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Author Topic: Dominion Terms: What Should We Call Things?  (Read 2190 times)

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Seprix

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Dominion Terms: What Should We Call Things?
« on: October 10, 2017, 01:06:53 pm »
+4

This is something that has spawned much debate as of late, and I don't think it's a topic that deserves to be in an article. I think it's a "everyone says their piece" sort of deal, and whatever sticks will stick. So there's a bunch of things that need to be decided. I am for the record perfectly happy with the squinty fuzzy sorta get it right with the vague word, but a lot of people are not and I want to see if we can agree to call things the same things somewhat consistently.

1. What to call a Village that isn't a traditional Village? You know, when you Summon a cantrip or play two Throne Rooms to play multiple actions. Do we need a meta term to encompass all cards that allow you to play multiple actions? Awaclus has proposed "splitter" which I think is highly confusing but some people like it.

2. What do you call the 2017 Money decks? Some people call them "Good Stuff" decks. Others call them Province Rushes. Moneyish decks. Money Engines. There are so many names for this type of deck. What is it? Let me try to define it.

It's a deck where you play money with a bunch of good cards in your deck. You get a trasher or junker in the opener, play with Trade, Conquest, Borrow, etc. Usually there isn't as much emphasis on draw cards, although those can exist.

I am a fan of calling these decks Province Rushes. But what if there is one and you're competing with Castles? Maybe Province Rush variant?

3. Different types of engines. We all know this one. How many different types of engines are there? How should they be catagorized? A lot of people lean on the WanderingWinder 4 deck types but I do not like those anymore. They're not very useful. Can there be a better system? I think so.

(a note: none of this will help people play better Dominion as much as it will help clarify what people mean whenever they say X or Y.)

I may have missed some things. It's really an open topic. As always be civil, I'm half afraid this will be locked in 3 weeks.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2017, 01:08:20 pm by Seprix »
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LastFootnote

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Re: Dominion Terms: What Should We Call Things?
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2017, 01:17:55 pm »
+3

1. I don't think we need a single term for things that can act as villages but don't give a flat +2 (or more) Actions. I feel like normally I talk about them on a case-by-case basis anyway.

2. Maybe just non-engine? Or something. I do think the term "Big Money Deck" means so many different things to different people that it hinders communication rather than aiding it. I tentatively like "Province Rush". Maybe we don't need a term that encompasses both "Province Rush" and "Castles Rush". We can just refer to them individually.

3. When you say "different types of engine", what do you mean? Like, the way they draw, or the way they trash, or their payload?
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SCSN

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Re: Dominion Terms: What Should We Call Things?
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2017, 01:22:15 pm »
+7

I am a fan of calling these decks Province Rushes. But what if there is one and you're competing with Castles? Maybe Province Rush variant?

Points rush.
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Awaclus

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Re: Dominion Terms: What Should We Call Things?
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2017, 01:24:47 pm »
0

1. What to call a Village that isn't a traditional Village? You know, when you Summon a cantrip or play two Throne Rooms to play multiple actions. Do we need a meta term to encompass all cards that allow you to play multiple actions? Awaclus has proposed "splitter" which I think is highly confusing but some people like it.

I have not proposed "splitter", it was a term that originated from onigame's kingdom generator. I have proposed "anti-terminal" but the only reaction to that was an aunt pun, which is why I continue to use "splitter".

2. What do you call the 2017 Money decks? Some people call them "Good Stuff" decks. Others call them Province Rushes. Moneyish decks. Money Engines. There are so many names for this type of deck. What is it? Let me try to define it.

It's a deck where you play money with a bunch of good cards in your deck. You get a trasher or junker in the opener, play with Trade, Conquest, Borrow, etc. Usually there isn't as much emphasis on draw cards, although those can exist.

I am a fan of calling these decks Province Rushes. But what if there is one and you're competing with Castles? Maybe Province Rush variant?

I am not a fan of calling these decks anything Rushes or anything Engines because rush and engine already mean something different, respectively. Other than that, I don't think it really matters what term you use as long as it's easy to figure out what you mean by it. Big money, good stuff, moneyish deck, 2017 money, etc. are all good enough terms.

3. Different types of engines. We all know this one. How many different types of engines are there? How should they be catagorized? A lot of people lean on the WanderingWinder 4 deck types but I do not like those anymore. They're not very useful. Can there be a better system? I think so.

That's more of a spectrum than something that can be easily classified into distinct categories. I think it's fine to just call them engines, and describe the finer details by, for example, naming some of the most relevant kingdom cards when necessary.

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Re: Dominion Terms: What Should We Call Things?
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2017, 01:29:31 pm »
+2

"2017 money Deck"? Things are getting pretty meta, but 2017 does mark the start of Dominion Online as we know it now.

