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[BaruMonkey]

A friend posed (a version of) this question to me, and I have a couple ideas, but I want to hear what you all think:

Setup: In a 2-player game, one player starts with 7 coppers and 3 estates, and the other starts with 50 copies of any single card. The challenge is to come up with:

A) What card that is,
B) A kingdom in which it will usually win, AND
C) A kingdom in which it will usually lose.

[jonts26]

A) Duchy
B) Any Kingdom without alt VPs
C) Some heavy goons engine kingdom.

[WanderingWinder]

If you want a non-basic answer,
A)Quarry
B)A game with gardens, silk road, or duke, particularly a weak one.
C)A KC-Militia-Masq pin.

[Axxle]

A) Grand Market
B) Any kingdom
C) No kingdom

edit: Was the point of this to come up with a balanced starting point? If so I failed.

[BaruMonkey]

If you want a non-basic answer,
A)Quarry
B)A game with gardens, silk road, or duke, particularly a weak one.
C)A KC-Militia-Masq pin.

I don't think it would win with the pin board -- It starts with 50 quarries, so it won't see any of those cards that it buys until turn 11, and even then they won't come up together.

[BaruMonkey]

A) Grand Market
B) Any kingdom
C) No kingdom

edit: Was the point of this to come up with a balanced starting point? If so I failed.

I'm not sure if "balanced" is necessary. Actually, I'm asking for 2 boards, one unbalanced for and one unbalanced against the "sea of X" deck. "No kingdom" is not a valid answer

[Axxle]

A friend posed (a version of) this question to me, and I have a couple ideas, but I want to hear what you all think:

Setup: In a 2-player game, one player starts with 7 coppers and 3 estates, and the other starts with 50 copies of any single card. The challenge is to come up with:

A) What card that is,
B) A kingdom in which it will usually win, AND
C) A kingdom in which it will usually lose.

I just realized that B and C are ambiguous.  Do you mean kingdoms in which the "sea of X" will win/lose or kingdoms in which the normal player will win/lose?

[WanderingWinder]

If you want a non-basic answer,
A)Quarry
B)A game with gardens, silk road, or duke, particularly a weak one.
C)A KC-Militia-Masq pin.

I don't think it would win with the pin board -- It starts with 50 quarries, so it won't see any of those cards that it buys until turn 11, and even then they won't come up together.

Yes, that's the point.

[BaruMonkey]

I just realized that B and C are ambiguous.  Do you mean kingdoms in which the "sea of X" will win/lose or kingdoms in which the normal player will win/lose?

Isn't that synonymous, since when one wins the other loses? Let me try to explain in a bit more detail, in case it is ambiguous...

Set up one game in which:
- One player starts with exactly 7 coppers and 3 estates, and the other player starts with exactly 50 copies of any one card of your choice and no other cards.
- There are 10 kingdom cards available, of your choice.
- The player who started with exactly 7 coppers and 3 estates will win more than 50% of the time.

Then, set up one game in which:
- One player starts with exactly 7 coppers and 3 estates, and the other player starts with exactly 50 copies of the same card as the one chosen above.
- There are 10 (probably different) kingdom cards available, of your choice.
- The player who started with exactly 7 coppers and 3 estates will lose more than 50% of the time.

[jonts26]

I think what WW meant was that the 50 Quarries would win the Gardens/SR/Duke game and lose the pin game. He ordered them backwards from what I did, but your wording was ambiguous in the question as which one was which. Though I don't know why they have to be quarries, coppers or talismans would work just as well.

[Axxle]

I think what WW meant was that the 50 Quarries would win the Gardens/SR/Duke game and lose the pin game. He ordered them backwards from what I did, but your wording was ambiguous in the question as which one was which. Though I don't know why they have to be quarries, coppers or talismans would work just as well.

I think Talismans might empty the board too quickly to set up the Masq pin, although Quarry could be replaced by copper.

[BaruMonkey]

I think what WW meant was that the 50 Quarries would win the Gardens/SR/Duke game and lose the pin game. He ordered them backwards from what I did, but your wording was ambiguous in the question as which one was which. Though I don't know why they have to be quarries, coppers or talismans would work just as well.

Yeah, I get it now. I got them backwards because he mentioned quarries, which would allow it to buy any single action whenever it wants.

So, just thinking through what he actually meant... it buys an alt victory card (or duchy or estate) every turn, ending with 3 piles without ever gaining more than 1 card per turn. That would take 8+8+8=24 turns to end the game. I guess if there's a particularly crappy board, the "normal" player wouldn't be able to match it on points.

[WanderingWinder]

I think what WW meant was that the 50 Quarries would win the Gardens/SR/Duke game and lose the pin game. He ordered them backwards from what I did, but your wording was ambiguous in the question as which one was which. Though I don't know why they have to be quarries, coppers or talismans would work just as well.

Coppers are a basic card. The point of my post was to make it be not a basic card, because, well, it's a lot easier with the 'basics'.
Talismans DON'T work as well, as you can end the game in around 8 turns (6 to empty kingdom piles, 2 to buy enough VP). Ok, I guess you need cheap enough piles available, so you can designed some constrained kingdom where this won't win, but it will be difficult.

