Dominion Strategy Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Pages: 1 ... 5 6 [7] 8 9  All

Author Topic: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town  (Read 15408 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

allanfieldhouse

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 168
  • Respect: +246
    • View Profile
Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #150 on: October 26, 2017, 11:35:42 am »
+2

So I think we mostly all agree that FastTac is simply a different card and not a good way of evaluating this concept. Also, people want to discuss the new cards in these threads, not random variants of old cards.

So I made a new thread for a "delayed effect" conversation: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=17789.0
Logged

ThetaSigma12

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1476
  • Shuffle iT Username: ThetaSigma12
  • Respect: +1481
    • View Profile
Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #151 on: October 26, 2017, 12:18:52 pm »
+3

It's always the same dream. I'm working in a factory, making giant marshmallows. When I wake up, I have an extra pillow.

"Those aren't pillows!"
Logged
If you have a fan card you want to be created, just post about it here! I'd love to take a look at it.

allanfieldhouse

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 168
  • Respect: +246
    • View Profile
Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #152 on: October 26, 2017, 02:47:46 pm »
+1

I've been thinking about Ghost Town a lot, and there's one aspect I've been missing so far. The bonus cards next turn don't actually help you at all. I mean, obviously drawing cards is a good thing, but on average, the extra card you're going to be drawing is literally just another one of your Ghost Towns. Assuming an average distribution of cards, you're always going to end up with a starting hand of some Ghost Towns along with the same 5 card hand you would have had if you never bought a GT in the first place. (I'm ignoring the on-buy bonus for all this.) I've been thinking of a larger starting hand as automatically increasing reliability, but since the extra GTs you draw don't help you on that turn, the larger starting handsize doesn't actually make your deck more reliable at all.

The extra action, on the other hand, is where the value of this card comes from. It's great to start off every turn of a terminal-draw engine knowing that you will be able to play your actions even if you don't draw that Village initially.

So yeah, pick up two most games to add action reliability and compliment your other villages (which are your real source of +actions). Or buy them all if it's the only village and you want to play a bunch of terminals.

Edit: where "a bunch" apparently means a maximum of 5 per turn. :)
« Last Edit: October 26, 2017, 04:26:33 pm by allanfieldhouse »
Logged

JThorne

  • Apprentice
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 283
  • Respect: +550
    • View Profile
Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #153 on: October 26, 2017, 04:02:33 pm »
0

Quote
The bonus cards next turn don't actually help you at all...pick up two most games to add action reliability and compliment your other villages...Or buy them all if it's the only village and you want to play a bunch of terminals.

Thank you! Yes, that's what I've been saying. "A bunch" seems optimistic, but sure.

Many engines are forgiving in the action department because they've got some Stables/Labs/Governors/Minions/Wharves, but if you're relying on drawing deck with terminal draw-3 cards (which are quite numerous) beware the Ghost Town trap. Many great payload cards are terminals; if you're hoping to play a bunch of terminal draw and still have actions for payload, you could be in trouble. I do like the idea of putting a couple in a non-terminal engine, though, so I can stick a couple of terminals last, like Militia and Catapult or something.
Logged

matste

  • Alchemist
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 35
  • Respect: +54
    • View Profile
Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #154 on: October 27, 2017, 02:01:04 pm »
+8

I would like to point out that Imp is not strictly worse than Laboratory (barring the standard exceptions)

Here’s an edge case:
- You have one action left
- Your hand: Throne room, Develop, Silver, ?
- You don’t have any other card
- There’s Militia in the kingdom
- Your goal is to play a Militia this turn
With an Imp as ?, you can do this, with Labs it’s impossible.
Logged

pacovf

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3232
  • Multiediting poster
  • Respect: +3548
    • View Profile
Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #155 on: October 27, 2017, 02:56:42 pm »
0

That's only relevant when Throne/Golem variants are around, but sure.
Logged
pacovf has a neopets account.  It has 999 hours logged.  All his neopets are named "Jessica".  I guess that must be his ex.

matste

  • Alchemist
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 35
  • Respect: +54
    • View Profile
Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #156 on: October 27, 2017, 04:15:37 pm »
+1

Is Prince a Throne variant?