I kind of like the term anti-terminal, but the QWERTY phenomenon seems to be in full effect when it comes to villages/splitters. I personally wish to use "Village & co.".
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Re: Dominion Terms: What Should We Call Things?
« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2017, 01:35:51 pm »
0

I actually like anti-terminal for those odd case villages, or maybe even "villages" in general.  Anything that can enable you to play multiple terminal actions in a particular kingdom.
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Re: Dominion Terms: What Should We Call Things?
« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2017, 01:37:24 pm »
+17

I assume the main argument against using the term "village" is ambiguity between this term and the Village card.
I suggest we should increase the frustration and call all the villages "walled villages".

dedicateddan

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Re: Dominion Terms: What Should We Call Things?
« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2017, 01:44:25 pm »
+5

On money - Call it money. If the deck is competing against an overbuilt engine, "Province rush" also works

On +action - Call it +action, i.e. "Throne Room is the only way to get +action here"
« Last Edit: October 10, 2017, 01:46:32 pm by dedicateddan »
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trivialknot

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Re: Dominion Terms: What Should We Call Things?
« Reply #8 on: October 10, 2017, 01:46:49 pm »
+6

1. I use "splitter", but I don't really care.  "+Action"/"plus action" is also a good term that anyone can understand even if they've never heard it before.  So if I'm playing with a relative newbie, I can say, "There's plus action in this kingdom because of Summon," then I'd explain how Summon can get you extra actions.  Calling Summon a village is confusing and prompts arguments.

3. Rather than trying to classify engines in categories, we should be characterizing them with adjectives.  Adjectives are much more flexible, because they can overlap, and you can talk about distinctions without necessarily having to place them within a theory of everything.  Besides, we're already using adjectives.
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SCSN

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Re: Dominion Terms: What Should We Call Things?
« Reply #9 on: October 10, 2017, 02:02:30 pm »
+9

The one term that has always amused me is "Good stuff deck"; it's generally about as good as the "Democratic People's Republic of Korea" is a republic run by the Korean people in a democratic fashion.
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DG

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Re: Dominion Terms: What Should We Call Things?
« Reply #10 on: October 10, 2017, 02:07:21 pm »
+3

Big money still works. I think the Wandering Winder deck types still hold true up to empires and largely hold after empires. Any introduction to Dominion tactics can exclude empires.

Splitter isn't needed as a term and is just confusing.

Engines can cross over so many categories that there isn't much point laying down rules for how to play them if you just break those rules all the time.

I don't have a problem discussing decks using existing terms.
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Re: Dominion Terms: What Should We Call Things?
« Reply #11 on: October 10, 2017, 02:18:21 pm »
+2

On +action - Call it +action, i.e. "Throne Room is the only way to get +action here"

Now that you mention it, this is what I use IRL. It's concise, intuitive and as unambiguous as any other proposed term.

It also gets at the fundamental question one is likely to ask in a game, which is: "Can I get extra actions, and if so, how?" The solution for netting extra actions may involve multiple cards, tokens and/or card-shaped objects.

I doubt many people ask themselves, mid-game, "Which cards here would I classify as a Village/Splitter/Porg?"

The taxonomy of Dominion cards is interesting, but I think it's mostly trivial outside the context of a particular kingdom.
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Re: Dominion Terms: What Should We Call Things?
« Reply #12 on: October 10, 2017, 02:22:43 pm »
+7

Does it really matter what we call things?

Quote
You can know the name of that bird in all the languages of the world, but when you're finished, you'll know absolutely nothing whatever about the bird. You'll only know about humans in different places, and what they call the bird. ... I learned very early the difference between knowing the name of something and knowing something.
- Richard Feynman

I once had someone say "nice engine" when they saw me play Scavenger/Stash - playing 1 Action per turn. Definitely not an "engine", in all the definitions I've seen. But rather than talking about the definition of 'engine', we talked about Scavenger/Stash and how to set it up quickly, what to do in a mirror, etc. - these are the things that matter.


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trivialknot

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Re: Dominion Terms: What Should We Call Things?
« Reply #13 on: October 10, 2017, 02:35:22 pm »
+2

"Big Money" is a fraught term because the title suggests heavy reliance on Treasures, and it was also originally understood in this way.  But there is a need for a larger category of strategies which includes treasure-reliant decks, but also action-heavy non-drawing decks, or decks that have only 3 Encampments for draw, and so on.  For lack of a better term, we call this deck "Big Money", but lots of people still understand "Big Money" to refer to treasure-reliant decks.

I think "Good Stuff" is a better term, but the name isn't very descriptive, and I don't think WanderingWinder originally intended Big Money to be a subset of Good Stuff.

As far as most newbies are concerned, what this deck is, is basically an ordinary deck.  It's the deck type you start out with, and then later you learn about slogs, rushes, and engines.  But calling it "ordinary" deck is problematic because it's only "ordinary" in novice play.

I don't know what to call it.  But just throwing an idea out there, you could call it a Stop Card Deck, because the stop cards far exceed the drawing/sifting.  I guess most rushes and slogs would fit that category too.
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Re: Dominion Terms: What Should We Call Things?
« Reply #14 on: October 10, 2017, 02:42:03 pm »
+1

1. The simplest thing to do seems to simply say you "got actions."

"Dan got actions from Possession on Caravan Guard and draw from Smithy" for example.

2. I like "the beatdown." It's an old and well-understood term for card games, which demarcates a deck trying to end the game as quickly as possible.

