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Author Topic: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town  (Read 15360 times)

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Asper

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #175 on: November 07, 2017, 04:25:41 am »
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Ghost Town seems like an ok Village, but I'd rather have Coin of the Realm.

Definitely. It takes twice as many Ghost Towns as Villages to play the same number of terminals. It would take 8 Ghost Towns to play 5 terminals every turn. Yuck. It only takes 4 Villages or 4 Coins of the Realm to do the same thing, and Coins have the advantage of being optional.

That's under the assumption you can draw your deck. I guess this is relatively often the case for 2P games, but the more players, the more likely is it that Ghost Town will be just as good as Village in that respect. Which in turn gives the card's other abilities (never drawn dead, planning ahead to spike next turn) more room to shine.

greybirdofprey

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #176 on: November 07, 2017, 11:04:49 am »
+1

If I use Devil's Workshop during a Possessed turn, will I only ever get Gold?
If you use Devil's Workshop while possessed, you won't get anything. You're possessed!

If you make another player use Devil's Workshop while possessing them, they have not gained any cards this turn, so they would gain a Gold, except then you gain it.

Yes, that's what i meant. Thank you!

I was looking for a way to trigger the 1-gain effect (up to 4-cost card) on DW multiple times on a turn to successfully gain multiple cards, but it seems like it's impossible (currently).

Outpost and mission but that's technically two turns.
Duplicate can let you get two of the gained card, but that's not triggering the 1-gain effect.
As far as I know there's no way to un-gain a card. Trashing it with a watchtower or something doesn't change the fact that you gained it.
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Gazbag

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #177 on: November 07, 2017, 12:11:24 pm »
+1

If I use Devil's Workshop during a Possessed turn, will I only ever get Gold?
If you use Devil's Workshop while possessed, you won't get anything. You're possessed!

If you make another player use Devil's Workshop while possessing them, they have not gained any cards this turn, so they would gain a Gold, except then you gain it.

Yes, that's what i meant. Thank you!

I was looking for a way to trigger the 1-gain effect (up to 4-cost card) on DW multiple times on a turn to successfully gain multiple cards, but it seems like it's impossible (currently).

Outpost and mission but that's technically two turns.
Duplicate can let you get two of the gained card, but that's not triggering the 1-gain effect.
As far as I know there's no way to un-gain a card. Trashing it with a watchtower or something doesn't change the fact that you gained it.
I think revealing Trader with an empty Silver pile "un-gains" the card and lets you trigger the 1-gain effect of Devil's Workshop multiple times (not a rules expert so I might be wrong) , but unfortunately doesn't let you get multiple 4 costs.
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JThorne

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #178 on: November 07, 2017, 03:52:13 pm »
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That's under the assumption you can draw your deck.

At the risk of sounding like Awaclus, if you're not drawing deck, is it really an engine, or just a BM-variant?

Quote
I guess this is relatively often the case for 2P games, but the more players, the more likely is it that Ghost Town will be just as good as Village in that respect. Which in turn gives the card's other abilities (never drawn dead, planning ahead to spike next turn) more room to shine.

I'm still not buying the "just as good as Village" or even "better than Village" arguments when it's granting half as many +actions, which is Village's primary benefit. (Also, I definitely whiffed on the Conspirator/Peddler comment. Right. Not an action. Night card. That's going to take some getting used to.)

I can definitely see the scenario you're describing, in which it's behaving a bit more like a Caravan or mini-Tactician, but at that point, it's non longer being used as an engine card and starts being a BM card, where you're oscillating between good/bad turns, spiking price points, and strategizing around an average coins/actions/points per turn. That's BM. And multiplayer games definitely fall into the BM category more often than 2P games, so that would fit your observation.

But again, even in a multi-player game, if Ghost Town is the only source of +Action, that's going to absolutely strangle the available terminal space and will restrict the way terminals are played far more than Villages would. Ghost Town might end up being the first Village variant that tilts some kingdoms away from engines and towards BM.
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Awaclus

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #179 on: November 07, 2017, 04:19:43 pm »
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That's under the assumption you can draw your deck.

At the risk of sounding like Awaclus, if you're not drawing deck, is it really an engine, or just a BM-variant?

That doesn't depend on whether or not you are drawing your deck, it depends on how you are playing it. Some BM variants can draw the deck and some engines can't.
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Asper

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #180 on: November 07, 2017, 04:29:02 pm »
+2

I'm still not buying the "just as good as Village" or even "better than Village" arguments when it's granting half as many +actions, which is Village's primary benefit.

How is "lose 1, get 2" more than "lose 0, get 1"?

Chris is me

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #181 on: November 07, 2017, 04:42:55 pm »
+2

I'm still not buying the "just as good as Village" or even "better than Village" arguments when it's granting half as many +actions, which is Village's primary benefit.

