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Author Topic: Any joy in putting Player tokens on 1E cards?  (Read 750 times)

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ackmondual

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Any joy in putting Player tokens on 1E cards?
« on: October 10, 2017, 04:43:38 am »
+1

AFAIK, it seems like folks are more on the extremes with the 1st Edition cards....
You like them as they are and wouldn't want to give them up, even if they aren't that great.
OR
Good riddance, nothing to see, move along.

Wondering if there's any revitalized interest when you place Player tokens on them (from Adventures.. like +1 card, +1 coin, -2 cost), etc.  I asked about Adventurer, but the general consensus was "too little, too late".  And even then, you're probably better off putting them tokens on any other better action card anyways (of which there will likely be).
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Awaclus

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Re: Any joy in putting Player tokens on 1E cards?
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2017, 05:49:05 am »
+1

If the -2 cost token was on Adventurer at the start of the game (as in without having to spend a buy or coins to move it there), it would still be a super weak card.
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Chris is me

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Re: Any joy in putting Player tokens on 1E cards?
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2017, 08:44:38 am »
+1

If the -2 cost token was on Adventurer at the start of the game (as in without having to spend a buy or coins to move it there), it would still be a super weak card.

Definitely still very weak. But at least I would buy it sometimes, in the absence of other draw, when I could use a sifter to turn Treasure draw into something actually useful. At $6 Iíve used it for draw maybe once ever - the other draw was Witch and there were enough Curses around that I preferred Treasure for sure to the chance of getting an Action and being more likely stuck with Curses. Still obviously one of the weakest draw cards though.

As for other cards and how they would be better with tokens on them by default. Chancellor would be reasonable, actually even kind of good if it had +Buy. Spy as a Village would be mid-tier; as a draw card it would be basically better than Lab. +Action on Tribute would make it far less risky. +Buy on Coppersmith would legitimately fix the card altogether, Iím pretty sure. +Card on Secret Chamber at least guarantees $5 but is still trash.
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Commodore Chuckles

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Re: Any joy in putting Player tokens on 1E cards?
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2017, 09:42:09 am »
0

Inheriting Great Hall or Scout is totally amazing.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Any joy in putting Player tokens on 1E cards?
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2017, 09:45:09 am »
+1

Inheriting Great Hall or Scout is totally amazing.

You canít Inherit Great Hall.
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Awaclus

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Re: Any joy in putting Player tokens on 1E cards?
« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2017, 09:56:18 am »
+1

If the -2 cost token was on Adventurer at the start of the game (as in without having to spend a buy or coins to move it there), it would still be a super weak card.

Definitely still very weak. But at least I would buy it sometimes, in the absence of other draw, when I could use a sifter to turn Treasure draw into something actually useful. At $6 Iíve used it for draw maybe once ever - the other draw was Witch and there were enough Curses around that I preferred Treasure for sure to the chance of getting an Action and being more likely stuck with Curses. Still obviously one of the weakest draw cards though.

As for other cards and how they would be better with tokens on them by default. Chancellor would be reasonable, actually even kind of good if it had +Buy. Spy as a Village would be mid-tier; as a draw card it would be basically better than Lab. +Action on Tribute would make it far less risky. +Buy on Coppersmith would legitimately fix the card altogether, Iím pretty sure. +Card on Secret Chamber at least guarantees $5 but is still trash.

I think guaranteeing $5 is pretty much good enough for a $2 terminal. I'd open it reasonably often.
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GendoIkari

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Re: Any joy in putting Player tokens on 1E cards?
« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2017, 10:06:37 am »
+5

Inheriting Great Hall or Scout is totally amazing.

You canít Inherit Great Hall.

Are you telling me this email saying that a long lost relative has died and left me their entire estate, include a great hall, is fake?  :-\
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pacovf

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Re: Any joy in putting Player tokens on 1E cards?
« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2017, 12:17:11 pm »
0

If the -2 cost token was on Adventurer at the start of the game (as in without having to spend a buy or coins to move it there), it would still be a super weak card.

Sounds reasonable to me on a weak board and playing BM. It's better than Smithy if your Treasure density is lower than 2/3.

I think people complain about Secret Chamber too much. It's not the best card, for sure, but it does cost 2$, and it has its uses in certain decks.

On the other hand, I don't think Tribute is salvageable.
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Awaclus

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Re: Any joy in putting Player tokens on 1E cards?
« Reply #8 on: October 10, 2017, 12:28:40 pm »
+2

Inheriting Great Hall or Scout is totally amazing.

You canít Inherit Great Hall.

Are you telling me this email saying that a long lost relative has died and left me their entire estate, include a great hall, is fake?  :-\

No, that email is completely trustworthy, but you'll have to pay $1000 to my bank account for handling all the expenses before you can receive your inheritance.

On the other hand, I don't think Tribute is salvageable.

It's pretty salvageable, you'll get $5.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2017, 12:30:10 pm by Awaclus »
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gkrieg13

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Re: Any joy in putting Player tokens on 1E cards?
« Reply #9 on: October 10, 2017, 01:45:51 pm »
0

Inheriting Great Hall or Scout is totally amazing.

You canít Inherit Great Hall.

Are you telling me this email saying that a long lost relative has died and left me their entire estate, include a great hall, is fake?  :-\

No, that email is completely trustworthy, but you'll have to pay $1000 to my bank account for handling all the expenses before you can receive your inheritance.

