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Author Topic: Maximum Possible VP?  (Read 2056 times)

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Maximum Possible VP?
« on: October 08, 2017, 08:12:44 pm »
+1

What is the maximum possible VP in a standard dominion game?

Using Peasant, Page, Gardens, Kings Court, Donate, Goons, Gardens, Tower, Bridge, Vineyards, I managed to rack up about ~1200 against Lord Rattington. This could be higher including Groundskeeper.

I'll advocate for an arbitrary limit of 20 turns so as to disqualify KC-KC-Monument-Monument-Monument - buy nothing until the end of time, along with max two events.
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Re: Maximum Possible VP?
« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2017, 08:15:47 pm »
+6

You can go infinite with Overlord, Crown, Mandarin, Watchtower, Lurker, Raze and Monument.
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Re: Maximum Possible VP?
« Reply #2 on: October 08, 2017, 08:27:27 pm »
+16

You can go infinite with Overlord, Crown, Mandarin, Watchtower, Lurker, Raze and Monument.

Or with 5 Highways, a Goons and a Trader with Forum in the supply.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2017, 08:28:31 pm by Jimmmmm »
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Re: Maximum Possible VP?
« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2017, 12:30:55 am »
0

Awalclus, can you explain? I'm not seeing it

Highways/Goons/Trader/Forum seems quite ridiculous, it should be stopped when the supply is out of silvers. I suppose it's an extreme case.
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Re: Maximum Possible VP?
« Reply #4 on: October 09, 2017, 05:37:50 am »
+7

Awalclus, can you explain? I'm not seeing it

You have a Mandarin in the trash, your hand is 5x Overlord and 1x Watchtower. Then you can do this:

Play Overlord as Crown
-> Play Overlord as Crown
--> Play Overlord as Crown
---> Play Overlord as Crown
----> Play Overlord as Raze and trash itself
----> Play Overlord as Lurker (you can do this because it was trashed so you get to choose a different card), gain Mandarin from the trash (this topdecks all of the other Overlords because they are Treasures while they are Crowns) and reveal Watchtower to trash the Mandarin again
---> Play Overlord as Lurker (you can do this because it was topdecked), gain Overlord from the trash and reveal Watchtower to topdeck it
--> Play Overlord as Monument
-> Play Overlord as Watchtower

And then you have a Mandarin in the trash and your hand is 5x Overlord and 1x Watchtower, so you can do that again as many times as you want.
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Re: Maximum Possible VP?
« Reply #5 on: October 09, 2017, 10:46:02 am »
+4

Awalclus, can you explain? I'm not seeing it

Highways/Goons/Trader/Forum seems quite ridiculous, it should be stopped when the supply is out of silvers. I suppose it's an extreme case.

You can still prevent the gain of Forum with Trader even without Silvers to gain instead. So you can do this indefinitely.
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Re: Maximum Possible VP?
« Reply #6 on: October 09, 2017, 06:43:49 pm »
+3


If you replace Monument with Tomb, you can do it with one fewer Overlord (also you get 2 VP per iteration).
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Re: Maximum Possible VP?
« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2017, 02:58:07 am »
+4

You can go infinite with Overlord, Crown, Mandarin, Watchtower, Lurker, Raze and Monument.

Or with 5 Highways, a Goons and a Trader with Forum in the supply.

It'd be fun to troll people with this kingdom.  I mean, more fun than other trolling at least.
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Re: Maximum Possible VP?
« Reply #8 on: October 10, 2017, 06:26:40 pm »
0

You can go infinite with Overlord, Crown, Mandarin, Watchtower, Lurker, Raze and Monument.

Or with 5 Highways, a Goons and a Trader with Forum in the supply.

It'd be fun to troll people with this kingdom.  I mean, more fun than other trolling at least.