To generalize my edge case, the advantage of Imp vs Labs is that it allows you to insert an action  play in situations where you would normaly had to resolve a chain of effects before being allowed to play the action.

A common chain of mandatory effects happens „at the beginning of a turn”. It involves durations and similar. We can create an example showing that it might be advantageous to Prince an Imp instead of a Labs.
Logged

pacovf

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3232
  • Multiediting poster
  • Respect: +3548
    • View Profile
Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #157 on: October 27, 2017, 04:18:16 pm »
0

Is Prince a Throne variant?

To generalize my edge case, the advantage of Imp vs Labs is that it allows you to insert an action  play in situations where you would normaly had to resolve a chain of effects before being allowed to play the action.

A common chain of mandatory effects happens „at the beginning of a turn”. It involves durations and similar. We can create an example showing that it might be advantageous to Prince an Imp instead of a Labs.

Like the fact that Imp costs less than 5$ :p

But yeah, I got your point.
Logged
pacovf has a neopets account.  It has 999 hours logged.  All his neopets are named "Jessica".  I guess that must be his ex.

markusin

  • Cartographer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3467
  • Shuffle iT Username: markusin
  • I also switched from Starcraft
  • Respect: +2058
    • View Profile
Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #158 on: October 27, 2017, 04:20:37 pm »
+2

Is Prince a Throne variant?

To generalize my edge case, the advantage of Imp vs Labs is that it allows you to insert an action  play in situations where you would normaly had to resolve a chain of effects before being allowed to play the action.

A common chain of mandatory effects happens „at the beginning of a turn”. It involves durations and similar. We can create an example showing that it might be advantageous to Prince an Imp instead of a Labs.

It's a stretch, but I suppose this can be the case. Say, you have Princed Imp play Workshop before your Caravans/Wharves draw and cause a reshuffle.

That still makes it an edge case though. Generally, Lab is going to be better except for things that care about cost e.g. Will-o-Wisp can draw Imp but not Lab.
Logged

Deadlock39

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1716
  • Respect: +1730
    • View Profile
Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #159 on: October 27, 2017, 04:29:39 pm »
+1

Is Imp a throne variant?

Commodore Chuckles

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 173
  • Shuffle iT Username: Commodore Chuckles
  • Respect: +357
    • View Profile
Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #160 on: October 27, 2017, 06:19:06 pm »
0

Ghost Town seems terrible to me. The delay in the effect is almost always going to be worse than just a Vanillage, and the on-gain bonus isn't nearly enough to make up for it. Honestly, I think this would be balanced at $2. Can someone tell me why this is $3? What am I missing here?
Logged

Chappy7

  • Conspirator
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 204
  • Shuffle iT Username: Chappy7
  • Respect: +257
    • View Profile
Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #161 on: October 27, 2017, 06:20:58 pm »
+3

Is Imp a throne variant?

Does it matter?
Logged

JW

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 652
  • Shuffle iT Username: JW
  • Respect: +1128
    • View Profile
Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #162 on: October 27, 2017, 06:23:35 pm »
+1

Ghost Town seems terrible to me. The delay in the effect is almost always going to be worse than just a Vanillage, and the on-gain bonus isn't nearly enough to make up for it. Honestly, I think this would be balanced at $2. Can someone tell me why this is $3? What am I missing here?

Getting extra actions and cards at the start of your turn is the best time to get them, because it ensures that your deck can "kick off."

I've been thinking about Ghost Town a lot, and there's one aspect I've been missing so far. The bonus cards next turn don't actually help you at all. I mean, obviously drawing cards is a good thing, but on average, the extra card you're going to be drawing is literally just another one of your Ghost Towns. Assuming an average distribution of cards, you're always going to end up with a starting hand of some Ghost Towns along with the same 5 card hand you would have had if you never bought a GT in the first place.

