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Author Topic: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town  (Read 11447 times)

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Donald X.

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Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« on: October 23, 2017, 03:01:26 am »
+58

It's always the same dream. I'm working in a factory, making giant marshmallows. When I wake up, I have an extra pillow. And also it's time to post a Dominion preview. Or am I still dreaming? Well I'll just get the preview posted, and worry about that later.

Nocturne has five themes, and there are five weekdays, so that's all going to work out neatly. Today: Night.

Night is a new phase. It comes after the Buy phase, and in it you can play any number of Night cards. That's all there is to it. We get right to the point here in Dominion-land.



One trick Night cards can do is, they can care about what happened during the turn. Devil's Workshop is an example: it cares how many cards you gained this turn. You can skip buying stuff to get a Gold from it; you can try to get multiple cards so that Devil's Workshop gets you an Imp.

Nocturne is a 500-card set. There are 33 kingdom cards, which take a lot of space, but still leave space for a bunch of other things. One of those things is Imp. It's a nifty Lab variant that only lets you play an Action you don't have in play. However diverse your deck is puts a limit on how many Imps you want. It says "Spirit" on the bottom and well we will figure out what that's there for later. You can't buy an Imp, you can just get one from Devil's Workshop, or maybe some other ways.



Raider also cares about your turn. Anything you have in play becomes fair game for your opponents to discard. Early on you just want to make sure you hit something; later you may try to make Raider hit harder by say not playing that Copper you drew. Raider is a Duration card and well that is a thing about Night cards; some of the game's resources only make sense during the day part of the turn, and Duration lets Night cards provide those resources. Nocturne didn't start out planning to have a Duration card theme but there are several of them.



Ghost Town does another trick: it goes straight to your hand. Since the Buy phase is ahead of the Night phase, you can buy it and play it the same turn. There are several of these. Do you think you'll need a village next turn? Here you go.

LastFootnote will be posting additional one-card previews at forum.dominionstrategy.com each day; they will show up in the morning, USA time.

Finally, online Dominion (https://dominion.games/) will have the preview cards (both the ones I preview and the ones LastFootnote does), at around 6 pm UTC each day. To play with them, pick the special matchmaking option that mentions Nocturne. You will get eight random cards plus two of the four previewed cards (my three and LF's one); later in the week you will get six random cards plus four previewed cards (two from that day, two from earlier days). This will last through the weekend and then disappear; the full set will show up online when the physical set hits stores.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2017, 03:05:23 pm by Donald X. »
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #1 on: October 23, 2017, 03:11:59 am »
+3

Impressive! These cards exceed my expectations. But, man, Raider, wow! That card seems very, very scary.

NVM, I misread Raider. It only discards hands with 5 or more. I missed the 5 or more part.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2017, 03:25:46 am by Beyond Awesome »
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CPiGuy

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2017, 03:16:08 am »
0

Wow, these cards are really cool!

Raider seems like it could be incredibly brutal, though, especially in games with dominant strategies (like a Rebuild game, or one in which both players buy lots of Labs).

Can your opponent discard a Raider to your Raider?
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crlundy

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2017, 03:16:51 am »
+6

Previews posted before morning (USA time)!? How fitting.
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Donald X.

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2017, 03:19:08 am »
+7

Can your opponent discard a Raider to your Raider?
Yes, yours is in play at that point.
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Seprix

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2017, 03:23:12 am »
+2

Raider seems more like a payload card that might happen to really hurt the opponent sometimes but usually not so much.

Devil's Workshop is flexible, I like it a lot. Imp is incredibly good. Holy cow.

Ghost Town is fantastic.
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Beyond Awesome

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2017, 03:27:38 am »
+1

Ghost Town is going to be great.

Devil's Workshop also looks solid. Imp is a good draw card.

I like how we have a gold expansion symbol.
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Seprix

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #7 on: October 23, 2017, 04:03:21 am »
+2

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pregnantbird

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #8 on: October 23, 2017, 04:10:38 am »
+1

Those cards look awesome!!! Cant wait till later when they are playable...