It could make for interesting games I think. Surely (in 2p) if you win the Highway split you win the game. You'd probably benefit from some more trashing than Trader, but even without you have Forum for sifting, and once you get the combo you almost certainly have an easy 3-pile with Highway, Forum and Silver.
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Re: Maximum Possible VP?
« Reply #9 on: October 10, 2017, 07:34:42 pm »
0

I have another solution.

TL;DR: Use KC/Lurker/Bonfire to Trash and retrieve your cards, getting points from Tomb, while using Villa/Amb to repeatedly return to your Action phase.

Solitaire game, or all opponents have a Lighthouse in play.
Requires King's Court, Lurker, Ambassador, Villa, Bonfire, Tomb.
I also use Grand Market, Highway and +$1 / +1 Card tokens. This was the best way I came up with to get the draw, coins and buys necessary. There are countless variations, but most would require more KCs and Lurkers.

{6 cards} means King's Court*2, Lurker*2, Grand Market, Ambassador.

Your +$1 token is on the Lurker pile; your +1 Card token is on the Grand Market pile.
Your hand and the trash both contain {6 cards}; your hand also contains a Villa.
Your draw and discard piles are empty.
You have a Highway in play.


Play KC > KC > Lurker/Lurker/Grand Market, gaining {6 cards} from the trash and drawing them.
Play Ambassador, returning a Villa to the supply.

Buy Bonfire*3, trashing {6 cards} from play.
Buy Villa.
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Re: Maximum Possible VP?
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2017, 07:04:30 am »
0

The main problem with Ambassador loops is they require all opponents to either have Champion or Lighthouse out so they don't receive the card you're returning instead.
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Re: Maximum Possible VP?
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2017, 10:04:07 pm »
0

The main problem with Ambassador loops is they require all opponents to either have Champion or Lighthouse out so they don't receive the card you're returning instead.

I know; it's covered in the post.
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Re: Maximum Possible VP?
« Reply #12 on: November 20, 2017, 12:48:36 pm »
0

The main problem with Ambassador loops is they require all opponents to either have Champion or Lighthouse out so they don't receive the card you're returning instead.
In a 2-player game, if your opponent's deck is a single Copper, you can Ambassador them a Villa and steal it back with Cutpurse/Thief/Masquerade.
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Re: Maximum Possible VP?
« Reply #13 on: November 20, 2017, 01:28:50 pm »
+2

You can go infinite with Overlord, Crown, Mandarin, Watchtower, Lurker, Raze and Monument.
No you cannot.
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Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

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Re: Maximum Possible VP?
« Reply #14 on: November 20, 2017, 02:08:27 pm »
0

You can go infinite with Overlord, Crown, Mandarin, Watchtower, Lurker, Raze and Monument.
No you cannot.

Why?
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Re: Maximum Possible VP?
« Reply #15 on: November 21, 2017, 05:17:01 am »
+1

You can go infinite with Overlord, Crown, Mandarin, Watchtower, Lurker, Raze and Monument.
No you cannot.

Why?
Can you produce a game log that shows you having an infinite amount of VP?
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Re: Maximum Possible VP?
« Reply #16 on: November 21, 2017, 05:36:42 am »
0

You can go infinite with Overlord, Crown, Mandarin, Watchtower, Lurker, Raze and Monument.
No you cannot.

Why?
Can you produce a game log that shows you having an infinite amount of VP?

I demonstrated the infinite loop here:

Awalclus, can you explain? I'm not seeing it

You have a Mandarin in the trash, your hand is 5x Overlord and 1x Watchtower. Then you can do this:

Play Overlord as Crown
-> Play Overlord as Crown
--> Play Overlord as Crown
---> Play Overlord as Crown
----> Play Overlord as Raze and trash itself
----> Play Overlord as Lurker (you can do this because it was trashed so you get to choose a different card), gain Mandarin from the trash (this topdecks all of the other Overlords because they are Treasures while they are Crowns) and reveal Watchtower to trash the Mandarin again
---> Play Overlord as Lurker (you can do this because it was topdecked), gain Overlord from the trash and reveal Watchtower to topdeck it
--> Play Overlord as Monument
-> Play Overlord as Watchtower

And then you have a Mandarin in the trash and your hand is 5x Overlord and 1x Watchtower, so you can do that again as many times as you want.
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Re: Maximum Possible VP?
« Reply #17 on: November 21, 2017, 06:11:14 am »
0

You can go infinite with Overlord, Crown, Mandarin, Watchtower, Lurker, Raze and Monument.
No you cannot.

