Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Asklepios]

Was playing a game offline yesterday, and one of my friend's opened Coppersmith-Copper, on a 5/2 split with a Witch there. Clearly he's not terribly good at this game.

Having said that, are there any Kingdoms where Coppersmith/Copper is the optimal opening?

[Davio]

I'm thinking: No.

In most games where Coppersmith is somewhat useful, you might need other components first, for instance Tactician.
Having a Tactician almost certifies being able to get a Coppersmith, while the opposite isn't necessarily true (CS-C-C-E-E).

[Lekkit]

I'm thinking: maybe.

I doubt people thought opening Potion/Copper was a good move, but MMM's Native Village/Apothecary proved otherwise. I think there just might be a kingdom where Coppersmith first would be a good opening.

[DStu]

I'm thinking: maybe.

I doubt people thought opening Potion/Copper was a good move, but MMM's Native Village/Apothecary proved otherwise. I think there just might be a kingdom where Coppersmith first would be a good opening.

maybe Goons?

[Asklepios]

I'm thinking: maybe.

I doubt people thought opening Potion/Copper was a good move, but MMM's Native Village/Apothecary proved otherwise. I think there just might be a kingdom where Coppersmith first would be a good opening.

I LOVE that native village engine. It completely changed the way I viewed Native Village: suddenly stuff like Lookout/Native Village, Cartographer/Native Village, Hunting Party/Native Village all started making sense, as my NV became the ultimately oubliette for stuff I wanted out of my deck but didn't want to trash. Admittedly none of the above stuff is quite as smooth and consistent as apothecary/NV, but finding out about that engine improved my game in so many ways...

But yeah, thats the kind of thing I'm talking about. Is there an engine that would benefit from Coppersmith/Copper, or even Coppersmith/anything as an opening? Maybe some kind of coppersmith / native village / woodcutter megaturn setup?

[WanderingWinder]

Definitely the answer is yes (well, maybe you don't want the copper). Because this beats BMU on the 5/2 split. However, you need an absolutely terrible board otherwise. Something like:
Coppersmith
Transmute
Scout
Village
Worker's Village
Throne Room
King's Court
Border Village
Outpost
Possession

Well, you know, there's not really anything else to do. But you really have to work at it to have coppersmith actually be really good without any 5s you want first.

[Lekkit]

What if the split is 3/4 or 4/3?

[WanderingWinder]

What if the split is 3/4 or 4/3?

Play big money.

[Kahryl]

Coppersmith can be good if you have a draw-your-whole-deck engine and a +buy somewhere.  In that case Coppersmith is basically a terminal Rhodium!

Otherwise it sucks.

[Davio]

I'm thinking: maybe.

I doubt people thought opening Potion/Copper was a good move, but MMM's Native Village/Apothecary proved otherwise. I think there just might be a kingdom where Coppersmith first would be a good opening.

I LOVE that native village engine. It completely changed the way I viewed Native Village: suddenly stuff like Lookout/Native Village, Cartographer/Native Village, Hunting Party/Native Village all started making sense, as my NV became the ultimately oubliette for stuff I wanted out of my deck but didn't want to trash. Admittedly none of the above stuff is quite as smooth and consistent as apothecary/NV, but finding out about that engine improved my game in so many ways...

But yeah, thats the kind of thing I'm talking about. Is there an engine that would benefit from Coppersmith/Copper, or even Coppersmith/anything as an opening? Maybe some kind of coppersmith / native village / woodcutter megaturn setup?

NV with Ambassador can be pretty good as well. With Ambassador, you're usually low on money anyway and NV helps you to set up a big turn where you can actually double Ambassador 2 cards at a time instead of sending 1 Estate or 2 Coppers everytime.

[popsofctown]

Easy.  Four players.  No trashing, no cursers, no discard attacks, no reactions.  The fours are Coppersmith and Tournament.  No other spike cards.  All the other cards are terrible, the board is mostly Tournament/big money.  If you want to have some fun, Silk Road is on the board.

You open Coppersmith/Copper to go for the greedy Coppersmith/CopperX4 hand. 

[LastFootnote]

Easy.  Four players.  No trashing, no cursers, no discard attacks, no reactions.  The fours are Coppersmith and Tournament.  No other spike cards.  All the other cards are terrible, the board is mostly Tournament/big money.  If you want to have some fun, Silk Road is on the board.

You open Coppersmith/Copper to go for the greedy Coppersmith/CopperX4 hand.

In that case, you're better off with Coppersmith/Silver.