Forager + Devils Workshop opening... Mmmmmh sounds good! Trashing, gaining gold, gaining 4 coin cards, having buys, gaining imps sounds just nice :) and that all without the fear of crashing action cards o.O
« Last Edit: October 23, 2017, 04:12:32 am by pregnantbird »
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faust

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #9 on: October 23, 2017, 04:16:12 am »
+3

Devil's Workshop seems pretty weak actually, I mean it's a Workshop without mid-turn gain. It's kinda like Talisman, but without providing economy. And Imp isn't a super strong card, it could probably work out as a normal $4. I guess it's nice if Imp is the only good draw, but not much else. Also, notice how you cannot even play multiple Devil's Workshops a turn for multiple Golds. On the other hand, opening this +  trasher seems rather decent, since both collision and non-collision scenarios will work out in your advantage.

Raider kinda makes me wonder why it's not a Treasure? Except for theme of course. At this point I think that Night cards are mostly a new mechanic in order to not confuse casual players by having cards with Treasure type that don't provide money. All of what we've seen here could easily be implemented using existing mechanics for Treasure cards.

Ghost Town is interesting... mechanic-wise, it should be called Fishing Villa. It has the substantial advantage of drawing a card the next turn, but that comes at the cost of no economy (which is fine) and no Village effect the turn you play it (more problematic). I guess overall slightly weaker, but of course Fishing Village is super good, so this is probably still quite good.
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Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

faust

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #10 on: October 23, 2017, 04:18:47 am »
0

By the way, how many Imps are there? I guess 10 as usual?
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Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

Titandrake

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #11 on: October 23, 2017, 04:21:24 am »
+3

Guesses that will probably be wrong:

* Devil's Workshop is weird but will be pretty good - a card you usually want. It will be easy to gain too many Imps if you aren't careful, forcing different names is actually a pretty big restriction. But money decks will love that Devil's Workshop always gains a Silver or Gold, and that you can never draw it dead. And engine decks will like that it starts by gaining actions that cost < $4, then gains Imps later on.
* You will basically always buy Raider over Gold. If you can get away with playing fewer Treasures, your Raiders become more powerful, and delayed money is pretty good. If you do buy Gold, it's only after the first few Raiders.
* Ghost Town will be like Villa - you don't want a lot in your deck but sometimes you'll get the effect anyways. (Edit: actually, changed my mind: this seems pretty good early on because you get to play it immediately, and although it's clunky the turn you play it, it should help with consistency. I think you still don't want a lot of them, but this could be a common buy to make over Silver.)

It's worth emphasizing that you can play any number of Night cards and they don't take an action - I missed that the first time and it changes how they play by a lot.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2017, 04:27:43 am by Titandrake »
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Ethan

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #12 on: October 23, 2017, 04:30:38 am »
+1

These cards really need skill. Surprised when finding Raider has no connection with Raid.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2017, 04:34:12 am by Ethan »
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Gazbag

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #13 on: October 23, 2017, 04:34:43 am »
+2

Interesting that Imp costs 2 even though it isn't in the supply.
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faust

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #14 on: October 23, 2017, 04:37:23 am »
+2

Interesting that Imp costs 2 even though it isn't in the supply.
This is the same with Travellers, though there the cost is directly tied to their function. I wonder if the Spirit thing requires Imp to have non-zero cost.
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Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

SevenSpirits

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #15 on: October 23, 2017, 04:43:28 am »
+8

Raider kinda makes me wonder why it's not a Treasure? Except for theme of course.

There's a pretty obvious difference - if it were a treasure, you could play it before you play your other treasures (e.g. copper) and force the discard of a better card. Also, theme is a real thing.

Quote
At this point I think that Night cards are mostly a new mechanic in order to not confuse casual players by having cards with Treasure type that don't provide money. All of what we've seen here could easily be implemented using existing mechanics for Treasure cards.

