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Author Topic: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town  (Read 103611 times)

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Asper

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #125 on: October 24, 2017, 06:45:54 pm »
0

Why do Imps cost $2? Why not $0* like all other non-Supply things, or even $2*?

Imp does cost $2*. It's right there in the image.

Ah, just noticed the OP has it; ShiT must just not have it yet? And still, why doesn't it cost $0*?



What surprises me more is, why does it not cost $2*?
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Awaclus

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #126 on: October 24, 2017, 06:47:55 pm »
0

What surprises me more is, why does it not cost $2*?

Imp does cost $2*. It's right there in the image.
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King Leon

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #127 on: October 24, 2017, 07:30:01 pm »
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I dreamt about a Village, which you can never draw dead - and here is Ghost Town. Ghost Town + final drawer (e. g. Smithy) will outclass Village + final drawer in most cases.
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Jeebus

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #128 on: October 24, 2017, 08:15:44 pm »
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I haven't read all the discussion, but someone saying just 2 Ghost Towns is the right number means that something's gone wrong. You want more Ghost Towns than other Villages, not less.

JThorne

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #129 on: October 24, 2017, 09:08:04 pm »
0

Quote
I dreamt about a Village, which you can never draw dead - and here is Ghost Town. Ghost Town + final drawer (e. g. Smithy) will outclass Village + final drawer in most cases.

I haven't read all the discussion, but someone saying just 2 Ghost Towns is the right number means that something's gone wrong. You want more Ghost Towns than other Villages, not less.

These statements are flatly not true, for the extremely specific reasons I've already mentioned: It's a duration that confers no benefit the turn you play it, meaning it takes twice as many Ghost Towns as it does Villages to play the same number of terminals. Or is playing 3 Smithies suddenly better than playing 6 Smithies? Or, more to the point, 3 Smithies and 3 Goons, or whatever other terminal is important? Spamming Ghost Towns is a trap that will make Village Idiots look like geniuses. (unless there are NO other +actions.)

If you're in an engine kingdom and you have a choice between GT and another Village Variant, get two GTs and fill out the rest of your engine with Village/Walled Village/Worker's Village/Port/Whatever. Even if you let your opponent get the rest of the GTs; you'll be playing twice as many terminals in your engine while they're spinning their wheels.

I would be happy to see simulator results or reasoned arguments to the contrary if I've missed some important consideration.
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Deadlock39

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #130 on: October 24, 2017, 09:18:23 pm »
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Geronimoo did post a simulator result on Discord indicating that Ghost Town/Wharf beat Village/Wharf pretty badly, but that might be too simple a strategy to say too much.

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #131 on: October 24, 2017, 09:23:42 pm »
+3

Why do Imps cost $2? Why not $0* like all other non-Supply things, or even $2*?

Imp does cost $2*. It's right there in the image.

Ah, just noticed the OP has it; ShiT must just not have it yet? And still, why doesn't it cost $0*?



Shuffle iT does not yet have asterisk-in-cost technology - hopefully soon!
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AJD

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #132 on: October 24, 2017, 10:23:32 pm »
+3

Quote
I dreamt about a Village, which you can never draw dead - and here is Ghost Town. Ghost Town + final drawer (e. g. Smithy) will outclass Village + final drawer in most cases.

I haven't read all the discussion, but someone saying just 2 Ghost Towns is the right number means that something's gone wrong. You want more Ghost Towns than other Villages, not less.

These statements are flatly not true, for the extremely specific reasons I've already mentioned: It's a duration that confers no benefit the turn you play it, meaning it takes twice as many Ghost Towns as it does Villages to play the same number of terminals. Or is playing 3 Smithies suddenly better than playing 6 Smithies? Or, more to the point, 3 Smithies and 3 Goons, or whatever other terminal is important? Spamming Ghost Towns is a trap that will make Village Idiots look like geniuses. (unless there are NO other +actions.)

Okay this is really confusing to read because it looks like:

1. Jeebus says "You want more Ghost Towns than other Villages, not less."
2. JThorne says that is "flatly not true," denying (1).
3. JThorne says "it takes twice as many Ghost Towns as it does Villages to play the same number of terminals," which looks like it's in agreement with (1).

Eventually I puzzled out what the contradiction was—there are two interpretations of point (1):
1a. If your deck contains Ghost Towns and other villages, you want more Ghost Towns than other villages.
1b. If the villages in your deck are Ghost Towns, you want more of them than if the villages in your deck are something else.