[Lekkit]

What if the split is 3/4 or 4/3?

Play big money.

I meant in general. I bet there's an engine out there that benefits from getting Coppersmith/Copper rather than Coppersmith/something else.

[popsofctown]

Easy.  Four players.  No trashing, no cursers, no discard attacks, no reactions.  The fours are Coppersmith and Tournament.  No other spike cards.  All the other cards are terrible, the board is mostly Tournament/big money.  If you want to have some fun, Silk Road is on the board.

You open Coppersmith/Copper to go for the greedy Coppersmith/CopperX4 hand.

In that case, you're better off with Coppersmith/Silver.

Crap.
Brigand?

[HiveMindEmulator]

I meant in general. I bet there's an engine out there that benefits from getting Coppersmith/Copper rather than Coppersmith/something else.

The thing is that unless you play multiple Coppersmiths in the same turn, Silver is at least as good as Copper, so there's really no reason to buy copper over silver. Since it's almost surely going to be worse early, it needs to be much better later to make up for it. It's conceivable that you're going to do some multi-Coppersmith play or use Counting House or something, but I don't see that being too viable without some other useful 3 like Warehouse or Wishing Well, which you would then prefer to Copper as an opening.

[Lekkit]

What about: Bank, Counting House, Laboratory, Vault, Golem, Coppersmith, Worker's Village, Tunnel, Apothecary, Hamlet? Its a modified version of the IsoDom's second round kingdom. Maybe add Stables instead of Apothecary so that Potion won't be such a good first buy.

[Asklepios]

What about: Bank, Counting House, Laboratory, Vault, Golem, Coppersmith, Worker's Village, Tunnel, Apothecary, Hamlet? Its a modified version of the IsoDom's second round kingdom. Maybe add Stables instead of Apothecary so that Potion won't be such a good first buy.

Naaa, that'd be Tunnel / Hamlet to open, switch to Vault as fast as possible, then zoom to provinces, surely?

[jotheonah]

Definitely the answer is yes (well, maybe you don't want the copper). Because this beats BMU on the 5/2 split. However, you need an absolutely terrible board otherwise. Something like:
Coppersmith
Transmute
Scout
Village
Worker's Village
Throne Room
King's Court
Border Village
Outpost
Possession

Well, you know, there's not really anything else to do. But you really have to work at it to have coppersmith actually be really good without any 5s you want first.

If I'm going to go for a Coppersmith/Copperx4 hand I think I like Coppersmith/Scout better than Coppersmith/Copper

[Thisisnotasmile]

Definitely the answer is yes (well, maybe you don't want the copper). Because this beats BMU on the 5/2 split. However, you need an absolutely terrible board otherwise. Something like:
Coppersmith
Transmute
Scout
Village
Worker's Village
Throne Room
King's Court
Border Village
Outpost
Possession

Well, you know, there's not really anything else to do. But you really have to work at it to have coppersmith actually be really good without any 5s you want first.

If I'm going to go for a Coppersmith/Copperx4 hand I think I like Coppersmith/Scout better than Coppersmith/Copper

Apart from that's not a legal opening without Noble Brigand on the board.

[jotheonah]

I always think of Scout as a 3! NEVERMIND.

[Lekkit]

What about: Bank, Counting House, Laboratory, Vault, Golem, Coppersmith, Worker's Village, Tunnel, Apothecary, Hamlet? Its a modified version of the IsoDom's second round kingdom. Maybe add Stables instead of Apothecary so that Potion won't be such a good first buy.

Naaa, that'd be Tunnel / Hamlet to open, switch to Vault as fast as possible, then zoom to provinces, surely?

Maybe it can't be done without Chancellor, but this game is pretty fast, I'd say. Probably a lot faster than Tunnel/Hamlet/Vault.

http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120213-140743-2a69c20b.html

[RisingJaguar]

Similar to WW's response particularly coppersmith/COPPER, this is probably never a really good idea.  Coppersmith's strength almost always comes from its ability to be used in a drawing chain.  Opening copper doesn't help that. 

If you're worried about getting more coppers to power up coppersmith, that just dilutes your drawing ability.  Also if you're trying to power it up, then + buys are needed, and in that case coppers should be added later on in the game.

With that said, coppersmith isn't a horrible idea if early $6 are good (Goons/border village with a +card?) and the $5 are useless that silver/silver start isn't better. 

[popsofctown]

Does Brigand on the board make my super multiplayer solution work?


Kinda like Treasure map in four player.  Everyone buy your lottery tickets.  Be in it to win it.