Devil's Workshop obviously doesn't work as a treasure either - it has to be played after your buys. Similarly, Ghost Town doesn't work because you'd be unable to play it the same turn you buy it. I don't see an elegant way to do these concepts without the Night type.

Overall I find the idea of Night cards being for casual players hilarious. The last few Dominion expansions have been manna from heaven for hardcore players, and probably way too much for casual fans. This one looks to be the same.
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SevenSpirits

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #16 on: October 23, 2017, 04:46:21 am »
+1

I specifically find it interesting that if you open $4/Ghost Town, you'll have a 6 card hand t3 and a 5 card hand t4, guaranteeing you see the $4 card in one of those turns. Likely weak (since Ghost Town is not very exciting in your deck at that point) but perhaps worthwhile if your other buy is strong enough.
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Donald X.

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #17 on: October 23, 2017, 04:48:34 am »
+18

By the way, how many Imps are there? I guess 10 as usual?
There are 13.
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faust

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #18 on: October 23, 2017, 04:54:22 am »
0

Quote
At this point I think that Night cards are mostly a new mechanic in order to not confuse casual players by having cards with Treasure type that don't provide money. All of what we've seen here could easily be implemented using existing mechanics for Treasure cards.

Devil's Workshop obviously doesn't work as a treasure either - it has to be played after your buys. Similarly, Ghost Town doesn't work because you'd be unable to play it the same turn you buy it. I don't see an elegant way to do these concepts without the Night type.
Devil's Workshop could easily have a "when you discard this from play" clause. Ghost Town could have "when you gain this, play it" instead of its current text. I grant you that Raider would be somewhat stronger as a Treasure.
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Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

pregnantbird

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #19 on: October 23, 2017, 04:55:38 am »
0

Quote
At this point I think that Night cards are mostly a new mechanic in order to not confuse casual players by having cards with Treasure type that don't provide money. All of what we've seen here could easily be implemented using existing mechanics for Treasure cards.

Not really, since its possible with some cards to play treasures midturn (storryteller, Black Market, Villa)...

I wondered what is happening if a card like vassal or golem reveals a night card?
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Donald X.

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #20 on: October 23, 2017, 04:56:50 am »
+17

Overall I find the idea of Night cards being for casual players hilarious. The last few Dominion expansions have been manna from heaven for hardcore players, and probably way too much for casual fans. This one looks to be the same.
I have not found Night to be overly confusing for casual players. It's as easy as A B N C!
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Donald X.

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #21 on: October 23, 2017, 04:58:31 am »
+3

I wondered what is happening if a card like vassal or golem reveals a night card?
Golem looks for Action cards, and skips other cards. Similarly Vassal only plays Actions.
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Donald X.

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #22 on: October 23, 2017, 04:59:27 am »
+7

Devil's Workshop could easily have a "when you discard this from play" clause.
Mock it up! It will not compare favorably.
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Minotaur

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #23 on: October 23, 2017, 05:46:03 am »
0

Ghost Town seems like an ok Village, but I'd rather have Coin of the Realm.  It's a next-turn Village and a blind Haven, which is sort of cool I guess, but not necessarily amazing.  I guess you'd have to play half of them every turn if you're drawing your deck with terminal draw every turn, so that could take some care to set up (i.e., you can't play all of them the first time you draw your deck, or it's a combo breaker).
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BBL

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Re: Previews #1: Devil's Workshop, Raider, Ghost Town
« Reply #24 on: October 23, 2017, 06:18:41 am »
0

I sill do not quite understand Raider: I play it during Night phase. My opponents need to discard all cards that I played before (during Day) and all cards I played during night. So if I played [Village, Smithy Mountebank, Copper, Gold] before the night phase and then I play Raider and Devil's Workshop - how is it determined which cards my opponents need to discard? He probably has a 5 card hand at that time, so he only needs to discard 1 card, right?
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