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Author Topic: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town  (Read 11709 times)

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BBL

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #25 on: October 23, 2017, 06:22:46 am »
0

Interesting that Imp costs 2 even though it isn't in the supply.

Following this quote from the preview I assume that there is at least one card which summons a Spirit of a cost to x.:

Quote
You can't buy an Imp, you can just get one from Devil's Workshop, or maybe some other ways.

In addition, costs are important for attacks, i.e. Knights or Swindler.
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Qvist

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #26 on: October 23, 2017, 06:27:25 am »
+2

I sill do not quite understand Raider: I play it during Night phase. My opponents need to discard all cards that I played before (during Day) and all cards I played during night. So if I played [Village, Smithy Mountebank, Copper, Gold] before the night phase and then I play Raider and Devil's Workshop - how is it determined which cards my opponents need to discard? He probably has a 5 card hand at that time, so he only needs to discard 1 card, right?

He discards one of Village, Smithy, Mountebank, Copper, Cold, Raider, Devil's Workshop.
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markusin

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #27 on: October 23, 2017, 06:51:53 am »
+1

So that's why my guess for "Imp" as a card name failed.

As mentioned before, the night cards can't be drawn dead.

Ghost town, when you redraw it after gaining it, is a shelter that becomes a Lost City next turn (ignoring the -1 in cycling compared to Lost City). Having a couple of those seems good anyway, but you can gain them at moments where you really want the duration effect next turn in particular.

Raider is kinda like Gold with an attack, except it can miss the shuffle more and applies next turn, so mid-turn gains of Raider aren't as great if you need the money now.

Devil's Workshop has the ability to gain Gold in a way that reminds me of Quest. The first few Imps are nice, but then they start getting in the way, and you can't choose to gain a $4 instead of you gained 2+ cards in the turn. Sadly, the night cards cannot be played with Summon. The first few Imps are nice, but then they start getting in the way, and you can't choose to gain a $4 instead of you gained 2+ cards in the turn. You can choose not to play the Devil's Workshop at least, and it's done good work for you if you gained 3-4 Imps with it.

If Imp is not an Action Supply pile, then an Adventures token cannot be moved to its pile, so that's sad too.
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Hockey Mask

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #28 on: October 23, 2017, 07:09:08 am »
0

DX: is the night phase something you have had in mind for awhile now or is it something newer?
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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #29 on: October 23, 2017, 07:17:06 am »
+2

Raider is kinda like Gold with an attack, except it can miss the shuffle more and applies next turn, so mid-turn gains of Raider aren't as great if you need the money now.

And buy phase gains of Raider aren't as great if you need the money next turn.
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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #30 on: October 23, 2017, 07:59:43 am »
0

I thought Ghost Village looked really bad, then I realized it doesn't cost an action to play. Nice.
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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #31 on: October 23, 2017, 08:22:09 am »
0

I love love love the way Night cards look, especially the Durations!

Don't go into the Haunted Woods at night...

These cards really need skill. Surprised when finding Raider has no connection with Raid.

They're both expansion-specific non-terminal handsize attacks that are played after your action phase.

Oops, that's Relic. Well, still most of that stands.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2017, 08:31:42 am by J Reggie »
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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #32 on: October 23, 2017, 08:43:37 am »
+2

I skimmed this thread and couldnít find the answer, though Iím sure itís there and Iím not awake yet. Do Night cards take up Actions, or are all of them effectively non-terminal?
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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #33 on: October 23, 2017, 08:46:55 am »
+3

Quote
I skimmed this thread and couldnít find the answer, though Iím sure itís there and Iím not awake yet. Do Night cards take up Actions, or are all of them effectively non-terminal?

Just the very first post...

Quote
Night is a new phase. It comes after the Buy phase, and in it you can play any number of Night cards.
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aku_chi

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #34 on: October 23, 2017, 08:51:42 am »
0

I like what's being done with the Night Phase.  Cool stuff!

It looks like cards that care about specific types (e.g. Ironmonger, Ironworks) aren't as good with Night cards, but Courtier will love the Night cards with multiple types, because they'll stay in hand and don't require an action to play.

Devil's Workshop and Imp are weird, and I'm not going to even try to evaluate them before playing with them some.

Raider is slow non-terminal money.  Setting up a Raider each turn will usually better than Gold, if you can tolerate the turn delay.  Nice art.