How is "lose 1, get 2" more than "lose 0, get 1"?

Hes not referring to the literal number of actions on the card, but that you can only play Ghost Town every other turn. A deck that draws itself would alternate between Ghost Towns and end up with about half of the terminal space vs a Village deck.
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Asper

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #182 on: November 07, 2017, 05:39:30 pm »
+1

I'm still not buying the "just as good as Village" or even "better than Village" arguments when it's granting half as many +actions, which is Village's primary benefit.

How is "lose 1, get 2" more than "lose 0, get 1"?

Hes not referring to the literal number of actions on the card, but that you can only play Ghost Town every other turn. A deck that draws itself would alternate between Ghost Towns and end up with about half of the terminal space vs a Village deck.

I already referenced his assumption of the deck being drawn every turn.

markusin

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #183 on: November 07, 2017, 11:10:50 pm »
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Ghost Town front-loads the draw, which is good. Ghost Town also has a higher chance to miss the shuffle when you are not drawing your deck, which is bad. All in all, it is appropriately costed. The on-gain is a big selling point.
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Awaclus

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #184 on: November 07, 2017, 11:14:13 pm »
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I already referenced his assumption of the deck being drawn every turn.

Then again, all anti-terminals get weaker the less likely you are to draw your deck every turn.
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JThorne

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #185 on: November 08, 2017, 08:06:22 am »
+1

Quote
Then again, all anti-terminals get weaker the less likely you are to draw your deck every turn.

Definitely. I've watched plenty of players buy village-variants in BM kingdoms and thought to myself: You're not going to get any use out of that. Most of the time, its going to draw one card and your turn will be over. Sometimes a Village idiot is someone who buys any villages at all.

But the on-buy opens up really interesting possibilities for GT, even in BM kingdoms. It has favorable interactions with top-deckers like Harbinger, Scavenger and Courtyard so that you can top-deck a big draw card, buy a Ghost Town and ensure that your next turn starts with a non-terminal big draw. Cool tricks like that actually stop working once you start drawing deck (though turns like that could also be helpful accelerators during engine-building, or after a stall.)

On the whole, I really like Ghost town. I just think comparisons with Village, while inevitable, are a combination of overselling it's ability to generate actions and underselling it's real situational power. For such a simple concept, I suspect it will be a real skill-tester.
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crj

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #186 on: November 08, 2017, 11:02:41 am »
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Hmm. Ghost Town will synergise quite nicely with Guide, won't it?
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JThorne

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #187 on: November 08, 2017, 01:14:16 pm »
+1

Quote
Hmm. Ghost Town will synergise quite nicely with Guide, won't it?

Ghost Town and Guide: When you really, really, really don't want to stall. I'm not sure they synergize; they both want to do the same thing: make sure future hands are good.

In fact, there's a bit of an asterisk if you use them together. If you don't like the 5-card hand you got, you can trigger the Guide first and get a new five-card hand, then trigger the GT and get the sixth card. But it may be that the original 5-card hand would have been great with that sixth card, but if you trigger the GT first, don't like the six-card hand and Guide it away, you lose the extra card. You have the same dilemma with any duration draw like Caravan, Wharf or Haunted Woods; you have to make the Guide decision based on the original 5 cards.

Where Guide really shines is handsize-reduction durations or reserves, or to go back to a full hand after a discard attack like Militia or Goons. Guiding after an Outpost gives you a 5-card hand. Guiding after calling Ratcatchers to trash junk replenishes a full 5-card hand. Guiding after a second-turn Amulet trashing also goes back up to a 5-card hand.

What specifically are you seeing in a Guide/Ghost Town synergy?
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crj

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #188 on: November 08, 2017, 03:34:33 pm »
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What specifically are you seeing in a Guide/Ghost Town synergy?
a) Timing: you can buy Ghost Town when you have a Guide in Reserve to be sure you get both effects together.
b) The combination of the hand you want, and an extra action to play it with.

I wasn't focusing so much on Ghost Town's extra draw, though that's obviously also good to have.
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stechafle

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #189 on: November 11, 2017, 09:24:02 am »
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I was thinking Devil's Workshop/Imp would synergize with a Gainer that removes itself from play like Feast. The gain helps you get Imps. Removing itself from play allows it to be played again if you manage to play more than one Imp. What do you think?
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Accatitippi

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #190 on: November 11, 2017, 12:18:28 pm »
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I was thinking Devil's Workshop/Imp would synergize with a Gainer that removes itself from play like Feast. The gain helps you get Imps. Removing itself from play allows it to be played again if you manage to play more than one Imp. What do you think?

Well, the intersection of the two sets "Gainers" and "Removes itself from play" is pretty barren.
Feast (which is awful, even considering D'sW gains), Market Square (ish), Engineer (once), Wish (once), Mountain Pixie (stretching it), and then what?
Also, given that you already have a gainer in D'sW, I don't think you want many more. A diverse deck rich in nonterminal actions and fielding a couple of Buys seems to be the ideal with Imps.