Suppose you have a Ghost Town effect from the previous turn and another Ghost Town remaining in your (newly shuffled) deck of N cards. Now you start with 6 cards in hand and there's a 6/N chance that one of your cards is a Ghost Town. So as long as your deck is more than 6 cards, you start with an average of more than 5 non-Ghost Town cards in hand.
Logged

Deadlock39

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1716
  • Respect: +1730
    • View Profile
Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #163 on: October 28, 2017, 09:53:13 am »
0

Gazbag

  • Apprentice
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 251
  • Respect: +450
    • View Profile
Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #164 on: October 28, 2017, 10:38:24 am »
0

Is Prince a Throne variant?

To generalize my edge case, the advantage of Imp vs Labs is that it allows you to insert an action  play in situations where you would normaly had to resolve a chain of effects before being allowed to play the action.

A common chain of mandatory effects happens „at the beginning of a turn”. It involves durations and similar. We can create an example showing that it might be advantageous to Prince an Imp instead of a Labs.
It's a stretch, but I suppose this can be the case. Say, you have Princed Imp play Workshop before your Caravans/Wharves draw and cause a reshuffle.

That still makes it an edge case though. Generally, Lab is going to be better except for things that care about cost e.g. Will-o-Wisp can draw Imp but not Lab.

Well a similar situation can arise with Ghosted cards and half of the games that Imp is available Ghost is too, same with Will-O'-Wisp and the cost thing so it might come up a little more often then you'd expect. You'll want Labs to go with your Imps anyway though so it doesn't really matter much in an actual game!
Logged

Commodore Chuckles

  • Moneylender
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 173
  • Shuffle iT Username: Commodore Chuckles
  • Respect: +357
    • View Profile
Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #165 on: October 28, 2017, 11:24:23 am »
0

From the way I've been using the term, a "throne variant" is anything that tells you to/lets you play another card. So yes, Ghost and Imp are both throne variants.
Logged

Jeebus

  • Saboteur
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1072
  • Shuffle iT Username: jeebus
  • Respect: +806
    • View Profile
Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #166 on: October 28, 2017, 02:09:31 pm »
+1

To me a Throne Room variant is a card that lets you play another card twice or more (immediately). The significance of this is that a card will end up having been played twice (or more) even though there is just one copy of it in play. Cue the old rule about which abilities on the card happen on-play and which don't (Goons is the classic example).

The other significance is that these cards stay in play along with a Duration they played.

Neither of these two things apply to Prince, Golem, Herald, etc...

Throne Room variants are therefore: Throne Room, King’s Court, Counterfeit, Procession, Disciple, Royal Carriage, Crown and Ghost.

Of course I'm looking at this from a rules perspective. From a strategy perspective, I see the need for a term for cards that let you play other cards in general. I really don't think that term should be "Throne Room variant" though, to avoid confusion.

Awaclus

  • Adventurer
  • ******
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10278
  • Shuffle iT Username: Awaclus
  • (´。• ω •。`)
  • Respect: +10573
    • View Profile
Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #167 on: October 28, 2017, 02:13:17 pm »
0

To me a Throne Room variant is a card that lets you play another card twice or more (immediately). The significance of this is that a card will end up having been played twice (or more) even though there is just one copy of it in play. Cue the old rule about which abilities on the card happen on-play and which don't (Goons is the classic example).

The other significance is that these cards stay in play along with a Duration they played.

Neither of these two things apply to Prince, Golem, Herald, etc...

Throne Room variants are therefore: Throne Room, King’s Court, Counterfeit, Procession, Disciple, Royal Carriage, Crown and Ghost.

Of course I'm looking at this from a rules perspective. From a strategy perspective, I see the need for a term for cards that let you play other cards in general. I really don't think that term should be "Throne Room variant" though, to avoid confusion.