I think Ghost Town compares reasonably with Coin of the Realm: you trade a coin up front and an action down the road for a card at the beginning of your next turn.  And then: Coin of the Realm can be saved, and Ghost Town has the strong on-gain ability.  I expect to use Ghost Town a bunch for reliability; don't sleep on it.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2017, 09:00:58 am by aku_chi »
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brokoli

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #35 on: October 23, 2017, 09:06:49 am »
0

Very exciting previews !
Devil's workshop seems weird : all 3 effects have very different uses, and the $4 gaining would be most of the time the worst of the 3, which means you either want to play a lot of action cards or none. And imp has no obvious mechanical link with it.
I'm not very fond of those cards with a lot of different unrelated abilities, like that one or travelers, hermit, etc. It's hard to memorize instantly and I think it makes the game less fluid. Of all 4 new cards, that's my only disappointment. But I can change my mind by playing, it already happened more than once  :D
Raider's attack is very interesting, though it can be very brutal and luck-dependant sometimes.
I love how ghost town is another village that exploit the expansion's new mechanism. I have absolutely no idea of how powerful it could be. But it can mitigate the risk of early terminal collision.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2017, 09:11:35 am by brokoli »
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Eran of Arcadia

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #36 on: October 23, 2017, 09:41:06 am »
0

I have not found Night to be overly confusing for casual players. It's as easy as A B N C!

Don't forget the Start of the turn, for reserve cards and the like.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #37 on: October 23, 2017, 09:45:39 am »
+1

I have not found Night to be overly confusing for casual players. It's as easy as A B N C!

Don't forget the Start of the turn, for reserve cards and the like.

That's within the Action phase! It matters for stuff like Summoning a Crown (after cost reduction).
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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #38 on: October 23, 2017, 09:48:39 am »
+10

I love that Devil's Workshop depends on how idle you were during your turn.
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josh56

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #39 on: October 23, 2017, 09:59:51 am »
+1

Devil's Workshop seems pretty weak actually, I mean it's a Workshop without mid-turn gain.
It is non-terminal so it is more similar to Ironworks. As you pointed out a bit worse as you don't gain the card mid-turn but also a bit stronger as you can gain Gold or a Lab variant.
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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #40 on: October 23, 2017, 10:06:07 am »
0

Ghost Town is interesting... mechanic-wise, it should be called Fishing Villa. It has the substantial advantage of drawing a card the next turn, but that comes at the cost of no economy (which is fine) and no Village effect the turn you play it (more problematic). I guess overall slightly weaker, but of course Fishing Village is super good, so this is probably still quite good.

I'm surprised you're the only one so far to mention Fishing Village. This is exactly how you should think of this - it's slightly weaker on the current turn (since it doesn't village you), but it's much more powerful on the following turn. Starting a hand with six cards is powerful. Starting your next hand with six cards on the hand after you buy it is very powerful.

It doesn't improve your average cards in hand, but it fizzles itself in your current hand in order to add to your next hand, and one should never forget that unbalancing your hand strengths is VERY powerful.

Then again, maybe this is basically Haven with a Village effect and I should chill out a bit. (Credit to Minotaur, who mentioned this but I didn't notice on my first read.)
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faust

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #41 on: October 23, 2017, 10:07:07 am »
0

Devil's Workshop seems pretty weak actually, I mean it's a Workshop without mid-turn gain.
It is non-terminal so it is more similar to Ironworks. As you pointed out a bit worse as you don't gain the card mid-turn but also a bit stronger as you can gain Gold or a Lab variant.
Workshop can also gain Lab variants: Advisor, Secret Passage, Herald etc. One other problem is that once you start doing good stuff with your deck, chances are you cannot gain anything but a Lab variant. Talisman is also non-terminal and it's really most similar to that.
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josh56

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #42 on: October 23, 2017, 10:17:55 am »
0

Devil's Workshop seems pretty weak actually, I mean it's a Workshop without mid-turn gain.
It is non-terminal so it is more similar to Ironworks. As you pointed out a bit worse as you don't gain the card mid-turn but also a bit stronger as you can gain Gold or a Lab variant.
Workshop can also gain Lab variants: Advisor, Secret Passage, Herald etc. One other problem is that once you start doing good stuff with your deck, chances are you cannot gain anything but a Lab variant. Talisman is also non-terminal and it's really most similar to that.
Well, if it were better than Ironworks it would be dubious for a price of 4. I like the Cornucopia-esque Imp, it is trickier to play than mass-cards like Advisor and so on (and not being able to play duplicates is not such a big deal if you play with 3+ players).
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josh56

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #43 on: October 23, 2017, 10:25:42 am »
0

Ghost Town is interesting... mechanic-wise, it should be called Fishing Villa. It has the substantial advantage of drawing a card the next turn, but that comes at the cost of no economy (which is fine) and no Village effect the turn you play it (more problematic). I guess overall slightly weaker, but of course Fishing Village is super good, so this is probably still quite good.