JThorne is affirming (1b) and contradicting (1a), but since (1) has both possible meanings, it sounds like JThorne is affirming and denying the same sentence.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2017, 04:22:19 pm by AJD »
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vidicate

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #133 on: October 24, 2017, 10:48:49 pm »
0

Ghost Town is going to be great.



I like how the building they're walking away from looks kind of like something from Dominion. :D
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Jeebus

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #134 on: October 24, 2017, 11:06:28 pm »
0

Eventually I puzzled out what the contradiction was—there are two interpretations of point (1):
1a. If your deck contains Ghost Towns and other villages, you want more Ghost Towns than other villages.
1b. If the villages in your deck are Ghost Towns, you want more of them than if the villages in your deck are something else.

JThorne is affirming (1b) and contradicting (1a), but since (1) has both possible meanings, it sounds like JThomas is affirming and denying the same sentence.

Yes, I was in fact referring to kingdoms with no other villages. Early on somebody was talking about how having too many Ghost Towns could hurt you, and that is not true. If Ghost Town is the only village, you want more of them than you would another village. If you draw your deck, you get more +actions from other villages. But still, the benefit of starting your turn with extra draw (and actions) is pretty big for consistency, so I wouldn't rule out getting more than 2.

Rodel30

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #135 on: October 25, 2017, 01:25:01 am »
+1

Not sure if this has been noted yet, but Devil's Workshop can pair nicely with certain events. I ended up in a game that had Expedition and was able to buy that and use DW to gain a Gold, all for just $3. Other events would work in the same way, providing you a nice bonus for your coin, then rewarding the non-gain of cards with a Gold.
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JThorne

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #136 on: October 25, 2017, 08:36:31 am »
+1

There's a little bit of conflating want with need. You need twice as many GTs in order to play the same number of terminals. Does that make you want them more?

Quote
Early on somebody was talking about how having too many Ghost Towns could hurt you, and that is not true.

Well, I have to admit, I was leaving out an important implication, but I'll state it explicitly now: Opportunity cost. Too many Villages also cannot hurt your deck. However, taking many turns buying nothing but Villages, while it doesn't hurt your deck, does hurt your game, and there's even a name for a player who does that.

You always have to factor in how many of something you're going to need to kick off, and how long it's going to take to get it. Peddler is a great card, but only in kingdoms with +buy where you can pick up two or three of them at a time, or pick them up for free along with your other buys. Getting several cantrips or sifters and then buying Peddlers one at a time is too slow to be useful. So there's the "want" issue again. Sure, you want as many Peddlers as you can get. But you have to get them somehow.

Likewise, GTs may be cheap, but you still have to get them. If you have to buy 6 GTs for an engine that would kick off just fine with 3 Villages, where are those extra 3 gains coming from? It's more money, more buys/gains, and potentially more turns to get them. So "having" too many GTs doesn't hurt, but the process of getting them could.

In fact, I'm willing to bet that's the whole reason for the gain-to-hand mechanic. Perhaps it was originally playtested without that mechanic and found to be too slow and needed some acceleration?
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allanfieldhouse

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #137 on: October 25, 2017, 09:53:25 am »
+2

However, taking many turns buying nothing but Villages, while it doesn't hurt your deck, does hurt your game, and there's even a name for a player who does that.

Can confirm. GT - Big Money is equally effective as Village - Big Money.
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Deadlock39

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #138 on: October 25, 2017, 11:28:13 am »
+2

Well... GT big money has to be just a tiny bit better than regular big money since it could be used as a mini expedition in the late game, which is probably almost never good, but also the best option in a tiny number of scenarios.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2017, 02:40:35 pm by Deadlock39 »
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allanfieldhouse

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #139 on: October 25, 2017, 01:48:13 pm »
0

Well... GT big money has to be just a tiny bit better than regular big money since it could be used as a mini expedition in the late game, which is probably almost never good, but all the best option in a tiny number of scenarios.

That's what I was originally thinking. But those 2-3 extra cards you draw? Yeah, they end up being your other Ghost Towns.
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Mic Qsenoch

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #140 on: October 25, 2017, 02:02:05 pm »
+4

Well... GT big money has to be just a tiny bit better than regular big money since it could be used as a mini expedition in the late game, which is probably almost never good, but all the best option in a tiny number of scenarios.

That's what I was originally thinking. But those 2-3 extra cards you draw? Yeah, they end up being your other Ghost Towns.

