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Author Topic: 7 copper and 3 estate vs. 50 _____?  (Read 9282 times)

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jimjam

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Re: 7 copper and 3 estate vs. 50 _____?
« Reply #50 on: February 17, 2012, 06:33:15 am »
0

1. 50 hamlets:
a). Any isotropic board; your opponent dies of boredom.
b). Live; ~50 pawns.
Much wore than 50 pawns. These provide no buying power.

Yeah, but there may be some situations with attacks on board that you might be able to use the +actions.
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Ozle

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Re: 7 copper and 3 estate vs. 50 _____?
« Reply #51 on: February 17, 2012, 07:24:21 am »
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Trying to think of non +card, +action and came up with Golem

50 Golem
- Wins with Action cards with +coin (and +Action helpful)
- Loses to Boards with no +coin



How about Jester?
That way you're cycling your deck a bit quick, and can be adding 2 cards to it each?
- Works with 2 cost cards
- Loses to most things

Not, cant make it win


Trader, each turn you are adding 4 silvers to your deck.
So after 10 turns your deck will be 40 traders and 40 silvers. Giving you an average of 5 each hand to buy dutchys
- So would feasibly win on a slow board with Duke
- Loses to fast boards
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def

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Re: 7 copper and 3 estate vs. 50 _____?
« Reply #52 on: February 17, 2012, 07:39:24 am »
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Treasure Map sounds fun.
Wins most kingdoms where Provinces are necessary, but would it lose to HT/Duke? Workshop/SR/Gardens?
Wins pretty much everywhere. Turn 1: trash 2 maps, 4 golds ON TOP OF DECK (this is massively huge). Turn 2:Buy Province. 16 turns for 8 provinces is pretty quick - there's no way that other stuff can compete. Now, can it be beat? Sure, you get the right kind of sick lock and it's going down. But you need something pretty degenerate.
Looks like it can be countered with Minions (and some nice draws, since you need minions for discard which makes it a bit harder to get to 5$ the same turn), at least every other turn. After the first reshuffle (which should happen after ~10+ turns), the TM-player has maybe 40 Golds and 30 Treasure Maps in his deck, which is still good, but you still need 3 Gold out of 4 cards to get a Province, which shouldn't happen every turn.
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DStu

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Re: 7 copper and 3 estate vs. 50 _____?
« Reply #53 on: February 17, 2012, 07:43:37 am »
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Treasure Map sounds fun.
Wins most kingdoms where Provinces are necessary, but would it lose to HT/Duke? Workshop/SR/Gardens?
Wins pretty much everywhere. Turn 1: trash 2 maps, 4 golds ON TOP OF DECK (this is massively huge). Turn 2:Buy Province. 16 turns for 8 provinces is pretty quick - there's no way that other stuff can compete. Now, can it be beat? Sure, you get the right kind of sick lock and it's going down. But you need something pretty degenerate.
Looks like it can be countered with Minions (and some nice draws, since you need minions for discard which makes it a bit harder to get to 5$ the same turn), at least every other turn. After the first reshuffle (which should happen after ~10+ turns), the TM-player has maybe 40 Golds and 30 Treasure Maps in his deck, which is still good, but you still need 3 Gold out of 4 cards to get a Province, which shouldn't happen every turn.

Minion still doesn't counter TM...
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theorel

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Re: 7 copper and 3 estate vs. 50 _____?
« Reply #54 on: February 17, 2012, 07:46:54 am »
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Thought of a couple more that should have been pretty obvious:
1. 50 Ironworks:
a) wins on board with Great Hall, Island, and any other action card at $4 or less.  (2 turn game ftw!)
b) loses on a board with no action cards under 5...(I think all 8 estates + gameover in 8 turns would give the game to Ironworks, but maybe not since the other player just needs a couple duchies to win against that...so maybe any board without alt. VPs under 4 would take the Ironworks player)

2. 50 Workshops
a) Wins with Gardens, Silk Road, and no +buy/gainers.  Gardens will be worth at least provinces by the end, then the Gardens player can take some Silk Roads, which should be good enough for him.  Without +buy, the other player should be unable to catch up.
b) loses like ironworks (no actions under 5) trivially.  But it probably loses on pretty much any board without Gardens, I mean 10 turns of grabbing some under-$4 cards aren't gonna be able to beat much.

ooh, on the subject of Gainers, I'll bet Feast could work similarly. 
(it can get all the duchies in 8 turns, but closing out the game in 26 turns isn't very impressive...so a decent mega-turn, like say native village Bridge could probably take it by buying out the provinces.  On the other hand, just like for Workshops, Gardens makes it nearly unbeatable.  (add in Duke and you've got a pretty sure thing I think)
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theory

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Re: 7 copper and 3 estate vs. 50 _____?
« Reply #55 on: February 17, 2012, 07:59:10 am »
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Does this work?