3. There are too many to categorize, and more will emerge over time. It's simplest to just list the engine:

"It was an Artificer/Highway engine"
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Bowi

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Re: Dominion Terms: What Should We Call Things?
« Reply #15 on: October 10, 2017, 02:43:58 pm »
+4

1. +Action is probably best. Splitter works as well (it makes about the same amount of intuitive sense as engine). I don't hate the term pseudo-village but can understand why people resist the term.

2. Pretty much any term besides "good stuff". All the rest are descriptive in some way while good stuff doesn't tell you jack (and is even kind of misleading).

3. Just be descriptive about the engine; it doesn't necessarily have to be hard categories. Maybe even state some of the key cards in the engine, particularly the draw and payload. Also, remember that it's also significant to declare what the engine lacks (+buy/gain, trashing, etc.).

Does it really matter what we call things?

I'm not a huge fan of this line of thinking.

I get where you're coming from: people shouldn't get so wrapped up in abstract concepts as to miss what's really happening. However, these abstract concepts are both important for how we decipher how to play boards and how we communicate strategy to one another. We're not able to calculate all the true probabilities related to Dominion so we have to break it down into generalizations and rules of thumb. We refine those generalizations and rules of thumb through trial and error and discussion on the forum. It's important to have coherent language to convey and receive advice on how to play boards.
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Awaclus

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Re: Dominion Terms: What Should We Call Things?
« Reply #16 on: October 10, 2017, 03:32:00 pm »
0

2. I like "the beatdown." It's an old and well-understood term for card games, which demarcates a deck trying to end the game as quickly as possible.

That's a separate issue. Any type of deck can be the beatdown or not be the beatdown. Sure, if you're playing big money against an engine, most of the time you're going to be the beatdown, but you can also be the beatdown when you're playing an engine against another engine.

Awaclus

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Re: Dominion Terms: What Should We Call Things?
« Reply #17 on: October 10, 2017, 03:33:43 pm »
0

2. Pretty much any term besides "good stuff". All the rest are descriptive in some way while good stuff doesn't tell you jack (and is even kind of misleading).

"Good stuff" is perfectly descriptive. It's the deck where you buy good stuff (as opposed to, say, Village, which is not good stuff unless you combine it with terminal Actions).

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Re: Dominion Terms: What Should We Call Things?
« Reply #18 on: October 10, 2017, 04:08:40 pm »
0

Given I haven’t played Dominion since the set with the Knights, maybe just ignore me, but on the villages/splitters/etc. thing, I think we are talking about cards that produce more actions to be used during your turn, hence the +Action idea.

I think a more elegant phrasing would be something like discussing the “Action generators” or “Action producers” in the kingdom.  That may be long for verbal communication, but in articles and such, I think it would read nicely.

In forum speak, this would inevitably be pared down, probably to just “generators” for short.  To combat this, you could adopt it for all + cards: coin generators, card generators, etc.  Or just let it go.

There’s no real difference from +/plus, but again, language allows for so many options.
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KingPeter

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Re: Dominion Terms: What Should We Call Things?
« Reply #19 on: October 10, 2017, 04:28:49 pm »
0

Cards that have the power to provide net +Action, but don't always, are pseudo-villages.  Throne Room variants, Ironmonger, Herald, Summon, Prince, can accomplish this.  It could be stretched to include Squire and Trusty Steed, since they don't need any help to provide net +Action.
By my understanding, Splitter means something that doesn't provide +Action, but helps prevent terminal collision: stuff like Scheme, Haven, or Save.
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Re: Dominion Terms: What Should We Call Things?
« Reply #20 on: October 10, 2017, 07:11:17 pm »
0

The one term that has always amused me is "Good stuff deck"; it's generally about as good as the "Democratic People's Republic of Korea" is a republic run by the Korean people in a democratic fashion.

"Good stuff" comes from Magic: the Gathering, right? Basically talking about a deck that played individually powerful cards, as opposed to synergistic combinations of cards. Or is the point you're making that Gold isn't a "good stuff", since there's usually something you can be doing better than buying Gold?
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Donald X.

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Re: Dominion Terms: What Should We Call Things?
« Reply #21 on: October 10, 2017, 07:50:00 pm »
0

"Good stuff" comes from Magic: the Gathering, right?
Yes.
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Donald X.

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Re: Dominion Terms: What Should We Call Things?
« Reply #22 on: October 10, 2017, 08:16:55 pm »
+7

1. What to call a Village that isn't a traditional Village? You know, when you Summon a cantrip or play two Throne Rooms to play multiple actions. Do we need a meta term to encompass all cards that allow you to play multiple actions? Awaclus has proposed "splitter" which I think is highly confusing but some people like it.
I call villages Villages, conditional villages Conditional Villages, and throne rooms Thrones. When I need a blanket term I use Villages, and clarify if it's necessary, which it never is, not ever. For example, you said, and I quote, "What to call a Village that isn't a traditional Village?" You use the word "Village" there the way I do, as the blanket term. And we knew what you meant, we didn't need you to clarify it. It's working already.

2. What do you call the 2017 Money decks? Some people call them "Good Stuff" decks. Others call them Province Rushes. Moneyish decks. Money Engines. There are so many names for this type of deck. What is it? Let me try to define it.
I just describe the deck, whatever deck it is, engine or not. It was a City Quarter / Hoard deck. He bought up Hunting Parties in the face of Marauder and IGG. You know. I never find myself needing some term to handle this for me.