Why?
Can you produce a game log that shows you having an infinite amount of VP?

I demonstrated the infinite loop here:

Awalclus, can you explain? I'm not seeing it

You have a Mandarin in the trash, your hand is 5x Overlord and 1x Watchtower. Then you can do this:

Play Overlord as Crown
-> Play Overlord as Crown
--> Play Overlord as Crown
---> Play Overlord as Crown
----> Play Overlord as Raze and trash itself
----> Play Overlord as Lurker (you can do this because it was trashed so you get to choose a different card), gain Mandarin from the trash (this topdecks all of the other Overlords because they are Treasures while they are Crowns) and reveal Watchtower to trash the Mandarin again
---> Play Overlord as Lurker (you can do this because it was topdecked), gain Overlord from the trash and reveal Watchtower to topdeck it
--> Play Overlord as Monument
-> Play Overlord as Watchtower

And then you have a Mandarin in the trash and your hand is 5x Overlord and 1x Watchtower, so you can do that again as many times as you want.
And at which time in this loop does your number of VP change from some finite number to infinite, in your opinion?
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Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

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Re: Maximum Possible VP?
« Reply #18 on: November 21, 2017, 06:41:10 am »
+1

You can go infinite with Overlord, Crown, Mandarin, Watchtower, Lurker, Raze and Monument.
No you cannot.

Why?
Can you produce a game log that shows you having an infinite amount of VP?

I demonstrated the infinite loop here:

Awalclus, can you explain? I'm not seeing it

You have a Mandarin in the trash, your hand is 5x Overlord and 1x Watchtower. Then you can do this:

Play Overlord as Crown
-> Play Overlord as Crown
--> Play Overlord as Crown
---> Play Overlord as Crown
----> Play Overlord as Raze and trash itself
----> Play Overlord as Lurker (you can do this because it was trashed so you get to choose a different card), gain Mandarin from the trash (this topdecks all of the other Overlords because they are Treasures while they are Crowns) and reveal Watchtower to trash the Mandarin again
---> Play Overlord as Lurker (you can do this because it was topdecked), gain Overlord from the trash and reveal Watchtower to topdeck it
--> Play Overlord as Monument
-> Play Overlord as Watchtower

And then you have a Mandarin in the trash and your hand is 5x Overlord and 1x Watchtower, so you can do that again as many times as you want.
And at which time in this loop does your number of VP change from some finite number to infinite, in your opinion?

Which finite number is the largest possible number of VP this loop can produce, in your opinion?
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Re: Maximum Possible VP?
« Reply #19 on: November 21, 2017, 07:07:57 am »
+5

You can go infinite with Overlord, Crown, Mandarin, Watchtower, Lurker, Raze and Monument.
No you cannot.

Why?
Can you produce a game log that shows you having an infinite amount of VP?

I demonstrated the infinite loop here:

Awalclus, can you explain? I'm not seeing it

You have a Mandarin in the trash, your hand is 5x Overlord and 1x Watchtower. Then you can do this:

Play Overlord as Crown
-> Play Overlord as Crown
--> Play Overlord as Crown
---> Play Overlord as Crown
----> Play Overlord as Raze and trash itself
----> Play Overlord as Lurker (you can do this because it was trashed so you get to choose a different card), gain Mandarin from the trash (this topdecks all of the other Overlords because they are Treasures while they are Crowns) and reveal Watchtower to trash the Mandarin again
---> Play Overlord as Lurker (you can do this because it was topdecked), gain Overlord from the trash and reveal Watchtower to topdeck it
--> Play Overlord as Monument
-> Play Overlord as Watchtower

And then you have a Mandarin in the trash and your hand is 5x Overlord and 1x Watchtower, so you can do that again as many times as you want.
And at which time in this loop does your number of VP change from some finite number to infinite, in your opinion?