You are giving that money to the Nigerian prince though right?
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Bowi

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Re: Any joy in putting Player tokens on 1E cards?
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2017, 12:20:50 am »
+1

As for other cards and how they would be better with tokens on them by default. Chancellor would be reasonable, actually even kind of good if it had +Buy. Spy as a Village would be mid-tier; as a draw card it would be basically better than Lab. +Action on Tribute would make it far less risky. +Buy on Coppersmith would legitimately fix the card altogether, Iím pretty sure. +Card on Secret Chamber at least guarantees $5 but is still trash.

To add to and comment on this:

Chancellor and Woodcutter are probably fine the way they are even if they are kind of bad.
Spy and Tribute were removed for their bad interactions and therefore don't have a simple fix.
+Buy on Coppersmith is an excellent addition.
+Card on Secret Chamber would make it decent. It would also be the only terminal +1 Card.
+Action on Mine would make it more useable in engines on weak trashing boards.
Adventurer should give 3 cards instead of 2 and cost 5, making it a BM focused Smithy variant.
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jonaskoelker

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Re: Any joy in putting Player tokens on 1E cards?
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2017, 03:48:21 am »
0

Adventurer should give 3 cards instead of 2 and cost 5, making it a BM focused Smithy variant.

That's an interesting idea. Let's compare terminal Golds (Qvist rankings in parentheses):
  • Better-Adventurer cycles you quite a bit, and sometimes gives $4+
  • (20) Count alternatively trashes and gains Duchies
  • (31) Legionary sometimes does a strong attack
  • (??) Courtier can be non-terminal, gain gold, +1 buy (but that's not typical in BM/Courtier)
  • (86) Tribute gives $2-4 or cards, meh.
  • (90) Mandarin, meh, anti-cycles you, topdecks some or all of your treasures when you buy it, meh?
  • (96) Harvest gives you $0-4
Maybe Better-Adventurer is somewhere around Courtier? B-A is better for BM, Courtier is better in engines?

Some more numbers: if you add 7 Silver to your starting deck, Better-Adventurer on average gives $4.5, which means that the money density among the other four cards in you hand needs to be at least X where X is slightly less than 1, in order to hit province. With only 3 Silver, you have $13 in 10 treasure cards (+ 3 Estates), or $1.3 per treasure card, for an average value of $3.9, so you need slightly above $1/card in your other four cards in hand (and you already have $13 in 13 cards).

That makes it sound quite strong to me.
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josh56

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Re: Any joy in putting Player tokens on 1E cards?
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2017, 06:24:59 am »
0

That makes it sound quite strong to me.
2 Platinums, 1 Copper, 1 or 2 Adventurers 2.0 and perhaps a sifter and you will get a Colony each turn.
Adventurer is incredibly weak but digging for 3 Treasures would be too strong (and boring).
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E.Honda

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Re: Any joy in putting Player tokens on 1E cards?
« Reply #13 on: October 14, 2017, 10:24:16 am »
0

+Card on Secret Chamber would make it decent. It would also be the only terminal +1 Card.

Don't forget about Ruined Library!
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jonaskoelker

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Re: Any joy in putting Player tokens on 1E cards?
« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2017, 10:26:21 am »
+1

2 Platinums, 1 Copper, 1 or 2 Adventurers 2.0 and perhaps a sifter and you will get a Colony each turn.
Is that not also true of Adventurer1.0, except slightly less so? Throw in a Peddler, or one of your treasures in your starting hand, or Scheme a Warehouse, or [...].

Of course, "3" is the magic number at which you can't buy the biggest green card with a smaller number of basic treasures, so Adv2.0 is a one-card combo in a way that Adv1.0 isn't, but... my guess is that a deck built around abusing Adv1.0 only performs slightly worse than one built around abusing Adv2.0, and not massively worse. Agree/disagree?

Adventurer is incredibly weak but digging for 3 Treasures would be too strong (and boring).
Let's hijack this thread into "how to designed a better but well-balanced Adventurer2.0" until someone tells us to stop :)

If 2 treasures is too weak and 3 is too strong, how about 2.5? ;) i.e. "dig for 3 treasures, choose 2, put them in hand and discard the other cards".

Initially it's a terminal silver. It quickly(?) becomes a terminal gold, with potential to become more than that if you put in some effort.

Also, hey, Moneylender/Adventurer synergy I hadn't yet noticed. ML makes you see Adv more often, and makes it worth more when you do. Adv cycles past ML or picks up the coppers you want to trash. [Uh, ok, ignore the last part.]
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Asper

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Re: Any joy in putting Player tokens on 1E cards?
« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2017, 01:38:53 pm »
+2

Adventurer digging for three Treasures and costing 5$ would make it a terminal Gold+ that wants actual Treasure in your deck. Like Legionary. Both also wear capes.

Eran of Arcadia

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Re: Any joy in putting Player tokens on 1E cards?
« Reply #16 on: October 14, 2017, 01:47:01 pm »
+2

Would that make Cape a specific category of card, the way Trasher and Village Splitter Bunch-of-Actions-Thingy are?
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jonaskoelker

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Re: Any joy in putting Player tokens on 1E cards?
« Reply #17 on: October 15, 2017, 07:21:02 am »
+2

Would that make Cape a specific category of card, the way Trasher and Village Splitter Bunch-of-Actions-Thingy are?
Yes! Bandit is also a Cape.
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