3. Different types of engines. We all know this one. How many different types of engines are there? How should they be catagorized? A lot of people lean on the WanderingWinder 4 deck types but I do not like those anymore. They're not very useful. Can there be a better system? I think so.
When you are looking at a board, it is for sure helpful to immediately check for engine pieces: is there trashing, draw, village, +buy or gaining. It's also good to just see, what are all the strong cards on this board, maybe they will matter. When you build the engine, the path you take and what you end up with will vary a lot based on the power levels of the cards and their particular quirks. I am not sure categorizing these decks gets you anywhere. It's useful to talk about like how good of a village/smithy thing you can build based on what the village and smithy are, like that article of Stef's. For an actual deck though, well this time Village/Smithy was paired with Remake but also Poor House, or whatever. This time my deck had Curses in it; I didn't want them but they were there, they meant a lot to what the deck was. It wasn't Engine 37, it was Engine 37C.
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Re: Dominion Terms: What Should We Call Things?
« Reply #23 on: October 10, 2017, 08:30:03 pm »
+8

Donald working in the subtle digs at my and Dan's failures.
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Re: Dominion Terms: What Should We Call Things?
« Reply #24 on: October 11, 2017, 07:02:40 am »
+1

I only really consider two kinds of decks - engines and rushes. Engines try to chain Actions to gain greater control over the game / the opponent / the end-state; they generally take longer to build with a higher reward at the end. Rushes generally aim to end the game (or secure the majority of points) before an Engine could get enough momentum to secure a lead.

"Big Money" is a rush, to me. I don't like the term "Big Money" in 2017 because a lot of these decks don't rely almost exclusively on expensive Treasures + terminal draw anymore. Cantrips, non-drawing terminals, etc. can all be important part of what's essentially a Province rush (or points rush, if you want to be more general than that).

But why call Money a rush when clearly Rebuild and Ironworks / Gardens are rushes? These aren't actually all that different. Money decks traditionally aim to make the average turn produce $8, by adding Treasures and a few other cards. Rebuild rushes try to make the average turn upgrade Victory cards. Gardens deck try to make the average turn result in getting two plus cards. All of these decks generally pass on adding consistency at the expense of building speed.

The fundamental difference between these two styles of deck is that rushes aim for a powerful average turn while engines generally aim for a consistent turn that ideally draws the entire deck.

I know a lot of people won't use these concepts, and that's fine, I'll just describe things the way it's being described in the thread. I just thought I'd state my preference and the arguments in favor of it.
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Re: Dominion Terms: What Should We Call Things?
« Reply #25 on: October 11, 2017, 07:11:12 am »
0

I only really consider two kinds of decks - engines and rushes. Engines try to chain Actions to gain greater control over the game / the opponent / the end-state; they generally take longer to build with a higher reward at the end. Rushes generally aim to end the game (or secure the majority of points) before an Engine could get enough momentum to secure a lead.

This has nothing to do with deck types, this is beatdown and control.

If you don't think deck types are worth considering, then don't consider them, but there's no reason to use words that mean deck types when you're actually talking about beatdown and control.

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Re: Dominion Terms: What Should We Call Things?
« Reply #26 on: October 11, 2017, 08:54:28 am »
+1

The thing with "+actions" is that it also sounds like it applies to cantrips and other non-terminals that don't increase the number of terminals you can play in a turn. Something like "net+actions" indicates an overall increase in the number of actions you can spend after the card resolves.

When you think about it, "terminal" is also a term that you have to learn. I always though "splitter" and "terminal" were meant to be a pair of terms that complement each other. As in, the path splits to let you reach different terminals.
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Re: Dominion Terms: What Should We Call Things?
« Reply #27 on: October 11, 2017, 09:32:25 am »
+4

When you think about it, "terminal" is also a term that you have to learn. I always though "splitter" and "terminal" were meant to be a pair of terms that complement each other. As in, the path splits to let you reach different terminals.

I have never found myself needing a catch-all term like "terminal," but if I did I would probably just go with "Royal Blacksmith variant."
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Re: Dominion Terms: What Should We Call Things?
« Reply #28 on: October 12, 2017, 03:51:06 pm »
+4

Once upon a time, we all said "Villages". Then there came people calling them "splitters". Splitters!

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Re: Dominion Terms: What Should We Call Things?
« Reply #29 on: October 12, 2017, 04:19:35 pm »
0

Do people think it's important that this type of card lets you play multiple different terminal actions per turn? Cultist and Vassal are terminal but let you play multiple copies of themselves but I doubt anyone would call them villages or splitters or whatever, they're more like conditional non-terminals.

If this is the case then is Royal Carriage only a village/splitter when there is a different non-terminal card in the kingdom? As otherwise it only lets you play one terminal multiple times. 
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Re: Dominion Terms: What Should We Call Things?
« Reply #30 on: October 12, 2017, 04:28:09 pm »
+1

Do people think it's important that this type of card lets you play multiple different terminal actions per turn? Cultist and Vassal are terminal but let you play multiple copies of themselves but I doubt anyone would call them villages or splitters or whatever, they're more like conditional non-terminals.