1) Coppers
2) Duchies and Dukes kingdom
3) Kingdom with Chapel, King's Court and Goons.

I figure it'll be at least ten turns before the copper deck stops drawing $5
This would also lose hardcore to any Kingdom with Swindler in it.
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BaruMonkey

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Re: 7 copper and 3 estate vs. 50 _____?
« Reply #56 on: February 17, 2012, 10:59:18 am »
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Does this work?
1) Coppers
2) Duchies and Dukes kingdom
3) Kingdom with Chapel, King's Court and Goons.
I figure it'll be at least ten turns before the copper deck stops drawing $5

Yes...

If you want a non-basic answer,
A)Quarry
B)A game with gardens, silk road, or duke, particularly a weak one.
C)A KC-Militia-Masq pin.
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ycz6

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Re: 7 copper and 3 estate vs. 50 _____?
« Reply #57 on: February 17, 2012, 01:23:56 pm »
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Sea Hag and Fortune Teller would also wreck the all-copper Duke deck.
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Asklepios

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Re: 7 copper and 3 estate vs. 50 _____?
« Reply #58 on: February 17, 2012, 01:41:47 pm »
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Not so sure about sea hag... even if you open with Sea Hag/silver, then get it turn 3, there's still two turns when the copper deck is buying duchies, then one turn not, then one or more turns buying them again, etc. Assuming the copper deck buys silver when it has the curse in hand, I still think it will outpace the sea hag deck in the duchies and dukes race, especially as sea hag isn't speeding the conventional deck towards dukes or duchies.
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def

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Re: 7 copper and 3 estate vs. 50 _____?
« Reply #59 on: February 17, 2012, 02:19:44 pm »
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Treasure Map sounds fun.
Wins most kingdoms where Provinces are necessary, but would it lose to HT/Duke? Workshop/SR/Gardens?
Wins pretty much everywhere. Turn 1: trash 2 maps, 4 golds ON TOP OF DECK (this is massively huge). Turn 2:Buy Province. 16 turns for 8 provinces is pretty quick - there's no way that other stuff can compete. Now, can it be beat? Sure, you get the right kind of sick lock and it's going down. But you need something pretty degenerate.
Looks like it can be countered with Minions (and some nice draws, since you need minions for discard which makes it a bit harder to get to 5$ the same turn), at least every other turn. After the first reshuffle (which should happen after ~10+ turns), the TM-player has maybe 40 Golds and 30 Treasure Maps in his deck, which is still good, but you still need 3 Gold out of 4 cards to get a Province, which shouldn't happen every turn.
Minion still doesn't counter TM...
What? ...
- A: Play Treasure Maps, gaining Gold on top of the deck and drawing them for the next turn hand
- B: Play Minion to force the opponent to discard the Gold and get a hand with 4 Treasure Maps
- A: Play Treasure Maps ...
I don't see what's wrong with that in this situation.
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BaruMonkey

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Re: 7 copper and 3 estate vs. 50 _____?
« Reply #60 on: February 17, 2012, 03:27:25 pm »
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Treasure Map sounds fun.
Wins most kingdoms where Provinces are necessary, but would it lose to HT/Duke? Workshop/SR/Gardens?
Wins pretty much everywhere. Turn 1: trash 2 maps, 4 golds ON TOP OF DECK (this is massively huge). Turn 2:Buy Province. 16 turns for 8 provinces is pretty quick - there's no way that other stuff can compete. Now, can it be beat? Sure, you get the right kind of sick lock and it's going down. But you need something pretty degenerate.
Looks like it can be countered with Minions (and some nice draws, since you need minions for discard which makes it a bit harder to get to 5$ the same turn), at least every other turn. After the first reshuffle (which should happen after ~10+ turns), the TM-player has maybe 40 Golds and 30 Treasure Maps in his deck, which is still good, but you still need 3 Gold out of 4 cards to get a Province, which shouldn't happen every turn.
Minion still doesn't counter TM...
What? ...
- A: Play Treasure Maps, gaining Gold on top of the deck and drawing them for the next turn hand
- B: Play Minion to force the opponent to discard the Gold and get a hand with 4 Treasure Maps
- A: Play Treasure Maps ...
I don't see what's wrong with that in this situation.
I think the main trouble will be that it would take a while for the minions to kick in, and by that point it would be too late to catch up.
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blueblimp

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Re: 7 copper and 3 estate vs. 50 _____?
« Reply #61 on: February 17, 2012, 04:46:55 pm »
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Does this work?

1) Coppers
2) Duchies and Dukes kingdom
3) Kingdom with Chapel, King's Court and Goons.

I figure it'll be at least ten turns before the copper deck stops drawing $5
This would also lose hardcore to any Kingdom with Swindler in it.