Nonterminal cards that remove themselves from play are definitely a neat interaction, though, even better if they can be gained with D'sW. But that set is also very restricted. Reserves don't work if you've called one, Raze works, Island is terminal, getting two Death Carts is madness (but hey Ruins turn Imp into Unforeseeable Pawn), and on the spot I can't think of anything else.
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Gherald

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #191 on: November 11, 2017, 04:41:38 pm »
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Obviously an Imp can be less terminal with cards that remove themselves from play, and that's nice. But your gains are more likely to come from something other than that specific card, like a second buy or just playing two Devil's Workshops.
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Cave-o-sapien

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #192 on: November 17, 2017, 01:35:17 pm »
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This may have already been discussed in this thread and I missed it, but if Ghost Town is your only village, you probably want to balance them evenly every other turn.

I had a game in which I had 6 GTs and several Wild Hunts; before I got smart I fell into a pattern of 4 GTs one turn/2 the next. I did better once I opted against playing one of the 4 and went to 3/3.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #193 on: December 12, 2017, 04:01:01 pm »
+3

This may have already been discussed in this thread and I missed it, but if Ghost Town is your only village, you probably want to balance them evenly every other turn.

I had a game in which I had 6 GTs and several Wild Hunts; before I got smart I fell into a pattern of 4 GTs one turn/2 the next. I did better once I opted against playing one of the 4 and went to 3/3.

Isn't this mostly true about all Duration cards?
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Cave-o-sapien

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #194 on: December 12, 2017, 04:20:40 pm »
+4

This may have already been discussed in this thread and I missed it, but if Ghost Town is your only village, you probably want to balance them evenly every other turn.

I had a game in which I had 6 GTs and several Wild Hunts; before I got smart I fell into a pattern of 4 GTs one turn/2 the next. I did better once I opted against playing one of the 4 and went to 3/3.

Isn't this mostly true about all Duration cards?

I think so, but I think it's more important with Ghost Town than it is with say, Fishing Village.
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weesh

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #195 on: December 14, 2017, 11:04:05 am »
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Is raider really swingy? or have you guys been making decks that only have very strong cards?
seems like every other time it comes out, it just grabs a wisp or something similarly underwhelming.

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Dingan

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #196 on: December 14, 2017, 01:13:45 pm »
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Is raider really swingy? or have you guys been making decks that only have very strong cards?
seems like every other time it comes out, it just grabs a wisp or something similarly underwhelming.
I haven't played with it a ton but Raider seems pretty weak to me. It's often just a delayed Gold-Cutpurse. And it doesn't feel stackable because it's junk in your hand and you can't get rid of them for, say, Menagerie. Idk, I'm sure there are some cool things you can do with it like forcing your opponent to discard good cards, but I just haven't seen that much yet. Maybe it's good in big money?
« Last Edit: December 14, 2017, 01:14:57 pm by Dingan »
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Accatitippi

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #197 on: December 14, 2017, 01:22:23 pm »
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I think it's pretty good whenever you can trash all Coppers, and even more so when you can't trash estates.
Never get more than two. Technically it's also slightly better than Gold at spiking high costs, but I've never gotten it for that reason alone - being a duration is a big disadvantage.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2017, 01:30:22 pm by Accatitippi »
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Cave-o-sapien

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #198 on: December 14, 2017, 02:30:05 pm »
+1

Is raider really swingy? or have you guys been making decks that only have very strong cards?
seems like every other time it comes out, it just grabs a wisp or something similarly underwhelming.
I haven't played with it a ton but Raider seems pretty weak to me. It's often just a delayed Gold-Cutpurse. And it doesn't feel stackable because it's junk in your hand and you can't get rid of them for, say, Menagerie. Idk, I'm sure there are some cool things you can do with it like forcing your opponent to discard good cards, but I just haven't seen that much yet. Maybe it's good in big money?

It feels weak to me, too.

I wish the hand-size restriction was 4 cards instead of 5.
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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #199 on: December 14, 2017, 03:15:28 pm »
+1

Is raider really swingy? or have you guys been making decks that only have very strong cards?
seems like every other time it comes out, it just grabs a wisp or something similarly underwhelming.
I haven't played with it a ton but Raider seems pretty weak to me. It's often just a delayed Gold-Cutpurse. And it doesn't feel stackable because it's junk in your hand and you can't get rid of them for, say, Menagerie. Idk, I'm sure there are some cool things you can do with it like forcing your opponent to discard good cards, but I just haven't seen that much yet. Maybe it's good in big money?

It feels weak to me, too.

I wish the hand-size restriction was 4 cards instead of 5.

That's how Donald originally had it, for like one game. It just destroyed turns, I believe.
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