It's still a little bit better because you don't pay the penalty until you draw those Ghost Towns and you would use the mini expedition at the end of the game where there's some chance of never doing that. It will be some tiny improvement, but you could sim it up and you would increase the odds of winning with the right buy rules.
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Cave-o-sapien

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #141 on: October 25, 2017, 02:30:33 pm »
0

Well... GT big money has to be just a tiny bit better than regular big money since it could be used as a mini expedition in the late game, which is probably almost never good, but all the best option in a tiny number of scenarios.

It really depends how your Ghost Towns are distributed throughout your deck. If they are all clumped together, you'll get a mini-Tactician effect. If they're spaced out uniformly, they will be very similar to Vanillages.
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Stealth Tomato

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #142 on: October 25, 2017, 02:34:46 pm »
0

I fully stand by my statements.  Go test the Caravan variant for yourself and tell us how it went.

Imagine a Tactician that still stayed out for an extra turn, but got all of its bonuses on the current turn. So…

FastTactician: Action-Duration, $5
Discard your hand. If you discarded any cards, +5 Cards, +1 Action, and +1 Buy.
(This stays in play an extra turn.)

Tell me to my face that that's weaker than Tactician.

Of course that's weaker than Tactician.

Tactician can be very strong in Platinum games with no or limited non-terminal action money. FastTactician is worthless in those games because you're just discarding a four-card hand of treasures in favor of a five-card hand of treasures that you would have anyway without FastTactician taking up extra space.


I don't think so. The easy situation to see how the delayed draw is better is in any draw-your-deck situation. The modified Caravan and a Lab will both draw you the same number of cards each turn. The Caravan+ gives them to you all at the beginning of your turn though, whereas you have to actually find the Labs to get the extra cards. So theoretically you'll draw the same either way, but you're way way more likely to kick off with a 10 card starting hand (assuming an even Caravan+ split).
So you wanna seriously argue that you would buy Caravan over Lab (it is the same difference as between what you label Caravan+ and Caravan) in this situation?
And even if this were the case, Lab would still be on average better than Caravan.

You're gonna fizzle more often with Labs. A five-card hand is more likely to contain no Labs than a seven-card hand is to contain no copies of Caravan+.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2017, 02:59:17 pm by Stealth Tomato »
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LastFootnote

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #143 on: October 25, 2017, 02:47:51 pm »
0

I fully stand by my statements.  Go test the Caravan variant for yourself and tell us how it went.

Imagine a Tactician that still stayed out for an extra turn, but got all of its bonuses on the current turn. So…

FastTactician: Action-Duration, $5
Discard your hand. If you discarded any cards, +5 Cards, +1 Action, and +1 Buy.
(This stays in play an extra turn.)

Tell me to my face that that's weaker than Tactician.

Of course that's weaker than Tactician.

Tactician can be very strong in Platinum games with no or limited non-terminal action money. FastTactician is worthless in those games because you're just discarding a four-card hand of treasures in favor of a five-card hand of treasures that you would have anyway without FastTactician taking up extra space.

That sounds like a really poor use case for Tactician.
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Stealth Tomato

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #144 on: October 25, 2017, 03:09:34 pm »
+1

I fully stand by my statements.  Go test the Caravan variant for yourself and tell us how it went.

Imagine a Tactician that still stayed out for an extra turn, but got all of its bonuses on the current turn. So…

FastTactician: Action-Duration, $5
Discard your hand. If you discarded any cards, +5 Cards, +1 Action, and +1 Buy.
(This stays in play an extra turn.)

Tell me to my face that that's weaker than Tactician.

Of course that's weaker than Tactician.

Tactician can be very strong in Platinum games with no or limited non-terminal action money. FastTactician is worthless in those games because you're just discarding a four-card hand of treasures in favor of a five-card hand of treasures that you would have anyway without FastTactician taking up extra space.

That sounds like a really poor use case for Tactician.

I've been out of the game for a long time, so I went ahead and simmed it. Made it simple: Colony game with Big Money vs. Big Money that buys one Tactician at priority just above Silver. Tactician wins (edit) 75%+. That's a pretty solid edge, and the deck doesn't necessarily play Tactician effectively (possibly discarding a big-money hand it should keep) or make use of other cards that Tactician might strengthen.

Of course, maybe the Tactician is just winning the long slogs, I'm not sure default Big Money in the web simulator is very well optimized for Colonies.

edited because I didn't sim enough games the first time.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2017, 03:28:22 pm by Stealth Tomato »
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LastFootnote

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #145 on: October 25, 2017, 03:50:05 pm »
0

I fully stand by my statements.  Go test the Caravan variant for yourself and tell us how it went.

