprentice, they are not skipped by Wandering Minstrel, they don't interrupt a series of cards drawn by Scrying Pool, can be Advanced, can be played before Tactician and before Haunted Forest takes effect, deliver a +Action to Ironmonger and so on. The on-buy effect of some of these Night cards should balance this out, so I would agree that Ghost Town would be bought at $4 too.


In most games I would buy it at five

You'd also buy Tunnel at five tho


I'm surprised you'd actually remember me saying that but that one I take back. I would buy tunnel at 4. But I would still buy ghost town at five.
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Chase Adolphson

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #223 on: April 23, 2018, 06:44:30 pm »
0

Ghost town should cost more. It's basically a lost city.
Ignoring the more detailed discussion, it's not basically a Lost City, even in the simplest terms.

When you play a Village, you end up with 1 more action than you started with (playing Village costs an action and removes a card from your hand, then you draw another card and get 2 actions).

When you play a Lost City, you end up with 1 more action and 1 more card than you started with.

When you play a Ghost Town, you end up with 1 more action than you started with (playing it removes a card from your hand but doesn't cost an action, then you draw another card and get an action). That makes it very firmly a kind of "village". not a kind of "laboratory".

I think Ghost Town is a good card, in the sense that it adds interest to the game rather than that it's mega strong. Compared with vanilla Village, it has a series of upsides and downsides which make it play very differently in practice:
  • You can play it the turn after you buy it, without waiting for a reshuffle
  • It can't be drawn dead
  • It gives its benefit at start of turn, when it's most valuable
  • It's in play for two turns, so shuffles through more slowly and can only be played at most once every other turn
  • It's no help to you on your current turn
  • It's not an action, so interactions fail with all sorts of things (throne rooms, Adventures tokens, Vassal/Herald/Golem, Ironworks/Ironmonger, and so on.)
Is it better or worse than a normal Village? That's hard to tell, and very situational. $3 seems a fair price, and in any case how often will you ever have the choice between the two?

(In any case, Ghost Town has lovely art. (-8 )


I'm pretty sure we all know that you love the art for ghost town. Personally it's not my favorite art, farmlands the best
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