There is already a term for cards that let you play other cards, it's "forced". For example, King's Court is a forced village. Imp is a forced non-terminal. I don't think anyone other than Elanchana has ever used it though, which might be because there isn't actually a need for that term.
Logged
Bomb, Cannon, and many of the Gunpowder cards can strongly effect gameplay, particularly in a destructive way

The Twitch channel where I stream DominionThe YouTube channel where I make musicDownload my band's albums for free

Cave-o-sapien

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 694
  • Respect: +1130
    • View Profile
Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #168 on: October 30, 2017, 05:58:45 pm »
0

If I use Devil's Workshop during a Possessed turn, will I only ever get Gold?
Logged

Donald X.

  • Board Moderator
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4670
  • Respect: +18857
    • View Profile
Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #169 on: October 30, 2017, 06:01:22 pm »
+2

If I use Devil's Workshop during a Possessed turn, will I only ever get Gold?
If you use Devil's Workshop while possessed, you won't get anything. You're possessed!

If you make another player use Devil's Workshop while possessing them, they have not gained any cards this turn, so they would gain a Gold, except then you gain it.
Logged

Cave-o-sapien

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 694
  • Respect: +1130
    • View Profile
Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #170 on: October 30, 2017, 06:17:35 pm »
0

If I use Devil's Workshop during a Possessed turn, will I only ever get Gold?
If you use Devil's Workshop while possessed, you won't get anything. You're possessed!

If you make another player use Devil's Workshop while possessing them, they have not gained any cards this turn, so they would gain a Gold, except then you gain it.

Yes, that's what i meant. Thank you!

I was looking for a way to trigger the 1-gain effect (up to 4-cost card) on DW multiple times on a turn to successfully gain multiple cards, but it seems like it's impossible (currently).
Logged

Deadlock39

  • Torturer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1716
  • Respect: +1730
    • View Profile
Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #171 on: October 30, 2017, 06:47:42 pm »
0

Gain one thing, then for each subsequent gain reveal Trader with an empty Silver pile.

Cave-o-sapien

  • Minion
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 694
  • Respect: +1130
    • View Profile
Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #172 on: October 30, 2017, 06:50:37 pm »
0

Gain one thing, then for each subsequent gain reveal Trader with an empty Silver pile.

Right. That triggers the second effect, but doesn't successfully gain you a card.
Logged

JThorne

  • Apprentice
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 283
  • Respect: +550
    • View Profile
Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #173 on: November 06, 2017, 09:51:33 am »
+1

Quote
Ghost Town seems like an ok Village, but I'd rather have Coin of the Realm.

Definitely. It takes twice as many Ghost Towns as Villages to play the same number of terminals. It would take 8 Ghost Towns to play 5 terminals every turn. Yuck. It only takes 4 Villages or 4 Coins of the Realm to do the same thing, and Coins have the advantage of being optional.

I predict Ghost town will really shine in kingdoms with plenty of extra terminal space, such as cantrip engines like Conspirator or Peddler, engine cards that grant actions like Stables, Crossroads, (Lost) City, etc., and will allow some extra terminal payload cards, along with granting a bit more consistency and early-game acceleration from the on-buy effect. But if you're planning on playing gobs of Torturers or Wild Hunts or Catacombs or any of the other star draw-3 cards, if Ghost Town is the only source of +Action that's going to be a significant limiting factor. It would sure make Goons or Bridge payloads sad, as well.
Logged

Gherald

  • Tactician
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 430
  • Awe: +35
  • Respect: +809
    • View Profile
Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #174 on: November 07, 2017, 03:31:27 am »
0

I predict Ghost town will really shine in kingdoms with plenty of extra terminal space, such as cantrip engines like Conspirator or Peddler
No, those cards most definitely prefer a village with Type: Action.

The main use of Ghost Village has already been discussed, having 2 around makes it less likely for future hands to stall. This effect is similar to Caravan, Fishing Village, Enchantress -- cards we already understand.
Logged
thank you for participating in this enrichment center activity
Pages: 1 ... 5 6 [7] 8 9  All
 

Page created in 0.124 seconds with 20 queries.