If this is the case then is Royal Carriage only a village/splitter when there is a different non-terminal card in the kingdom? As otherwise it only lets you play one terminal multiple times.

It's important that this type of card lets you play multiple Bridges per turn.

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Re: Dominion Terms: What Should We Call Things?
« Reply #31 on: October 12, 2017, 05:21:09 pm »
0

Do people think it's important that this type of card lets you play multiple different terminal actions per turn? Cultist and Vassal are terminal but let you play multiple copies of themselves but I doubt anyone would call them villages or splitters or whatever, they're more like conditional non-terminals.

If this is the case then is Royal Carriage only a village/splitter when there is a different non-terminal card in the kingdom? As otherwise it only lets you play one terminal multiple times.

It's important that this type of card lets you play multiple Bridges per turn.
Do play games exclusively featuring Bridge or something?

What about Bridge Troll, Goons or Merchant Guild? Which actually require you to play different cards to stack the effect.
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Re: Dominion Terms: What Should We Call Things?
« Reply #32 on: October 12, 2017, 05:34:57 pm »
0

Do people think it's important that this type of card lets you play multiple different terminal actions per turn? Cultist and Vassal are terminal but let you play multiple copies of themselves but I doubt anyone would call them villages or splitters or whatever, they're more like conditional non-terminals.

If this is the case then is Royal Carriage only a village/splitter when there is a different non-terminal card in the kingdom? As otherwise it only lets you play one terminal multiple times.

It's important that this type of card lets you play multiple Bridges per turn.
Do play games exclusively featuring Bridge or something?

What about Bridge Troll, Goons or Merchant Guild? Which actually require you to play different cards to stack the effect.

You'll have to take that into account when playing with those particular cards.

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Re: Dominion Terms: What Should We Call Things?
« Reply #33 on: October 12, 2017, 06:05:01 pm »
+1

"Dan got actions from Possession on Caravan Guard"

That sounds pretty sweet!
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Re: Dominion Terms: What Should We Call Things?
« Reply #34 on: October 13, 2017, 08:59:54 am »
+2

Warning: If you are new to the forum, do not read this thread.
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Re: Dominion Terms: What Should We Call Things?
« Reply #35 on: October 13, 2017, 04:51:20 pm »
+4

It's not even three weeks and I already regret making this thread
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Re: Dominion Terms: What Should We Call Things?
« Reply #36 on: October 13, 2017, 07:11:11 pm »
+3

New proposal: action is renamed "taco"

Then you can say, "my village gives me +2 tacos"
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Re: Dominion Terms: What Should We Call Things?
« Reply #37 on: October 13, 2017, 07:12:34 pm »
+1

New proposal: action is renamed "taco"

Then you can say, "my village gives me +2 tacos"

It doesn't make any sense to get tacos from bananas.

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Re: Dominion Terms: What Should We Call Things?
« Reply #38 on: October 13, 2017, 07:33:23 pm »
+1

New proposal: action is renamed "taco"

Then you can say, "my village gives me +2 tacos"

I sent a Teacher to my Village to train their cooking skills, now they each give me +3 Tacos!

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Re: Dominion Terms: What Should We Call Things?
« Reply #39 on: October 15, 2017, 11:39:49 am »
0

I assume the main argument against using the term "village" is ambiguity between this term and the Village card.
I suggest we should increase the frustration and call all the villages "walled villages".
'

Joke aside, as I understand it, the actual argument against using the term isn't that ambiguity, but rather the question of if cards like Throne Room should count.
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Re: Dominion Terms: What Should We Call Things?
« Reply #40 on: October 16, 2017, 06:14:47 pm »
+6

breppert:  Yeah, the only reasonable explanation is that he just does not see CoTR
Dan Brooks:  It's an anti-terminal splitter Taco
daavor:  sounds yummy
Dan Brooks:  I get one every time I got to taco bell
breppert:  I'm gonna head to Costco to get tacos right after this now, thanks Dan
Dan Brooks:  Ship some to me @Breppert
daavor:  is that a vacuous truth dan?
Dan Brooks:  @Daavor yes
Seprix:  I'm getting tacos after this now
daavor:  man i should get tacos
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Re: Dominion Terms: What Should We Call Things?
« Reply #41 on: October 16, 2017, 06:32:28 pm »
+8

I assume the main argument against using the term "village" is ambiguity between this term and the Village card.
I suggest we should increase the frustration and call all the villages "walled villages".

...does anybody remember the vanillage?
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Re: Dominion Terms: What Should We Call Things?
« Reply #42 on: October 16, 2017, 07:30:19 pm »
+3

I assume the main argument against using the term "village" is ambiguity between this term and the Village card.
I suggest we should increase the frustration and call all the villages "walled villages".

...does anybody remember the vanillage?
Yep. And since Walled Village is technically Carcassonne, that makes it the French Vanillage.
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Re: Dominion Terms: What Should We Call Things?
« Reply #43 on: October 16, 2017, 07:53:46 pm »
+4

breppert:  Yeah, the only reasonable explanation is that he just does not see CoTR
Dan Brooks:  It's an anti-terminal splitter Taco
daavor:  sounds yummy
Dan Brooks:  I get one every time I got to taco bell
breppert:  I'm gonna head to Costco to get tacos right after this now, thanks Dan
Dan Brooks:  Ship some to me @Breppert
daavor:  is that a vacuous truth dan?
Dan Brooks:  @Daavor yes
Seprix:  I'm getting tacos after this now
daavor:  man i should get tacos

We will henceforth remove Village from our vocabulary, and replace it with Taco.