Imagine a Tactician that still stayed out for an extra turn, but got all of its bonuses on the current turn. So…

FastTactician: Action-Duration, $5
Discard your hand. If you discarded any cards, +5 Cards, +1 Action, and +1 Buy.
(This stays in play an extra turn.)

Tell me to my face that that's weaker than Tactician.

Of course that's weaker than Tactician.

Tactician can be very strong in Platinum games with no or limited non-terminal action money. FastTactician is worthless in those games because you're just discarding a four-card hand of treasures in favor of a five-card hand of treasures that you would have anyway without FastTactician taking up extra space.

That sounds like a really poor use case for Tactician.

I've been out of the game for a long time, so I went ahead and simmed it. Made it simple: Colony game with Big Money vs. Big Money that buys one Tactician at priority just above Silver. Tactician wins (edit) 75%+. That's a pretty solid edge, and the deck doesn't necessarily play Tactician effectively (possibly discarding a big-money hand it should keep) or make use of other cards that Tactician might strengthen.

Of course, maybe the Tactician is just winning the long slogs, I'm not sure default Big Money in the web simulator is very well optimized for Colonies.

edited because I didn't sim enough games the first time.

Oh, I see what you're saying. Yes, um in this very contrived case, where you have no better shot at hitting $11 reliably, Tactician can be good. Because Colony is so much better than Province. But I mean really you have 9 other Kingdom cards, and usually there will be something much better than BM-Tactician.
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josh56

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #146 on: October 25, 2017, 03:50:56 pm »
0

A five-card hand is more likely to contain no Labs than a seven-card hand is to contain no copies of Caravan+.
A seven card hand with two Caravan- (more appproriate label as the card it is worse than Caravan) is as good as Lab is on the current turn. That's not just semantics, in order to get to this seven card hand you gotta play a dead card in the previous turn. I'd rather draw just one net card for the current turn than transfer my resources into a future that might never come. And Caravan being priced at a lower cost than Lab kinda proves that point.

We can go over all kind of exceptional situations (just because you sometimes might want a Curse in your deck, e.g. to ambassador it, doesn't imply that Curses are in general a great part of a deck) in which a delayed effect is better than an immediate effect. But in general the opposite is true, you want your good stuff immediately; be it in Dominion or in real life. In general Lab is better than Caravan and Caravan is better than Caravan-.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2017, 03:54:46 pm by josh56 »
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trivialknot

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #147 on: October 25, 2017, 04:02:46 pm »
+6

Hey instead of arguing over hypothetical Caravan variants, now we can argue over whether The River's Gift is better than The Sea's Gift.  Isn't Nocturne wonderful?
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SCSN

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #148 on: October 25, 2017, 04:16:14 pm »
+4

Imagine a Tactician that still stayed out for an extra turn, but got all of its bonuses on the current turn. So…

FastTactician: Action-Duration, $5
Discard your hand. If you discarded any cards, +5 Cards, +1 Action, and +1 Buy.
(This stays in play an extra turn.)

Tell me to my face that that's weaker than Tactician.

I wouldn't call it weaker, but FastTactician is much closer to Minion than it is to real Tactician and hence a totally different card. Like Minion, it's often good in situations where Tactician isn't and vice versa.

E.g. it's worthless with cards that like a big hand-size like Mint, Forge, Madman, City Quarter, Bank and Fortune; it doesn't combo as well with Outpost; it can't be used for money spikes (whether it's in a slog where you'd happily give up a terrible turn for a decent next one, a Colony game where you want to spike Platinum early or Colony+something late, or engine game where you use it to get an early Forge/Expand or your first KC) and it's much poorer at making weakly trashed engines reliable.
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crj

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #149 on: October 26, 2017, 09:50:57 am »
0

I'd agree from my own experience that where Tactician shines (other than double-Tac and similar tricks) is in trading one average turn for one bad turn and one good.

There are lots of circumstances in which you want to reach for something expensive as early as possible. I've used an early Tactician to buy a Province for my Tournament, a King's Court, an Inheritance, a Platinum...

Tactician is also really good at making things collide. Province and Tournament, again. Treasure Maps. Trashers and their trash. The synergy with Conspirator is immense.

FastTactician no doubt would also have its strengths, but it's not obvious to me that they'd compensate fully for its weaknesses.
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