[WanderingWinder]

So, just thinking through what he actually meant... it buys an alt victory card (or duchy or estate) every turn, ending with 3 piles without ever gaining more than 1 card per turn. That would take 8+8+8=24 turns to end the game. I guess if there's a particularly crappy board, the "normal" player wouldn't be able to match it on points.

Duchy/Duke will be enough points to overcome, as will duchy/SR, as will 6+ point gardens. You need something pretty strong (eh, maybe just colonies on a decent board) to overcome that.

[jonts26]

I think what WW meant was that the 50 Quarries would win the Gardens/SR/Duke game and lose the pin game. He ordered them backwards from what I did, but your wording was ambiguous in the question as which one was which. Though I don't know why they have to be quarries, coppers or talismans would work just as well.

Yeah, I get it now. I got them backwards because he mentioned quarries, which would allow it to buy any single action whenever it wants.

So, just thinking through what he actually meant... it buys an alt victory card (or duchy or estate) every turn, ending with 3 piles without ever gaining more than 1 card per turn. That would take 8+8+8=24 turns to end the game. I guess if there's a particularly crappy board, the "normal" player wouldn't be able to match it on points.

Except by turn 11-12 I will have 7 duchies and 4 dukes which is enough to overcome all 8 provinces. So it doesn't even need to be a crappy board. Just nothing super powered. After that I can take all the time i need to drain piles.

EDIT: What WW said.

[ehunt]

Can the bishop do it? You get 3 VP a turn, so the opponent must be able to get all eight provinces in <= 16 turns, but is aided in doing so by your bishop. I think big money might be able to do this with the trashing help, in which case this is a non-solution, but not sure. (The bishop player might also buy coppers, not clear if that makes his strategy any better. Presumably he still bishops bishops every turn on his second shuffle, occasionally picking up estates? If the game isn't over by his third shuffle, he wins anyway.)

[Ozle]

Minion?

Buy a plus buy card with your first hand, then cycle entire deck each turn.
Market would also be another easy answer

[BaruMonkey]

Minion?

Buy a plus buy card with your first hand, then cycle entire deck each turn.
Market would also be another easy answer

But what boards exist where they would lose? That's the challenge

btw, two of my thoughts (for the 50-card deck) were Great Hall and Pawn. I haven't really thought much about them yet, though. I don't think 7c3e can beat 50 pawns, but there may be a chance.

[Ozle]

Aahh, right i getcha

So, 50 nobles. 100 vps with chance to draw entire deck each time, so in eight turns it can buy a province each turn putting a clock on it.

So you'd need a colony kingdom. And a fast enough board to buy them all out, so would need bridge i wold expect.

[jonts26]

Minion?

Buy a plus buy card with your first hand, then cycle entire deck each turn.
Market would also be another easy answer

But what boards exist where they would lose? That's the challenge

btw, two of my thoughts (for the 50-card deck) were Great Hall and Pawn. I haven't really thought much about them yet, though. I don't think 7c3e can beat 50 pawns, but there may be a chance.

Great hall can probably beat most kingdoms. It's basically like starting with nothing and 50vp chips, you just need to avoid terminal draw. It would probably lose to the KC/Masq/Goons pin.

I can't think of any way 50 pawns could lose to 7c3e. You can always use the pawn for +card/action so you can get to your opening purchases right away and you can in the early game at least match any buy the copper/estate guy makes and then guarantee a play of it next turn.

[BaruMonkey]

I can't think of any way 50 pawns could lose to 7c3e.

This was the original challenge my friend posed to me. My best guess so far (besides "no, it's impossible") has been something with Mountebank (perhaps with a 5/2 opening guaranteed), since the pawns wouldn't be able to block subsequent attacks like the smaller deck would.

[jonts26]

I can't think of any way 50 pawns could lose to 7c3e.

This was the original challenge my friend posed to me. My best guess so far (besides "no, it's impossible") has been something with Mountebank (perhaps with a 5/2 opening guaranteed), since the pawns wouldn't be able to block subsequent attacks like the smaller deck would.

Pawn guy can also open MB and while he can't block the attack while the other guy can, he is still guaranteed to play it starting turn 2 and probably 7 or 8 turns afterwards (until 3 hits of the opponents MB, and even then still fairly likely to play it most turns). You can expect at least 3 of those to hit.

[O]

I can't think of any way 50 pawns could lose to 7c3e.

This was the original challenge my friend posed to me. My best guess so far (besides "no, it's impossible") has been something with Mountebank (perhaps with a 5/2 opening guaranteed), since the pawns wouldn't be able to block subsequent attacks like the smaller deck would.

Pawns cycle through to get mountebank turn one then play it every turn following..

On the other hand, if we allow outside circumstances the 50 pawn player would resign on isotropic after giving his hand carpal tunnel by turn 6...

[WrathOfGlod]

What about 50 mountebanks:
Probably wins on a board where bm is dominant (end game in 18 turns with 8 estates and 10 of some $2 action)
Loses on most boards, especially boards with chapel/some power combo

[Lrrr]

Treasure Map sounds fun.
Wins most kingdoms where Provinces are necessary, but would it lose to HT/Duke? Workshop/SR/Gardens?