I would have been able to build a solid engine, but there weren't any Tacos.
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Re: Dominion Terms: What Should We Call Things?
« Reply #44 on: October 16, 2017, 08:21:27 pm »
+7

We will henceforth remove Village from our vocabulary, and replace it with Taco.

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Re: Dominion Terms: What Should We Call Things?
« Reply #45 on: October 16, 2017, 08:38:36 pm »
+5

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Re: Dominion Terms: What Should We Call Things?
« Reply #46 on: October 16, 2017, 08:47:56 pm »
+4

Engine means a deck that uses "Gear," "Mill," or "Catapult".
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Re: Dominion Terms: What Should We Call Things?
« Reply #47 on: October 16, 2017, 09:07:18 pm »
0

Engine means a deck that uses "Gear," "Mill," or "Catapult".

Or Mining Village. Maybe Worker's Village. See, the terminology makes sense after all.
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Re: Dominion Terms: What Should We Call Things?
« Reply #49 on: October 17, 2017, 01:51:59 pm »
0

Looking at that Nocturne thread made me realize one potential good thing that could come from this thread: We need a better term than "card-shaped things."

I'm thinking we at least need a nice, elegant term that encompasses things you can buy (so Cards and Events, but not Landmarks.) "Buyables?" I'm open to suggestions.

We might also need something that encompasses Cards, Events and Landmarks. Basically, these are the things that you pay the most attention to because they change every game. Of course, Colonies and Shelters also change, so... I dunno. Thoughts?
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Re: Dominion Terms: What Should We Call Things?
« Reply #50 on: October 17, 2017, 01:54:06 pm »
+3

We might also need something that encompasses Cards, Events and Landmarks. Basically, these are the things that you pay the most attention to because they change every game. Of course, Colonies and Shelters also change, so... I dunno. Thoughts?

Kingdom pieces?
« Last Edit: October 17, 2017, 02:08:48 pm by LastFootnote »
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Re: Dominion Terms: What Should We Call Things?
« Reply #51 on: October 17, 2017, 02:05:56 pm »
+2

Looking at that Nocturne thread made me realize one potential good thing that could come from this thread: We need a better term than "card-shaped things."

I'm thinking we at least need a nice, elegant term that encompasses things you can buy (so Cards and Events, but not Landmarks.) "Buyables?" I'm open to suggestions.

We might also need something that encompasses Cards, Events and Landmarks. Basically, these are the things that you pay the most attention to because they change every game. Of course, Colonies and Shelters also change, so... I dunno. Thoughts?

In most contexts, the distinction between a card and a non-card card-shaped thing doesn't matter so you can just call them cards.

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Re: Dominion Terms: What Should We Call Things?
« Reply #52 on: October 17, 2017, 02:13:17 pm »
+2

Looking at that Nocturne thread made me realize one potential good thing that could come from this thread: We need a better term than "card-shaped things."

I'm thinking we at least need a nice, elegant term that encompasses things you can buy (so Cards and Events, but not Landmarks.) "Buyables?" I'm open to suggestions.

We might also need something that encompasses Cards, Events and Landmarks. Basically, these are the things that you pay the most attention to because they change every game. Of course, Colonies and Shelters also change, so... I dunno. Thoughts?

In most contexts, the distinction between a card and a non-card card-shaped thing doesn't matter so you can just call them cards.

Is there a context in which it's not simpler and clearer to refer to them as "cards and events?"

If there were ever a third type of thing to buy, then I would be more easily persuaded that we need a new term.
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Re: Dominion Terms: What Should We Call Things?
« Reply #53 on: October 17, 2017, 02:27:48 pm »
+1

Is there a context in which it's not simpler and clearer to refer to them as "cards and events?"

"Donate is the most OP card in Dominion" is simpler and as clear as "Donate is the most OP card or event in Dominion".

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Re: Dominion Terms: What Should We Call Things?
« Reply #54 on: October 17, 2017, 05:11:04 pm »
+2

Looking at that Nocturne thread made me realize one potential good thing that could come from this thread: We need a better term than "card-shaped things."

I'm thinking we at least need a nice, elegant term that encompasses things you can buy (so Cards and Events, but not Landmarks.) "Buyables?" I'm open to suggestions.

We might also need something that encompasses Cards, Events and Landmarks. Basically, these are the things that you pay the most attention to because they change every game. Of course, Colonies and Shelters also change, so... I dunno. Thoughts?

Kards.
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Re: Dominion Terms: What Should We Call Things?
« Reply #55 on: October 17, 2017, 05:57:57 pm »
+6

Looking at that Nocturne thread made me realize one potential good thing that could come from this thread: We need a better term than "card-shaped things."

I'm thinking we at least need a nice, elegant term that encompasses things you can buy (so Cards and Events, but not Landmarks.) "Buyables?" I'm open to suggestions.