I'm surprised you're the only one so far to mention Fishing Village. This is exactly how you should think of this
I don't see the similarities. Fishing Village is degenerate, it doesn't draw.

When you gain Ghost Town you get a Lost City next turn, otherwise it is fairly similar to a delayed village. It is a bit weaker as it is not a cantrip this turn (i.e. you'd usually rather have +1 Card +1 Action; at the start of your next turn: +1 Action than +1 Action; at the start of your next turn: +1 Card +1 Action ) and a bit stronger as you can play it after having drawn it and being out of Actions.
This might have been inspired by Sauna-Avanto, a card combo which also enables you to do what you normally can't: first play the terminal draw and then the village.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2017, 10:28:05 am by josh56 »
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dmet

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #44 on: October 23, 2017, 10:26:07 am »
0

Some thoughts:

Night is going to completely change the opening. A phase without limited actions (I know that isn't quite right. Night cards aren't actions, but close enough.) means you don't have to worry about collision. It's going to take some adjustment to not count spare action slots wrt night cards.

Ghost Town seems great for reliability, but would struggle to be the only draw for a deck, kind of like using Hireling as your only draw. But play two of those at the end of each turn and start turns with 7 cards and 3 actions.

Raider seems like it will be selectively brutal. Those unreliable village smithy engines with no trashing just got much harder. Raid a village every turn and watch your opponent slowly start to contemplate murder as they keep having dud turns.

A couple of the comments here seem to underrate Imp I think. An almost-Lab that you can get with a gainer is super awesome. You need some variety to pull it off, but Menagerie decks work, so I imagine these will too. On the other hand, you can't chain imps with imps. So maybe they will just work as support, not as the main draw for a deck.
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CG19

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #45 on: October 23, 2017, 10:35:07 am »
0

Previews time, excellent!!

Devil's Workshop + Scheme seems like a decent combo. Gain Schemes with DW, then Scheme Imps and action cards you play for the next turn.

Raider seems like it's really good for mirrors where you're first player.

Ghost Town looks really good for stacking your actions and having Tactician-like hands. But without the +Buy. But with more actions!

Thanks for the preview, Donald!
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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #46 on: October 23, 2017, 10:49:17 am »
+1

These cards are brilliant, and I love the art too, especially Ghost Town.

Raider looks like it hurts the most if you have a deck with a lot of green/purple, because you usually can't discard those.  Otherwise, it doesn't seem to hurt too much.

Ghost Town is different from either CoTR or Fishing Village, because it only gives one extra action every two turns.  When Ghost Town is the only +action, it may be difficult to build an engine.
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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #47 on: October 23, 2017, 10:58:54 am »
+6

Raider kinda makes me wonder why it's not a Treasure? Except for theme of course. At this point I think that Night cards are mostly a new mechanic in order to not confuse casual players by having cards with Treasure type that don't provide money. All of what we've seen here could easily be implemented using existing mechanics for Treasure cards.

It's true! These Night cards could have instead been awful, wordy messes filled with tracking issues. Boy howdy.
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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #48 on: October 23, 2017, 11:08:15 am »
0

Devil's Workshop is already giving me unpleasant flashbacks to Treasure Hunter and truly not remembering how many cards I'd gained on my previous turn, but I guess 0-2 isn't much of a range and I have more incentive to keep track of the number if it's for my benefit, not my opponent's.
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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #49 on: October 23, 2017, 11:08:58 am »
+5

Raider kinda makes me wonder why it's not a Treasure? Except for theme of course. At this point I think that Night cards are mostly a new mechanic in order to not confuse casual players by having cards with Treasure type that don't provide money. All of what we've seen here could easily be implemented using existing mechanics for Treasure cards.

It's true! These Night cards could have instead been awful, wordy messes filled with tracking issues. Boy howdy.
Wow. No need to get touchy. It wasn't meant as criticism.
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Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.
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