I think if Gardens is there, 50 Copper should survive Swindler. 4 coppers + 1 curse is still enough to buy a Gardens, and by the end of the game, each of those Gardens is going to be worth at least a Province.

Edit: This can even be simulated. With the bots below, 50 Copper/Gardens wins 90.5/8.5 over Double Swindler on Ultimate Simulation.

Further Edit: Actually even 50 Copper/Duke wins 64.4/32.5 over Double Swindler. I included a bad $5 (Saboteur) in the kingdom so that the duchies/dukes can be swindled into non-VP.

50 Copper/Gardens bot:
Code: [Select]
<player name="50 Copper/Gardens"
 author="blueblimp"
 description="Starting with 50 copper is pretty good for a gardens rush.">
 <type name="SingleCard"/>
 <type name="Fun"/>
 <type name="Province"/>
 <type name="Bot"/>
 <type name="TwoPlayer"/>
 <type name="UserCreated"/>
  <start_state>
    <hand contents=""/>
    <discard contents=""/>
    <drawdeck contents="50 Copper" shuffle="true"/>
  </start_state>
   <buy name="Gardens"/>
   <buy name="Duchy"/>
   <buy name="Estate"/>
</player>

Double Swindler bot (does better than single Swindler):
Code: [Select]
<player name="Double Swindler"
 author="blueblimp"
 description="An attempted counter to the 50 Copper/Gardens strategy.">
 <type name="SingleCard"/>
 <type name="Fun"/>
 <type name="Province"/>
 <type name="Attacking"/>
 <type name="Bot"/>
 <type name="TwoPlayer"/>
 <type name="UserCreated"/>
   <buy name="Province">
      <condition>
         <left type="getTotalMoney"/>
         <operator type="greaterThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="18.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Duchy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="4.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Estate">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Gold"/>
   <buy name="Duchy">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
         <operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="6.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Swindler">
      <condition>
         <left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Swindler"/>
         <operator type="smallerThan" />
         <right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
      </condition>
   </buy>
   <buy name="Silver"/>
</player>

50 Coppers/Duke bot:
Code: [Select]
<player name="50 Copper/Duke"
 author="blueblimp"
 description="Starting with 50 copper is pretty good for a duke rush.XXXXTo make things fair against Swindler, ensure there is a bad $5 on the board (e.g. Saboteur).">
 <type name="SingleCard"/>
 <type name="Fun"/>
 <type name="Province"/>
 <type name="Bot"/>
 <type name="TwoPlayer"/>
 <type name="UserCreated"/>
  <start_state>
    <hand contents=""/>
    <discard contents=""/>
    <drawdeck contents="50 Copper" shuffle="true"/>
  </start_state>
  <board contents="Saboteur" bane="null"/>
   <buy name="Duchy"/>
   <buy name="Duke"/>
   <buy name="Estate"/>
</player>

Unfortunately, trying to start with 50 Dukes crashes the simulator. =) (It seems to not like starting with more than 8.)
« Last Edit: February 17, 2012, 05:04:15 pm by blueblimp »
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def

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Re: 7 copper and 3 estate vs. 50 _____?
« Reply #62 on: February 17, 2012, 05:55:44 pm »
0

Treasure Map sounds fun.
Wins most kingdoms where Provinces are necessary, but would it lose to HT/Duke? Workshop/SR/Gardens?
Wins pretty much everywhere. Turn 1: trash 2 maps, 4 golds ON TOP OF DECK (this is massively huge). Turn 2:Buy Province. 16 turns for 8 provinces is pretty quick - there's no way that other stuff can compete. Now, can it be beat? Sure, you get the right kind of sick lock and it's going down. But you need something pretty degenerate.
Looks like it can be countered with Minions (and some nice draws, since you need minions for discard which makes it a bit harder to get to 5$ the same turn), at least every other turn. After the first reshuffle (which should happen after ~10+ turns), the TM-player has maybe 40 Golds and 30 Treasure Maps in his deck, which is still good, but you still need 3 Gold out of 4 cards to get a Province, which shouldn't happen every turn.
Minion still doesn't counter TM...
What? ...
- A: Play Treasure Maps, gaining Gold on top of the deck and drawing them for the next turn hand
- B: Play Minion to force the opponent to discard the Gold and get a hand with 4 Treasure Maps
- A: Play Treasure Maps ...
I don't see what's wrong with that in this situation.
I think the main trouble will be that it would take a while for the minions to kick in, and by that point it would be too late to catch up.
That's probably not what he meant, but anyway, let it take 5 turns, by which you may have 2 or 3 minions, to set up, and play a minion for discard the first time at turn 6. Your opponent at this point already has...2 Provinces. Wow.
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Markov Chain

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Re: 7 copper and 3 estate vs. 50 _____?
« Reply #63 on: February 17, 2012, 10:01:29 pm »
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50 Remakes.