We might also need something that encompasses Cards, Events and Landmarks. Basically, these are the things that you pay the most attention to because they change every game. Of course, Colonies and Shelters also change, so... I dunno. Thoughts?

I always call them cardoids. Nobody else does, though.
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Re: Dominion Terms: What Should We Call Things?
« Reply #56 on: October 17, 2017, 10:05:25 pm »
0

It's difficult. Best I can think of is to borrow from the world of finance and refer to Cards and Events as "Asks", i.e. offers of things at specific prices. That would more rightly refer to the price than the thing, but it does at least have the merit of being a concise and commonplace word that can't easily be confused with any other Dominion terminology.
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Re: Dominion Terms: What Should We Call Things?
« Reply #57 on: October 17, 2017, 10:34:02 pm »
+1

What's wrong with card-shaped-thing? Donald uses it...

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Re: Dominion Terms: What Should We Call Things?
« Reply #58 on: October 17, 2017, 10:57:28 pm »
+1

What's wrong with card-shaped-thing? Donald uses it...

I just hate it, personally. It's way too clunky. I feel like there has to be a better term for a concept that's referred to so often. It also includes Landmarks by definition, but we might need a term for only things you can buy.
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Re: Dominion Terms: What Should We Call Things?
« Reply #59 on: October 17, 2017, 11:07:22 pm »
0

What's wrong with card-shaped-thing? Donald uses it...

I just hate it, personally. It's way too clunky. I feel like there has to be a better term for a concept that's referred to so often. It also includes Landmarks by definition, but we might need a term for only things you can buy.

And then non-supply stuff like Spoils and Madman.

Possibly some term with the word "kingdom" can work.
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Re: Dominion Terms: What Should We Call Things?
« Reply #60 on: October 17, 2017, 11:26:03 pm »
+1

Rectangles.
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Re: Dominion Terms: What Should We Call Things?
« Reply #61 on: October 18, 2017, 02:07:35 am »
+6

What's wrong with card-shaped-thing? Donald uses it...

I believe the term is actually "uh card-shaped thing".
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Re: Dominion Terms: What Should We Call Things?
« Reply #62 on: October 18, 2017, 07:45:43 am »
+3

village -- card that gives at least +2 actions
psuedo-village -- card that can be used to play at least 2 additional actions

However, I prefer descriptive phrases as opposed to treating "village" as a card type (which it's not). "Extra actions" and "acts like a village" are good. As in, "I am using Throne Room to play extra actions" when playing TR-TR-terminal. Or, "Here, Summon acts like a village". Or, "Procession-Pearl Diver gives me extra actions". Or "Crossroads is a village only the first time you play it."

Big Money Ultimate (capitalized)-- the optimized strategy of buying only basic Treasures and buying only basic Victory cards. Comes from simulation subforum.
Big Money + X (capitalized) -- the optimized strategy for card X which allows for only buying/gaining X, basic Treasures, and basic Victory cards. " Comes from simulation subforum.
Y + X -- the optimized strategy of buying mostly Y with limited numbers of X, basic Treasure, and victory cards. As in "Hunting Party + X" or "Rebuild + X".
Big Money (capitalized) -- The loose deck type laid out in WW's 5 deck type article which people seem to reference, but not have read. Thus, it's becoming an undefined term in casual usage and I try not to use it in favor of describing decks directly.

It seems better to simply describe the deck you are trying to build rather than say "I am going engine here." Great. Thanks for telling me nothing. Try instead, "I want to build a deck that gains as many Minions as possible and thins out coppers and shelters." Or "I will gain a lot Mystics, cantips, and other cards that do not draw dead because I expect a fat and bloated deck." Or "I want to build a deck that consistently draws itself and generates a lot of buys to give control over the end of the game. I will accomplish this by buying Ironworks to gain villages and draw cards, trash with Junk Dealer, and use Squire for buys and a way to get Familiar to slow down my opponent".

I do not like splitter or good stuff. These terms mean nothing to me. And proposed definitions seem sloppier than simply describing what you mean directly.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2017, 07:52:06 am by Polk5440 »
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Re: Dominion Terms: What Should We Call Things?
« Reply #63 on: October 18, 2017, 11:31:34 am »
+2

Is there a context in which it's not simpler and clearer to refer to them as "cards and events?"

"Donate is the most OP card in Dominion" is simpler and as clear as "Donate is the most OP card or event in Dominion".

This creates a lot of potential confusion, and is just lazy. How hard would “oh, this card isn’t a card, so ignore things that refer to cards when thinking about this card” be to understand? Quite hard.

“Kingdom piece”, “Kingdom component”, “card or event”, whatever, these won’t literally create rules confusion out of pure laziness...
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Re: Dominion Terms: What Should We Call Things?
« Reply #64 on: October 18, 2017, 11:41:50 am »
+2

I think the current lingo is fine. Is it really that confusing? No matter what terms we use, it's always going to be confusing to newbies that an Event is somehow not a "card", so why bother switching the lingo if we're still going to have to explain that?
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Re: Dominion Terms: What Should We Call Things?
« Reply #65 on: October 18, 2017, 12:17:35 pm »
+4

If only events had been printed on those weighted balls that always rest with the same side facing up.
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Re: Dominion Terms: What Should We Call Things?
« Reply #66 on: October 18, 2017, 02:12:46 pm »
0

This creates a lot of potential confusion, and is just lazy. How hard would “oh, this card isn’t a card, so ignore things that refer to cards when thinking about this card” be to understand? Quite hard.