Can you just say whatever you’re trying to get at instead of making everybody jump through hoops to guess what you mean? Awaclus’s log demonstrates a way to play Mounment an arbitrarily large number of times, which means your VP can be whatever arbitrarily large number you want.

I swear if this is an 8 post long argument that just leads to “haha well TECHNICALLY you meant UNBOUNDED instead of INFINITE” I’m gonna scream.
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Re: Maximum Possible VP?
« Reply #20 on: November 21, 2017, 07:32:53 am »
+3

You can go infinite with Overlord, Crown, Mandarin, Watchtower, Lurker, Raze and Monument.
No you cannot.

Why?
Can you produce a game log that shows you having an infinite amount of VP?

I demonstrated the infinite loop here:

Awalclus, can you explain? I'm not seeing it

You have a Mandarin in the trash, your hand is 5x Overlord and 1x Watchtower. Then you can do this:

Play Overlord as Crown
-> Play Overlord as Crown
--> Play Overlord as Crown
---> Play Overlord as Crown
----> Play Overlord as Raze and trash itself
----> Play Overlord as Lurker (you can do this because it was trashed so you get to choose a different card), gain Mandarin from the trash (this topdecks all of the other Overlords because they are Treasures while they are Crowns) and reveal Watchtower to trash the Mandarin again
---> Play Overlord as Lurker (you can do this because it was topdecked), gain Overlord from the trash and reveal Watchtower to topdeck it
--> Play Overlord as Monument
-> Play Overlord as Watchtower

And then you have a Mandarin in the trash and your hand is 5x Overlord and 1x Watchtower, so you can do that again as many times as you want.
And at which time in this loop does your number of VP change from some finite number to infinite, in your opinion?

Which finite number is the largest possible number of VP this loop can produce, in your opinion?
There is none. What does that have to do with anything?

@Chris is me: Sorry  ;) I cannot resist feeding Awaclus some of his own medicine.
« Last Edit: November 21, 2017, 07:36:18 am by faust »
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Since the number of points is within a constant factor of the number of city quarters, in the long run we can get (4 - ε) ↑↑ n points in n turns for any ε > 0.

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Re: Maximum Possible VP?
« Reply #21 on: November 21, 2017, 08:06:32 am »
+1

I cannot resist feeding Awaclus some of his own medicine.

Would be funnier if I ever actually complained about people using established terms whose meanings are completely clear to everyone.
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Re: Maximum Possible VP?
« Reply #22 on: November 21, 2017, 09:24:40 am »
+1

I cannot resist feeding Awaclus some of his own medicine.

Would be funnier if I ever actually complained about people using established terms whose meanings are completely clear to everyone.
The meaning of the word "infinite" seems unclear at least to you.
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Re: Maximum Possible VP?
« Reply #23 on: November 21, 2017, 10:04:28 am »
0

I cannot resist feeding Awaclus some of his own medicine.

Would be funnier if I ever actually complained about people using established terms whose meanings are completely clear to everyone.

Eeh, I think even then it would still be really unfunny and annoying.
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Re: Maximum Possible VP?
« Reply #24 on: November 21, 2017, 10:47:53 am »
0

The meaning of the word "infinite" seems unclear at least to [Awaclus].
I won't speak on behalf of Awaclus, but the set { n | n is an amount of VP you can have by repeating the loop in question some finite number of times } is infinite. I assume this is what Awaclus means by "going infinite". If I'm right, I see no evidence that his understanding of "infinite" is inaccurate.

The worst that can be said is that the phrase "going infinite" is vague or ambiguous.
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