Loses on a board with Duchy the only $5; after your tenth turn, you will have 30 Remakes, 8 Duchies, and up to 10 Coppers if you want them, and you still won't be able to do much.

Wins with Duke and any other $5; you can three-pile on your twelfth turn without any help, and even if your opponent buys a few Duchies, you'll have most of the Duchies, all the Dukes, and end the game sooner.

Wins even faster with Ill-Gotten Gains; ten IGG, ten Curses, and eight Duchies will be gone in nine turns at most.
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ehunt

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Re: 7 copper and 3 estate vs. 50 _____?
« Reply #64 on: February 18, 2012, 03:08:32 pm »
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1. apprentice?  wins with sea hag on board: can't play her till turn five, but then reliably plays her every turn and trashes any curses he gets. loses to jack, chancellor/stash, etc on bigger boards.

2. oasis? usually wins, say with minion on the board, seems doomed with militia on board.

3. The trader idea is cool. Pedantic nitpick: it can actually gain five silvers a turn for the first eight turns (at which point the silver pile is empty), which is slightly preferable to four for the first ten because it chokes off the opponent's access to the silver pile faster.

At this point, can the trader player win? If there's gardens with absolutely no helper, the trader player may be able to buy a gardens or two (but no more) which should be worth at least 7 or 8. With tunnels on the board to cover the bad turns, the trader player might could pull it off. But it's a stretch (islands seem too strong for the non-trader player three-piling before the trader player has a chance).
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jonts26

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Re: 7 copper and 3 estate vs. 50 _____?
« Reply #65 on: February 18, 2012, 08:40:29 pm »
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1. apprentice?  wins with sea hag on board: can't play her till turn five, but then reliably plays her every turn and trashes any curses he gets. loses to jack, chancellor/stash, etc on bigger boards.

Why can't you play the hag till turn 5? Apprentice can just keep eating though as much deck as you need each turn. Should be playable every turn
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dondon151

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Re: 7 copper and 3 estate vs. 50 _____?
« Reply #66 on: February 18, 2012, 08:44:16 pm »
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You need to buy the Sea Hag first.
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jonts26

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Re: 7 copper and 3 estate vs. 50 _____?
« Reply #67 on: February 18, 2012, 08:47:04 pm »
+1

You need to buy the Sea Hag first.

Oh right I keep forgetting you need money first
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ycz6

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Re: 7 copper and 3 estate vs. 50 _____?
« Reply #68 on: February 25, 2012, 08:28:34 pm »
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Simulations show that letting the 50 Copper/Quarry Duke deck buy Silvers with <5 until the game is close to ending ups its winrate a ton, such that it wrecks every built-in BM/X except Ghost Ship, and beats most other engines and rushes. Of course, the built-in bots don't expect the opponent to be able to buy Duchies on Turn 1, so don't read too much into this.
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brian22

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Re: 7 copper and 3 estate vs. 50 _____?
« Reply #69 on: March 02, 2012, 09:31:55 am »
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1. colonies
a. Every game
b. heavy cursing and VP tokens, maybe

 :)
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Tables

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Re: 7 copper and 3 estate vs. 50 _____?
« Reply #70 on: March 02, 2012, 09:59:59 am »
+1

I've been thinking a bit about Adventurer with this... can it ever win? I'm thinking of a FG/Venture kingdom it might just compete in.

Turn 1+2: Buy copper
Turn 3+4: Buy FG
Turn 5-7: Buy Venture with $5, FG with $4 or less.
Turn 8+: Buy Gardens with $4, FG with less?

I'm not really sure, and it doesn't seem like it'll empty another pile quickly enough, but assuming there're no good Garden enablers, it might beat the standard opening?
Adventurer should easily lose any board without FG and Gardens, I think.

Another card I've consdered was Goons. The strategy basically being, buy out the Native villages, then the Hamlets, then the Crossroads. Should be pretty quick and leave you with easily 100+vps, generally winning an otherwise dull board. OTOH a game with no $2's and perhaps I dunno, Watchtower/JoAT/Library will probably be a loss for the Goons... but it's hard to say.
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Re: 7 copper and 3 estate vs. 50 _____?
« Reply #71 on: March 02, 2012, 11:47:28 am »
0

Loan seems almost balanced, winning and losing in a wide range of circumstances.

1) Loan
2) Kingdoms with strong non-terminals, alternate VP, or treasures costing up to $5.  IGG, Hunting Party (though be careful about reshuffles), Duke, maybe Venture, Laboratory, or Cache
3) Kingdoms where there's a strong engine, good big money support (Smithy), or compelling $6+ cards
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Re: 7 copper and 3 estate vs. 50 _____?
« Reply #72 on: March 04, 2012, 01:22:31 pm »
0

would this work?
a) posession
b) colony + heavy ambassador
c) duke/duchy
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