But that's how people already do it and it has never caused any confusion.

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Re: Dominion Terms: What Should We Call Things?
« Reply #67 on: October 19, 2017, 02:20:12 pm »
+7

You could think of an event as a thing that is printed on a card, but which is distinct from the card itself.  You cannot buy the card that the event is printed on.  You can, however, buy the event which is described by the card.  The names of the specific events are the same as the names of the card.   For example, I might say that Donate (the card) is a really strong card; then later I might buy Donate (the event) and claim that I had nonetheless not bought a card.  Sometimes we refer to the card as an "event card" or simply an "event".

When explaining to newbies, it's fun to point to the cards and say, "This is not a card," and then we all have a little laugh as if I had just pointed to a card and claimed it was a blue dog.  But beyond the humor, we all know that events are cards in the literal sense, and not merely card-shaped.

I will also mention that this proposed use of language is fully consistent with the Adventures rulebook:

Quote
Adventures has Event cards. These are not Kingdom cards. In your Buy phase, when you can buy a card, you can buy an Event instead. Buying an Event means paying the cost indicated on the Event and then doing the effect of the Event. The Event just stays on the table, the player does not take it; there is no way for a player to gain one or end up with one in their deck. Buying an Event uses up a Buy; normally a player can either buy a card, or buy an Event.
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Re: Dominion Terms: What Should We Call Things?
« Reply #68 on: October 19, 2017, 02:43:38 pm »
0

You could think of an event as a thing that is printed on a card, but which is distinct from the card itself.  You cannot buy the card that the event is printed on.  You can, however, buy the event which is described by the card.  The names of the specific events are the same as the names of the card.   For example, I might say that Donate (the card) is a really strong card; then later I might buy Donate (the event) and claim that I had nonetheless not bought a card.  Sometimes we refer to the card as an "event card" or simply an "event".

Exactly.  Very nicely said. 
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Re: Dominion Terms: What Should We Call Things?
« Reply #69 on: October 19, 2017, 03:05:23 pm »
0

Has "village-like" ever been proposed, reminiscent of "rogue-like"? Or is this just treading the same water as "pseudo-village".
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AJD

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Re: Dominion Terms: What Should We Call Things?
« Reply #70 on: October 19, 2017, 07:50:49 pm »
+2

Rogue-like = Knights, Graverobber, Lurker, Giant
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Dingan

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Re: Dominion Terms: What Should We Call Things?
« Reply #71 on: October 19, 2017, 07:53:51 pm »
+3

+1 for calling them "villages". I just don't see a scenario when this is confusing.

"Page can effectively turn everything into a village."
"Summon-Peddler can be used as a village."
"Throne Rooms can be stacked to play multiple terminals per turn -- kind of like a village."
etc.

None of these are confusing (assuming you have a basic understanding of Dominion mechanics).
« Last Edit: October 19, 2017, 07:56:26 pm by Dingan »
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Dylan32

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Re: Dominion Terms: What Should We Call Things?
« Reply #72 on: October 19, 2017, 08:33:27 pm »
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Rogue-like = Knights, Graverobber, Lurker, Giant

Rogue-like = Nethack, Slash'em, Ancient Domains of Mystery, Crypt of the Necrodancer, etc.

EDIT: Yeah, posted this and then realized this was pretty much exactly what markusin was referring to already, not actually "rogue-like" cards like AJD said. Also, 100th post. I meant for it to be my introduction, but oh well.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2017, 08:37:10 pm by Dylan32 »
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Co0kieL0rd

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Re: Dominion Terms: What Should We Call Things?
« Reply #73 on: October 20, 2017, 09:52:35 am »
+1

+1 for calling them "villages". I just don't see a scenario when this is confusing.

"Page can effectively turn everything into a village."
"Summon-Peddler can be used as a village."
"Throne Rooms can be stacked to play multiple terminals per turn -- kind of like a village."
etc.

None of these are confusing (assuming you have a basic understanding of Dominion mechanics).

This is confusing for Dominion players who have never seen cards from the Base set, like my girlfriend. Hence I introduced "villages" to her as "splitters" because I like that term. She now uses it. Take that, community!
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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: Dominion Terms: What Should We Call Things?
« Reply #74 on: October 20, 2017, 01:18:08 pm »
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Really, I'm fine with people calling Events "cards," as long as we all agree that's proper terminology and stop pedantically correcting ourselves and each other with "card-shaped thing." Cuz seriously guys, that needs to stop.

Personally, I like the "cardoid" suggestion. I think I'll use that from now on.
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Cave-o-sapien

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Re: Dominion Terms: What Should We Call Things?
« Reply #75 on: October 20, 2017, 01:20:55 pm »
+2

Really, I'm fine with people calling Events "cards," as long as we all agree that's proper terminology and stop pedantically correcting ourselves and each other with "card-shaped thing." Cuz seriously guys, that needs to stop.

I never read that as pedantry. To me it always comes across as a tongue-in-cheek acknowledgement that there isn't a great name for them.
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